Harold Norman on Frontline

[Pat Speer]

Harold Norman told PBS' Frontline, in its 1993 program "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald?": "We were looking out towards Elm Street, so he walked up and asked us, said, "What is everybody looking for? What's everybody waiting on?" So we told him we was waiting on the President to come by. He put his hands in his pocket and laughed and walked away, so I don't know where he went, or if he went upstairs or downstairs or where."

What the heck was he talking about? If "we was waiting on the President to come by" then this must have been lunchtime, right? That means Norman saw Oswald downstairs or on the fifth floor. But if it was downstairs then why does he say that Oswald may have went downstairs afterward? Could Norman have really seen Oswald on the fifth floor just before the shots rang out, and never have bothered to tell anyone?

What's your interpretation of his statement? Frontline presents it as if it's consistent with an event taking place in the morning.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Pat Speer

[Cigdem Göle]

Harold Norman told PBS' Frontline, in its 1993 program "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald?": "We were looking out towards Elm Street, so he walked up and asked us, said, "What is everybody looking for? What's everybody waiting on?" So we told him we was waiting on the President to come by. He put his hands in his pocket and laughed and walked away, so I don't know where he went, or if he went upstairs or downstairs or where."

What the heck was he talking about? If "we was waiting on the President to come by" then this must have been lunchtime, right? That means Norman saw Oswald downstairs or on the fifth floor. But if it was downstairs then why does he say that Oswald may have went downstairs afterward? Could Norman have really seen Oswald on the fifth floor just before the shots rang out, and never have bothered to tell anyone?

What's your interpretation of his statement? Frontline presents it as if it's consistent with an event taking place in the morning.

I haven't heard that before. Sounds strange.

Pat, Could you provide any links (youtube/google video) to the PBS program?

[Pat Speer]

Harold Norman told PBS' Frontline, in its 1993 program "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald?": "We were looking out towards Elm Street, so he walked up and asked us, said, "What is everybody looking for? What's everybody waiting on?" So we told him we was waiting on the President to come by. He put his hands in his pocket and laughed and walked away, so I don't know where he went, or if he went upstairs or downstairs or where."

What the heck was he talking about? If "we was waiting on the President to come by" then this must have been lunchtime, right? That means Norman saw Oswald downstairs or on the fifth floor. But if it was downstairs then why does he say that Oswald may have went downstairs afterward? Could Norman have really seen Oswald on the fifth floor just before the shots rang out, and never have bothered to tell anyone?

What's your interpretation of his statement? Frontline presents it as if it's consistent with an event taking place in the morning.

I haven't heard that before. Sounds strange.

Pat, Could you provide any links (youtube/google video) to the PBS program?

You youngin's with your Youtube. I don't think it's online, but here's the transcript.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...etc/script.html

The logical interpretation of Norman's words is that he was talking about looking down from a window sometime before lunch. But it sure seems strange that he says "we was waiting" when Kennedy was at least an hour away, and radios were playing all over the building. It's not as if he was just gonna show up un-announced. Maybe he momentarily blurred his recollection of watching the motorcade with his memory of seeing Oswald earlier in the day, and mis-spoke.

I suppose my interest in Norman was piqued by my discovery of this quote the other day... (11-09-83 AP article found in the Indiana Gazette) ""I didn't see the gun barrel but I did see the debris that fell in one of my friend's hair. I could hear a gun going off above us, and the debris fell each time there was a shot," said Norman. The debris was dust and tiny pieces of concrete broken loose by the concussion of the rifle, he said. "I sure do see that scene — sometimes pretty regularly. Sometimes I'll be driving down the street and thinking about it," he

said. "I can close my eyes and see President Kennedy again. One minute he's smiling and waving and then he's slumped back and wounded.'' Norman said he never believed a conspiracy was involved in the assassination, but he also never fully believed his coworker —Oswald—was the trigger man."

Now what does that mean? If he never believed there was a conspiracy, but also never fully believed Oswald was the trigger man, then he must have suspected that some other lone nut killed JFK, right? And that the DPD and FBI framed Oswald. Now, that would be strange!

