Additional Claims about the Knoll-Wall

[Ron Ecker]

The man in the suit and hat that Hoffman claimed to have seen as seen in the Moorman #5 and Willis #5 photos. The figure is seen against the skyline in both and has some overhanging foliage blocking the facial area in the Willis photograph.

Well, this is the first I have heard of Hat Man being photographed by Willis.

Are you talking about Willis #7, taken just before the first shot? Willis #5 was taken while JFK was still on Houston Street.

Can you post Willis #7 (or whichever it is) and point out exactly where this man's image is found in it?

[Bill Miller]

Well, this is the first I have heard of Hat Man being photographed by Willis.

Are you talking about Willis #7, taken just before the first shot? Willis #5 was taken while JFK was still on Houston Street.

Can you post Willis #7 (or whichever it is) and point out exactly where this man's image is found in it?

Let me explain ... I used the term Willis #7 once before and Jack White replied saying that it was Willis #5 that showed the limo as Willis took a photo of the President from behind at Z202. I think I used the number 7 because Trask had it that way in his book. In the original slide order as Willis took photos - the Elm Street photo showing the Black Dog Man was the 7th slide. Later on Willis sold a set of slides and in that set - the Elm Street photo was the 5th image of that particular set. So the photo Willis took at Z202 then became widely known as Willis #5.

I believe Lee Bowers said that when the President came onto Elm Street that the man in the suit was up near the fence looking towards the approaching motorcade. I noticed one day the shape of a man's shoulders and head/hat through the foliage near the corner of the fence. This image is missing in post assassination photos. This is why I assumed it had to be the same man that both Bowers and Hoffman had seen and is the man who's hat is seen near the tree in Moorman's #5 Polaroid.

Edited September 30, 2004 by Bill Miller

[Ron Ecker]

Bill,

Thanks. That's an interesting image. But it looks like he's wearing some kind of flat-top hat, unlike what he's wearing in Moorman.

[Bill Miller]

Bill,

Thanks. That's an interesting image. But it looks like he's wearing some kind of flat-top hat, unlike what he's wearing in Moorman.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's pretty simple really. There was only one man seen in a suit and hat near that location. The shape of the top part of the hat is seen quite clearly in a good print of Moorman's photo. With the foliage between the man and the camera in the Willis photo and not knowing exactly how his head is positioned ... the exact shape can be easily lost under those circumstances. What isn't lost IMO is his being image seen through the leaves against the Dallas sky.

Edited September 30, 2004 by Bill Miller

[Tim Carroll]

Bill:

It is your position that Gordon Arnold felt the shot come past his left ear and then dropped to the ground. But the shooter you place in that position would of course be Badgeman, who didn't fire for at least 4/18s after the headshot, given the timing and muzzle flash.

Here is the quote of Arnold you posted earlier in this thread:

"You’ll hear a noise following behind it, and to me, I knew I was dead because that was a bullet that just went over me. And it’s not a span of time that this occurred in. This happened, what I’m telling you, is all in one sequence because when the shot went past my ear, I was automatically falling. And when I was falling, I was still taking... The camera was still rolling. And I could see the president’s head go back. Now that’s the last that I remember being on the camera, but when I went down, I literally went down and when you’re… you’re taught to roll…” “…to get down as deep as you can and away from the line of fire. And I would say that another shot went over my… the position that I was in, but the… when that occurred, I was down. "

It doesn't make sense that on one hand you portray Arnold as still standing and filming 4/18s after the headshot, and then quote him to the effect that he dropped at the first shot and was already on the ground when a shooter fired a shot so long after Zf-313.

Arnold's histrionics are great: "And when I was falling, I was still taking... The camera was still rolling. And I could see the president’s head go back."

Tim

[Tim Carroll]

So you have no trouble excepting Garys' word/opinion when it doesn't conflict with your own.

I have little choice in the matter for Gary Mack has access to the original film which gives him a better image to view than we have.... I think that is a stupid and reckless position you've taken and my answer is still the same as above.... I didn't have access to the camera original, so I called the 6th floor Museum and asked Gary Mack to look at the Bell film when he had some free time and get back with me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bill Miller obviously cites his constantly repeated relationship with GARY MACK (speaking "2-3 times" per day) to justify his fatuously dismissive and rude comments to others. Is the rudeness, as Gary Mack puts it, also supported by Gary Mack? Is Bill Miller Gary Mack's frontman? There have been too many episodes such as this where it can't work both ways. Either Bill Miller has Gary Mack's daily support both with regard to the evidence and the behavior, or GARY MACK NEEDS TO GET A CONSCIENCE AND DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM SUCH COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE CRUDITY.

Let's not forget that there's not a person in the world who makes more money from the Kennedy assassination than Gary Mack, with his white SUV and its vanity plates, or that he holds his position by kissing the same types of city father asses that were complicit in the events in late November, 1963 - if not in Dealey Plaza, then at least in the DPD basement live TV murder of Oswald, and on the billboards against Earl Warren, and the "Wanted for Treason" flyers, General Walker, and the nutburgers that haven't exactly moved away, such as Stan Levinson - Dallas' current version of Clay Shaw, with his Caribbean internet "free trade" front, Gary Mack's benefactor.

