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Robin Unger

The vanishing pool of blood

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Strange also that Couch did not film it or asked Alyea to film the liquid or whatever it is. How about Hood? Do we have any photos taken by him on that day?

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8 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

Strange also that Couch did not film it or asked Alyea to film the liquid or whatever it is. How about Hood? Do we have any photos taken by him on that day?

Hi Denis, It’s all in the interview.

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This is one of the many mysteries of the JFK assassination that fascinate me.

It's my understanding that Jean Hill did not see the actual "sno-cone" but said she later heard that the red liquid she said she saw on the ground had been identified as sno-cone syrup. I believe Hugh Aynesworth is the reporter that "confirmed" this particular fact, if memory serves.

I wonder if this pool of blood had anything to do with the rumors that a Secret Service agent had been killed, and/or A.J. Millican's statement of seeing someone hit in the leg?

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5 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

This is one of the many mysteries of the JFK assassination that fascinate me.

It's my understanding that Jean Hill did not see the actual "sno-cone" but said she later heard that the red liquid she said she saw on the ground had been identified as sno-cone syrup. I believe Hugh Aynesworth is the reporter that "confirmed" this particular fact, if memory serves.

I wonder if this pool of blood had anything to do with the rumors that a Secret Service agent had been killed, and/or A.J. Millican's statement of seeing someone hit in the leg?

 

I spoke with Malcolm Couch a few years before he died.  He told me it wasn't a pool of blood he saw that day.  It was brain matter.

Ken

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1 hour ago, Ken Rheberg said:

 

I spoke with Malcolm Couch a few years before he died.  He told me it wasn't a pool of blood he saw that day.  It was brain matter.

Ken

Interesting. Did that seem credible to you? Did Couch seem credible himself?

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I ask the same questions as Danny Zartman.

 

How in the world could this red liquid be brain matter?

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7 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Interesting. Did that seem credible to you? Did Couch seem credible himself?

 

I had no reason to question Malcolm Couch's credibility or doubt his sincerity.  His passion was his Christian faith.  He was a pastor for many years, an author of numerous books on Bible prophecy, and founded Tyndale Theological Seminary.  At the time I spoke to him, he was not doing well physically and was using a walker.

I've heard over the years, many times, that he had seen a pool of blood in Dealey Plaza.  So when he told me that this wasn't accurate, I was quite surprised to say the least.  But he was adamant that it was not a pool of blood.  It was brain matter.  He then suggested that I check out his oral history at the Sixth Floor Museum.  "It's all in there," he said.

When you review his testimony before the Warren Commission, you'll see that he never calls it a pool of blood.  Just one reference to blood.  It's Warren Commission attorney David Belin who, in his questioning of Couch, characterizes it himself as a pool of blood and uses the term twice.

Ken

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ken Rheberg said:

 

I had no reason to question Malcolm Couch's credibility or doubt his sincerity.  His passion was his Christian faith.  He was a pastor for many years, an author of numerous books on Bible prophecy, and founded Tyndale Theological Seminary.  At the time I spoke to him, he was not doing well physically and was using a walker.

I've heard over the years, many times, that he had seen a pool of blood in Dealey Plaza.  So when he told me that this wasn't accurate, I was quite surprised to say the least.  But he was adamant that it was not a pool of blood.  It was brain matter.  He then suggested that I check out his oral history at the Sixth Floor Museum.  "It's all in there," he said.

When you review his testimony before the Warren Commission, you'll see that he never calls it a pool of blood.  Just one reference to blood.  It's Warren Commission attorney David Belin who, in his questioning of Couch, characterizes it himself as a pool of blood and uses the term twice.

Ken

 

 

I thought there was a story of someone emerging from the SW corner of the TSBD with head fragments and a second pool of blood on the sidewalk at that location; thus the “additional” element to the video title. There is also some blurry video of that. 

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9 hours ago, Ken Rheberg said:

 

I had no reason to question Malcolm Couch's credibility or doubt his sincerity.  His passion was his Christian faith.  He was a pastor for many years, an author of numerous books on Bible prophecy, and founded Tyndale Theological Seminary.  At the time I spoke to him, he was not doing well physically and was using a walker.

I've heard over the years, many times, that he had seen a pool of blood in Dealey Plaza.  So when he told me that this wasn't accurate, I was quite surprised to say the least.  But he was adamant that it was not a pool of blood.  It was brain matter.  He then suggested that I check out his oral history at the Sixth Floor Museum.  "It's all in there," he said.

When you review his testimony before the Warren Commission, you'll see that he never calls it a pool of blood.  Just one reference to blood.  It's Warren Commission attorney David Belin who, in his questioning of Couch, characterizes it himself as a pool of blood and uses the term twice.

