Why Oswald is Innocent

[Duke Lane]

... Disappointing to see so few researchers commenting on mr D.Lane's posts. I am sure I am not the only one that find them fascinating. For instance, which else explanations is out there to the movements/statements of Bonnie Ray or Jack D.?,- just to mention two.

It is endlessly more fascinating to further analyze that which has been discussed in depth many times before, and much easier to fixate on what couldn't have been than what else must therefore have been. Proving as we might that Oswald didn't do it moves us no farther forward toward discerning who did do it. I imagine a "Close to Home" cartoon panel with two Sherlock Holmesian detectives closely examining some clue with a magnifying glass while oblivious to the murderous mayhem that rages around them.

I don't put too much credence in anybody being a "lookout," as that would be a pretty rinky dink operation, when I think they had everything covered from the get go. Oswald was going to be the patsy no matter what happened, even if he had an alibi or there was proof of conspiracy.

... Thanks to Duke Lane's analysis of the activites of Jack D. at the crucial time we can now see that either

1) he saw LHO go down the stairs and lied - can't believe he would do that if he wasn't involved himself - if he is = conspiracy (maybe he was the shooter!)

2) He saw no-one - so shooters on the 6th Floor were still there until after he took the lift to the first floor - therefore shooter is NOT Oswald

3) He was involved as a lookout for the shooter(s) = conspiracy

Big question is, given the importance of his tesimony and his location at the crucial time........what the hell were the Warren Commission doing? He was the crucial witness, unless he lied about where he was and what he did.

One could come to the conclusion, based on some comments, that the shooter(s) could have shot right out in the open with impunity because "they had everything covered from the get go" and would simply state that what everyone saw wasn't what happened, that there was no need to ensure his or their own anonymity. A lookout? Bah! That would be for rinky dink amateurs! Those who killed Kennedy were all-knowing and all-seeing, why would they worry about getting caught? They'd simply have been spirited away, their very existence denied, no matter who or how many saw them. The plot was that good. What was I thinking?!?

Jack had the advantage, if you will, of being "slow." If you asked a question that he answered with a non-sequitur ("Where were you, Jack?" ... "I'm pretty sure it was after lunch. I ate lunch on the first floor"), it could be - and was - written off as being a part of his "condition." Some went so far as to call him "retarded," while Roy Truly characterized him as having what we might call "issues" today, but "average intelligence for the [mindless?] work he was doing," to wit:

Mr. Belin

. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct?

Mr. Truly

. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin

. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?

Mr. Truly

. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.

I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit---maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been.

Mr. Belin

. Would you consider him of average intelligence?

Mr. Truly

. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence. (3H237)

Truly apparently went farther in describing Jack to the Secret Service, as noted in their report of January 8, 1964, that as Dougherty was being questioned by them, he

... seemed to be very confused about times and places. Mr. Truly furnished the informaton that, although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is

mentally retarded

and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and has been

especially confused since the assassination

. Dougherty

therefore was not questioned further.

(

CD87, page 781

)

"Especially confused since the assassination." Really? Why would that be? He couldn't have been shaken up, traumatized as it were, because he neither saw nor heard nor experienced anything other than a search of the building in which he worked. He didn't know there were gunshots; he said he thought he heard a backfire. Oswald didn't run into him after the shooting, and he never even saw Oswald despite being "ten feet west of the west elevator," directly in Oswald's supposed path. Life, according to what Jack told everyone, was just plain hunky-dory and he simply went about his business "getting some stock" until the cops came into the building.

Then what, he went into shock? After cops asked him where Truly was and he took them to him upstairs, the events overcame his fragile "emotional makeup," he got "flustered," and remained that way ever since? Or perhaps had slightly selective memory or - worse - might've come unravelled under more intense questioning and said things he shouldn't have and upset the neat little applecart of Oswald's sole guilt? What if he couldn't remember what it was he was supposed to say, or what he wasn't supposed to know?

He's "retarded," he's "confused," he's an imbecile who couldn't tell you the right time of day or where he's standing right now. Oh, okay, well then, I guess we don't need to question him since he'd probably get it wrong anyway. Well, hey, thanks for your time, Jack, you can go now.

Can you hear that collective sigh of relief somewhere? Whew! They think he's an idiot. They won't ask him questions. And Truly - if he was involved - wasn't a worry since the man had chutzpah and wasn't likely to screw up: heck, he even told the FBI where to get off when they came along saying that they wanted to fingerprint the employees. "The hell you say! Maybe some of them, but not all of them, and I'll tell you which ones to do." The FBI acquiesced. And everyone left Jack alone.

Given the scenario I've laid out and allowing for its validity, is it any wonder that Jack became "especially confused after the assassination?" Or, for that matter, is it any great surprise that Truly would give this testimony:

Mr. Mccloy

. From what you know of these young men [bonnie Ray Williams, Hank Norman and Junior Jarman] who testified before you today, are they trustworthy?

Mr. Truly

. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have picked up very well. They are doing their work well.

Yeah ... like maybe they felt that they were out of danger?

Here's a snippet about the freight elevator that I'd forgotten Truly had made:

Mr. Belin

. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.

Mr. Truly

. No. When I came down from the second floor - from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.

Mr. Belin

. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there?

Mr. Truly

. No, sir.

Mr. Belin

. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?

Mr. Truly

. I didn't look.

Mr. Belin

. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?

Mr. Truly

. No, sir.

Mr. Belin

.

And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.

Mr. Truly

. No, sir;

I don't believe so, because I think I would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side.

Mr. Belin

. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?

Mr. Truly

. I think so, yes, sir.

As we started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it at an angle.

Mr. Belin

. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth floor, or were you facing the east?

Mr. Truly

. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only intent on getting to the seventh floor.

Mr. Belin

.

So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or not an elevator was there?

Mr. Truly

.

I cannot.

Mr. Belin

. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?

Mr. Truly

. No, sir.

Mr. Belin

.

Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?

Mr. Truly

.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin

. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?

Mr. Truly

. I was not aware of it.

Mr. Belin

. All right. I have no further questions. (3H241)

Of course, Truly had only minutes before (3H229) remarked about the "commotion" he and Baker were making in the enclosed stairwell: asked how he explained the freight elevator not being on the fifth floor when he and Baker had gotten there shortly after he'd seen the bottoms of both elevators on the fifth floor when looking up the elevator shaft, Truly said that he "didn't know," and speculated that "I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell."

Despite that, Truly ruled out the possibility of the elevator having gone up to the sixth or seventh floor "because I think I would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side." Perhaps so, but that would only be if the elevator was running and not stopped, right? Although he is never asked the obvious question why he didn't remark about the missing elevator to Baker (who thought, even if Truly didn't, that there was a killer in the building), he did volunteer that "as we [he and Baker] started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it [the freight elevator] at an angle," yet despite claiming to have seen the top of the freight elevator - that is, below him on the fourth floor - Truly claimed that he "could not say" whether or not the freight elevator was on the sixth floor when he and Baker had passed there.

Are we lacking in some consistency here? Where was opposing counsel when we really needed one here? Oh yeah: there was no need for one! On cross:

Counsel

. Mr. Truly, you testified that you did not see the west freight elevator descending or on any other floor as you went up the stairs with Officer Baker to the fifth floor, is that correct?

Mr. Truly

. That is correct.

Counsel

. You also testified that, because of the noise the two of you were making on the stairwell that you don't think you'd have been able to hear the elevator operting while you were making your way up the stairs, is that also correct?

Mr. Truly

. It is. Yes, sir.

Counsel

. But when you got to the fifth floor, it was no longer there as it had been earlier when you'd looked up the shaft?

Mr. Truly

. That's right.

Counsel

. So it had apparently been being operated while you were coming up the stairs even though you couldn't hear it, is that right?

Mr. Truly

. It is.

Counsel

. But you didn't hear it -

Mr. Truly

. No, sir.

Counsel

. ... And you didn't see it -

Mr. Truly

. No, sir.

Counsel

. ... coming down, is that right?

Mr. Truly

. That's right.

Counsel

. But if it had gone UP instead of down, you wouldn't have seen it, would you?

Mr. Truly

. No, I don't think I would have.

