Priceless JFK History at the Minnesota State Fair

[Pamela Brown]

Donner and I are off to the fair. The JFK replica limo is there, along with

other JFK memorabilia which will be auctioned. If you are anywhere in the

area, come by and see the limo, and meet Nick Ceicelli, its owner. And take

measurements, as this is the only limo available to the public with the

configuration of SS-100-X on 11.22.63.

Feel free to make requests, as we will be returning to the fair two or three

times in the next ten days.

http://www.edenprairienews.com/news/entert...state-fair-5844

[Duke Lane]

Reading the article, I'd have to say, yes, that's the same show that my friend "Roy Kellerman" will be in!

[Pamela Brown]

Reading the article, I'd have to say, yes, that's the same show that my friend "Roy Kellerman" will be in!

What article? What 'show'? What color is the sky in your world?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Hi Pamela. Please pardon my ignorance about the limo and sources related thereto: Can I find authoritative information online about the engine capacity, number of horsepower and the acceleration power of the limo?

When newspapers review a new car's performance, they often talk about the car's ability to go from zero to 60 MPH in X seconds as a benchmark of performance. I am looking for that kind of information about the limo as it was configured on 11/22/63. You may have discussed this somewhere and I missed it, but I would greatly appreciate it if you could point me to an authoritative source of such information. Thanks.

[Duke Lane]

What article? What 'show'? What color is the sky in your world?

Ouch! That was unnecessary.

I'd have to guess that I was talking about the article you provided a link to the article "Replica JFK Limo comes to State Fair" in the Eden Prairie News online. The show, I'm thinking, is the one referred to at the end of the article, in the sentence reading "McElwain-Brown was also interviewed at the Henry Ford Museum for an upcoming Discovery Channel program set to air on Nov. 4."

The sky is yellow and the sun is blue. Roy Kellerman is portrayed by a Dallas-area researcher.

[Pamela Brown]

What article? What 'show'? What color is the sky in your world?

Ouch! That was unnecessary.

I'd have to guess that I was talking about the article you provided a link to the article "Replica JFK Limo comes to State Fair" in the Eden Prairie News online. The show, I'm thinking, is the one referred to at the end of the article, in the sentence reading "McElwain-Brown was also interviewed at the Henry Ford Museum for an upcoming Discovery Channel program set to air on Nov. 4."

The sky is yellow and the sun is blue. Roy Kellerman is portrayed by a Dallas-area researcher.

Your speculations are way off. The program consists of a few different things, such as an interview with David Talbot wo wrote BROTHERS, and footage of the limo (using the replica limo) of Dealey Plaza, Love Field, Parkland and the White House Garage (simulated to look like). They will be following the timeline of the assassination. In addition, there is an experiment regarding the firing of Z-313 from, I think, two different locations. Then there are other interviews, including me as myself and Bob Casey, curator or Henry Ford Museum, done at Dearborn in front of the rebuilt limo. Nobody will be portraying any historical figures. Of course, they are also trotting out Gary Mack, who has had some say in the program itself, so we'll have to see just what the slant and conclusions end up being. I am hopeful that there will be objectivity, but have my reservations.

[Duke Lane]

Your speculations are way off. The program consists of a few different things, such as ... footage of the limo (using the replica limo) of Dealey Plaza, Love Field, Parkland and the White House Garage (simulated to look like) [emphasis added]. They will be following the timeline of the assassination. In addition, there is an experiment regarding the firing of Z-313 from, I think, two different locations [emphasis added]. Then there are other interviews, including me as myself and Bob Casey, curator or Henry Ford Museum, done at Dearborn in front of the rebuilt limo. Nobody will be portraying any historical figures [emphasis added]. Of course, they are also trotting out Gary Mack, who has had some say in the program itself, so we'll have to see just what the slant and conclusions end up being. I am hopeful that there will be objectivity, but have my reservations.

I guess we will see.

If I recall correctly, the "White House Garage (simulated to look like)" was at Executive (formerly Redbird) Airport. I cannot imagine how there could be any "experiment regarding the firing of Z-313 from ... two different locations" if, as you say "nobody will be portraying any historical figures," since I am reasonably confident that JFK and Jackie didn't show up for the filming, as I am most of the other "historical figures" did not either, most - of course - being dead ... and Nellie not being quite up to it. So, if there is any footage of, say, a shot from the south knoll, then that perspective could ONLY have been shot with peope "portraying ... historical figures."

