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Judyth Baker

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However, he also calls me a xxxx. There is a big difference between being asked what happened and doing the best you can to tell what happened, and being accused of lying when you have done your best. Other of Mr. reitzes'objections, so-called inconsistencies, have for the most part resulted from his extracting materials out of context, and in other ways misrepresenting the materials.

Judith: I for one fully understand. Sometime people will do anything for a buck and call it truth. Sometimes they even call them selves, "Mr. Truth". They are quick to tell anyone that will listen how honorable they are as they grin and slowly slip their hand into your back pocket. I too, knew Lee. Of course you can't trust anything I say. However, one time, I did see a pigion being born; and now I know for a fact pigions do exest. Tosh Plumlee :unsure:

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I just wrote to someone tonight that we are not computers with memory logs.

We are human and maybe those that are witnesses are some part of the evidence.

We need you guys. Even if sometimes words do get twisted around and maybe a hidden fact has not yet even surfaced to the knowledge of even yourselves.

Now I am going to say something new.

It is there in you both, you were both part of history. This is one thing I don't think even Vernon can dispute. YOU WERE BOTH THERE IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

Each in a differant way.

Anyone who even viewed the day that JFK got shot is also a witness. Not a great one a very small one.

The care of each of you Tosh and Judyth is good. Don't go away, hang in there.

I do want to do something new and I well know, to keep my mouth shut more now days. Because people don't view things the way I do.

I am going to say this, the day that Kennedy was shot I was only 12 years old. I was ill and home from school watching TV and saw it when it first came out. I forgot that I felt and said the words "I feel like I was there in Dallas Texas.'

You know I forgot that point. Not much to anyone else that is for sure, but to me it is something that I felt deepdown and it did upset me more than I knew.

Yes, I did watech Oswald as well. Didn't take my eyes off the screen. I knew what I felt that moment, Oh no, there is something wrong and they want to cover it up. Even that young. I do remember more details as time goes by.

Never dreamt that 41 years later that I would try to figure out what no one agrees on.

They take a picture see 11 people on a railroad overpass that no one was to be there. People move, you know. Tosh saw I don't want to get this wrong so I will say X number of people. Tosh tells it well the picture wasn't taken at the second Tosh saw and looked up. Impossible and for that one they take a ruler and measure. Well, facts they say are facts. PEOPLE MOVE and were upset and that was a fact. FACT of an eye witness.

I wish researchers would come to grips with points and stop wanting it to be so fixed and platen. Cars moved people screamed ducked droped low ran all with reactions. This doesn't disprove Tosh on this point.

I will admit I can't and won't put words in any one mouth which seems to be what some want to do for the sack of stress and money. Just won't work.

I don't know what witnesses dream or relive or go through but I do know this should have been solved so many years ago and not still with a lot of lingering questions.

This is just my opinion and my feelings.

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[Judyth Vary Baker Wrote:]

[snipped for brevity]

Fortunately, there are good people who care about the truth and realize that witnesses are not machines, but are only flesh and blood. If I make an error in a date or a sequence of events, in no case does that obscure the fact that any such errors have perfectly reasonable explanations. It's not like it hasn;t an explanation.

Thanki you for caring, those who read all the way to the end of this statement. God bless you.

===Best regards,

Judyth Vary Baker

p.s. i answered this just in case somebody thought I didn't want to answer. It is not easy because, frankly, i am not feeling very well. jvb

Hi Judyth :unsure:

Sorry to hear you are feeling poorly and hope you get feeling better real soon.

Also, I wish to apologize to everyone who has written to me privately as well as responding to my posts for not REing as I should. However, I too have been in ill health of late and must limit myself with respect to the amount of time I can devote to online activities. Hopefully this will change in the not too distant future once the 'OL Sarge is back on his feet as it were. With that said however, I thought I'd add my two bits into this thread.

