SOUTH KNOLL PHOTO

[Chris Bristow]

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

Does Frank Cancellare's photo have any relevance to what happened in the assassination?  We see in the photo two motorcycle policemen.  They are the Mid Motorcade Motorcycles.  They were in the 21st position of the motorcade.  They were on Houston Street when the assassination occurred.  The two men are DPD J. W. Courson and DPD Clyde Haywood. 

The reason I note the two motorbike cops is Cancellare's photo is taken several minutes after the assassination.  It could be as much as 3-5 minutes.  This engenders the question would any assassin on the South Knoll or in the parking lot or under trees hang around that long after the assassination? 

Frank Cancellare was in Camera Car No. 2 and in the 11th position of the motorcade.  These folks were held up on Houston for several minutes possibly 2 or 3 minutes. 

Anyone seen in the parking lot or under the trees could very well just be bystanders looking to see what was happening on Elm Street.  The same goes for the guy standing by the truck.  He may have left he truck and stood by the bed to see what's happening.  Or, he could of walked up there from another vehicle.

That is a good point in fact I think it makes the gunman theory completely implausible. The shadow of the tree trunk on the grass below means there also has to be a tree trunk right where the gunman image is.

[John Butler]

There are other odd things about the Frank Cancellare photo.  Take as one instance, Bill Newman, Gayle, and family as one thing that is odd.  The timing of the Cancellare photo indicates that Bill and family were laying in the grass as long as 5 or more minutes.  Why were they laying in the grass that long?  Posing for photographers?  Laying there in that position contradicts what Bill first said in his Sheriff’s statement of 11-22-63. 

And, laying in the grass is not a smart thing to do in Texas even as late as November.  Dallas is in the same climate zone as Fort Hood in Central Texas.  So, I would assume it has the same vermin problems as Fort Hood in those days.  At Fort Hood there were 11 different kinds of rattlesnakes, copperheads, water moccasins, coral snakes, tarantulas and other types of poisonous spiders, 2 types of scorpions, and ticks with Rocky Mountain spotted fever.  That’s plenty of reason not to lay around in the grass. 

Most of the pictorial evidence shows the Newman’s just west of the Stemmons Freeway sign.  They are standing there before, during, and after the assassination.  Only afterwards they are laying on the ground.  It seems like they are laying there for a long time after the assassination, perhaps posing for the photographers.  This is best seen in the Frank Cancellare photo.

In his Sheriff Office statement of 11-22-63 Bill Newman said “…I was standing in a group of people on Elm Street near the west end of the concrete standard when the President’s car turned left off Houston Street onto Elm Street.”

This concrete standard is just a few feet from the TSBD SW corner and not in the midway down Elm Street by the Stemmons sign.  He and family are standing south of the Stemmons sign alone and not in a group.  Newman later changed his statement. And, this varies from what Bill Newman originally said.

Many witness’ statements evolved from what the witness originally said to something more compatible to what the government’s official story was.

[John Butler]

The Cancellare UFO?

Another peculiar thing about this Cancellare photo is marked with red arrows.

What is that strange object in the sky?  It appears to be blanked out.  There is a large and long trail of smoke coming from the object.  It is not trees in the distance.  I seriously doubt it is aliens and an Alien UFO.  Could it be a jet with contrails?  A plane on fire?  What?  Strange, isn't it.

[Ron Bulman]

7 hours ago, John Butler said:

The Cancellare UFO?

Another peculiar thing about this Cancellare photo is marked with red arrows.

What is that strange object in the sky?  It appears to be blanked out.  There is a large and long trail of smoke coming from the object.  It is not trees in the distance.  I seriously doubt it is aliens and an Alien UFO.  Could it be a jet with contrails?  A plane on fire?  What?  Strange, isn't it.

Not really, it's the roof of a building in the distance, past the parking lot and railroad tracks.  What do snakes, spiders and ufo's have to do with the South Knoll or Tosh Plumlee's claims.  Are you off your med's John? 