You can check to see if the limo went to Dallas. Ask who was in the passenger seat, who "played" Kellerman, and who also drove it. My "speculations" are not "way off." They rarely are. I think there is no reason for you to suggest that they are just because you don't know me and clearly don't consider my expertise on par with your own. FWIW, I share your concerns.

[Pamela Brown]

If I recall correctly, the "White House Garage (simulated to look like)" was at Executive (formerly Redbird) Airport. I cannot imagine how there could be any "experiment regarding the firing of Z-313 from ... two different locations" if, as you say "nobody will be portraying any historical figures," since I am reasonably confident that JFK and Jackie didn't show up for the filming, as I am most of the other "historical figures" did not either, most - of course - being dead ... and Nellie not being quite up to it. So, if there is any footage of, say, a shot from the south knoll, then that perspective could ONLY have been shot with peope "portraying ... historical figures."

Part of the problem in communicating with you is that your rambling seems very garbled. This is not a dramatic program. Nobody is 'playing' anybody. There are apparently people used as sit-ins in some of the footage. Or I should say, if this ends up being a drama I am going to be really disappointed.

Let me give you some additional background information -- originally, a section of the program was going to be shot at the National Archives. I asked my congressman, Jim Ramsted, to write a letter of introduction for the producer of the program and myself, to mentor us to the head archivist at NARA. We based our request to view the windshield currently at NARA on the fact that a contact at the Ford Motor Company had determined there might be a number etched on the windshield glass, which we might then have been able to track back, to see if it was the same one installed in the car that was delivered to the WHG in June, 1961.

In addition, James Hosty had claimed, both in his book AO and in interview with me, that he saw more than one defect on the windshield when he viewed it prior to giving his WC testimony. In order to have any chance of being allowed access to the windshield, you have to prove that new research will come from it. We thought we would be successful. After all, who could turn down a wonderful limousine historian working with a DC producer, mentored by a respected congressman? But, apparently, the chief archivist went running down to the windshield to see if there was a number, said they found none, and decided there was no need for us to view the windshield. I am still amazed at their brazen refusal. However, when that segment of the program died, the producer asked me what I thought might replace it. My immediate response was "go to the car".

Originally, there had been some discussion with the owner of the limo, Nick Ciacelli, about shooting footage in the Detroit area, where the car has been housed. That would have been fairly reasonable in cost, though not as exciting as shipping the car to Dallas. With the windshield segment gone, the path opened up for the limo footage to be shot on location in Dallas, where it was for a week. Though I am at the MN State Fair nearly every day, with the limo and the amazing JFK Remembered exhibit, I have not yet had time to ask Nick for details of the filming. He has a display up about the program which does include some stills with characters in them. I will ask more in the next day or so.

There were about 10,000 people visiting the exhibit yesterday, and probably more today. The line went far down the sidewalk on Underwood Street. It is amazing to watch people of all ages and backgrounds come in and be drawn into the tv footage, photos of JFK's life, of Jackie and John Jr., JFK's jewelry box with family seal, filled with his cufflinks, sketches that he drew on the flight to Dallas, a sweater, not to mention a duplicate of Jackie's pink suit and JFK's suit from one of the movies the limo was used in. There are countless additional things too. And of course, the limo. There is literally nothing quite like it.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Pamela McElwain-Brown

[Pamela Brown]

Hi Pamela. Please pardon my ignorance about the limo and sources related thereto: Can I find authoritative information online about the engine capacity, number of horsepower and the acceleration power of the limo?

When newspapers review a new car's performance, they often talk about the car's ability to go from zero to 60 MPH in X seconds as a benchmark of performance. I am looking for that kind of information about the limo as it was configured on 11/22/63. You may have discussed this somewhere and I missed it, but I would greatly appreciate it if you could point me to an authoritative source of such information. Thanks.

Hi Raymond,

The limo had a stock v-8 430 cubic-inch, 300 hp engine. There were modifications made to the engine, such as a special fuel pump to enable it to stay at low speeds during parades without vapor locking.