Counsel

. So how is it that you told Mr. Belin that you didn't believe it had gone up to the sixth or seventh floor if it wasn't on the fifth floor, it wasn't on any floor below, and you couldn't have heard it because of the noise you and Officer Baker were making on the stairs? Where else did it go?

Mr. Truly

. I told him that, as we started up from the fifth floor, I saw the top of it at an angle.

Counsel

. You saw the top of the freight elevator below you as you started up on the east passenger elevator from the fifth floor?

Mr. Truly

. That's what I told him. Yes, sir.

Counsel

. Didn't you also say that the back of the passenger elevator was solid metal? It is, isn't it?

Mr. Truly

. Yes, sir.

Counsel

. So how did you see the top of the freight elevator through the solid metal wall of the passenger elevator?

Mr. Truly

. Well, I - I saw it before we'd actually gotten on the elevator.

Counsel

. So, having seen the top of the elevator below you, presumably on the fourth floor, how is it you "cannot say" whether or not it was on the sixth floor if you'd already seen it on the fourth floor? You did see the top of the elevator below you, did you not? I mean, you didn't see the top of the elevator ABOVE you, did you?

Mr. Truly

. No, sir. I mean, yes, sir, I saw it. It was below me.

Counsel

. Are you certain?

Mr. Truly

. Yes, I think I am. I was intent on getting upstairs to the seventh floor. Officer Baker thought there was someone shooting from up there. I wasn't really paying attention to other things at the time.

Counsel

. So Officer Baker felt that there was someone shooting at the President from inside your building? I believe you testified that he did.

Mr. Truly

. Yes, sir, he did.

Counsel

. But you did not?

Mr. Truly

. No, I didn't.

Counsel

. So when you saw the bottoms of both elevators at the fifth floor when you'd looked up the elevator shaft, found that it was gone from the fifth floor when you'd gotten there, and saw the top of it below you as you got onto the other elevator, did you mention that to Officer Baker? That the elevator that was there was now gone?

Mr. Truly

. No, I did not.

Counsel

. Why not?

Mr. Truly

. Well, I -

Counsel

. Officer Baker thought that there was someone inside your building shooting at the President of the United States, thought that he'd been on one of the upper floors; correct?

Mr. Truly

. That's correct.

Counsel

. And both elevators were on one of the upper floors which someone could conceivably have come DOWN to in the time it took you to get UP to them if they were on the roof, as Officer Baker thought, is that also correct?

Mr. Truly

. Yes, I -

Counsel

. And you saw the elevator apparently DESCENDING from one of those upper floors, presumably with someone in it, someone who could have been who Officer Baker thought was shooting from the roof, and you said nothing to the officer? Nothing at all?

Mr. Truly

. No, sir. I -

Counsel

. Again, the question, sir: why not?

As William Whaley said on another occasion in another context, "a good defense lawyer could take me apart." Truly might well have found himself in a similar bind if anyone had been and adversary to his answers.

[William Kelly]

Another Youtube clip with interviews of Marion Baker and Roy S. Truly:

(Interviews from 2:18)

Disappointing to see so few researchers commenting on mr D.Lane's posts. I am sure I am not the only one that find them fascinating. For instance, which else explanations is out there to the movements/statements of Bonnie Ray or Jack D.?,- just to mention two.

Thanks for that interview clip with Baker and Truly. Will try to transcribe it when I get a chance.

I don't know why more people don't respond to Duke or any thread.

As for Duke's "explanations," it is fun to speculate, but he does have a tendency to go off on tangents and if you can say something in one sentence he'll make it a few paragraphs.

I think you should know more about Bonnie Ray or Jack Dougherty before you start making them lookouts or shooters.

As Duke puts it, "It is endlessly more fascinating to further analyze that which has been discussed in depth many times before, and much easier to fixate on what couldn't have been than what else must therefore have been. Proving as we might that Oswald didn't do it moves us no farther forward toward discerning who did do it. I imagine a "Close to Home" cartoon panel with two Sherlock Holmesian detectives closely examining some clue with a magnifying glass while oblivious to the murderous mayhem that rages around them....One could come to the conclusion, based on some comments, that the shooter(s) could have shot right out in the open with impunity because "they had everything covered from the get go" and would simply state that what everyone saw wasn't what happened, that there was no need to ensure his or their own anonymity. A lookout? Bah! That would be for rinky dink amateurs! Those who killed Kennedy were all-knowing and all-seeing, why would they worry about getting caught? They'd simply have been spirited away, their very existence denied, no matter who or how many saw them. The plot was that good. What was I thinking?!?"

But that's exactly what did happen - I don't see any mahem on the Sixth Floor after the shooting.

The shooter didn't run anywhere, especially down the steps, where he would have bumped into Dougherty, the two secretaries and Truly and Baker. Whatever happened, and whereever they went, it does seem like they simply dissapeared.

They did get away without being seen, unless you allow for workers to have seen them and lied about it.

Oswald, the accused assassin, certainly got away from the scene clean, and maybe the real shooter was an employee too, or maybe a cop, like others have suspected of the Grassy Knoll shooter. In which case a cop would just hang around waiting for other cops to join him so he could blend in and then out of the building. How's that for speculatin'?

And Duke does point out that Luke Mooney, one of the first cops in the building after Baker, did see two officers descending the steps, who have neither filed reports or testified, or even been identified.

In reviewing Mooney's original affidavit, he mentions two other officers - Sam Webster and Billy Joe Victory, as being in the building, and neither of them are listed as having filed reports or testified.

As for the most intriguing analysis of all of these issues, check out Don Thomas' article, posted at Mary Ferrell, which details most of the issues and provides photos and diagrams to illustrate the pertienent points, though it's a shame that he has to do so in response to Bugliosi's BS.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/...s_the_Testimony

Also, it would be valuable if anybody can come up with any clear photographs of the elevators.

BK

Edited April 1, 2009 by William Kelly

[Duke Lane]

As for Duke's "explanations," it is fun to speculate, but he does have a tendency to go off on tangents and if you can say something in one sentence he'll make it a few paragraphs.

Well, no argument there: "taciturn" is not a word often applied to me!

As Duke puts it, "... One could come to the conclusion, based on some comments, that the shooter(s) could have shot right out in the open with impunity because "they had everything covered from the get go" and would simply state that what everyone saw wasn't what happened, that there was no need to ensure his or their own anonymity. A lookout? Bah! That would be for rinky dink amateurs! Those who killed Kennedy were all-knowing and all-seeing, why would they worry about getting caught? They'd simply have been spirited away, their very existence denied, no matter who or how many saw them. The plot was that good. What was I thinking?!?"

But that's exactly what did happen - I don't see any mahem [sic] on the Sixth Floor after the shooting. The shooter didn't run anywhere, especially down the steps, where he would have bumped into Dougherty, the two secretaries and Truly and Baker. Whatever happened, and whereever they went, it does seem like they simply dissapeared.

I think I'd rather speculate - and involve humans - than postulate a scenario in which things happened by will, without planning, without coordination, unassisted and unobserved by a person or persons unknown who had the good fortune to be able to "simply disappear" afterward.

One could easily conclude that Peter Graves, Rod Serling and Gene Rodenberry were the real masterminds behind the assassination, or that events in Dealey Plaza were not only stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine!

I tend to think that the scenario I drew is more credible than disappearing all-knowing killers, who, incidentally, were able to maintain their cloak of invisibility during the entire time Bonnie Ray Williams and Jack Dougherty were on the sixth floor, including the time Bonnie Ray was supposedly alone there to within two or three minutes of the shooting, which in turn was two or three minutes after the parade was scheduled to pass the TSBD.

If Hank and Junior didn't go upstairs until after they'd heard that the motorcade was on Main Street, and Bonnie Ray didn't come down from the sixth floor to the fifth until after Hank and Junior had gotten to the fifth floor front windows (as each of them testified), and if Jack was working on the fifth and sixth floors during the lunch hour that he normally did not work during, then later in the direct path of the assassin's supposed escape, I find it a much easier conclusion to reach that all of them were aware of the shooters' presence - and lied about it - than that the shooters were able to pull some sort of "disappearing act" or time everything so precisely that nobody had a chance to see them.