[Ron Bulman]

22 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Much More.  There was a guy there today selling pictures and dvd's under an umbrella (yes, really) today about Muchmore.  Robert Groden was not there but a guy with a satchel with copies of his magazine in it was there and approached us opening one and talking about the guy on the fire escape stairs of the Dal-Tex building.  I've thought for many years stair-man was a spotter. 

I was focused on the South Knoll yesterday and didn't really think about or pay attention to the man selling the Muchmore items.  Wish now I'd stopped and talked to him.  The placement of his umbrella on the sidewalk near where Umbrella Man was had to be deliberate.  It was a large blue umbrella anchored by ropes to two stakes in the grass with a table under it.  I also wish I'd engaged the man with the satchel of Groden pamphlets further.  He first advised us to go behind the picket fence (the first place I went, again) then started showing us a picture in the booklet of Dal-Tex and the fire escape.  I'd like to have asked him about Richard Randolph Carr who I'd once found credible but then found reason to question but yesterday saw a view that once again made me think maybe so.

[Roy Wieselquist]

On 10/28/2018 at 10:23 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I took some photos of and from the South Knoll today.  First time I've ever really explored it.  While coming to believe one could be possible after reading Sherry Fister's book and some internet comments that seemed reasonable I was still skeptical.  I still am, but it seems more reasonable now.  I doubt one primarily from the wounds and back and to the left.

A shot for a professionally trained and experienced sniper, even placed at a particular point of a head or body it wouldn't be a problem with a good scope.  Someone like Chris Kyle would probably laugh about how easy it would be.  It's roughly 100 yards with only a little elevation change, throw in little to no wind...  In addition to at least two good places to shoot from cover, away from the crowd, getting away would be easier than from the "Grassy Knoll".   But I still cant see a shot to the right temple blowing out the right rear of the skull, that would be an almost facing shot.  I.E. JFK would have to have his head turned far to the left which I've never seen in Zapruder or pictures.  I also have trouble with my limited understanding of physics how back and to the left form the South Knoll would work. 

Ron,

It would be great if you could upload some of those pics from the South Knoll.  A while ago, I believe it was Chris Davidson who put some pictures from SK that his brother took.

Yes, Fiester broke new ground with her cones/ranges of possible shots from there.  What I think she had wrong that a head shot went in right temple and out the back of the head.  There WAS a left temple wound, seen by many, that she didn't know about.  I believe it was that shot that blew out the right occiput, and it was from SK.  And it was almost coincident with a softnosed/frangible bullet from behind the fence of the North "Grassy" Knoll.  Which probably hit over the right ear or around the right temple at about a 45 degree angle, and didn't exit anywhere, except maybe a piece of the nose out the back crown, a la Bob Harris.

Yes, undeniably back and to the left.  A steel-jacketed, high-speed round from SK, say around 3600 feet/second, hitting softer bone doesn't impart as much momentum to the target as a softer round hitting harder bone. 

I remember somewhere Nellie Connelly said she heard a sharp noise before she looked back and saw the President moving his hands up.  I believe that noise was either the supersonic crack or the bullet nicking the roof support, and that it went on to hit Kennedy in the neck and go out his right back at T3/T4 level.  That was while he was behind the Stemmons sign from Zapruder's perspective.

I believe the later shot from SK, around the extant 313, was excised from the Z-film.

So, two shots from SK, one before Z-200 and another around Z-312.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Roy Wieselquist

[Roy Wieselquist]

On 10/28/2018 at 8:59 AM, James R Gordon said:

You will find a High Res copy of the image here.

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=6011&fullsize=1

When you study the image you will see that the person is actually outside the truck and not in sitting in the back of the truck. The truck is passing him by.

There should be threads on this Cancellare image and the topic of this man.