[Cigdem Göle]

You youngin's with your Youtube. (Youngin?? Who? Me?? ) I don't think it's online, but here's the transcript.

Thanks for the transcript.

I also find it interesting that he says Oswald put his hands in his pockets and walked away laughing.

He seems strangely casual for an assassin who was about to shoot the president.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...etc/script.html

The logical interpretation of Norman's words is that he was talking about looking down from a window sometime before lunch. But it sure seems strange that he says "we was waiting" when Kennedy was at least an hour away, and radios were playing all over the building. It's not as if he was just gonna show up un-announced. Maybe he momentarily blurred his recollection of watching the motorcade with his memory of seeing Oswald earlier in the day, and mis-spoke.

I suppose my interest in Norman was piqued by my discovery of this quote the other day... (11-09-83 AP article found in the Indiana Gazette) ""I didn't see the gun barrel but I did see the debris that fell in one of my friend's hair. I could hear a gun going off above us, and the debris fell each time there was a shot," said Norman. The debris was dust and tiny pieces of concrete broken loose by the concussion of the rifle, he said. "I sure do see that scene — sometimes pretty regularly. Sometimes I'll be driving down the street and thinking about it," he

said. "I can close my eyes and see President Kennedy again. One minute he's smiling and waving and then he's slumped back and wounded.'' Norman said he never believed a conspiracy was involved in the assassination, but he also never fully believed his coworker —Oswald—was the trigger man."

Now what does that mean? If he never believed there was a conspiracy, but also never fully believed Oswald was the trigger man, then he must have suspected that some other lone nut killed JFK, right? And that the DPD and FBI framed Oswald. Now, that would be strange!

Edited June 13, 2008 by Cigdem Eksi

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Harold Norman told PBS' Frontline, in its 1993 program "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald?": "We were looking out towards Elm Street, so he walked up and asked us, said, "What is everybody looking for? What's everybody waiting on?" So we told him we was waiting on the President to come by. He put his hands in his pocket and laughed and walked away, so I don't know where he went, or if he went upstairs or downstairs or where."

Harold Norman's memory seems to have improved dramatically between 1964 and 1993. This is what he told the WC:

Mr. Ball.

Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?

Mr. Norman.

Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that.

Mr. Ball.

Where did you see him?

Mr. Norman.

Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street.

Mr. Ball.

On what floor?

Mr. Norman.

The first.

Mr. Ball.

Looking out on Elm through windows, is that right?

Mr. Norman.

Yes, sir. I was looking out the window. He happened to come by to fill orders.

Mr. Ball.

Did he say anything to you?

Mr. Norman.

No; he didn't.

Mr. Ball.

Did you say anything to him?

Mr. Norman.

No.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page188.php

If the story Norman told Frontline is the truth, that would mean that he was lying to the Warren Commission.

The very fact that FRONTLINE would present this new story as though it was credible shows an appaling lack of objectivity on their part. It seems that, In 1993, Norman is adopting as his own the story told by another co-worker, whose name escapes me at the minute.

[Pat Speer]

Harold Norman told PBS' Frontline, in its 1993 program "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald?": "We were looking out towards Elm Street, so he walked up and asked us, said, "What is everybody looking for? What's everybody waiting on?" So we told him we was waiting on the President to come by. He put his hands in his pocket and laughed and walked away, so I don't know where he went, or if he went upstairs or downstairs or where."

Harold Norman's memory seems to have improved dramatically between 1964 and 1993. This is what he told the WC:

Mr. Ball.

Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?

Mr. Norman.

Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that.

Mr. Ball.

Where did you see him?

Mr. Norman.

Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street.

Mr. Ball.

On what floor?

Mr. Norman.

The first.

Mr. Ball.

Looking out on Elm through windows, is that right?

Mr. Norman.

Yes, sir. I was looking out the window. He happened to come by to fill orders.

Mr. Ball.

Did he say anything to you?

Mr. Norman.

No; he didn't.

Mr. Ball.

Did you say anything to him?

Mr. Norman.

No.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page188.php

If the story Norman told Frontline is the truth, that would mean that he was lying to the Warren Commission.

