Jarrah White's Proton 4 claims

[Duane Daman]

That's some real fine "evidence" you posted there Dave .... Too bad the boys at NORAD and NASA don't have as much on the ball as you do .

If the light in the sky was Proton 4 re-entering the atmosphere it would have broken up in a shower of sparks... It wasn't built with a heat shield to touchdown in the Pacific hours later.

I hate to change the subject, because I don't want to be accused of using 'The 25 Rules of Disinformation' like Craig does, but I thought this was an interesting video .

Now we finally get to see where the Apollo astronots might have been hiding during the lift off of the Saturn V rocket which allegedy launched them to the Moon .

Can Apollo get any stranger as the years go by ?

James Burke demonstrates Apollo Saturn emergency precautions

"James Burke explains the infrastructure designed to protect the astronauts in the event of the Saturn V exploding on the launch pad. Unfortunately no one says how they could predict such a catastrophe far enough in advance ."

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pLiAwSKkm6k

[Dave Greer]

That's some real fine "evidence" you posted there Dave .... Too bad the boys at NORAD and NASA don't have as much on the ball as you do .

If the light in the sky was Proton 4 re-entering the atmosphere it would have broken up in a shower of sparks... It wasn't built with a heat shield to touchdown in the Pacific hours later.

Which evidence do you dispute? The eye-witness reports that put the object flying north to south off Western Australia 5 hours prior to Apollo 11 splashing down, 6000 miles to the north-east?

[Gavin Stone]

Only eye witness accounts, newspaper stories, NORAD tracking information and the Keplerian elements and orbital parameters for Proton 4.

Eye witness accounts stated that it was a UFO .... Newspaper stories said it was a UFO .... NORAD apparently didn't know what it was , because it took them ONE MONTH to come up with a COVER STORY .

Sorry , but it re-entered Earth's atmosphere from LEO on the same day Apollo 11 did the same .... Coincidence ? ... Maybe , but I doubt it .

Check your source AGAIN Duane.

Newspaper Headline: Object may have been Satellite

Newspaper Text: "The carnarvon tracking station director Mr R. Jacomb offered a tentative explanation for the sightings. The object could have been a satellite entering the Earth's atmosphere"

"A general worldwide alert was sent worldwide that a satellite would be re-entering the Earth's atmosphere"

The paper is quite clearly indicating that the object is thought to be a satellite.

NORAD apparently didn't know what it was , because it took them ONE MONTH to come up with a COVER STORY .

Did it? You are basing this on what exactly? Just because the West Australian reported on this a month later, it doesn't mean that NORAD took that long to have the data. Yet more speculation.

Sorry , but it re-entered Earth's atmosphere from LEO on the same day Apollo 11 did the same .... Coincidence ? ... Maybe , but I doubt it .

We don't deal with "Maybe's" in this game Duane, you either have the proof or you don't. In this case you don't.

[Gavin Stone]

That's some real fine "evidence" you posted there Dave .... Too bad the boys at NORAD and NASA don't have as much on the ball as you do .

If the light in the sky was Proton 4 re-entering the atmosphere it would have broken up in a shower of sparks... It wasn't built with a heat shield to touchdown in the Pacific hours later.

I hate to change the subject, because I don't want to be accused of using 'The 25 Rules of Disinformation' like Craig does, but I thought this was an interesting video .

Now we finally get to see where the Apollo astronots might have been hiding during the lift off of the Saturn V rocket which allegedy launched them to the Moon .

Can Apollo get any stranger as the years go by ?

James Burke demonstrates Apollo Saturn emergency precautions

"James Burke explains the infrastructure designed to protect the astronauts in the event of the Saturn V exploding on the launch pad. Unfortunately no one says how they could predict such a catastrophe far enough in advance ."

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pLiAwSKkm6k

On one side of the coin, I want to tell you not to Hijack this thread. However, in this instance I will let you: I will tell you why.

You are now attempting to argue that the Apollo Astronauts didn't actually launch on the Saturn V. This of course means that they couldn't have been in Earth's orbit, which means you are following the idea that they were released from some sort of a plane in the CM.

Yet a page ago you are arguing for them being seen in Earths orbit? How transparent can you get? You didn't even argue this point on a seperate thread!!!!

I can't wait to see how you crawl out of this one Duane.

[Gavin Stone]

By the way, I slap myself on the hand for forgetting this.

A satellite in LEO would not have been visible for a full traversal across the sky two and a half hours after sunset, as it would have been in the Earths shadow and thus not lit.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Gavin Stone

[Evan Burton]

Duane,

When you have a chance, could you please answer these questions?

- How is the month "missing" figure calculated? Is that when the follow-up story appeared in the newspaper?