If those things are true and the shooter was Oswald, then there was no reason to lie about it, and indeed, the simplest solution would have been for each of them to say that that they'd seen Oswald doing the things he was purported to do.

Since they didn't, we are left to conclude that that nobody wanted to admit they saw, and thus incriminate, the dead Oswald; or that despite their proximities to the locations and events that apparently took place, they saw nothing because there was nothing to see; or that they saw things that they didn't admit to and weren't going to talk about ... because the actual fact is that human beings cannot "simply disappear."

So it makes perfect sense to postulate that the killers acted with utter impunity because they knew both that they'd never be seen or caught, and that even if they were, they'd be turned loose in favor of the patsy's capture. They didn't need anyone on the inside because they knew everything that was going on inside the TSBD (and accomplices are only for amateurs anyway), and anyone who saw them would never say so, but if they happened to, it would never be recorded, and even if they were identified or captured, they'd never actually be "caught" because of their cloaks of invisibility and, should those fail, the fact that everybody was in on it.

... While suggesting that anyone aided and abetted is clearly nonsensical.

[Peter McGuire]

I don't know why more people don't respond to Duke or any thread.

As for Duke's "explanations," it is fun to speculate, but he does have a tendency to go off on tangents and if you can say something in one sentence he'll make it a few paragraphs.

BK

I think Duke's scenerio has helped everyone understand what happened in the building in those crucial minutes after the assassination. If the following can be defended, no more needs to be said. I also believe that this issue seems to be the latest aspect of the assassination that the defenders have given their spin.

"The proof that Oswald was not there is the fact that none of the four men upstairs who were on the fifth and/or sixth floors said that they had seen him there, which they absolutely must have if he was there. Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, in a position where he would have seen - and probably did see - whoever was in the "sniper's nest" area. Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" - that is, directly in the path of the fleeing assassin (which scenario was only necessary if Oswald was the shooter having to hurry downstairs to meet Baker & Truly in the second floor lunchroom within 90 seconds) - and was not run over by Oswald as he had to have been."

As usual, they take the "look at this scenerio ( cartoons, drawings and the like) you see, Oswald COULD have done it." Never mind, as has been the case from the beginning , WHO ELSE could have done it.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Peter McGuire

[William Kelly]

As for Duke's "explanations," it is fun to speculate, but he does have a tendency to go off on tangents and if you can say something in one sentence he'll make it a few paragraphs.

Well, no argument there: "taciturn" is not a word often applied to me!

As Duke puts it, "... One could come to the conclusion, based on some comments, that the shooter(s) could have shot right out in the open with impunity because "they had everything covered from the get go" and would simply state that what everyone saw wasn't what happened, that there was no need to ensure his or their own anonymity. A lookout? Bah! That would be for rinky dink amateurs! Those who killed Kennedy were all-knowing and all-seeing, why would they worry about getting caught? They'd simply have been spirited away, their very existence denied, no matter who or how many saw them. The plot was that good. What was I thinking?!?"

But that's exactly what did happen - I don't see any mahem [sic] on the Sixth Floor after the shooting. The shooter didn't run anywhere, especially down the steps, where he would have bumped into Dougherty, the two secretaries and Truly and Baker. Whatever happened, and whereever they went, it does seem like they simply dissapeared.

I think I'd rather speculate - and involve humans - than postulate a scenario in which things happened by will, without planning, without coordination, unassisted and unobserved by a person or persons unknown who had the good fortune to be able to "simply disappear" afterward.

One could easily conclude that Peter Graves, Rod Serling and Gene Rodenberry were the real masterminds behind the assassination, or that events in Dealey Plaza were not only stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine!

I tend to think that the scenario I drew is more credible than disappearing all-knowing killers, who, incidentally, were able to maintain their cloak of invisibility during the entire time Bonnie Ray Williams and Jack Dougherty were on the sixth floor, including the time Bonnie Ray was supposedly alone there to within two or three minutes of the shooting, which in turn was two or three minutes after the parade was scheduled to pass the TSBD.

If Hank and Junior didn't go upstairs until after they'd heard that the motorcade was on Main Street, and Bonnie Ray didn't come down from the sixth floor to the fifth until after Hank and Junior had gotten to the fifth floor front windows (as each of them testified), and if Jack was working on the fifth and sixth floors during the lunch hour that he normally did not work during, then later in the direct path of the assassin's supposed escape, I find it a much easier conclusion to reach that all of them were aware of the shooters' presence - and lied about it - than that the shooters were able to pull some sort of "disappearing act" or time everything so precisely that nobody had a chance to see them.

If those things are true and the shooter was Oswald, then there was no reason to lie about it, and indeed, the simplest solution would have been for each of them to say that that they'd seen Oswald doing the things he was purported to do.

Since they didn't, we are left to conclude that that nobody wanted to admit they saw, and thus incriminate, the dead Oswald; or that despite their proximities to the locations and events that apparently took place, they saw nothing because there was nothing to see; or that they saw things that they didn't admit to and weren't going to talk about ... because the actual fact is that human beings cannot "simply disappear."

So it makes perfect sense to postulate that the killers acted with utter impunity because they knew both that they'd never be seen or caught, and that even if they were, they'd be turned loose in favor of the patsy's capture. They didn't need anyone on the inside because they knew everything that was going on inside the TSBD (and accomplices are only for amateurs anyway), and anyone who saw them would never say so, but if they happened to, it would never be recorded, and even if they were identified or captured, they'd never actually be "caught" because of their cloaks of invisibility and, should those fail, the fact that everybody was in on it.

... While suggesting that anyone aided and abetted is clearly nonsensical.

Duke,

I assume you are attributing some of your above speculations to me - about "accomplaces are for amaterurs anyway" and all the junk about "cloaks of invisiblity," none of which I said.

I said in a previous post that speculating that Dougherty was a "lookout" and one of the negros was a "shooter" was, I never said a thing about "acomplaces," and I think I said a "lookout" would be "rinky dink," and that we shouldn't speculate too far beyond what we know to be facts.

You want to speculate about Dougherty, feeble minded and retarded lookout, and a black guy shooting Oswald's rifle, go right ahead.

My speculation as to what happened is based on the facts that my three main suspects - LeMay, Byrd and Collins - all three very good and close friends, own the building, control the radio communcations on AF1 and oversee the CIA/DOD maritime operations involved in the "contingency plans for a coup in Cuba" and Northwoods, both of which are directly connected to what happened at Dealey Plaza and Oak Cliff. If you read how the maritime operators prepared for their missions to Cuba, then you will understand how such an operation is conducted.

If they are, in fact, suspects in the assassination, then I don't think that JFK was killed by a black janitor while a retarded guy was the lookout.

Maybe the floor crew as really an assassination team, who had served in the military together, and maybe Duke's speculation is correct, but that's all it is, speculating, and you can't take it to court.

Certainly, as Peter points out, Duke has posted the extremely pertinent question that everyone should try to answer: If Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor Sniper, then who was he?

We know he was a white, male, 25-35 years old, 5 foot 8-11, 160 pounds, wore a white shirt, had a male pattern bald spot on the top of his head (like Lovelady), and probably had a good excuse to be in the building - either working there or a cop.

People have speculated for years about Jim Braden being a shooter, since was taken into custody in the Dal Tex building because the elevator operator thought him suspicious, but there's nothing in his background that indicates that he ever owned or fired a gun in his life. He was a con artists and oil man, but not a sniper assassin.

BK

[Duke Lane]

[Dupe to below]

Edited April 2, 2009 by Duke Lane

[Duke Lane]

... If the following can be defended, no more needs to be said. ...

"The proof that Oswald was not there is the fact that none of the four men upstairs who were on the fifth and/or sixth floors said that they had seen him there, which they absolutely must have if he was there. Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, in a position where he would have seen - and probably did see - whoever was in the "sniper's nest" area. Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" - that is, directly in the path of the fleeing assassin (which scenario was only necessary if Oswald was the shooter having to hurry downstairs to meet Baker & Truly in the second floor lunchroom within 90 seconds) - and was not run over by Oswald as he had to have been."