The very fact that FRONTLINE would present this new story as though it was credible shows an appaling lack of objectivity on their part. It seems that, In 1993, Norman is adopting as his own the story told by another co-worker, whose name escapes me at the minute.

Good eye. I remembered that Oswald spoke to someone that morning but you're right, it WASN'T Norman, it was James Jarman!

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir. I talked to him again later on that morning.

Mr. BALL - About what time?

Mr. JARMAN - It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. BALL - Where were you when you talked to him?

Mr. JARMAN - In between two rows of bins.

Mr. BALL - On what floor?

Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.

Mr. BALL - And what was said by him and by you?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm. Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all.

Even worse, in BOTH stories, Oswald was on the first floor. So what is Norman talking about? Saying Oswald could have went either upstairs or downstairs? The thought occurs that by the nineties Norman was just making crap up trying to make a little scratch. In 86 he testified in Bugliosi's mock trial of Oswald. He said he heard three clear shots...this is obviously rehearsed testimony. His Warren Commission testimony--what that hypocrite Bugliosi holds to be a sacred historical record--makes it more than clear, after all, that Norman had only a fuzzy recollection of one of the three shots.

In re-reading Norman's and Jarman's testimony, however, it seems likely that they were together sometime between 9:30 and 10:15--probably around break time--and that they jointly ran into Oswald, with Jarman doing the talking. Norman then, over the years, gradually changed his story to HIS talking to Oswald, and to Oswald laughing as he walked off.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Pat Speer

[Greg Parker]

Pat,

go back to Norman's earliest known statement - which was made to the Secret Service on Dec 4, 1963:

The last time I saw him [Oswald] was about 10:00AM when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.

Then skip to the '67 CBS special and his interview with Dan rather:

Norman: On that particular morning there were three or four of us standing by the window, and Oswald came over and said, "what's everybody looking at, what's everybody excited about?" And so I - we told him we were waiting on the President. So he just snudged [sic] and walked away.

Then they moved on to Jarman...

Jarman: I was talking to him around ten o'clock. On the outside, some people had gathered. And he asked me what was they gathering around there for...

Is it possible Norman's reference to "downstairs" is merely a reference to going outside?

What the WC and CBS and indeed, anyone looking to really get to the truth should have asked these guys is why they all consistently have Williams (including Williams himself) going direct to the 5th floor with them from the first right up until their WC depositions.

[Pat Speer]

Pat,

go back to Norman's earliest known statement - which was made to the Secret Service on Dec 4, 1963:

The last time I saw him [Oswald] was about 10:00AM when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time.

Then skip to the '67 CBS special and his interview with Dan rather:

Norman: On that particular morning there were three or four of us standing by the window, and Oswald came over and said, "what's everybody looking at, what's everybody excited about?" And so I - we told him we were waiting on the President. So he just snudged [sic] and walked away.

Then they moved on to Jarman...

Jarman: I was talking to him around ten o'clock. On the outside, some people had gathered. And he asked me what was they gathering around there for...

Is it possible Norman's reference to "downstairs" is merely a reference to going outside?

What the WC and CBS and indeed, anyone looking to really get to the truth should have asked these guys is why they all consistently have Williams (including Williams himself) going direct to the 5th floor with them from the first right up until their WC depositions.

Thanks, Greg. That makes it clearer. They were together, and Jarman did the talking, but then, over time, Norman started telling the story as if he did all the talking.

By the way, the earliest record on Norman is an 11-26 FBI report. At that point he said he couldn't recall even SEEING Oswald on the 22nd!

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=29

Methinks the man has a credibility issue!

Edited June 14, 2008 by Pat Speer

[J. Raymond Carroll]

What the WC and CBS and indeed, anyone looking to really get to the truth should have asked these guys is why they all consistently have Williams (including Williams himself) going direct to the 5th floor with them from the first right up until their WC depositions.

Greg, I don't follow this.

Have you explained this issue on another thread?

Pat: Thanks for the link. Do you have the capability to post the entire Indiana article?

Greg: Apart from the CBS transcript, can you give citation for the quotes?

[Greg Parker]

Pat,

thanks for the correction (though the link didn't work). All I was remembering was that no statement to the sheriff's office or DPD exists for that weekend.