Many of the researchers on this and other JFK forums I concider to be personal friends. Hell, so many of us have been involved together so long that I concider us all to be a sort of family and like all families, we will occasionally get into squabbles over this or that particular issue. Such things are an inevitible aspect of human interaction and I would be concerned if such things didn't occure because that would indicate a loss of passion with respect to our work, and I am of the firm conviction that it is precisely this passion that drives our quest for truth and justice in this case. Since I concider it an honor and a privledge to be part of the JFK Assassination Research Community it would pain me greatly to see this "PASSION" reduced to a bland lackluster object of discourse. Therefore I personally don't mind a bit when an occasional "FLAMEWAR" breaks out to stir up the soup a bit as it were. I am also of the firm conviction that when all is said and done there will arise a consensus amongst us which once cojoined will present a united front which the world will not be able to ignore. Maybe this is just wishfull thinking on my part, but such represents my true feelings in this matter none the less. This Community_my Family, represents an oasis in a desert of lunatics, imbeciles, and fools who have stolen the reigns of power and by murdering our 35th president have driven a stake through the heart and soul of our Body Politic.

So many of our people have paid so dearly with sweat and blood that I would not only concider it a disservice to their memory but I would concider it a damned travesty to reduce this quest to a polite exersize of political discourse. IMO, there is just too damn much at stake. Call it theatrics if you like but I truely believe nothing short of the future survival of our civilization hinges around the JFK case which is the nexus around which the current world situation revolves and if we don't get off of our collective arses and start doing something about it then we will most certainly reap the whirlwind, and we will, by god deserve it. Well, I for one am not about to stand by and fiddle while Rome burns and watch the destruction of everything I fought and bled for while argueing salient points. [End of Rant.]

With Greatest Respect To All Sincere Researchers, CTers and LNers Alike:

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Pamela,

You should do more research before making these claims. Since you were NOT there and HAVE NOT seen the tapes I cannot understand why you would even write what you have.

I was invited to bring my video camera by Howard Platzman. I have the email. Everyone knew we would be filming. I even fixed Judyth's hair and arranged the room before filming. Judyth talked and talked and talked. There are 3 tapes of her life story before she even meets LHO. I stopped filming when I ran out of tape. She would have talked forever. I had to buy more tapes to film the "tour" and Anna.

I have not hidden Anna Lewis in any way. 60 Minutes had the tape. Judyth has had a copy of the tape for years. Martin Shackleford has written about Anna online. Judyth used an audio of Anna on the radio. The tape could have been used or transcribed by Judyth at any time.

My communications with Anna were initiated by her when she called me to vent about Judyth. Whether she knew Judyth or Lee Oswald does not change the fact that Anna cannot vouch for Judyth's claims regarding her secret lab activities or assassination knowledge. Anna was shocked when told of those claims.

I have responded to these same accusations from you on other forums and now you come here to fresh territory and spread them again. If you have decided to support Judyth Baker that is your choice. It is mine to not believe her. It doesn't make her case any stronger when you attack me. You are only hurting your own reputation as a serious researcher.

Sincerely,

Debra

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Debra, Pamela, whoever else is involved in this damn videotapes discussion:

STOP ARGUING! I know I don't have any power here and far less credibility than anyone else, but even I can see that this fighting is wrong. Sure, someone might be lying, but we're not even sure that's the case. Please, to quote a one-album entertainer named Chris Gaines, "lay these weapons down and call a truce."

It's obvious that some matters about these videos are being over-exaggerated, but between the infighting, division, threats of lawsuits, everything here, there, and everywhere trying to destory everyone's credibility (key note: not all of what I mentioned is being threatened or brought up here), and God knows what else, you can't tell what's going on anymore.

We're a community of researchers and/or friends, though maybe not as much friends as professional colleagues. Sure, our theories will differ and things we uncover might provide challenges to others' theories, but that doesn't mean everything should be infighting and petty quarreling. Now act like reasonable people.

G

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Debra said:

You should do more research before making these claims. Since you were NOT there and HAVE NOT seen the tapes I cannot understand why you would even write what you have.

*I find it difficult to believe that you are comfortable critisizing me when you have sat on these tapes for four years while promising to return them.

I was invited to bring my video camera by Howard Platzman. I have the email. Everyone knew we would be filming.

*Really? You seem uncomfortable having an outsider attempt to make sense out of this. Why would that be? You've had control of these tapes for the last 4 years, have you not? I attempted to mediate in order to get the tape situation resolved. But it isn't resolved even yet, is it? After working your way into Judyth's core group, you then went off on your own with the taping and retaining the tapes, haven't you? And you have one story and the others who were there have another, isn't that what you are saying? And you are distressed that I don't find your story credible? Perhaps you are uncomfortable that I have perceived that it seems your word against Judyth, Howard and Martin's, because their statements seem to be pretty consistent whereas yours are out on a limb?