The defense is relatively simple, and takes reading only the testimonies of Bonnie Ray Williams, Hank Norman, Junior Jarman, Jack Dougherty and, to a lesser extent, Roy Truly.

There is no question that the first of these men were on the fifth floor, for their photo was taken by Tom Dillard (I believe it was; I'm not a photographic evidence expert) in the fifth floor windows after the shooting. Thereafter, we are left to the reliability of their words.

When Bonnie Ray Williams (BRW) was done "washing up," the two of his friends, Danny Arce and Billy Lovelady, who he said he'd intended to meet upstairs to watch the parade had gone outside, according to their testimonies; BRW thought that they might've gone upstairs ahead of him. That he'd spent more time in the washroom than necessary to simply wash his hands is evidenced by what others said that they and other employees had done before going outside. For his part, BRW said that everybody was outside when he finished washing up. The last anyone had seen of him was during the "elevator race" downstairs when they began their lunch break; nobody said they'd seen him before going out, so he must've been in the washroom for more than just a couple of minutes.

Since there's no contradictory testimony, we'll take him at his word that he then got his lunch from the domino room, went to the freight elevator, found it not there at the first floor (he didn't look to see where it was), and decided to take the passenger elevator up to the floor where everyone had been working and where he expected to find his friends Danny and Billy. Beyond his testimony, there is no absolute proof that he was ever on any elevator, or that any elevator had ever been on the sixth floor during the lunch hour, or even that he was himself on the sixth floor other than that he said so (the chicken bones, bag and coke bottle weren't dusted for prints - or if they were, the results were not made known - so even that those were his rests solely on his word).

Jack Dougherty, according to his own testimony, had been on the fifth and sixth floors prior to lunchtime "getting some stock," and I recall that he was seen by at least one or two of the floor-laying crew there. He was not part of the "elevator race," and only he says that he came back downstairs around noontime. Danny Arce is the only person who said that he'd seen Jack during the early part of the lunch hour, also in the domino room. Thereafter, Jack said that he went back to work even though it was his usual custom to "take the whole lunch hour." He explained this by saying that he "would've love to" have seen the President, but that "there was no way" he'd have been able to get through the crowd (despite being "a great big husky fellow") even if he'd "wanted to."

Nobody said that they saw Jack either near the doorway, trying to see through the crowd, or going back to the elevators to go back to work. But then, since nobody saw him anywhere else, we'll concede that he did. According to what he said, he was "getting some stock" on both the fifth and sixth floors. He claimed not to have seen BRW when he'd gone upstairs (and BRW claimed not to have seen Jack, even despite Jack moving around an essentially open floor and, being "a great big husky fellow," probably making a certain amount of noise), nor did he claim to have seen or heard Hank or Junior when they arrived on the fifth floor, or hear them and BRW running across the floor from the southeast corner to the southwest, also - according to them - making a fair amount of noise, even while he was less than 100 feet away in an enclosed area, once again essentially "open." None of them saw him either.

Jack Dougherty, the "Invisible Man."

Junior and Hank went outside in front of the building, their presence there verified by Danny Arce and Roy Truly in their testimonies, and remained there until they'd heard word that the motorcade was on Main Street. Main was mentioned twice on DPD Channel 2, first at about 12:22 and the second time at about 12:26. Although none of them testified as to the exact time they'd left, Roy Truly also stated that they'd been in front of the building until shortly before the motorcade arrived.

Rather than push through the small crowd in the TSBD doorway, the walked around the building along Houston Street, around the back, and in the west rear entry (shipping) door. Finding the passenger elevator gone, they went back around and called the freight elevator down, the only one that could be called. Presumably it was wherever Jack Dougherty had left it when he went back to work "to get some stock." They then rode the elevator to the fifth floor, got off, and walked over to the south wall windows.

No matter which time they'd heard about the motorcade being on Main, I'd give them a minute to walk around the building, 15-20 seconds to check out the missing elevators (although they came in the door adjacent to the freight elevator, they didn't specifically mention looking up the shaft for it, but rather going first to the passenger elevator), 30 seconds for the elevator to descend (at the rate of seven seconds per floor, as testified to by Billy Lovelady at the end of his deposition discussin his having timed the elevator coming down from the seventh floor, and other testimony that both elevators moved at the same rate of speed), another 10 seconds to open the gate, get in and close it, and another 30 seconds to get back to the fifth floor, a total of only about 90 seconds to two minutes from the time they'd left the front of the building, thus arriving there at about 12:23:30 to 12:24, or 12:27:30 to 12:28.

While Hank couldn't seem to remember whether BRW was on the fifth floor when they got there or if he came later, Junior testified that BRW had come after they'd gotten to the windows (another 100-foot-plus walk from the elevator at an average adult walking rate of 4.3 feet per second, about 20 more seconds), and BRW had testified that he'd thought that maybe he'd heard the other two guys downstairs from him, which is why in the deathly quiet of the sixth floor, he said he'd decided to stop on the fifth floor rather than just going all the way down and out of the building. He then saw and joined his two compatriots at the window. Then came the shots.

Jack, meanwhile, was "getting some stock," which entailed moving around whatever floor he was on at any given time (depending upon which books he was retrieving, and of which there is no record), opening the tops of the boxes, removing the books, placing them on the floor or on something else and either carrying them back to a staging area before moving on to the next books he needed, or else carrying at least some of them around to the next box, or perhaps carting them on a hand truck (dolly).

Both the fifth and sixth floors were a mess, with stacks of boxes piled to various heights, in not-very-precise rows along the floor. While it's possible that some of those stacks might've hid either the "great big husky fellow" Jack Dougherty, or the taller black men Bonnie Ray and Junior (and more easily the dimunitive Hank), that hardly suggests that anyone walking among the stacks would be hidden from others' views at all times. And while they might have some sound-deadening effect, it's hard to imagine that they'd have enabled a "great big husky fellow" from being heard making his way around the floor(s) while collecting and moving orders of books, or completely cover the sounds of three men running together across the floor as they "moved rather fast ... at a trotting pace" 100 feet away.

But we can believe, if we wish, that Jack didn't know the three men were there, and they never heard nor saw Jack as he was "getting some stock." We also probably know of some flying pigs.

Prior to coming down to the fifth floor, Bonnie Ray had purportedly been eating his sandwich of "chicken on the bone" in the second set of windows from the southeast "sniper's nest" corner, that is, about 25 feet from where the sniper(s) planned to shoot from and where, presumably, he or they had been near prior to the actual shooting at 12:30. If you've ever been to the Sixth Floor Museum and stood where Bonnie Ray ate his lunch, it's inconceivable that anyone would have been unaware of anyone else as "far away" as the east wall unless they were deadly silent, especially on a floor silent enough that BRW himself cited it as being "one of the reasons I left - because it was so quiet."

We have two options: either BRW was there before the doers arrived, or they were there before him. We can safely presume that they didn't arrive on the sixth floor at the same time as each other and they let him go to the third set of windows to eat his lunch while they set up the shoot two windows over. Nor can we presume that someone watched over BRW while the other(s) did the southeast corner window thing, for it would seem highly unlikely that the man would be able to eat. If he knew they were there, he couldn't be allowed to leave or be left unguarded.

If BRW arrived first and had eaten his sandwich and drank his coke before the doers arrived, it's likely that he would've been seen by them even before they'd gotten over to the southeast corner. This is the long view, looking south to the third window, where the hand truck and lunch remains were found; it is hard to imagine, outside of the sheerest luck, that BRW wouldn't have been seen as the doer(s) crossed from the stairs and elevator to the far corner:

Bonnie Ray would've been silhouetted in the window; had he looked back, he'd have seen at least one man with a gun. Even if he didn't look back, how could the doer(s) be certain of that? Once again, BRW couldn't be left "unattended."

The last possibility is that the doers were already in the southeast corner and heard BRW coming across the floor. They decided to keep quiet, not move, and hope he'd leave. But no, he seemed to be sitting still over there, opening a bag, rustling around with it, opening a pop bottle, his mouth smacking as he ate: the man clearly wasn't going anywhere real soon. It was getting to be time for the target to arrive, and there were still preparations to finish; what would you do then? You can't just leave the guy there to go about his lunch, maybe hang around and watch the parade, while you "surreptitously" got ready to shoot, can you?