Tim Carroll

Edited December 18, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[William Plumlee]

So you have no trouble excepting Garys' word/opinion when it doesn't conflict with your own.

I have little choice in the matter for Gary Mack has access to the original film which gives him a better image to view than we have.... I think that is a stupid and reckless position you've taken and my answer is still the same as above.... I didn't have access to the camera original, so I called the 6th floor Museum and asked Gary Mack to look at the Bell film when he had some free time and get back with me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bill Miller obviously cites his constantly repeated relationship with GARY MACK (speaking "2-3 times" per day) to justify his fatuously dismissive and rude comments to others. Is the rudeness, as Gary Mack puts it, also supported by Gary Mack? Is Bill Miller Gary Mack's frontman? There have been too many episodes such as this where it can't work both ways. Either Bill Miller has Gary Mack's daily support both with regard to the evidence and the behavior, or GARY MACK NEEDS TO GET A CONSCIENCE AND DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM SUCH COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE CRUDITY.

Let's not forget that there's not a person in the world who makes more money from the Kennedy assassination than Gary Mack, or that he holds his position by kissing the same types of city father asses that were complicit in the events in late November, 1963 - if not in Dealey Plaza, then at least in the DPD basement live TV murder of Oswald, and on the billboards against Earl Warren, and the "Wanted for Treason" flyers, General Walker, and the nutburgers that haven't exactly moved away, such as Stan Levinson - the current version of Clay Shaw, Gary Mack's benefactor.

Tim Carroll

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Tim. When are you going to tell us what you really think?

[Tim Carroll]

Hey Tim.  When are you going to tell us what you really think?     

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Tosh Plumlee has a refreshing sense of humor, which, at times, is the best one can hope for in life. It's difficult for me today, facing tomorrow's memorial for Gary Webb in Sacramento.

Tim

[Bill Miller]

Bill Miller obviously cites his constantly repeated relationship with GARY MACK (speaking "2-3 times" per day) to justify his fatuously dismissive and rude comments to others.  Is the rudeness, as Gary Mack puts it, also supported by Gary Mack?  Is Bill Miller Gary Mack's frontman?  There have been too many episodes such as this where it can't work both ways.  Either Bill Miller has Gary Mack's daily support both with regard to the evidence and the behavior, or GARY MACK NEEDS TO GET A CONSCIENCE AND DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM SUCH COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE CRUDITY. 

Tim - Your remarks are the sign of a man who doesn't think things through very well IMO. I contact the 6th Floor Museum regularly for historical information on the JFK assassination because it is one of the best resources available to researchers. Gary Mack happens to be the person there in charge of having access to that information. If someone takes over his job, then it will be a new person I speak to on a regular basis. Gary Mack has been around through many of the events surrounding test carried out in the plaza and has first hand recollections of many things. Gary corrects me from time and to time on certain facts that I had wrong and we do not always agree on the interpretation of the evidence. That doesn't stop me from utilizing such a valuable resource. Try and think about this ... A man would be a complete idiot to stop going to the well for life saving water just because he doesn't like the style of the bucket that he has to drink from!

Let's not forget that there's not a person in the world who makes more money from the Kennedy assassination than Gary Mack, with his white SUV and its vanity plates, or that he holds his position by kissing the same types of city father asses that were complicit in the events in late November, 1963 - if not in Dealey Plaza, then at least in the DPD basement live TV murder of Oswald, and on the billboards against Earl Warren, and the "Wanted for Treason" flyers, General Walker, and the nutburgers that haven't exactly moved away, such as Stan Levinson - Dallas' current version of Clay Shaw, with his Caribbean internet "free trade" front, Gary Mack's benefactor.

Tim Carroll

Do you really have any idea as to how much money Gary Mack makes a year or are you just spouting off about something you know nothing about? Is it because Mack drives an SUV with vanity plates that you based your ridiculous opinion on? Is it because he didn't have time to walk you out in the plaza and point out the correct witness locations for you because you asked him when he was extremely busy ... possibly during the JFK memorial event? Or maybe it's because Gary Mack has drawn conclusions that do not support your own because his test were based on the correct lines of sight and a better understanding of the photographical record? What ever your reasons were for making such an unfounded claim about Gary Mack - you may want to consider trying to use his knowledge of the case to help you advance your own instead of trying to distance yourself from him with the kind of nonsesne that you posted here.

Bill Miller JFK assassination Researcher/Investigator

[Tim Carroll]

Bill Miller obviously cites his constantly repeated relationship with GARY MACK (speaking "2-3 times" per day) to justify his fatuously dismissive and rude comments to others.  Is the rudeness, as Gary Mack puts it, also supported by Gary Mack?  Is Bill Miller Gary Mack's frontman?  There have been too many episodes such as this where it can't work both ways.  Either Bill Miller has Gary Mack's daily support both with regard to the evidence and the behavior, or GARY MACK NEEDS TO GET A CONSCIENCE AND DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM SUCH COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE CRUDITY. 