I'm not sure that forgetting years later who said what is enough of an issue to destroy his credibility - though there may be a related problem I'll come back to shortly. Meanwhile, below is Williams' credibility issue.

--------------

Ray,

Here are some of their earlier statements:

Norman 12/4/63 statement: About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me.

FBI report 1/14/64: He [Jarman] said that he and two other boys ate lunch on the first floor around 12:00 noon on November 22, 1963 and shortly there afterwards went to the 5th floor, about 12:25 PM, on the west elevator in the building in order to watch the presidential parade. He said they stayed there until they heard the sound of shots...he said Ray and Norman were with him all the time he was on the first floor...

Williams 11/22/63 statement: We rode the elevator to the 1st floor and got our lunches. I went back up on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior I don't know his last name...

Greg: Apart from the CBS transcript, can you give citation for the quotes?

Not really sure what you're referring to here, Ray. I was quoting from the transcript. The other quote comes from this:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm

Does that answer it for you? If not please clarify...

------------------

The other possible problem I referred to above relates to comments made by Norman and Jarman in the CBS special.

1.) Were there really people gathered outside waiting for the motorcade at 10:00AM?

2.) Would Norman, Jarman and Williams really be looking out the window "getting excited" at 10:00AM?

The FBI report cited above has them all down on the first floor eating lunch until 12:25. Isn't this the most likely time they would be at the window "getting excited" and noticing the crowd?

One other thing... the conversation between LHO and these guys supposedly taking place at 10:00AM - shift it forward to noon and look at the result.

You bump into Eddie Piper's conversation with Oswald about having lunch... and Piper's memory of Oswald saying either he was going up or out!

Mr. BALL. And, did you see Oswald that morning?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. PIPES. Down on the first floor filling orders.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again that day?

Mr. PIPER. You mean all day-the rest of the day?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. PIPER. No.

Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?

Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o’clock.

Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o’clock?

Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him-“It’s about lunch time. I believe I’ll go have

lunch.” So, he says, “Yeah’‘-he mumbled something-

I don’t know whether he

said he was going up or going out,

so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and

went on back to the first window of the first door.

And there it is again! Norman's Frontline statement... so I don't know where he went, or if he went upstairs or downstairs or where.

Recall Norman's CBS statement... On that particular morning there were three or four of us standing by the window... Was the 4th person Piper?

These guys did see Oswald at lunchtime - on the first floor... just as he claimed, but they were persuaded to switch their sighting to earlier in the morning - just as Williams was persuaded to place himself having lunch on the 6th.

[Josh Cron]

Here's a link to a San Antonio Express News article by Bill Hendricks I stumbled on in the Moscow-Pullman Daily News from 11/18/93 where Norman repeats what he told Frontline.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=eU8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=j9AFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3137,751454&dq=james-jarman+kennedy&hl=en

From the article:

Norman recalled seeing Oswald shortly before the president’s motorcade reached Dealey Plaza. That was on the fifth floor of the depository. Norman noted, adding that he and another worker, James Jarman, were leaning out of a window with a view of Dealey Plaza. “He walked over to us and asked what we were doing,” Norman said of Oswald. “We said we were waiting for the president’s motorcade. He laughed and walked away.” A few minutes later, Norman said, he heard three shots fired from the sixth-floor window directly above the one he was using to view the parade.

Does anyone else find it odd that Norman's first statement to the authorities does not come until the 26th, when Jarman and Williams both gave statements by the 23rd?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Josh Cron

[Pat Speer]

Here's a link to a San Antonio Express News article by Bill Hendricks I stumbled on in the Moscow-Pullman Daily News from 11/18/93 where Norman repeats what he told Frontline.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=eU8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=j9AFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3137,751454&dq=james-jarman+kennedy&hl=en

From the article:

Norman recalled seeing Oswald shortly before the president’s motorcade reached Dealey Plaza. That was on the fifth floor of the depository. Norman noted, adding that he and another worker, James Jarman, were leaning out of a window with a view of Dealey Plaza. “He walked over to us and asked what we were doing,” Norman said of Oswald. “We said we were waiting for the president’s motorcade. He laughed and walked away.” A few minutes later, Norman said, he heard three shots fired from the sixth-floor window directly above the one he was using to view the parade.