But eyewitness descriptions of men and activity in the sixth floor windows precludes that they just lay still and hoped BRW would go away: they made no apparent effort to remain hidden from Bonnie Ray's sight ... and even if he couldn't see directly along the windows, it's pretty apparent from the photo below that men standing anywhere around the first set of windows would be visible to BRW, especially if "the tall one" - as Roy Truly described Bonnie Ray - stood up at any point:

There just weren't an awful lot of boxes to shield them.

Remember that the motorcade was due to arrive at about 12:25. Hank and Junior got to the fifth floor probably no earlier than 12:23 and possibly as late as 12:28, and got there before BRW went down. I submit, then, that it is not plausible that BRW was unaware of the shooter(s) being there, or of the shooter(s) not being aware that BRW was there, and given the deed they were about to commit, they couldn't leave him to his own devices.

I further submit that "the shooter(s)" must have been plural because Bonnie Ray could not have been allowed to leave on his own since he might well go all the way to the bottom and outside the building and alert police or create some sort of disturbance that would bring their plans to naught and/or get them caught, ergo someone else must have had to go downstairs with BRW to keep him corralled and under control.

This likewise virtually eliminates the possibility that Hank and Junior had gone up to the sixth floor because, unless there was a third or fourth man there who could be spared to leave in the moments before the motorcade, already late, finally arrived, it would have necessitated letting someone ride one of the elevators down to the fifth floor - and actually stopping there! - by themselves (and if they didn't stop, what were you going to do from the other elevator: shoot them and give up the game before the objective was achieved?).

Once BRW was on the fifth floor and safely away from his only means of escape - the stairs and elevators - he still couldn't be left alone for fear of his making a break for it. Where best to put someone to keep him from doing so? How about "ten feet west of the west elevator" where a "great big husky fellow" could prevent maybe even as many as three men - all relatively small southern black men - from getting past him?

The only other option I can imagine is that what the WC said happened is exactly what did happen, and Jack was totally oblivious to Oswald running by him to meet his destiny.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Duke Lane

[Duke Lane]

Duke,

I assume you are attributing some of your above speculations to me - about "accomplaces are for amaterurs anyway" and all the junk about "cloaks of invisiblity," none of which I said.

I said in a previous post that speculating that Dougherty was a "lookout" and one of the negros was a "shooter" was, I never said a thing about "acomplaces," and I think I said a "lookout" would be "rinky dink," and that we shouldn't speculate too far beyond what we know to be facts.

You want to speculate about Dougherty, feeble minded and retarded lookout, and a black guy shooting Oswald's rifle, go right ahead. ... I don't think that JFK was killed by a black janitor while a retarded guy was the lookout.

Bill,

This explains much: you don't read what's actually written unless it catches your eye, because I never once suggested a black man was a shooter, and you'll have to admit that a "lookout" is indeed an "accomplice." I don't think I even suggested that I thought it was done by two "lone nuts" rather than the supposed one, which is what being "killed by a black janitor while a retarded guy was the lookout" describes.

As to why you'd think that "real killers don't use lookouts" (it would be "rinky dink"), I haven't a clue. Guess I'd rather get caught by surprise and be the only one there in the event that three men arrived in the shooting area, alone or together, while I was hunkered down at a corner window. Who wants anyone to watch their six anyway?

Jack's "feeble-mindedness" and "retardation" are attributable only to Roy Truly, who can't be ruled out of having had something to do with the whole thing; otherwise, all you've got is a Secret Service agent's impression that Jack was "confused" about dates and times, and Jack's father telling the FBI that he sometimes had trouble putting thoughts into words. Jack was, after all, lucid and intelligent enough to be entrusted with the keys to the building, and was the first one there every day. Does that spell "opportunity" to you?

Incidentally, people who knew Jack don't use those words to describe him.

My speculation as to what happened is based on the facts that my three main suspects - LeMay, Byrd and Collins - all three very good and close friends, own the building, control the radio communcations on AF1 and oversee the CIA/DOD maritime operations involved in the "contingency plans for a coup in Cuba" and Northwoods, both of which are directly connected to what happened at Dealey Plaza and Oak Cliff. If you read how the maritime operators prepared for their missions to Cuba, then you will understand how such an operation is conducted.

While certainly those three men could have had a hand in the deal, I hardly think that any of them had a gun in their hands on Friday afternoon. I'm looking for the ground-pounding grunt, not the general behind the lines.

Maybe the floor crew as really an assassination team, who had served in the military together, and maybe Duke's speculation is correct, but that's all it is, speculating, and you can't take it to court.

Certainly, as Peter points out, Duke has posted the extremely pertinent question that everyone should try to answer: If Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor Sniper, then who was he?

We know he was a white, male, 25-35 years old, 5 foot 8-11, 160 pounds, wore a white shirt, had a male pattern bald spot on the top of his head (like Lovelady), and probably had a good excuse to be in the building - either working there or a cop.

Not all facts can be taken to court, but that doesn't make them any less facts. Your description does not match any given by anyone who saw someone in the window, including Amos Euins' from whom presumably came the "pattern bald spot" which he made a point of after saying that he didn't say the man he saw was white. Sometimes, when looking at the forest, it's kind of difficult to see what species of trees populate it.

[William Kelly]

Hey Duke,

Why not start a thread on the identity of the Sixth Floor Sniper?

Regardless of all the speculation of who it was, I still want to establish, without a doubt that Lee Harvey Oswald, visibly seen in the vestibule of the Second Floor Lunchroom by Baker at 90 seconds after the last shot, can be eleminated as a Sixth Floor Shooting suspect if he did not go through that door. And from all indications, he did not.

I'd like to hear how Posner and Bugliosi, and Myers and Mack get around this point - that Baker saw Oswald in the vestibule at T+1:30, and Truly, ahead of him did not, and therefore, Oswald is no longer a suspect as a Sixth Floor Shooter.

And we will, with a tip of the hat to Duke Lane, include the fact that if he had been on the Sixth Floor and did run down the steps, he would have bumped into Doughery, and the two secretaries walking down the steps from the 4th floor, and also seen by Truly before Baker.

Those who claim to keep an open mind about such things, must now admit that Lee Harvey Oswald, who Gary Mack proclaims as the only suspect, is now not a suspect at all.

And I want to call the attention of Posner, Bugloisi and Mack, to the fine work of Howard Roffman (Presumed Guilty), Don Thomas (Response to Bugliosi at Mary Ferrell) and Duke Lane (Education Forum posts on Jack Dougherty et al), and request that they respond by either refuting this evidence (geometrically speaking) or admit that at least someone other than Oswald must now be considered as a possible Sixth Floor Shooter.

I'm going to start another thead for speculators on who this person could be, but for now, I want to focus this thread on how it can be, and has been determined to a legal certainty, that Oswald should not even be considered a suspect.

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

[Duke Lane]

Hey Duke, Why not start a thread on the identity of the Sixth Floor Sniper?

Hey Bill, largely because every time I start a thread that diverges from your nebulous claims, you accuse me of trying to confuse the issue?

Regardless of all the speculation of who it was, I still want to establish, without a doubt that Lee Harvey Oswald, visibly seen in the vestibule of the Second Floor Lunchroom by Baker at 90 seconds after the last shot, can be eleminated as a Sixth Floor Shooting suspect if he did not go through that door. And from all indications, he did not.

I think the point has largely been conceded. Any attempt to go beyond that point has met with your derision. Not what you'd call a conversation-starter, eh?

If it can be shown that someone else must've done it, then the whole argument about how LHO didn't do it is a non-starter.

Those who claim to keep an open mind about such things, must now admit that Lee Harvey Oswald, who Gary Mack proclaims as the only suspect, is now not a suspect at all.

And those with a truly open mind (no pun intended) will consider that there are other suspects than LHO. Instead, we get the straw-man argument that I'd "speculated" that "JFK was killed by a black janitor while a retarded guy was the lookout."

If you can cite where I said that, by all means, please do. I won't be holding my breath.