Ken

 

 

Are we talking about the same pool of blood Jerry Coley reports seeing?

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20 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Are we talking about the same pool of blood Jerry Coley reports seeing?

 

Malcolm Couch has two oral histories archived at the Sixth Floor Museum.  One was taken in 1989, the other in 2007.  The latter addresses, in detail, the pool of blood issue .  A 40 page PDF document of this history can be obtained for a relatively small charge.  I don't have my copy yet, but I plan to obtain one soon.  I hope it clears up many questions that you and others have about this subject.  It's extremely important, in my opinion.  I don't believe David Belin did a very good job of making clear for all of us down through the years what Couch was trying to say.

 

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1 minute ago, Ken Rheberg said:

 

Malcolm Couch has two oral histories archived at the Sixth Floor Museum.  One was taken in 1989, the other in 2007.  The latter addresses, in detail, the pool of blood issue .  A 40 page PDF document of this history can be obtained for a relatively small charge.  I don't have my copy yet, but I plan to obtain one soon.  I hope it clears up many questions that you and others have about this subject.  It's extremely important, in my opinion.  I don't believe David Belin did a very good job of making clear for all of us down through the years what Couch was trying to say.

 

Thanks for the information. I didn't see Couch's oral history on the Sixth Floor Museum's YouTube channel. I will definitely look into getting a pdf of his interview soon as well.

I am very curious, because from the WC testimony, he seems clear that it was fresh blood. From what I understand, brain fluid is closer to appearing like water than blood. And it's hard to imagine freshly spilled brains without an obvious body around.

I'm not 100% clear on the location of what Couch saw as well.

It's a fascinating topic, this pool, or pools, or trail, of blood or brains

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Here's my transcript of the first part of the Jerry Coley interview linked above:

Quote

I was in the advertising department. I usually got there about 8 o clock. We had a little cafeteria, and on Friday I would go down and my cohort that handles food and drug advertising with me, Don Campbell, he and I usually would meet for coffee. And on Fridays, usually Jack Ruby would come in to place his weekend advertising, and he would join us for coffee, and that Friday morning he did, on November 22, about 8 o clock or so. 

When I got there he was in the cafeteria with Don Campbell, they were having coffee. I sat down with them, and Jack was his usual self. He liked to talk about his strippers and how tough he was, and he flashed his brass knuckles that he had in his suit coat, and bragged about toughness. But he usually came in and he placed his weekend advertising on Friday with our department for his strip joint there, along with another nightclub he owned, and he always paid in cash, and he kept the money rolled up in his pocket, and, uh, he always bragged about the money he had and about the gun he carried under the front seat of his car, but, it was a normal morning. And I left the coffee shop I guess and came on in to my office and left my office about 9 o’clock to go out and make my advertising calls.

I came back into the office probably sometime after 11 o’clock, and Jack Ruby was still sitting at John Newman’s desk, who sat directly behind me, John handled the downtown advertising where his club was.

About 11:30 or so I got Charlie Mulkey, one of my advertising friends, and we went down to the personnel office to redraw some parking spaces they were doing that day, and then walked three and a half blocks over to try and get a good spot on the corner of Main and Houston to watch the parade as it come by and turn there.

We couldn’t get that spot on the corner of Main and Elm, it was already too crowded, so we moved down about half way down Houston street, from the corner of Main, between Main and Elm. Front of the county jail there, and they were just unloading a No Parking sign set in a big concrete bowl there, so I got up on that concrete so I could see over the crowd, and had a good view.

And just about a few minutes, about 12:15, 12:20 by then, across the street on Houston, on the sidewalk, in front of this reflecting pool that’s there, a man had an epileptic fit. And I remember him writhing around on the ground, and just almost out of nowhere, here come this ambulance, turn the corner off, loaded the man in there, and then took off down Houston street, over the Houston street viaduct toward Methodist hospital, we supposed. And the thing I remember so much about it now, then was that of all the documentaries that we’ve seen on JFK that I have, and the shows, there’s only been one that depicted that thing that happened and I was really impressed by that particular show.

But in any case, right after that happened, within seemed like two or three minutes, the parade came, and passed by in front, and I remember Jackie waving and seeing the president.

And as they turned the corner on Elm street, in front of us was just a half a block down, and started down that Elm street in front of the book depository, we heard all these noises, and I couldn’t tell you to this day, I couldn’t then were there was one shot, ten, or five or whatever. It was just an echoing noise. To me it was no definite gunshots and I did not recall any three shots, it was echoing so.