- If so, when did the newspaper get the information?

- Who supplied the information to the newspaper and when did they (the suppliers) get the information?

- What date was the request made to NORAD (or other agency supplying the data) and when did NORAD supply the information? By what means (mail, teletype, phone, etc)?

[Evan Burton]

It's a fair point: you claim there is a pro-Apollo bias here (I think you said greater numbers or something similar), so why not invite Jarrah to become a member here? Let him speak for himself, rather than you passing on messages for him?

I asked him about joining this forum and he told me that he doesn't have the time to post here ... He much prefers researching Apollo and spending his time making YouTube videos which expose the Apollo hoax, than to argue with those he considers to be "propagandists " .

So people who hold a similar viewpoint to yourself can't find the time to join here and help you fight the good fight? Disappointing... yet they still have time to read your messages and reply to them (which you then considerately post here).

Well, you can't complain about any perceived imbalance here then, if your own supporters / like-minded people cannot come here and help defend your views.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Evan Burton

[Duane Daman]

Which evidence do you dispute? The eye-witness reports that put the object flying north to south off Western Australia 5 hours prior to Apollo 11 splashing down, 6000 miles to the north-east?

I'm disputing that is was Proton 4 entering the atmosphere because it clearly wasn't reported to have broken up in a shower of sparks .

You say that Apollo 11 splashed down 6000 miles away, 5 hours later .

That's more than enough time for Apollo 11 to have done another couple of spins round the Earth in orbit before splashing down in the pacific .

Newspaper Headline: Object may have been Satellite

The operative word being MAY.

Newspaper Text: "The carnarvon tracking station director Mr R. Jacomb offered a tentative explanation for the sightings. The object could have been a satellite entering the Earth's atmosphere"

The operative words being TENTATIVE EXPLANATION and the object COULD HAVE BEEN .

Did it? You are basing this on what exactly? Just because the West Australian reported on this a month later, it doesn't mean that NORAD took that long to have the data. Yet more speculation.

If it's just "speculation " on my part, then please show me how long it took NORAD to "tentatively" identify the object .

We don't deal with "Maybe's" in this game Duane, you either have the proof or you don't. In this case you don't.

In this case , neither do you .

You are now attempting to argue that the Apollo Astronauts didn't actually launch on the Saturn V. This of course means that they couldn't have been in Earth's orbit, which means you are following the idea that they were released from some sort of a plane in the CM.

Well, that's one theory ... and when it comes to the NEVER A STRAIGHT ANSWER gang, anything is possible !

Yet a page ago you are arguing for them being seen in Earths orbit? How transparent can you get? You didn't even argue this point on a seperate thread!!!!

I can't wait to see how you crawl out of this one Duane.

You've never heard of unmanned missions ? ... NASA has launched plenty of them ... Even to the Moon .. Or maybe I should say , especially to the Moon !

I thought the escape chute video was interesting evidence, that for some strange reason not many people seem to know about ... I wonder if this evidence has anything to do with the fact that NO CAMERAS WERE EVER MOUNTED INSIDE THE APOLLO CRAFTS TO ALLOW ANYONE TO SEE THE ASTRONAUTS DURING LIFTOFF ??

Think about how strange that is .... Cameras were inside the cabins in all of the Mercury and Gemini missions , yet when NASA decided to make that GIANT LEAP FOR ALL MANKIND , NO CAMERAS were to be found anywhere to show the TV audience and mission control what the astronauts looked like being launched in the most powerful rocket to date , the SATURN V ! ....MANKINDS FIRST TRIP TO AN ALIEN WORLD IN THE MOST POWERFUL ROCKET EVER DESIGNED AND NASA HAS NO RECORD OF THE ASTRONUTS INSIDE THE CABIN DURING LAUNCH ! .. And of course the "official explanation " for this little oversight would be that there was no room inside the cabin for that little camera .... NASA's alleged Moon trips get fishier all the time .

A satellite in LEO would not have been visible for a full traversal across the sky two and a half hours after sunset, as it would have been in the Earths shadow and thus not lit.

So then that wasn't the PROTON 4 satellite that was seen streaking across the night sky , lit up like a UFO ?!? ... Thanks for finally admitting to that .

If it had been the Proton 4 satellite , it would have disingrated in a shower of sparks as it re-entered the atmosphere ... But this lit up object didn't do that , did it ? ... In fact , didn't the object that was seen have a trail behind it ? ... Only objects with heat shields have that trail , and satelittes don't have heat shileds .

When you have a chance, could you please answer these questions?

- How is the month "missing" figure calculated? Is that when the follow-up story appeared in the newspaper?

- If so, when did the newspaper get the information?

- Who supplied the information to the newspaper and when did they (the suppliers) get the information?