I offer PROOF of FACTS about the ground-pounders; you'd like to discuss who the masterminds were. Fair enough. When you're able to put Curtis LeMay on the sixth floor of the depository building, I'm sure we'd all like to hear more. Until then, your "primary suspects" are a lot more speculation than anything I've suggested, which never even hinted at the identity of the shooter(s) except to show that Lee Oswald wasn't him, or one of them.

I've proven your point and you've derided mine. Do you think that could have any bearing on why it's taken 45 years to make so little progress? Or why so many people think we're wierd and obsessed?

Nobody was ever able to put Nixon in the Watergate either. Since he wasn't there, does that mean that Hunt and Sturgis and the Cubans couldn't have been the perps? If Nixon was behind it all, the others aren't even worth talking about, right? They weren't "players."

You find the generals by identifying the grunts, not the other way around.

[William Kelly]

Okay, Here's a long and convoluted response from Dale Myers and Todd Vaughan, two of my favorite Coincidentalists, to Don Thomas' article, and the appropriate part dealing with Baker seeing Oswald in the vestibule door window. They acknowldge that neither Truly nor Baker saw the open door, and their excuse is provided by Jean Davison. She speculates mightly that Oswald had gone through the door, and thus came down the steps and was the assassin, and was heading into the offices when he suddenly decides to stop and turn around and get a coke.

Don Thomas' article:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/...s_the_Testimony

Myers and Vaughan respond:

http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:Hsl-PT...=clnk&gl=us

(8.) "...The authors of the Warren Report and Bugliosi failed to consider that this hallway leads to another set of stairs down to the first floor; and in fact, this route in reverse was the one taken by Oswald when he left the building. If Oswald used this same route to arrive at the lunchroom as Baker's testimony supports, he could have come up from the first floor exactly as he claimed..."

Dr. Thomas makes the same argument that twenty-three-year-old conspiracy theorist Howard Roffman did in his 1975 book, Presumed Guilty, in an effort to explain how Oswald could have been seen by Officer Marrion L. Baker through the vestibule door window.

The dilemma exists because both Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, who were running up the stairs, both testified that the vestibule door was not moving as they passed the second floor landing. Of course, it was through the window of this same door that Baker spotted Oswald walking through the vestibule. The layout of the vestibule door and the lunchroom is such that if Oswald had descended from the sixth floor just ahead of Truly and Baker, as the Warren Commission believed, then the hydraulic mechanism would have kept the door in motion during the brief moment that Oswald would have been passing through the vestibule en route to the lunchroom, and hence, in Baker's line-of-sight. The fact that the door was not in motion, suggests that Oswald must have passed through the door a sufficient period of time (enough for the door to close) before Truly and Baker arrived on the second floor landing. But if that happened, the critics point out, then Oswald would have had time to leave the vestibule and enter the lunchroom to his left and therefore would not have been visible to Baker through the vestibule door window.

Author Howard Roffman offered a solution in 1975 that served as an alibi of sorts for Oswald. According to Roffman, "The only way Oswald could have been in [the area of the vestibule visible to Baker] on his way to the lunchroom is if he entered the vestibule through the southernmost door…" that is, came up from the first floor via the front staircase and cut through "either a large office space or an adjacent corridor." [Roffman, Howard, Presumed Guilty, 1976 edition, p.217, 221]

This is precisely the argument Dr. Thomas uses to suggest that Oswald had lunch on the first floor, just as Oswald claimed, and came up to the second floor via the office or hallway to get a Coke. (Thomas ignores, of course, Oswald's own admission to Postal Inspector Holmes on Sunday morning, November 24, that he descended the back stairwell just before the encounter with Officer Baker, and therefore must have entered the vestibule door just before Baker. See Item #3 above.) But Roffman and Thomas are wrong to suggest that Oswald could not have been seen through the vestibule door window unless he had come up from the first floor.

Anyone who has studied this issue knows that Oswald could have descended from the sixth floor and been seen just as Baker described if he had simply entered the vestibule door just a moment before Truly and Baker reached the landing. If Oswald had turned to his right, instead of going into the lunchroom to his left, the hydraulic mechanism would have pulled the door closed behind him. Then, if Oswald doubled-back toward the lunchroom a few seconds after the door closed, he would have passed the window just as Baker described, and the door would have been motionless.

I calculated that in less than ten seconds Oswald could have gotten as far as the entrance way to a large office space adjoining the vestibule and lunchroom. This was the same office that Oswald would later cut through to leave the building after his lunchroom encounter with Baker. That's when he encountered Mrs. Robert Reid, who had just returned to her desk after witnessing the assassination. Before the lunchroom encounter, however, the office was empty. If Oswald had entered the vestibule and turned right instead of left and walked to the entrance of the empty office, he might have occurred to him for the first time that he had managed to escape the sixth floor without being seen. Perhaps, that was the moment he decided to double-back into the lunchroom and retrieve a Coke which he could use as a sort of alibi, and in so doing passed the vestibule window and was inadvertently spotted by Officer Baker.

Author Jean Davison (Oswald's Game) suggested a similar possibility in an Internet newsgroup posting. Ms. Davison noted that Depository employee Geneva L. Hines testified that she remained in her second floor office, located in Room 200, and watched the motorcade from a window facing Houston Street. After hearing three shots and seeing spectators running on Elm Street, Ms. Hine went out into the front hallway hoping to get into an office that overlooked Elm Street so that she could see what was happening. She began knocking on the office door of Lyon and Carnahan, Room 201 – which was right at the top of the same front stairs that Oswald presumably used to later exit the building.

Here's the subsequent exchange with Warren Commission counsel Joseph A. Ball:

MISS HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Lee, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door [Room 203] and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out.

MR. BALL. On to Elm?

MISS HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass.

MR. BALL. I See.

MISS HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.

MR. BALL. Was the door locked?

MISS HINE. Yes, sir...I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

MR. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?

MISS HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in. [6H396]

"Here's my guess as to what happened," author Jean Davison wrote. "Oswald was coming downstairs when he heard Truly hollering for the elevator or pounding up the stairs, so he ducked into the vestibule and started down the hallway. But then he heard Ms. Hine making a racket in the front hall. He didn't want to be seen, so he doubled back into the vestibule, where he was spotted by Baker. Getting a Coke just gave him a visible excuse for being there. Kind of like, 'Don't mind me, I'm just having lunch.'"

In the end, it's obvious that the manner in which Officer Baker spotted Oswald doesn't preclude Oswald from having descended from the sixth floor, as Dr. Thomas claims.

Who's rewriting history?

Edited April 3, 2009 by William Kelly

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi Bill,

Recently I read Dale Myer’s book With Malice, and for the most part I found Dale’s style to be in depth and logical. The book itself was interesting and contained many useful research notes that can help to expand my knowledge in other areas of the case. However, after reading the ‘Myers and Vaughan response’ to the ‘Don Thomas' article, I can’t help but feel slightly concerned about this segment.

“If Oswald had turned to his right, instead of going into the lunchroom to his left, the hydraulic mechanism would have pulled the door closed behind him. Then, if Oswald doubled-back toward the lunchroom a few seconds after the door closed, he would have passed the window just as Baker described, and the door would have been motionless.”

I compared this to extracts from page 65 of With Malice –

“Did the killer spot Tippit’s approaching squad car, spin and start back in the opposite direction?”

and

“...the sudden “change in direction” fits the facts of the shooting more closely...”

I personally find it extremely difficult to visualise Oswald, a man who has 'supposedly' just assassinated the President of the United States by firing three incredible shots in a very short period of time, evaded numerous law enforcement agencies assigned to protect the President during his escape and gunned down a police officer (Tippit) in broad daylight, as an indecisive individual whom is forever changing directions?

I am also concerned how by simply implying these numerous Oswald “changes in direction” it conveniently “fits the facts of the shooting more closely”, when quite frankly, at least in the case of the TSBD Baker/Oswald sighting, there appears to be no evidence to support such a claim.