Does anyone else find it odd that Norman's first statement to the authorities does not come until the 26th, when Jarman and Williams both gave statements by the 23rd?

When one looks through Norman's statements in chronological order, it's fairly clear that he had, with time, come to think that his encounter with Oswald at break time, had happened instead at lunch time.

From patspeer.com, chapter 8:

Harold Norman (11-26-63 FBI report, CD5 p26) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) “He further stated he cannot recall whether he saw Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository during Friday, November 22, 1963." (On the shooting) "He stated that about the time the car in which the president was riding turned on to Elm Street, he heard a shot. He said he thought the shot had been fired from the floor directly above him. He further stated at that time he stuck his head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above him. He stated two additional shots were fired after he had pulled his head back in from the window.”

(12-4-63 affidavit to the Secret Service, 17H208) (On seeing Oswald earlier that day) "On November 22, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00AM when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time." (On the shooting) “Just after the President passed by I heard a shot and several seconds later, I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street run toward the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman.”

(12-7-63 Secret Service Report based on interviews conducted between 12-2 and 12-5, CD87 p783) "Just after the President passed their position, Norman heard a shot fired and several seconds later, he heard two more shots spaced closely together. Norman claims that he knew immediately that the shots had come from directly above his position, since he heard the bolt action of the rifle and he also heard the expended shells fall to the floor. Norman also claims that some dust fell from the ceiling of the fifth floor which convinced him that there was some type of activity taking place directly above him."

(3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H666) “I was with James Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams watching the motorcade bearing President John F. Kennedy pass the Texas School Book Depository Building when I heard three shots fired from, I believe, the floor directly above me.”

(3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H186-198) (On seeing Oswald earlier that day) (I saw him) "around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that...Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street...(On) The first (floor)...I was looking out the window. He happened to come by to fill orders." (When asked if he said anything to Oswald and if Oswald had said anything to him) "No, he didn't...No" (On the shooting) “About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking at the public…I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said “I believe someone is shooting at the President,” and I think I made a statement “it is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us. Well, I couldn’t see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle.” (When asked if he saw any dirt or dust falling) "I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray Williams hair...I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first. Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway." (When asked what happened after that) "Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway."

(Interview with CBS aired 9-27-64) “Then the motorcade got to Elm and it turned and it started towards the triple underpass. The President, he was waving at people as he went by and occasionally he would brush his hair back." (Later in the same broadcast) “When I heard the second shot that’s when I saw the people start falling on the ground." (Later in the same broadcast) "But before the third shot was fired I told the guys that, you know, I believed the shot came from the building above us. And eventually, I guess, they agreed with me, because one of the guys said “I believe you’re right.” And I said “I know I’m right” because I could hear something sound as though the shells were hitting the floor and I could hear the ejection of the rifle, clicks like that, you know.” (Later in the same broadcast) “Well, I was looking out the window and the first shot was fired. Well, y'know, I didn't think much of it, because it, shook the building a little bit. Really, it was just that powerful. Then after the second shot was fired, well, I saw the people. They were all falling on the ground. And I told one of the fellows. I say, “That shot came from this building.” And then by that time I heard the third shot. And one of the guys told me, he said, “I believe you’re right.” And I say “I know it did." And then I could, you know, also hear the hulls, empty hulls, the cartridges, hitting the floor, and I could hear the ejection of the rifle, whatever it was. And the first thing we thought is we better get down from here because I know I didn’t want to be involved in anything like that because I didn't have anything like that on my mind…”

(Late 1966 interview with Lawrence Schiller recounted in The Scavengers and the Critics of the Warren Report, published 1967) "When the President came around, he was waving, seemed to be happy. About that time I heard a shot, and one of the guys said "Somebody's shooting at the President." And I said : "Well, he sure is, because I know that's a shot." And another shot was fired. Then another shot. I saw the President slump over and the Secret Service men and the policemen, they seemed to not recognize where the shots came from. There was a passenger train over by the railroad track and everybody was running that way. That's where they thought the shots came from at first. But I knew it was someone, the shots came from above us. I didn't know who it was or where but I know they were above us because I could even hear the cartridges hitting the floor and I knew the shots came from above...They were right over me. I was sitting almost directly under the window that the shots came from and I could hear them very plainly...One of the guys, some of the debris had dropped one one of the fellows' head, in his hair, and he mentioned it to the other fellow and we looked and there it was, in his hair."