James

The first Cancellare is one of the greats.  I believe this one furnished by James Gordon is a bit cropped because in the original, James Tague is still in his spot on Main Street way off to the right, unseen here.  Somewhere Ron Ecker proved to my satisfaction that this photo was snapped around a minute after the limo sped off.  Tague and the Newmans are key to that.  A minute and a half tops, nothing like three to five minutes as has been suggested.

The best thing about this Frank Cancellare photo, as Ron Ecker pointed out a while ago, is a figure way off in the distance on the level of the railroad tracks, dubbed Badgeman 2 by some.  Whether he's a policeman I don't know, but he is in a dark costume.  Look at the second big tree to the left of the railroad bridge.  To the right of that tree is the figure of a largish man, at least compared to the vehicles in the parking to his right.  That man is framed by the trunk of the tree and the first large branch of the tree which is hanging down at more than a 45 degree angle.

Another way to locate this man is using the big head of the photographer in the foreground as the center of a clock.  If the hour-hand were coming off that head, "Badgeman 2" is at 11:30.  I figure he was the rear-guard for the SK sniper team, not a gunman himself.

The last Cancellare photo is a great one too.  He took it from more in front of the fence of the North Knoll, Grassy.  And shooting toward the reflecting pool on the east end of Dealey.  You can see E Howard Hunt walking over JFK's grave on Elm, where the future white X would be placed.  It looks like he's coming from the direction of the Postal Building.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Roy Wieselquist

[John Butler]

"Not really, it's the roof of a building in the distance, past the parking lot and railroad tracks.  What do snakes, spiders and ufo's have to do with the South Knoll or Tosh Plumlee's claims.  Are you off your med's John?"

Not really, Ron.  Maybe you should find something to take for your closed mind.

The object in the sky, I repeat in the sky, shows plenty of air between it and the ground.  Roof of a building?  Could be foot hills in the distance and brushed in buildings.  They do appear a bit strange. 

Have you ever been to Central Texas?  I spent a year there most of the time out in the woods and fields training around Fort Hood.  It's a place where you skake your boots out every morning.  Laying in the grass is a foolish endeavor. 

Maybe you can explain the giant pickup truck next to the alleged pygmy assassin under the tree east of the truck?  Or, the time of the Cancellare photo?  Can you explain Bill Newman's change of testimony? 

 

[John Butler]

"Not really, it's the roof of a building in the distance, past the parking lot and railroad tracks.  What do snakes, spiders and ufo's have to do with the South Knoll or Tosh Plumlee's claims.  Are you off your med's John?"

Can you find any buildings around the parking lot or tracks other than the Federal Annex?  Where are the buildings there?

This maybe a better explanation:

This is another look at Dealey Plaza.  It would be difficult to see those buildings from Elm Street because of the railroad tracks..

Edited October 30, 2018 by John Butler

[Ron Bulman]

11 hours ago, John Butler said:

"Not really, it's the roof of a building in the distance, past the parking lot and railroad tracks.  What do snakes, spiders and ufo's have to do with the South Knoll or Tosh Plumlee's claims.  Are you off your med's John?"

Can you find any buildings around the parking lot or tracks other than the Federal Annex?  Where are the buildings there?

This maybe a better explanation:

This is another look at Dealey Plaza.  It would be difficult to see those buildings from Elm Street because of the railroad tracks..

You've got a recent photo that doesn't show the area in question which is irrelevant since the buildings have been razed by now.  Then second one is from the mid 50's, look at the cars coming UP Elm street and there is no freeway on the other side of the railroad tracks.  On top of that it doesn't show the area in question either.  In the upper left portion it does show a short stretch of a dirt road heading to the area just beyond the rail road tracks.  

Which can be seen also in this 1966 picture.  Along with the buildings roofs from above in the lower left and the parked cars of all the people working in them.  By then the ingress/egress from Commerce had been eliminated in conjunction with the construction of the freeway in the background.