In any case, I crossed Houston street between some parade cars, over to that reflecting pool, and I could see people running down towards the grassy knoll and the railroad tracks, so I started down the esplanade which part of it runs parallel to the book depository down towards that fence. And down when I got nearly to the fence, a policeman in brown, we called them county Mounties in Dallas, at that time stopped me. And he had a shotgun. And Charlie was behind me, and he said “Where do you guys think you’re going?” and we said “We’re going back to where all these people are running,” which was back towards the fence and the parking lot, or that area on top of the grassy knoll. He told us to get the hell out of there, so Charlie I guess left me at that point. I don’t know where he went, but I went ahead and started down that esplanade, made a left, started down towards the side, the picket fence corner there, and at the top of those steps that go down the grassy knoll. And it was there that I saw people laying all over and the median grass between there, couple motorcycles up on the, laying on the side of the hill, people and police running up towards the picket fence, to the right of me. I looked down at the top of those steps before you take the top step, there was a huge puddle that I thought was blood.

So, I walked on down, around it, down the steps, and I saw people in the median between Main and Elm, laying on the grass, people crying, I looked back and I could still see people headed all around the grassy knoll, in that area. And no one was going towards that book depository, that, no one. There was no one headed in that direction. So I rushed on back to the News to see if I could find out something. And as I come in the door, by then it must have been quarter to one, maybe. Maybe a little bit later than that.

Jack Ruby was still at Newman’s desk. And I said to someone that Connelly might have been shot, and maybe even the president. I remember Jack Ruby jumped up then and ran back to our corner office. Dick Jefferies at that time was at that time our promotion director. He ran in to his secretary’s desk there. He could look out the window directly down at that assassination site. And I remember him on the phone crying and talking.

Well, about that time I saw Jim Hood, who was our ad department photographer, and I went up to him and I said “Jim, I think I’ve seen some blood or something down there where all this stuff took place.” And he said “Well let me get my camera, we’ll go back down there.” So he got his camera and we went, rushed back down there. It was probably 1 or a little after by then. And everyone was gathered up around the book depository then.

We came up to this blood area, which now was all crinkly, like it had coagulated a little. And he put his little pinky on his right hand into that, and he stuck his tongue to it, and he said, “Why, that’s blood.” And he made a photo with his reflex camera.

We came on back to the News. And of course, we heard then that the president had been shot. And all this, so.

It was Sunday, I guess, when I was home then watching television as they were getting ready to transfer Oswald from the city jail to the county jail. And when Jack Ruby stepped forward, with that hat on he had, and that dark suit, I recognized him instantly as he was shot him [sic].

Well, I come into the office Monday morning, and Hugh Aynesworth who was a news reporter was there talking to Don. And Don turned around and said “Coley there was at breakfast with me, and me and Jack, and we all sat there and talked that morning.” And I said “Let’s go back over Jim, this morning and then look at that blood.” We went back over and then there was no stain that we found anywhere. And it was like someone had cleaned it off very thoroughly. And then I got busy and on my day of work that I had, nothing else happened until Tuesday.

The next morning when I came in and someone told me that Hugh Aynesworth in our Bulldog edition, which is printed up back, of back then about 9’o’clock, and they were printed for newsstands sale and downtown honor box sales. There was a story written by Hugh that said “Coley at the News had visited with Jack Ruby that morning.” Someone then showed me that edition. I looked at it and I said “Wow.”

It wasn’t thirty minutes later while I was preparing to go out, my wife called. And she was hysterical on the phone. And she said “I just received two threatening phone calls. They both have said if you don’t shut your mouth, they’re gonna kill me and our two kids,” a boy and a girl I had at the time. And I said, “What are you talking about?” She said “That’s what they said.” I said, “Ah, it’s some whack. I don’t know anything, I haven’t said anything.”

So I made my morning run and I got back probably about 10:30 that morning. At that time as I sat down to begin working on my ads, two men came up in dark suits. They kind of flashed a green ID card and said “We’re the FBI. Are you ‘Coley at the News’ that was mentioned in a story this morning?” And I said, “Well, I’m Jerry Coley.” They said, “Did you have Jack Ruby Friday morning?” And I said, “Yes, sir.” And they said “We want to talk in private.” So I said “Wait just a minute.”

So I went to the back of the room to our vice presidents office, and I said, “Sy, I’m scared. Would you verify who these people are?” So Sy Wagner came up, he said, “You sit down in my office, and I’ll go up talk to them.” He went up and talked with these two men, and he came back in, oh, a few minutes. And said “Jerry, they’re okay. Go ahead and talk to them.”

 So I, they said, “Where can we meet in private?” and I said “Oh, we got a conference room just up here in front of the room.” So they said, “Let’s go in there and talk.” So I went in and one of them, the taller guy, was doing all the questions. The other one was making, looked like shorthand, but I couldn’t tell what he was doing there for sure. And he asked me to talk about that morning with Jack Ruby. And I did, and about when I was down at the parade area, and then I said “I want to ask you a question.” And the guy taking notes said “Wait a minute, we’re not here to answer questions, we’re here to ask,” in a rough kind of way. And I said, “Well, it’s about some blood I saw there.” Right away the man interviewing said “Tell me about this blood.”