Tim - Your remarks are the sign of a man who doesn't think things through very well IMO.

Let's not forget that there's not a person in the world who makes more money from the Kennedy assassination than Gary Mack, with his white SUV and its vanity plates, or that he holds his position by kissing the same types of city father asses that were complicit in the events in late November, 1963 - if not in Dealey Plaza, then at least in the DPD basement live TV murder of Oswald, and on the billboards against Earl Warren, and the "Wanted for Treason" flyers, General Walker, and the nutburgers that haven't exactly moved away, such as Stan Levinson - Dallas' current version of Clay Shaw, with his Caribbean internet "free trade" front, Gary Mack's benefactor.

Tim Carroll

What ever your reasons were for making such an unfounded claim about Gary Mack - you may want to consider trying to use his knowledge of the case to help you advance your own instead of trying to distance yourself from him with the kind of nonsesne that you posted here.

Bill Miller JFK assassination Researcher/Investigator

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bill Miller seems to forget making personal attacks against me in GARY MACK'S NAME. Mack is invited again to distance himself from authorizing Bill Miller as his disgusting mouthpiece, or my assertion is valid. Bill Miller is forgetting how he doesn't just use GARY MACK as a resource, but as a big name he can wield to personally attack those he doesn't agree with.

Bill Miller isn't a "Researcher," he's a stalking horse for GARY MACK. So Bill, tell me about Stan Levinson, I dare you.

Tim Carroll

[William Plumlee]

Hey Tim.  When are you going to tell us what you really think?      

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Tosh Plumlee has a refreshing sense of humor, which, at times, is the best one can hope for in life. It's difficult for me today, facing tomorrow's memorial for Gary Webb in Sacramento.

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim: If you see Susan give her and the kids my best. I wish I could be there. I know its hard on all of those who were extra close to Gary and his work. I talked with Maxine and she is going to write a memorial letter in rememberance of Gary and his work. Take care Tosh

[Bill Miller]

Bill Miller isn't a "Researcher," he's a stalking horse for GARY MACK.  So Bill, tell me about Stan Levinson, I dare you.

Tim Carroll

Tim - I have never paid any attention to that name before. Talking about Gary Mack's income and other such nonsense doesn't address the facts of the case or the correct locations and LOS's in the Plaza pertaining to the witnesses and photographers. If you have a JFK related question or remark about the photographical record - I'm happy to hear it.

[Tim Carroll]

Tim - I have never paid any attention to that name before. Talking about Gary Mack's income and other such nonsense doesn't address the facts of the case or the correct locations and LOS's in the Plaza pertaining to the witnesses and photographers. If you have a JFK related question or remark about the photographical record - I'm happy to hear it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GARY MACK'S income is indicative of what how much and to whom GARY MACK sells himself. That is a most pertinent "JFK related" issue. As with Wategate and Deep Throat's admonition, "follow the money." Check it out: Stan Levinson.

Tim Carroll

[Jack White]

Tim - I have never paid any attention to that name before. Talking about Gary Mack's income and other such nonsense doesn't address the facts of the case or the correct locations and LOS's in the Plaza pertaining to the witnesses and photographers. If you have a JFK related question or remark about the photographical record - I'm happy to hear it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GARY MACK'S income is indicative of what how much and to whom GARY MACK sells himself. That is a most pertinent "JFK related" issue. As with Wategate and Deep Throat's admonition, "follow the money." Check it out: Stan Levinson.

Tim Carroll

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim...Who is Stan Levinson? I Googled the name and only

found a jazz musician.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

Tim...Who is Stan Levinson? I Googled the name and only

found a jazz musician.

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim likes to say things without caring to get his facts straight beforehand ... much the same way he did with trying to locate Orville Nix's filming location. Even if he had not found Groden or if Groden pointed over to a particular spot where Nix was - how hard would it have been to align the notch in the wall and Zapruder's pedetsal with background objects seen in the Nix frame so to have the LOS correct. So r5ather than to admit his shortcomings in his classic gunman investigation he has now attempted to divert attention to my corresponding to Gary Mack, thus causing him to say things about Mack that are simply not true.

I personally wanted to know more about what Tim was talking about since he brought up the kind of car Gary Mack drives and the income Gary makes. I knew Mack had been offered a really good job with the Museum not long ago, but turned it down because he wanted to stay in his area of interest - the JFK assassination material ... so I thought I'd ask Gary for myself what it was that Tim was talking about. This is the response I got back from Gary Mack ...

Hi Bill,

Thanks for mentioning this - I haven't been following that thread. Where to begin? Well, I have never had a white car in my life, nor does my current car have vanity plates. My Museum salary is very much in line with the Curator position at other institutions. I answer 5-10 calls/emails/letters every day about the assassination without regard to who is asking or why. I don't know, and have never heard of, at least that I recall, Stan Levinson or Stan Levenson, who happens to own a prominent PR firm in Dallas: http://www.levensonpr.com/stan_profile.htm Nor do I believe the "classic gunman" image is a person, and when Tim asked what I thought, I told him so. Oh well.......pass this on if you wish.

Gary Mack