Just my observations - Steve

Okay, Here's a long and convoluted response from Dale Myers and Todd Vaughan, two of my favorite Coincidentalists, to Don Thomas' article, and the appropriate part dealing with Baker seeing Oswald in the vestibule door window. They acknowldge that neither Truly nor Baker saw the open door, and their excuse is provided by Jean Davison. She speculates mightly that Oswald had gone through the door, and thus came down the steps and was the assassin, and was heading into the offices when he suddenly decides to stop and turn around and get a coke.

Don Thomas' article:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/...s_the_Testimony

Myers and Vaughan respond:

http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:Hsl-PT...=clnk&gl=us

(8.) "...The authors of the Warren Report and Bugliosi failed to consider that this hallway leads to another set of stairs down to the first floor; and in fact, this route in reverse was the one taken by Oswald when he left the building. If Oswald used this same route to arrive at the lunchroom as Baker's testimony supports, he could have come up from the first floor exactly as he claimed..."

Dr. Thomas makes the same argument that twenty-three-year-old conspiracy theorist Howard Roffman did in his 1975 book, Presumed Guilty, in an effort to explain how Oswald could have been seen by Officer Marrion L. Baker through the vestibule door window.

The dilemma exists because both Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, who were running up the stairs, both testified that the vestibule door was not moving as they passed the second floor landing. Of course, it was through the window of this same door that Baker spotted Oswald walking through the vestibule. The layout of the vestibule door and the lunchroom is such that if Oswald had descended from the sixth floor just ahead of Truly and Baker, as the Warren Commission believed, then the hydraulic mechanism would have kept the door in motion during the brief moment that Oswald would have been passing through the vestibule en route to the lunchroom, and hence, in Baker's line-of-sight. The fact that the door was not in motion, suggests that Oswald must have passed through the door a sufficient period of time (enough for the door to close) before Truly and Baker arrived on the second floor landing. But if that happened, the critics point out, then Oswald would have had time to leave the vestibule and enter the lunchroom to his left and therefore would not have been visible to Baker through the vestibule door window.

Author Howard Roffman offered a solution in 1975 that served as an alibi of sorts for Oswald. According to Roffman, "The only way Oswald could have been in [the area of the vestibule visible to Baker] on his way to the lunchroom is if he entered the vestibule through the southernmost door…" that is, came up from the first floor via the front staircase and cut through "either a large office space or an adjacent corridor." [Roffman, Howard, Presumed Guilty, 1976 edition, p.217, 221]

This is precisely the argument Dr. Thomas uses to suggest that Oswald had lunch on the first floor, just as Oswald claimed, and came up to the second floor via the office or hallway to get a Coke. (Thomas ignores, of course, Oswald's own admission to Postal Inspector Holmes on Sunday morning, November 24, that he descended the back stairwell just before the encounter with Officer Baker, and therefore must have entered the vestibule door just before Baker. See Item #3 above.) But Roffman and Thomas are wrong to suggest that Oswald could not have been seen through the vestibule door window unless he had come up from the first floor.

Anyone who has studied this issue knows that Oswald could have descended from the sixth floor and been seen just as Baker described if he had simply entered the vestibule door just a moment before Truly and Baker reached the landing. If Oswald had turned to his right, instead of going into the lunchroom to his left, the hydraulic mechanism would have pulled the door closed behind him. Then, if Oswald doubled-back toward the lunchroom a few seconds after the door closed, he would have passed the window just as Baker described, and the door would have been motionless.

I calculated that in less than ten seconds Oswald could have gotten as far as the entrance way to a large office space adjoining the vestibule and lunchroom. This was the same office that Oswald would later cut through to leave the building after his lunchroom encounter with Baker. That's when he encountered Mrs. Robert Reid, who had just returned to her desk after witnessing the assassination. Before the lunchroom encounter, however, the office was empty. If Oswald had entered the vestibule and turned right instead of left and walked to the entrance of the empty office, he might have occurred to him for the first time that he had managed to escape the sixth floor without being seen. Perhaps, that was the moment he decided to double-back into the lunchroom and retrieve a Coke which he could use as a sort of alibi, and in so doing passed the vestibule window and was inadvertently spotted by Officer Baker.

Author Jean Davison (Oswald's Game) suggested a similar possibility in an Internet newsgroup posting. Ms. Davison noted that Depository employee Geneva L. Hines testified that she remained in her second floor office, located in Room 200, and watched the motorcade from a window facing Houston Street. After hearing three shots and seeing spectators running on Elm Street, Ms. Hine went out into the front hallway hoping to get into an office that overlooked Elm Street so that she could see what was happening. She began knocking on the office door of Lyon and Carnahan, Room 201 – which was right at the top of the same front stairs that Oswald presumably used to later exit the building.

Here's the subsequent exchange with Warren Commission counsel Joseph A. Ball:

MISS HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Lee, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door [Room 203] and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out.

MR. BALL. On to Elm?

MISS HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass.

MR. BALL. I See.

MISS HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.

MR. BALL. Was the door locked?

MISS HINE. Yes, sir...I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

MR. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?

MISS HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in. [6H396]

"Here's my guess as to what happened," author Jean Davison wrote. "Oswald was coming downstairs when he heard Truly hollering for the elevator or pounding up the stairs, so he ducked into the vestibule and started down the hallway. But then he heard Ms. Hine making a racket in the front hall. He didn't want to be seen, so he doubled back into the vestibule, where he was spotted by Baker. Getting a Coke just gave him a visible excuse for being there. Kind of like, 'Don't mind me, I'm just having lunch.'"

In the end, it's obvious that the manner in which Officer Baker spotted Oswald doesn't preclude Oswald from having descended from the sixth floor, as Dr. Thomas claims.

Who's rewriting history?

[Neville Gully]

I discovered this "re-enactment" done by History Channel, Gary Mack and Dave Perry of the time taken to get from the Sniper's Nest to the 2nd Floor vestibule. It is claimed that a time under 50 seconds is possible.

It was impossible to use the TSBD for this purpose so another Dallas warehouse was employed. My reading of the layout of the TSBD staircase was that each floor contained 2 components, one on the north wall a 90 degree turn and then another west wall section. On each floor there was a 20 feet walk to the next floor staircase. In the re-enactment the staircase appears contiguous, with no 20 feet or so distance to travel. Therefore is there an innacuracy built ito the History Channel study? There would be 3 of these 20 feet sections to negociate and the time to do this added to the 48 seconds claimed to be possible. How much time would this add? 15 seconds maybe? Of course a more accurate simulation for an assassin escaping via the stairs immediately afterward would have taken the time for Truly to reach the 2nd Floor landing.......not Baker and subtracted approximately 10 seconds (see SS re-enactment portion of the film above, "LHO" enters the 2nd Floor and opens vestibule door - I estimate about 10 seconds for the door to close).

Also, no mention was made of the assassin taking time to avoid the bumbling Dougherty on the 5th Floor (or 6th) landing. Credit to Duke Lane for his writings on the movement and observations (or lack of) on the upper floors at the time of the shooting.

Thoughts anyone?

Coincidentally, this thread has subsequently appreared at the JFK Lancer Forum discussing the Perry re-enactment

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...80201&page=

Sean Murphy claims that dialogue with Dave Perry and Gary Mack confirms certain inaccuracies......including the lack of floor landings in the building used.

Just when you think you have found something new......you find others have before you......such is life.

[Peter McGuire]

Here we go with the continuing practice of attempting to show how the patsy COULD have done it. Although these attempts always fall short of

proving anything, they accomplish their purpose of casting doubt on who the real assassins were.

[William Kelly]

Hi Bill,

Hey Steve,

Recently I read Dale Myer's book With Malice, and for the most part I found Dale's style to be in depth and logical. The book itself was interesting and contained many useful research notes that can help to expand my knowledge in other areas of the case. However, after reading the 'Myers and Vaughan response' to the 'Don Thomas' article, I can't help but feel slightly concerned about this segment.

Dale Myers' book is incomplete and intentionally deceiving, as Dale knows things he didn't put in the book and he is not concerned with the truth of what happened, but rather seems bent on attacking and mocking "conspiracy theories," and convicting Oswald of being the assassin of JFK and Tippit's killer, regardless of what really happened.

"If Oswald had turned to his right, instead of going into the lunchroom to his left, the hydraulic mechanism would have pulled the door closed behind him.