It is difficult to get specific information about the car because everyone at FMC claims "national security" even 45 years later. This, of course, includes the 0-60 seconds benchmark. We can't really use those of a stock 61 LCC (which I will dig up and post) because the limo had heavy heating and duel-air-conditioning systems, plus heavy steel plates added to the front and rear side rails, so that SS-100-X weighed 7,800 lbs. without passengers. We might think it would be sluggish because of those circumstances, but as we can see from the Z-film, the limo lunged forward like a gazelle when Greer finally gunned the engine, just as Clint Hill had a handhold on the trunk.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Pamela McElwain-Brown

[David G. Healy]

If I recall correctly, the "White House Garage (simulated to look like)" was at Executive (formerly Redbird) Airport. I cannot imagine how there could be any "experiment regarding the firing of Z-313 from ... two different locations" if, as you say "nobody will be portraying any historical figures," since I am reasonably confident that JFK and Jackie didn't show up for the filming, as I am most of the other "historical figures" did not either, most - of course - being dead ... and Nellie not being quite up to it. So, if there is any footage of, say, a shot from the south knoll, then that perspective could ONLY have been shot with peope "portraying ... historical figures."

Part of the problem in communicating with you is that your rambling seems very garbled. This is not a dramatic program. Nobody is 'playing' anybody. There are apparently people used as sit-ins in some of the footage. Or I should say, if this ends up being a drama I am going to be really disappointed.

Let me give you some additional background information -- originally, a section of the program was going to be shot at the National Archives. I asked my congressman, Jim Ramsted, to write a letter of introduction for the producer of the program and myself, to mentor us to the head archivist at NARA. We based our request to view the windshield currently at NARA on the fact that a contact at the Ford Motor Company had determined there might be a number etched on the windshield glass, which we might then have been able to track back, to see if it was the same one installed in the car that was delivered to the WHG in June, 1961.

In addition, James Hosty had claimed, both in his book AO and in interview with me, that he saw more than one defect on the windshield when he viewed it prior to giving his WC testimony. In order to have any chance of being allowed access to the windshield, you have to prove that new research will come from it. We thought we would be successful. After all, who could turn down a wonderful limousine historian working with a DC producer, mentored by a respected congressman? But, apparently, the chief archivist went running down to the windshield to see if there was a number, said they found none, and decided there was no need for us to view the windshield. I am still amazed at their brazen refusal. However, when that segment of the program died, the producer asked me what I thought might replace it. My immediate response was "go to the car".

Originally, there had been some discussion with the owner of the limo, Nick Ciacelli, about shooting footage in the Detroit area, where the car has been housed. That would have been fairly reasonable in cost, though not as exciting as shipping the car to Dallas. With the windshield segment gone, the path opened up for the limo footage to be shot on location in Dallas, where it was for a week. Though I am at the MN State Fair nearly every day, with the limo and the amazing JFK Remembered exhibit, I have not yet had time to ask Nick for details of the filming. He has a display up about the program which does include some stills with characters in them. I will ask more in the next day or so.

There were about 10,000 people visiting the exhibit yesterday, and probably more today. The line went far down the sidewalk on Underwood Street. It is amazing to watch people of all ages and backgrounds come in and be drawn into the tv footage, photos of JFK's life, of Jackie and John Jr., JFK's jewelry box with family seal, filled with his cufflinks, sketches that he drew on the flight to Dallas, a sweater, not to mention a duplicate of Jackie's pink suit and JFK's suit from one of the movies the limo was used in. There are countless additional things too. And of course, the limo. There is literally nothing quite like it.

when it comes to JFK assassination investigation: a replica, is a replica, is a replica.... frankly, all you need is the Zapruder film.... without that, the Limo is moot. What does a replica limo tell us about a through and through windshield hole?

[Pamela Brown]

If I recall correctly, the "White House Garage (simulated to look like)" was at Executive (formerly Redbird) Airport. I cannot imagine how there could be any "experiment regarding the firing of Z-313 from ... two different locations" if, as you say "nobody will be portraying any historical figures," since I am reasonably confident that JFK and Jackie didn't show up for the filming, as I am most of the other "historical figures" did not either, most - of course - being dead ... and Nellie not being quite up to it. So, if there is any footage of, say, a shot from the south knoll, then that perspective could ONLY have been shot with peope "portraying ... historical figures."

