Hitlers psychological make up

[Brian O Connor]

''Hi Brian. yes that study (I came across it in Wild Bill Donovans archive) is quite remarkable in many ways given it dates from earlier in the war. It actually predicts correctly what his end could be.

But we're really focusing at the pre WWI Hitler in the final analysis (at this point)?''

''Hi John, you`re right and I haven't been able to find the WW1 catastrophic battle event which might have triggered or caused Hitlers lust for revenge.

I have now returned to thinking that the period around the time of his birth and up to the war is just as important in understanding the development of his character and state of mind. The period was marked by an upsurge in and continued anti-Semitism throughout Austria and Europe. The world Zionist conferences began and the development of socialist Zionism continued to grow during the 1880`s and afterwards (an amazingly utopian idea and the model for the rebirth of Israel). I suppose that Hitlers need to blame others for his own shortcomings* will have found an easy scapegoat in the Jews and the Jewish socialist politics which he hated. (There is also the theory that his mother was in the care of a Jewish doctor at the time of her death and that this contributed to his hatred).

But, I have to agree that the conclusion is, that the root cause of his hatred lay in the perceived treachery of the surrender and the oppressive nature of the Versailles settlement, with all of his other pent up angers and humiliations finally finding vent in his need to revenge these events.''

*I think this is a key. IMO most people do this, many have various pre judices, but Adolf Shickelgrubers (16 part Jew) was extreme, indicating an abnormal psychology.

I see his art as similar to that of an idiot savant, which is not to say he was an Idiot in the true sense of the word, but his focus for it to have any impact necessitates support and financial support is ultimately a very important one. For example his backers I don't regard as anything more than Capitalists doing what they do and it was likely in their interest to promote him to not only the public but also to him himself. IOW his yearning to be an equal to such as Speer plus his god complex made him malleable to others less abnormal.

Where this abnormality came from I don't think has to do with the wider situation he found himself in in his youth but had a root cause before this, (and one could argue if not him, it would have been someone else). Millions of children had lost a father figure and the economic situation was extreme hyper inflation. Hitler solved it by disposessing a huge number of people who fit a common grouping but one mustn't forget that FIRST he had to eradicate his main opposition, the Communists who were for a time the main opposition grouping in German politics. (edit add: and in Mein Kamph writes that ultimately it is the Bolcheviks, ie the USSR, that must be dealt with, which was prob music to the ears of western industrialists, who'd lost the post revolution (which brought an end to WWI) Red-White War.)

I guess what I'm trying to bring into this is a pre existing abnormality AND economics.

I'm aware of the Zionist manifesto, but I've never regarded it as a socialist document.

What do you mean by this? ''socialist Zionism''

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edit add: Brian, have you ever come across a hypothesis that he may have been a highly functioning autist? The autistic spectrum is very wide associated also with other challenges for the autistic person and the common (mis)conception is often a stereotype.

Hi John, I agree Hitler and the Nazis were welcome allies to the industrialists worried at the growing strength of communism during the 20`s and early 30`s and the implications for them if communism were to gain superiority. They were happy supporting the supposedly controllable Hitler.

When I say “socialist” Zionism, I mean "my" interpretation of the philosophic principles behind and the method by which Zionists proposed to achieve the establishment of the State of Israel.

The first pioneer communities and settlements in Palestine were a pooling of the individuals resources and labour with each individual receiving a share of the product according to his needs. A philosophy developed in response to and in spite of centuries of terrible discrimination and violence against the Jews, who seeking emancipation for themselves developed a utopian ideal of communal living and self help with tolerance of outsiders. Other Jews disagreed with the idea of a solely nationalist solution, and like Trotsky sought, an international socialist revolution.

I looked up Hitler and Autism on Wikipedia and came across this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%...h#Mental_health , where Michael Fitzgerald, an expert in autism spectrum disorders concuded that Hitlers profile fits all the criteria of Asparagers syndrome.

[John Dolva]

Fascinating , Brian.

I' like to look at Zionism as opposed to Judaism, which in many ways inherently has hall marks of a communal lifestyle and look at Zionism as a means to an end.

Those who could then move into the conditions created by the application of Zionism (which can be seen as an act of terrorism) need not be Zionists at all.

If we are talking about Kibbutzes and such, they have a security exonomic necessity that drives them as a model, I think. More later.

On topic. Hitlers psychology. The conclusions catch me of course by surprise, but also not as I've had some experience working with people in this spectrum. The wiki article actually describes his conclusion with : ''autistic psychopathy (as)described by Hans Asperger''

I'd say that sums up the hypothesis forming in my mind.