Truly was called back to testify under oath before the Warren Commission attorney and asked only one question - whether the door had an automatic closing mechanism. It did and thus the door closed automatically, though slow and did not slam, so if Oswald did go through that door, and was seen through the window by Baker, then Truly certainly would have seen him too, and the door would have been slowly closing behind him. What difference does it matter if Oswald went right or left? In either case he should not have been seen by Baker if the door was even open a little, and he had made the turn.

So Oswald most certainly was walking through the vestibule from right to left, south to north, and didn't go through that door or descend the steps from the sixth floor.

How does Myers deal with this problem? He apparently adopts Jean Davis' idea, that he must have come down the steps even quicker, gone through the door, makes a right, the door closes, and decides to double-back to get a coke when he is seen by Baker through the window.

Then, if Oswald doubled-back toward the lunchroom a few seconds after the door closed, he would have passed the window just as Baker described, and the door would have been motionless."

I compared this to extracts from page 65 of With Malice –

"Did the killer spot Tippit's approaching squad car, spin and start back in the opposite direction?"

and

"...the sudden "change in direction" fits the facts of the shooting more closely..."

So according to Myers, Oswald, the accused assassin "double-backs" across his own tracks FOUR times within the hour after killing the President. He does it on the Second Floor vestibule to the lunchroom, he leaves the building and walks five blocks east and then doublebacks on a bus in the opposite direction and then gets a cab - five blocks past his rooming house and double-backs to change his pants and grab a pistol and jacket, and then walks past the point where Tippit will be killed and double-backs again, a fourth time within the hour.

I personally find it extremely difficult to visualise Oswald, a man who has 'supposedly' just assassinated the President of the United States by firing three incredible shots in a very short period of time, evaded numerous law enforcement agencies assigned to protect the President during his escape and gunned down a police officer (Tippit) in broad daylight, as an indecisive individual whom is forever changing directions?

Not only that, it is hard to believe that this cool, calm and collective homicidal maniac is the same guy who, after the Walker shooting incident for which he is also blamed, came home (according to Marina) sweating and shaking, hyperventalating and crawled into bed and didn't get over it for hours.

I am also concerned how by simply implying these numerous Oswald "changes in direction" it conveniently "fits the facts of the shooting more closely", when quite frankly, at least in the case of the TSBD Baker/Oswald sighting, there appears to be no evidence to support such a claim.

Just my observations - Steve

Your observations are also mine. It is Myers who is cockeyed.

At least he responded to the facts and lets us know that he really can't explain them other than how he has so far.

Okay, Here's a long and convoluted response from Dale Myers and Todd Vaughan, two of my favorite Coincidentalists, to Don Thomas' article, and the appropriate part dealing with Baker seeing Oswald in the vestibule door window. They acknowldge that neither Truly nor Baker saw the open door, and their excuse is provided by Jean Davison. She speculates mightly that Oswald had gone through the door, and thus came down the steps and was the assassin, and was heading into the offices when he suddenly decides to stop and turn around and get a coke.

Don Thomas' article:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/...s_the_Testimony

Myers and Vaughan respond:

http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:Hsl-PT...=clnk&gl=us

(8.) "...The authors of the Warren Report and Bugliosi failed to consider that this hallway leads to another set of stairs down to the first floor; and in fact, this route in reverse was the one taken by Oswald when he left the building. If Oswald used this same route to arrive at the lunchroom as Baker's testimony supports, he could have come up from the first floor exactly as he claimed..."

Dr. Thomas makes the same argument that twenty-three-year-old conspiracy theorist Howard Roffman did in his 1975 book, Presumed Guilty, in an effort to explain how Oswald could have been seen by Officer Marrion L. Baker through the vestibule door window.

The dilemma exists because both Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, who were running up the stairs, both testified that the vestibule door was not moving as they passed the second floor landing. Of course, it was through the window of this same door that Baker spotted Oswald walking through the vestibule. The layout of the vestibule door and the lunchroom is such that if Oswald had descended from the sixth floor just ahead of Truly and Baker, as the Warren Commission believed, then the hydraulic mechanism would have kept the door in motion during the brief moment that Oswald would have been passing through the vestibule en route to the lunchroom, and hence, in Baker's line-of-sight. The fact that the door was not in motion, suggests that Oswald must have passed through the door a sufficient period of time (enough for the door to close) before Truly and Baker arrived on the second floor landing. But if that happened, the critics point out, then Oswald would have had time to leave the vestibule and enter the lunchroom to his left and therefore would not have been visible to Baker through the vestibule door window.

Author Howard Roffman offered a solution in 1975 that served as an alibi of sorts for Oswald. According to Roffman, "The only way Oswald could have been in [the area of the vestibule visible to Baker] on his way to the lunchroom is if he entered the vestibule through the southernmost door…" that is, came up from the first floor via the front staircase and cut through "either a large office space or an adjacent corridor." [Roffman, Howard, Presumed Guilty, 1976 edition, p.217, 221]

This is precisely the argument Dr. Thomas uses to suggest that Oswald had lunch on the first floor, just as Oswald claimed, and came up to the second floor via the office or hallway to get a Coke. (Thomas ignores, of course, Oswald's own admission to Postal Inspector Holmes on Sunday morning, November 24, that he descended the back stairwell just before the encounter with Officer Baker, and therefore must have entered the vestibule door just before Baker. See Item #3 above.) But Roffman and Thomas are wrong to suggest that Oswald could not have been seen through the vestibule door window unless he had come up from the first floor.

Anyone who has studied this issue knows that Oswald could have descended from the sixth floor and been seen just as Baker described if he had simply entered the vestibule door just a moment before Truly and Baker reached the landing. If Oswald had turned to his right, instead of going into the lunchroom to his left, the hydraulic mechanism would have pulled the door closed behind him. Then, if Oswald doubled-back toward the lunchroom a few seconds after the door closed, he would have passed the window just as Baker described, and the door would have been motionless.

I calculated that in less than ten seconds Oswald could have gotten as far as the entrance way to a large office space adjoining the vestibule and lunchroom. This was the same office that Oswald would later cut through to leave the building after his lunchroom encounter with Baker. That's when he encountered Mrs. Robert Reid, who had just returned to her desk after witnessing the assassination. Before the lunchroom encounter, however, the office was empty. If Oswald had entered the vestibule and turned right instead of left and walked to the entrance of the empty office, he might have occurred to him for the first time that he had managed to escape the sixth floor without being seen. Perhaps, that was the moment he decided to double-back into the lunchroom and retrieve a Coke which he could use as a sort of alibi, and in so doing passed the vestibule window and was inadvertently spotted by Officer Baker.

Author Jean Davison (Oswald's Game) suggested a similar possibility in an Internet newsgroup posting. Ms. Davison noted that Depository employee Geneva L. Hines testified that she remained in her second floor office, located in Room 200, and watched the motorcade from a window facing Houston Street. After hearing three shots and seeing spectators running on Elm Street, Ms. Hine went out into the front hallway hoping to get into an office that overlooked Elm Street so that she could see what was happening. She began knocking on the office door of Lyon and Carnahan, Room 201 – which was right at the top of the same front stairs that Oswald presumably used to later exit the building.

Here's the subsequent exchange with Warren Commission counsel Joseph A. Ball:

MISS HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Lee, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door [Room 203] and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out.

MR. BALL. On to Elm?

MISS HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass.

MR. BALL. I See.

MISS HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.

MR. BALL. Was the door locked?

MISS HINE. Yes, sir...I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

MR. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?

MISS HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in. [6H396]

"Here's my guess as to what happened," author Jean Davison wrote. "Oswald was coming downstairs when he heard Truly hollering for the elevator or pounding up the stairs, so he ducked into the vestibule and started down the hallway. But then he heard Ms. Hine making a racket in the front hall. He didn't want to be seen, so he doubled back into the vestibule, where he was spotted by Baker. Getting a Coke just gave him a visible excuse for being there. Kind of like, 'Don't mind me, I'm just having lunch.'"

In the end, it's obvious that the manner in which Officer Baker spotted Oswald doesn't preclude Oswald from having descended from the sixth floor, as Dr. Thomas claims.

Who's rewriting history?