I even fixed Judyth's hair

* Then apparently you at least acknowledge that Judyth's hair needed 'fixing'? That's because she was taken by surprise. I am pretty sure she could have 'fixed' her own hair if she'd planned to be interviewed.

and arranged the room before filming. Judyth talked and talked and talked.

*Judyth stopped the interview, as she was extremely uncomfortable.

I am unable to reply further to your statements as they are little more than excuses for your choices of behavior IMO.

Where are the tapes Debra? When will you relinquish them? This year?

Pamela

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Pamela,

I am really tired of this. You haven't mediated anything. You've only made accusations against me based on Judyth Baker's wild claims.

Anna's interview tape was mailed to her today. I haven't heard from Howard Platzman whether he will accept the tapes or not.

Debra

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The issue that needs to be resolved is that Debra seems to want to be given credit for relinquishing the tapes while still hanging onto them.

She doesn't want them, has promised to send them, yet still has not done so and lashes out at anyone who defines the issue. I too want to have this over with as quickly as possible.

Pamela

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Debra said:

I am really tired of this. You haven't mediated anything. You've only made accusations against me based on Judyth Baker's wild claims.

*I'm tired of this too. You have carried on a 4-year escapade with the tapes while making excuses for it. I attempted to mediate. I never said I succeeded.

Debra said:

Anna's interview tape was mailed to her today. I haven't heard from Howard Platzman whether he will accept the tapes or not.

*Relinquishing Anna's tape is a step in the right direction, despite the manipulating that seems to have gone on. I can't imagine why Howard would not "accept" the other tapes, but shouldn't that be between you and him?

Pamela

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Debra, you can just send the tapes to anyone you like of what is called "Team Judyth".

None of us need to give you permission to "accept" the tapes, okay?

Pick Howard, Martin, Pamela or me:

Wim Dankbaar

Ruysdaelweg 14

2051 EM Overveen

Netherlands

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Pamela,

You should do more research before making these claims. Since you were NOT there and HAVE NOT seen the tapes I cannot understand why you would even write what you have.

I was invited to bring my video camera by Howard Platzman. I have the email. Everyone knew we would be filming.

[False: Only Howard and Debra knew she was bringing a camera I

was surprised, as were Judyth, Anna, her daughter, and Dr. Riehl.]

--Martin]

My communications with Anna were initiated by her when she called me to vent about Judyth. Whether she knew Judyth or Lee Oswald does not change the fact that Anna cannot vouch for Judyth's claims regarding her secret lab activities or assassination knowledge. Anna was shocked when told of those claims.

[Anna is a witness to the love affair. No one has ever claimed that she

can verify the other matters.--Martin]

I have responded to these same accusations from you on other forums and now you come here to fresh territory and spread them again. If you have decided to support Judyth Baker that is your choice. It is mine to not believe her. It doesn't make her case any stronger when you attack me. You are only hurting your own reputation as a serious researcher.

Sincerely,

Debra

In fact, it hurts no one's reputation to point out falsehoods and misleading statements--except perhaps the reputation of the person making those statements.

Martin Shackelford

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Pamela,

You should do more research before making these claims. Since you were NOT there and HAVE NOT seen the tapes I cannot understand why you would even write what you have.

I was invited to bring my video camera by Howard Platzman. I have the email. Everyone knew we would be filming.

[False: Only Howard and Debra knew she was bringing a camera I

was surprised, as were Judyth, Anna, her daughter, and Dr. Riehl.]

--Martin]

My communications with Anna were initiated by her when she called me to vent about Judyth. Whether she knew Judyth or Lee Oswald does not change the fact that Anna cannot vouch for Judyth's claims regarding her secret lab activities or assassination knowledge. Anna was shocked when told of those claims.

[Anna is a witness to the love affair. No one has ever claimed that she

can verify the other matters.--Martin]

I have responded to these same accusations from you on other forums and now you come here to fresh territory and spread them again. If you have decided to support Judyth Baker that is your choice. It is mine to not believe her. It doesn't make her case any stronger when you attack me. You are only hurting your own reputation as a serious researcher.