(Interview with CBS broadcast 6-25-67, additional portions broadcast in 1992) (On seeing Oswald earlier that day) "On that particular morning there were three or four of us standing by the window, and Oswald came over and said, "what's everybody looking at, what's everybody excited about?" And so I - we told him we was waiting on the President. So he just snudged up and walked away." (On the shooting) "And then I think about that time, Jarman says "Somebody's shooting at the President." And I told Jarman, I said "I know it is" because I could hear it being above me and I could hear the shots and everything. And I could even now hear the empty cartridge hit the floor I mean after the shots had been fired. And so, after the shots were fired, well all the officers and everyone else seemed to think it came from down the track down by the underpass cause that's where everyone ran over thatta way. But just like I've said, I've been hunting enough to know the sound of a rifle from a backfire or a firecracker, especially this close to me." (When asked how many shots he heard) “Three. I’d say just about like this BOOM…click click…BOOM…click clickBOOM. Something similar to that.”

(10-20-77 HSCA interview) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) "Well a few more friends of mine, we were over by the window, main entrance coming into the building, and we were looking out and he came over and made the statement to us and asked what was everybody excited about because the president was coming to town." (On Oswald's behavior after making out that the president's visit was nothing to get excited about) "he left, and I never did pay him much, no attention." (When asked a bit later if he saw Oswald come in to work) "No...There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the president coming to town. Then when he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do when he's playing cowboys and Indians?...He did like this: 'pow.'" (When asked if he meant that Oswald behaved as if he were a "cowboy firing two guns') "Yes." (On the shooting) "just as the motorcade came around...3 shots was fired...Boom, clack-clack, boom, clack-clack, boom. One at a time. I see the President fall back and do high hand." (When asked if that was in response to the first shot) "No, I didn't think it was the first shot. I can't recall. (When asked if he saw the president react to the first shot) "No, I didn't because I really didn't know who was shooting--who somebody was shooting at. I mean, I heard the shots, but not thinking that, you know, that that was what was happening--that the president had been hit." (When asked from where he thought the shots were being fired) "From right up above me, up on the fifth floor. And I knew the shots had to be on the 6th floor, you know, on top of the roof." (When asked if heard any cartridges fall) "I heard three." (When asked if Jarman had pointed out any debris in his hair) "Yes...I didn't feel it. It was just something that must have been lightly--debris. It wasn't nothing, you know, that I really could feel...I feel like it was coming from either somebody moving around or something that had to cause the debris to fall down in my hair like that." (When asked again from where he thought the shots were being fired) "Well, I myself, I knew all the time that they came from above, why you could just hear it, I mean, you know, you know somebody's up there..." (On the comments of Jarman and Williams, after they ran to the west side) "Well, at one time somebody made a statement that someone was shooting at the president or they thought someone was shooting at the president. And I think I made the statement 'Yes, I know somebody is shooting at him.'" (When asked if he saw the president hit) "Well, I feel like that he had been hit. I mean I feel like this because I only--he went back in some type of way, he did his hand or something, I don't know if he was falling or reaching for it or what, but I felt like that he had been hit there."

(11-09-83 AP article found in the Indiana Gazette) "'I didn't see the gun barrel but I did see the debris that fell in one of my friend's hair. I could hear a gun going off above us, and the debris fell each time there was a shot," said Norman. The debris was dust and tiny pieces of concrete broken loose by the concussion of the rifle, he said. "I sure do see that scene — sometimes pretty regularly. Sometimes I'll be driving down the street and thinking about it," he said. "I can close my eyes and see President Kennedy again. One minute he's smiling and waving and then he's slumped back and wounded.'' Norman said he never believed a conspiracy was involved in the assassination, but he also never fully believed his coworker —Oswald—was the trigger man. 'I won't say he did it,' Norman said. 'I just won't.'"