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[John Butler]

Ron,

The question of the buildings may be moot.  No. 1 represents the buildings in question.  No. 2 is an X that represents the area where Frank Cancellare took his photo.  The buildings in question do not appear to be correctly angled for the photo and they don’t appear to be the same buildings.  They appear to be west of the position they are shown in the photo.  Can those buildings be seen from Cancellare’s position when he took that photo?  I say no because of the height of the Triple Underpass and the height of the railroad embankment and parking lot.

My point in making the comments I made is that the Frank Cancellare photo should not be taken at face value.  Bill Newman in the grass posing for the photographers is sometime after the assassination not, directly after, maybe 3 to 5 minutes or more after at least 20 motorcade position vehicles have cleared Dealey Plaza and are no longer visible in photos.  The two motorcycle policemen were in the 21^st position of the motorcade.  The motorcade left Dealey Plaza in segments.  The question is was Bill Newman and family laying in the grass or lying (prevaricating) in the grass.

The timing of the photo calls into questions the relevance of the photo in relationship to the assassination.  I am not questioning anything Plumlee has said.  I believe that by the time the photo was taken any assassin, who was not mentally deficient, would have left the area.

It is an interesting photo, the 1966 photo of Dealey Plaza from the air.  No. 3 is a parking lot.  Before, it was a parking lot a building was there.  It was the blue-grey building that Jackie Kennedy said she saw in front of her to the left when she first heard shots being fired.  So, the building was torn down at least by 1966.  The building is on Main Street.  There are no blue-grey buildings on Houston Street or Elm Street.  That is probably the reason a building was torn down and replaced with a parking lot.   Nowadays, part of that area is the place of the Kennedy Monument.    

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 8:08 AM, John Butler said:

"Not really, it's the roof of a building in the distance, past the parking lot and railroad tracks.  What do snakes, spiders and ufo's have to do with the South Knoll or Tosh Plumlee's claims.  Are you off your med's John?"

Not really, Ron.  Maybe you should find something to take for your closed mind.

The object in the sky, I repeat in the sky, shows plenty of air between it and the ground.  Roof of a building?  Could be foot hills in the distance and brushed in buildings.  They do appear a bit strange. 

Have you ever been to Central Texas?  I spent a year there most of the time out in the woods and fields training around Fort Hood.  It's a place where you skake your boots out every morning.  Laying in the grass is a foolish endeavor. 

Maybe you can explain the giant pickup truck next to the alleged pygmy assassin under the tree east of the truck?  Or, the time of the Cancellare photo?  Can you explain Bill Newman's change of testimony? 

 

Brushed in buildings?  There are no foothills in the background, the land slopes down toward the Trinity river.  I've lived in North Central Texas all but about three of my 60 plus years.  Rattlesnakes and copperheads, the two primary poisonous species (water moccasins or cotton mouths prefer the wetter areas) are not common in the cities and towns though there are occasional sightings.  If someone was shooting over my head/shoulder the last thing I would think of before diving to a well mowed lawn would be a snake.  The Newman's weren't posing and while I'm sure they were scared for their own safety and that of their children I doubt they stayed down for five minutes.  

[John Butler]

I see. Not much of an argument other than an emotional one and a pretense of not understanding what was said.

That's all that needs to be said.  Let the reader decide.

[Rick McTague]

Since this is a discussion pertaining to the south knoll, I thought I would re-post a picture I took about a year ago from the concrete walkway portion of the triple underpass.  I am standing about 20' or so from the end of the walkway, right above where James Tague was standing down at street level.  You can see how a shooter from there would have the proper trajectory into the car for both frontal shots.  

The two maroon cars in the center lane are just about over the two X's in that lane marking two shots that hit JFK.  The one in the back is where the front throat shot hit, and the car in front is where the head shot hit.  With the curve in Elm, the position of JFK (ala Sherry Fiester) and the Parkland / other witnesses description of the wounds, you can see how the SK is a likely spot - much more likely IMO than the north knoll.  

Hope this helps.

Thanks

[Joe Bauer]

Doesn't the Z Film show when the second shot was taken, as JFK was hit a fraction of a second after?

Edited November 4, 2018 by Joe Bauer