Sincerely,

Debra

In fact, it hurts no one's reputation to point out falsehoods and misleading statements--except perhaps the reputation of the person making those statements.

Martin Shackelford

Martin,

you wrote:

"In fact, it hurts no one's reputation to point out falsehoods and misleading statements--except perhaps the reputation of the person making those statements."

I agree 100% with you on this, except if you come into the way of Judyth Baker.

Now let all involved start counting the falsehoods and misleading statements made by Judyth Baker and compare the number one comes up with to the number you and others accuse Debra of.

And the winner is .... .

Well you may say you know of none in Judyth's case, well Martin just go through her mails to you, count the number and take away 10%, that's getting pretty close

then i think.

But I am only speculating and making assumptions anyway.

Just to help you out on one that I am speculating at the moment:

Judyth's dialin server is called adsl-5-3.tvnet.hu her provider tvnet.hu has adsl

and cablemodem written all over his website also 24/7 access, so I say there's something I have to be suspicious about, when she says she can not access the internet when she wants to and has a very slow modem connection.

Even if she goes onto the internet via internet sharing, I can guarantee you that

adsl access is pretty fast in that configuration, even in Hungary.

Also she said she changed her e-mail address, well logicaly she could have one

with the ending @mail.tvnet.hu now, but of course she still sends out mails

with her "old" account elect63@xs4all.nl as of yesterday.

I know what I am talking about, just in case you doubt my qualification.

But how can you doubt my words Martin, when you said you have better things

to do than to check out if what I say is true or not.

Remember that mail ?

Edited by Dave Weaver

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David said:

Also she said she changed her e-mail address, well logicaly she could have one

with the ending @mail.tvnet.hu now, but of course she still sends out mails

with her "old" account elect63@xs4all.nl as of yesterday.

I know what I am talking about, just in case you doubt my qualification.

*Apparently David is comfortable nitpicking Judyth's statements and trying to make something sinister out of them. The larger issue that David has not bothered to address is that 4 video tapes have been withheld from the research community for 4 years by someone claiming to mentor new research. In addition, it seems that the one tape that has been relinquished so far has been manipulated in such a way that it is supposed to be buried for good -- while this same person will stand up in front of other researchers in a week or so as a mentor of new research.

Just which is the issue worthy of our attention?

Pamela :)

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Uwe/David Weaver and to the forum,

I never know how to answer some of these, say something or don't say something or to just plain all out ignore.

How do you know that she has her old email address, I don't even hear from her?

She actually wrote to you? Good for you.

Maybe you should ask yourself the same question as I am asking what to say, what not to say, or just plain all out ignore?

I don't wish to get into this any further. Just try to have an open mind when it is called for and a closed one when it is called for. I think I need the gift of prudence as well as insight. Maybe we all do need that when it comes to this.

WHO SAID, SHE SAID AND RUN, DUCK AND HIDE.

Help us all out here. What is going on?

Tapes not given, when they were told that they would.

Debra ignores the comments of the project J files and never responds to it.

Mary was to have taken papers from NARA (with a group) slid papers up her arms and simply walked out with them and all of them being originals.

Texas businesss men to have made pay off's to keep the truth from coming out.

These high issues, to say the least. Things that would be called totally illegal. Things that do need a due process and are highly serious.

Not to mention a paper placed into Mary hands that was a letter from Mrs. Oswald at the time of Oswald to have been separated from his wife that she wrote to Lee. Being torn and ripped apart in front of Judyth with a threat of destroying more of the paper if Judyth doesn't back off. This done in front of Judyth Baker.

Now Judyth I know I was told all of this by you. This time don't tell me that you didn't and change things around. I have frankly, had it.

on the other hand

Debra doens't make comments doesn't go into any of this.

She states she will return the tapes of 60 min. she doesn't. Says later and now finally she does. But doesn't answer to the project J files at all that are named on this thread.

Doesn't make any comments at all when it comes to papers on NARA except that isn't true.

OK for the benifit of the doubt we can say that may be right as to the reasons why I went down to NARA to look and see what NARA states on listed record about papers that should have been returned to NARA and were not. ALL PAPERS WERE TO BE RELEASED OUT. They are not and NARA states they should have been. Yes, there is a lot of listed papers under the title of Lee H. Oswald and they are the only papers that I saw down there that havent't been returned when it should have been by Pres. Clinton orders in 1997 that was for ALL papers to be released.