- What date was the request made to NORAD (or other agency supplying the data) and when did NORAD supply the information? By what means (mail, teletype, phone, etc)?

I don't know the answers to those questions but I will forward your questions to Jarrah to see if he might .

So people who hold a similar viewpoint to yourself can't find the time to join here and help you fight the good fight? Disappointing... yet they still have time to read your messages and reply to them (which you then considerately post here).

Well, you can't complain about any perceived imbalance here then, if your own supporters / like-minded people can come here and help defend your views.

Jarrah is fighting the good fight on other fronts and has no interest in arguing with character assassinating "propagandists" on this forum ... Unlike Craig , Gavin , Dave, Kevin , Matthew, and you ( did I leave anyone out ? ) , he has a life outside of discussion forums about Apollo .

The fact that I'm outnumbered on this forum by the Apollo apologists no longer bothers me ... It's just the way it is on most forums where those who defend the official government versions of everything are in the majority .

Edited January 16, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Dave Greer]

I'm disputing that is was Proton 4 entering the atmosphere because it clearly wasn't reported to have broken up in a shower of sparks .

You say that Apollo 11 splashed down 6000 miles away, 5 hours later .

That's more than enough time for Apollo 11 to have done another couple of spins round the Earth in orbit before splashing down in the pacific .

If it had been the Proton 4 satellite , it would have disingrated in a shower of sparks as it re-entered the atmosphere ... But this lit up object didn't do that , did it ? ... In fact , didn't the object that was seen have a trail behind it ? ... Only objects with heat shields have that trail , and satelittes don't have heat shileds .

Do you not see the paradox you've created here? Re-entry of a capsule takes a matter of minutes once it hit's the atmosphere and creates a visible plasma layer. You are saying that the Apollo 11 capsule was seen re-entering the atmosphere off the west coast of Australia, travelling north to south... and that re-entry continued for another couple of orbits before splashing down in the Pacific! That's the longest re-entry on history, and completely re-writes the laws of physics.

Let's not the facts get in the way of a good yarn though!

Jarrah is fighting the good fight on other fronts and has no interest in arguing with character assassinating "propagandists" on this forum ... Unlike Craig , Gavin , Dave, Kevin , Matthew, and you ( did I leave anyone out ? ) , he has a life outside of discussion forums about Apollo .

Yawn. Yeah, no-one who's interested in Apollo has a life outside it, unless they think it was faked. That's just a thinly-veiled attempt to make yourself feel superior to people with whom you disagree.

I'm taking my girlfriend to Whitby today for a bracing walk along the pier, followed by an unfeasibly large portion of haddock and chips. We may even risk the 199 steps. Then I'm cooking tea for my dear old Mum. 5-a-side footy (chap has to keep fit), a tasty pint of Guinness or three down the local, then round to my chums house for a late-night poker sesh. Then off to the local lap-dancing parlour to get my jollies off, before going back home so 'er indoors can feel the benefit.

Gosh, I have a rich and fulfilling life! I feel so superior to those fools who think Apollo was faked! All they do is infest discussion forums with their nonsense and make videos about Thomas the Tank Engine!

Do you really think anyone cares a great deal about the private life of anyone else on the forum? Stop pretending to be so superior, we're all just as human as each other! Have an ice-cream and grow up!

[Evan Burton]

When you have a chance, could you please answer these questions?

- How is the month "missing" figure calculated? Is that when the follow-up story appeared in the newspaper?

- If so, when did the newspaper get the information?

- Who supplied the information to the newspaper and when did they (the suppliers) get the information?

- What date was the request made to NORAD (or other agency supplying the data) and when did NORAD supply the information? By what means (mail, teletype, phone, etc)?

I don't know the answers to those questions but I will forward your questions to Jarrah to see if he might .

No, I asked YOU for the answers. You might get your information FROM Jarrah, but you should determine for yourself if his answers are accurate or not by checking the facts, and then posting YOUR answer.

Stop being Jarrah's proxy.

[Gavin Stone]

I'm disputing that is was Proton 4 entering the atmosphere because it clearly wasn't reported to have broken up in a shower of sparks .
You say that Apollo 11 splashed down 6000 miles away, 5 hours later .
That's more than enough time for Apollo 11 to have done another couple of spins round the Earth in orbit before splashing down in the pacific.

Duane, yet again you show a complete lack of knowledge of Orbital Mechanics. A LEO object which was at Australia at that time would be over the South Atlantic five hours later, but don't let this get in your way. After all, this is NASA; they can break the laws of Physics!

The operative word being MAY.

Where in the article does it state it was Apollo 11, what? No where? Didn't think so.