So I told them what I’d seen and that one of my advertising photographers had made a picture of it. And he said “Is he here now?” and I said “Yes, he’s he sits just outside the door here.” He said “Go get him, get his camera, his negatives, and any positives that he’s got and you come back in here.”

So I went up to Jim’s desk, and I said “Jim, can you please come in here with me and bring your camera and your negatives? Did you print that piece out?” And he said “I just printed out that photo this morning.” He said “You know I don’t have right way in that photographic lab. The newsroom has first priority. With all that’s been going on, I haven’t been able to print that picture,” he said “but I just did this morning.”

And I said, “Well, get it and come in here.” So he brought the camera, the negative, and the positive was in a brown envelope. The FBI man, we went in, and he introduced himself and they had us sit down. The FBI who was doing the question man took the negative and then he took the envelope and opened it up and looked at the print, and that was the first time I had seen the print, it was just a print of the blood stain there on the, or the blood there, on top of the steps. And he wanted to know if there were any more prints made. Jim said “No, I’ve just been able to make that one this morning.”

So then they turned and had some sort of muffled conversation between themselves, and it seemed like after an eternity as they stood there, probably 2 or 3 minutes, but the big guy stood up and then the other one did too. And he put everything in the bag, put it under his arm, then said “Boys, this conversation never took place, if you know what we mean.” And they walked out the door and left.

Jim and I sat in that conference room, and he said “What the hell is going on here? What have you gotten me into? and I said “Jim, I don’t know what’s going on. I just know that my wife’s been threatened. He said “What?!” I said “Yeah.” He said “Well, what are you saying?” I said “I’m not talking to anybody, Jim.”  He said “Then you should shut your mouth and I’m gonna shut mine. And let’s don’t talk about this blood mess anymore!” And I said “I won’t.”

Well, we didn’t.

Wasn’t long after that, a few days after that, I received a subpoena to Jack Ruby’s trial. And on the subpoena, which I still have, it’s addressed to “Coley at the News,” which I guess was taken from that news story that ran on that two star edition only.

Some, I don’t know when it was, in the 70s sometime after that, “Unsolved Mysteries”, an NBC production called and said “We would like to meet with you afterward and listen to your story about Jack Ruby that morning and your association with him.” And I said “Fine.”

And so they came that afternoon about 6. About 9 o’clock they took a short break and I called my wife to tell her we’re still going on and I said “You know what? Everybody that could corroborate my story about the blood now is dead. Jim Hood, Sy Wagner, Don Campbell.” I said “You know, we’ve never talked about it, and I just gotta tell somebody and to get it off, let it be open.” She panicked. She said “Don’t do that.” And I said “Well, you know if I talk about this, they’ll think, well at the worst I’m some kind of nut. Nobody’s going to believe me, but at least I told it.”

Well I did, and they nearly flipped out.

They said “We want to come back the next morning, we want to go over to where this happened, we want to.” And they did. I met them and we went over there.

This went on all morning long.

And finally they said “Okay, it’s a wrap. We’ll call you when we get back to California and give you the run show date for when we’re going to run this.”

Well, they called, seemed like two or three days later, and says “We can’t use that blood story. We couldn’t substantiate it.” And I said “I told you that when I told you the story. That’s why I told it to you.” So they said “Well we can only use the other part about Jack Ruby.”

Then after that I’ve been interviewed by the Japanese, out of Tokyo, Japan. They came over, talked. Of course, they had all kinds of wild theories.

I don’t advance a theory of what I’ve seen other than I know that what I saw, it scared me to death, I know my wife was threatened three times on the phone. For me to shut up, which I have, I haven’t said anything other than that story that Hugh had written about me talking with Jack Ruby that morning.

And I know that when this happened, I was there, I saw the people run towards that picket fence. No one ran towards the book depository. And that’s all I know first hand, sir.

 

Edited by Denny Zartman

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Testimony of Malcolm Couch

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/couch.htm

Mr. BELIN - This pool of blood - about how far would it have been north of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes under the expressway?
Mr. COUCH - I'd say - uh - well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself?
Mr. BELIN - Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the expressway? 

Mr. COUCH - I'd say - uh - 50 to 60 feet, and about 10 to 15 feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN - It would be somewhere along that park area there?
Mr. COUCH - Right.

Mr. BELIN - Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood?
Mr. COUCH - No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for something. We thought there would be something else, but -
Mr. BELIN - There was nothing?
Mr. COUCH - Huh -uh.

Edited by Michael Clark

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