Part of the problem in communicating with you is that your rambling seems very garbled. This is not a dramatic program. Nobody is 'playing' anybody. There are apparently people used as sit-ins in some of the footage. Or I should say, if this ends up being a drama I am going to be really disappointed.

Let me give you some additional background information -- originally, a section of the program was going to be shot at the National Archives. I asked my congressman, Jim Ramsted, to write a letter of introduction for the producer of the program and myself, to mentor us to the head archivist at NARA. We based our request to view the windshield currently at NARA on the fact that a contact at the Ford Motor Company had determined there might be a number etched on the windshield glass, which we might then have been able to track back, to see if it was the same one installed in the car that was delivered to the WHG in June, 1961.

In addition, James Hosty had claimed, both in his book AO and in interview with me, that he saw more than one defect on the windshield when he viewed it prior to giving his WC testimony. In order to have any chance of being allowed access to the windshield, you have to prove that new research will come from it. We thought we would be successful. After all, who could turn down a wonderful limousine historian working with a DC producer, mentored by a respected congressman? But, apparently, the chief archivist went running down to the windshield to see if there was a number, said they found none, and decided there was no need for us to view the windshield. I am still amazed at their brazen refusal. However, when that segment of the program died, the producer asked me what I thought might replace it. My immediate response was "go to the car".

Originally, there had been some discussion with the owner of the limo, Nick Ciacelli, about shooting footage in the Detroit area, where the car has been housed. That would have been fairly reasonable in cost, though not as exciting as shipping the car to Dallas. With the windshield segment gone, the path opened up for the limo footage to be shot on location in Dallas, where it was for a week. Though I am at the MN State Fair nearly every day, with the limo and the amazing JFK Remembered exhibit, I have not yet had time to ask Nick for details of the filming. He has a display up about the program which does include some stills with characters in them. I will ask more in the next day or so.

There were about 10,000 people visiting the exhibit yesterday, and probably more today. The line went far down the sidewalk on Underwood Street. It is amazing to watch people of all ages and backgrounds come in and be drawn into the tv footage, photos of JFK's life, of Jackie and John Jr., JFK's jewelry box with family seal, filled with his cufflinks, sketches that he drew on the flight to Dallas, a sweater, not to mention a duplicate of Jackie's pink suit and JFK's suit from one of the movies the limo was used in. There are countless additional things too. And of course, the limo. There is literally nothing quite like it.

when it comes to JFK assassination investigation: a replica, is a replica, is a replica.... frankly, all you need is the Zapruder film.... without that, the Limo is moot. What does a replica limo tell us about a through and through windshield hole?

Your logic is analogous to that of the WC who said that if something didn't involve LHO as the long-nut-gunman it wasn't worth investigating.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

We can't really use those of a stock 61 LCC (which I will dig up and post) because the limo had heavy heating and duel-air-conditioning systems, plus heavy steel plates added to the front and rear side rails, so that SS-100-X weighed 7,800 lbs. without passengers.

Thank you, Pamela. I would appreciate the specs for the basic model. It is astonishing that information about the Limo's acceleration rate is still being withheld.

[Pamela Brown]

LC Performance Portfolio, 1961-69, p.27

0-30 mph -- 4.4 sec

0-45 -- 8.4

0-60 -- 13.5

[Pamela Brown]

We can't really use those of a stock 61 LCC (which I will dig up and post) because the limo had heavy heating and duel-air-conditioning systems, plus heavy steel plates added to the front and rear side rails, so that SS-100-X weighed 7,800 lbs. without passengers.

Thank you, Pamela. I would appreciate the specs for the basic model. It is astonishing that information about the Limo's acceleration rate is still being withheld.

You might appreciate my response to this man after being refused information -- I said, a President died in your car. The case is still not solved. You need all the help you can get.

[Mike Williams]

We can't really use those of a stock 61 LCC (which I will dig up and post) because the limo had heavy heating and duel-air-conditioning systems, plus heavy steel plates added to the front and rear side rails, so that SS-100-X weighed 7,800 lbs. without passengers.

Thank you, Pamela. I would appreciate the specs for the basic model. It is astonishing that information about the Limo's acceleration rate is still being withheld.

You might appreciate my response to this man after being refused information -- I said, a President died in your car. The case is still not solved. You need all the help you can get.

Truer words Pamela!

Its amazing that they still withhold that info.....

Mike