From what is stated on the papers, it is that they are either in NSA or FBI and or CIA and they are refused to be given over for National Securtiy Reasons.

Except that in what I do know about NSR is that it is only a threat when the time is and after a certain amount of time is not any longer considered to be that.

Do we have a threat with Cuba now? NO

Do we have a threat with Russia now? NO

Do we have a threat with the black race for an inner war? NO

So, no we are not at this time any war with the old Cold war we were once in>

In fact when Barbara Walters did her talk with Castro she even addressed the fact of the threat on his life done by us. He shrugged his shoulders and said it was in the past. I am alive and here and it is over with. HE knew and he responded rather in a peaceful terms.

NO there is no security reason any more for those papers to be in hidding to be kept from us to view.

Seems odd to me that all of the big persons involved in Research would even make any statements at all with those less than one per cent of papers not released and they wish to keep them in their hiding place. Away from any real resolutions on JFK truth to come out.

Everyone should be addressing them to come out with topics on it all the time and yet it isn't done. NO ONE DOES.

Instead all that I get from many is this,

"we won't ever hear it come out, we won't live to see it come out, we will never know the truth about what happened to JFK, we will all be dead before it does."

So, who does this profit for the truth not to come out?

THE ONES THAT WERE INVOLVED AND ALIVE IS THE REAL ANSWER THAT THEY NEVER FACT TRIAL OR PROSECUTIONS....... Plain and simple answer. Yes, JFK was a conspiracy and one that does go on to this day. It is a virus and it is harmful to anyone that gets in it's path or way.

That involvement is posssible

payments to keep the truth from coming out

worry about their own lives because these guys seem to kill them if it goes other fashions against them

Yes, I would say that is very convinencing to keep the truth down.

How off I am?

I don't know

Maybe I am

and maybe I am not.

I just know that I have done all that I can do so far to try to help the truth to come out and many times fall so flat on my face

I do plan when Files answers Tosh Plumlee to post that letter up on this forum.

I do plan to go to a teller and see what she or he will tell me. Wild goose chase maybe, maybe not.

I do plan to get down to NARA again and look up a certain paper that is requested that I do, silently and privately, because of what may be with that paper or surrounding that paper.

Then I am out of any idea's of what to do? I am the end of the track and no where else to go or do for any more information will and have been closed if none of this opens any doors.

FOIA I don't has in the past budged any of those documents out. I somehow doubt if it would help.

Judyth has been stated that she has said may lies. Twisted many facts around, runs from me even. Well, this one part of the last one on the list is possible She does run from me as well. Why? Fear, possible. No one not even myself knows what direction I may turn.

But, I do believe that Judyth in itself is telling my things that do show a high possiblity of truth, as well. All I have to do is see for myself what questions get answered opposed to what questions don't even get touched.

Enough said. Let the battle go on silently and out with no whimpers. I hope so.

I for one do wish to see JFK come out and will all of those hidden documents released.

By the way they do know what papers they are and have an accurate record of all of them.

I would love to see the copy then of the paper Mary ripped apart in front of Judyth Baker of the letter from Mrs. Oswald to her spouse at the time of separtation.

Judyth do you know what it stated?

Have you read that paper>

What paper did you put into NARA yourself back of the one paper they gave you?

Am I on a war path , no and yes sort of?

I have just had it up to my neck in this whole thing and if I can't air it out then who would?

Who else knows this and was told all of this.

Judyth are you going to do another switch on me? Please don't. YOu did that one once to often to me, and once was enough. I may not get all facts right but darn it I do understand a whole lot of this too.

I wished you had taken this privately with Debra and fought this on your own, after all it is YOUR BATTLE NOT MINE. YOURS you claim to be Lee's lover. You claim to know about hairs on a blancket. Facts surrounding that blanket. Well, only you can prove that they were cut hairs and not falling out hairs. Under a microscope you would know.

Listings go on an on. When, where, how, who?

Talk to us Judyth. You wrote a book and now I hear that the book ins't getting copy rights. NO wrong, NO BOOK CAN BE STOPPED FOR THAT.

They that do that are not allowed to do that. It isn't up to them. Only the author can do that.

So what is going on with that?