The operative words being TENTATIVE EXPLANATION and the object COULD HAVE BEEN .

Because it had not yet been confirmed, an article in the same paper a month later CONFIRMS the original hypothesis.

If it's just "speculation " on my part, then please show me how long it took NORAD to "tentatively" identify the object .

As I don't have access to NORAD tracking data, and it's not likely available on the internet; this is not really possible, is it?

In this case , neither do you .

Apart from the newspaper in question, calculated orbital elements, the laws of Physics, but don't let that get in your way.

Well, that's one theory ... and when it comes to the NEVER A STRAIGHT ANSWER gang, anything is possible !

No Duane, it's one or the other. They either launched on the Saturn V or they didn't. Which is it?

You've never heard of unmanned missions ? ... NASA has launched plenty of them ... Even to the Moon .. Or maybe I should say , especially to the Moon !

So I suppose the men who crawled out of the Apollo 11 capsule were robotic?

I thought the escape chute video was interesting evidence, that for some strange reason not many people seem to know about ... I wonder if this evidence has anything to do with the fact that NO CAMERAS WERE EVER MOUNTED INSIDE THE APOLLO CRAFTS TO ALLOW ANYONE TO SEE THE ASTRONAUTS DURING LIFTOFF ??

Did they launch on the Saturn V or not Duane, yes or no.

A satellite in LEO would not have been visible for a full traversal across the sky two and a half hours after sunset, as it would have been in the Earths shadow and thus not lit.

So then that wasn't the PROTON 4 satellite that was seen streaking across the night sky , lit up like a UFO ?!? ... Thanks for finally admitting to that .

If it had been the Proton 4 satellite , it would have disingrated in a shower of sparks as it re-entered the atmosphere ... But this lit up object didn't do that , did it ? ... In fact , didn't the object that was seen have a trail behind it ? ... Only objects with heat shields have that trail , and satelittes don't have heat shileds .

This is the best quote of all. You honestly think that the only thing capable of generating a tail is something with a heat shield? You're wrong; end of story. How can I make this simple for you.

IF THE APOLLO 11 CSM WAS IN LEO AT 19:05pm IT WOULD HAVE BEEN INVISIBLE FROM PERTH DUE TO IT BEING IN THE EARTHS SHADOW. The fact that Proton 4 was seen means that it must have been re-entering the Earth's atmosphere.

So you carry on arguing that Apollo 11 was in LEO and was seen to traverse the entire sky at 19:05pm Perth time July 24th 1969. Don't let the fact that this BREAKS THE LAWS OF THE PHYSICAL WORLD get in your way.

Jarrah is fighting the good fight on other fronts and has no interest in arguing with character assassinating "propagandists" on this forum ... Unlike Craig , Gavin , Dave, Kevin , Matthew, and you ( did I leave anyone out ? ) , he has a life outside of discussion forums about Apollo .

Ahhh typical Duane, always coming down to the insult. While you were flapping around thinking of ways to insult us "pro Apollo propagandists", I actually did some some research and emailed Perth observatory to ask them about Proton 4 and the month response.

"In 1969, you're talking about the height of the cold war. The Russians wouldn't be publishing orbital elements for their satellites, and while the US would have been monitoring them using radar, communications wasn't instant. Now, anyone can grab elements of any (non-classified) spacecraft off a web site, but in 1969, I'm surprised it was as short a time as a month for the information to trickle as far as Perth, via posted letters or telegrams (international calls were expensive, and rare). Just knowing the launch details wouldn't have been enough (assuming they were available), as the orbit would be decaying day by day.

Also, in Perth, the government astronomer at the time (Mike Candy) would have had to work out positions from the elements by hand, using a slide rule or possibly a mechanical calculator, not a computer...

I doubt we would have any records of the event, apart from archived press clippings which you apparently already have.

Andrew Williams"

Edited January 16, 2008 by Gavin Stone

[Matthew Lewis]

I thought this was settled a long time ago when it was shown that the object seen, traveling North to South would have been in a polar orbit and therefore couldn't have been Apollo anyway. Oh well, what's one more thing for Duane to ignore?

[Evan Burton]

Burton has asked questions I have no way of answering even if I had the interest in researching them , which I don't ... So the recent ganging up against me is quite entertaining ... They remind me of the bullies in the schoolyard with their mob mentality antics of pretending to debunk all hoax evidence .

No, I was trying to get you to independently check things that other people have told you, to confirm for yourself the veracity of their statements. If you simply accept and repeat a claim because it appeals to you and without checking the claim, what does that say about your reliability?

[Gavin Stone]

Evan / Any moderator

As this is my thread, could you move Duanes irrelevant post to a new thread please? I'd quite like to keep this one limited to discussion on Proton 4