(7-23-86 testimony in a televised mock trial, On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald) "Well, I heard a shot when the motorcade came by. The first shot, it made the President slump. Then I heard two more shots." (When asked if he heard a total of three shots) "Yes, sir." (When asked how he could tell the shots came from above) "Yes, sir...Because I could hear the empty hulls--that's what I call them--hit the floor and I could hear the bolt action of the rifle being pushed back and forward." (When asked how many hulls he heard hit the floor) "Three." (When asked by the defense to describe the rhythm of the sounds) "As I recall, the rhythm of the sounds of the shots was Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click." (When asked by the defense if he thought there was an armed man directly above him) "I can't say that I thought that." (When asked if he thought there was somebody up there) "I thought there was somebody up there, sir."

(1-19-92 interview with Gerald Posner, reported in Case Closed, 1993) "When the first shot came, I heard boom, then click-click, boom, click-click, boom. I could hear the sound of the click. I could hear the sound of the shells hitting the floor. I could hear everything. Three shots. No doubt in my mind."

(6-13-93 Interview with PBS Frontline) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) "We were looking out towards Elm Street, so he walked up and asked us, said, "What is everybody looking for? What's everybody waiting on?" So we told him we was waiting on the President to come by. He put his hands in his pocket and laughed and walked away, so I don't know where he went, or if he went upstairs or downstairs or where." (On the sound of the shots) “We was sitting on the fifth floor, directly under the sixth floor windows. The shots came from above and there was a gun and the shots were sounding, "Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click." So there was three shots fired right up over us when we were sitting on the fifth floor.” (Intriguingly, the transcription of the first part of this Frontline interview, when published in Gus Russo's 1998 book Live by the Sword, had a few extra lines.) In Russo's transcription, between Norman's saying Oswald "laughed and walked away" and his saying "I don't know where he went" he says "I thought maybe he's just being happy that morning or something. He was glad the President was coming through. He acted as though he didn't know, but I kind of think he did know." (Russo's transcription of the second part of the interview, in which Norman describes the shots, was also considerably different than the interview shown on TV, and far more expansive.) "At the time of the shooting, James Jarman and myself were on the fifth floor. Somehow he (Bonnie Ray Williams) lost us. But he did come down to find us just before the motorcade came through. So he joined us and we pulled up some cartons, standing in the window waiting on the motorcade. And as the motorcade came by, we started looking and we had a good view. And all of a sudden, we hear something. 'Boom, ack, ack, boom, ack, ack, boom.' I told Jarman, 'I believe somebody's shooting at the President.' And he said, 'Yeah, that certainly sounds like it.' And then by this time we looked over and there was some debris or dirt or something fell on top of Jarman's head. And that was three of the shells I heard on the floor. And when the police officer asked about it, we told them about it and they went up there and that is what they found up there on the sixth floor. Three empty cartridge shells up there."

(Article by Bill Hendricks in the San Antonio Express News, as found in the 11-20-93 Moscow-Pullman Daily News) "Norman was a 25-year old employee at the Texas School Book Depository when Kennedy was shot to death Nov 22 1963. One of his co-workers was Lee Harvey Oswald, whom police later arrested as a suspect in the killing. Now, 30 years later, Norman is unemployed, although he sells copies of JFK Today, a tabloid-sized newspaper for $3 a copy to tourists at Dealey Plaza...'I knew him,' Norman said of Oswald--but not well. The two never talked, except to exchange a brief greeting. Norman recalled seeing Oswald shortly before the president's motorcade reached Dealey Plaza. That was on the fifth floor of the depository, Norman noted, adding that he and another worker, James Jarman, were leaning out of a window with a view of Dealey Plaza. 'He walked over to us and asked what we were doing,' Norman said of Oswald. 'We said we were waiting for the president's motorcade. He laughed and walked away.' A few minutes later, Norman said, he heard three shots fired from the sixth floor window directly above the one he was using to view the parade."

Edited April 14, 2012 by Pat Speer