Explain please. You do have my name in that book and yes, I would want to know the reasons why that book would be pulled out from copy right and or denied the rights to you for access. Because I never in my life ever heard of anythng like that before. It was Bob Vernon who stated this on Lancer forum, as to how I got wind of this.

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David said:

Also she said she changed her e-mail address, well logicaly she could have one

with the ending @mail.tvnet.hu now, but of course she still sends out mails

with her "old" account elect63@xs4all.nl as of yesterday.

I know what I am talking about, just in case you doubt my qualification.

*Apparently David is comfortable nitpicking Judyth's statements and trying to make something sinister out of them.  The larger issue that David has not bothered to address is that 4 video tapes have been withheld from the research community for 4 years by someone claiming to mentor new research.  In addition, it seems that the one tape that has been relinquished so far has been manipulated in such a way that it is supposed to be buried for good -- while this same person will stand up in front of other researchers in a week or so as a mentor of new research.

Just which is the issue worthy of our attention?

Pamela  :)

Pamela,

what you call "nitpicking Judyth's statements", I call realizing

and pointing out things Judyth says that are obviously not true.

Yes I feel very comfortable about that Pamela, because I know 100%, that I am on the right side of the isle, with my opinion about Judyth Baker.

Not because what others told me, or enforced that opinion on me, that Judyth has made her "love affair" up, but because I've had enough occasions to see that she was not telling the truth about a lot of things.

Her email address is just an example,and I take your answer as a confirmation then, and I am not talking about that she should tell all the world her email address (i'll take care of that anyway, in case she forgot someone),

but she said, I am relocating and am changeing my email address, the old

one is no longer valid and that was of course a lie, her email address is valid.

Case closed on that, she did lie about it, she did lie also to Nancy about it.

The truth about her internet connection is not different in my opinion (attention i am speculating here), she does have adsl or cablemodem access 24/7.

She's a very intelligent person, knows a lot about psychology and writing,

that's why she thought she could succed with pulling this "love affair stunt", but time is running out on her falsehoods, and it dawns on her already.

Time will tell you that I am right Pamela as are many others, who have far more insight in this,but rest assured, I don't take things said by you and others too personal, so maybe in some time we both can share a good laugh about this whole Judyth Baker episode.

As for the video's thing, I can not say anything about something I don't know

up to nothing about, maybe that is a position some other person's should

take also in order to avoid later embarrasement for themselves on this and

other issues.

I would be reluctant to take things, based solely on information spread (nicer would be comming from Judyth Baker) by Judyth Baker, as the truth, as they ever so often turn out to be only speculations and assumptions to put it mildly

I was addressing my last post to Martin, and sharing my view on a specific part

of his post, and of course the person I spend 24/7 on (not), was the central point

of my post, as I have no other hobbie's or things to do.

But I am suspicious about statements about the video issue from Team Judyth also, when first the word is, only Debra has the them videos , just to learn later, that in reality that was not the case and not the case for years.

Well of course there's the quality issue now and also if I understand you right, the

forgery issue now, well I didn't know Debra has so much technical talent.

By the way, any proof that this is the case, our why is it that I can hear the rumour mill spinning again, when reading that statement from you.

Did Judyth send another bulk mail out to the land where the holders of the

truth live, in order to let them all stand up and cry foul, Evil-Debra did

forge the tapes, we have no proof yet, but Judyth is speculating and assuming

about it already (well we don't know yet, for us it is a fact until she recants on that which will happen at a later date), or do you have 100% proof that Debra did

forge any of the tapes ?

By the way,did Judyth send those bulk mail(s) out from a non existing email

account,she said is no longer in use, and therefore she can not answer anymore

any mails send to that account ?

All I can and will say for the moment,as I have not enough knowledge about the

video thing is this:

If one or more of these recordings where in the hand of any member of "Team

Judyth" in form of a copy, regardless of the quality of the tape(s), why was this not

stated to the research community , when at the same time Debra was accused

of withholding them, thus leaving the impression, that the only person

having the videos was Debra.

That is the question I would like you to ask.

Just in case you ask yourself what persons I am talking about:

Martin ,Wim, Howard, Judyth and maybe others I don't know about yet, that have

at least a copy of the Anna Lewis interview for quite some time.

Edited by Dave Weaver

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