The causes of autism is a subject under intense discussion continuously as there are many persons struggling with it and no one seems to have a definite answer. Personally, through my experience, diet in many instances can affect the severity of the syndrome but not necessarily ''cure'' it. One strand of thought is that it has to do with a kind of irritable bowel syndrome (not only deep in the body also deep in the psyche) that can be dealt with by such things as abstaining from certain foods. Perhaps being highly functioning and or having some guidance at some point this led to his rigid food intake regime. That (autism) plus psychosis (for perhaps whatever reason) perhaps is the road to the answer of the topic?

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edit add: a minor Q : why do you say ""supposedly'' controllable?

Edited April 25, 2010 by John Dolva

[Brian O Connor]

Fascinating , Brian.

I' like to look at Zionism as opposed to Judaism, which in many ways inherently has hall marks of a communal lifestyle and look at Zionism as a means to an end.

Those who could then move into the conditions created by the application of Zionism (which can be seen as an act of terrorism) need not be Zionists at all.

If we are talking about Kibbutzes and such, they have a security exonomic necessity that drives them as a model, I think. More later.

On topic. Hitlers psychology. The conclusions catch me of course by surprise, but also not as I've had some experience working with people in this spectrum. The wiki article actually describes his conclusion with : ''autistic psychopathy (as)described by Hans Asperger''

I'd say that sums up the hypothesis forming in my mind.

The causes of autism is a subject under intense discussion continuously as there are many persons struggling with it and no one seems to have a definite answer. Personally, through my experience, diet in many instances can affect the severity of the syndrome but not necessarily ''cure'' it. One strand of thought is that it has to do with a kind of irritable bowel syndrome (not only deep in the body also deep in the psyche) that can be dealt with by such things as abstaining from certain foods. Perhaps being highly functioning and or having some guidance at some point this led to his rigid food intake regime. That (autism) plus psychosis (for perhaps whatever reason) perhaps is the road to the answer of the topic?

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edit add: a minor Q : why do you say ""supposedly'' controllable?

Hi John, I don’t know enough about autism to be able to offer any opinion for the moment.

Regarding “the application of Zionism”, at least during its infancy in the period of the1880s up to the mid 1930s, I cannot agree that it in any way equates to terrorism. In fact, I believe that the philosophy of Zionism and the ideal behind the founding of the State of Israel was one of peaceful settlement, non confrontation, tolerance of and accommodation with those non Jews affected by the foundation of the State.

But, you are probably talking about the period since then and up to the present.

The late 30s up to `48 including a “dirty war” between Jewish militants responding to Arab nationalist attacks is a murky period and there were horrific atrocities committed by both sides. I think that a mistake was made in not partitioning the country in 1948, but this was not agreeable to the Arab side, which refused to accept an independent Israel, and thought it could solve the problem through war.

For me, the term Zionist stands today, for Israeli nationalism and Israel’s right to exist and defend itself. I am not defending Israel’s stance on settlements or its actions during the Intifadas or the Lebanon invasion, and I know that you will find many Zionists who are appalled and ashamed by this as well.

Probably more important than searching for a reason behind Schickelgrubers insanity, maybe I should have looked at the trauma suffered by Israelis today, born into the world to find out that their people have been discriminated against and persecuted for millennia, pogrom after pogrom, culminating in the holocaust.

Just saw the "Edit"; I meant that Hitlers industrialist financial backers may well have believed that he could be kept in check and would be a more advantageous prospect than the communist alternative they feared. And, that maybe not recognising his hold on the Nazis, probably assumed that he would be prevented from carrying out his more extreme policies.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Brian O Connor

[John Dolva]

Yes, you're absolutely right about me referring to the early actions in establishing Israel. Other sites were also proposed. There were splits in the Zionist movement. An interesting comment at the end. Israel is taking on more and more NAZI traits. There still is a militant left Jewsish movement in support of the palestinians and other dispossessed. Extremists are in control at the moment. I suspect that if it was not for outside influence Central Asia would sort out these issues more amicably than the way it is now.

[Brian O Connor]

Yes, you're absolutely right about me referring to the early actions in establishing Israel. Other sites were also proposed. There were splits in the Zionist movement. An interesting comment at the end. Israel is taking on more and more NAZI traits. There still is a militant left Jewsish movement in support of the palestinians and other dispossessed. Extremists are in control at the moment. I suspect that if it was not for outside influence Central Asia would sort out these issues more amicably than the way it is now.

Hi John, if we are talking about the early period then we will just have to disagree.

Although, someone said that as Moses had taken them 40 years up dead ends and back again then his route over Uganda might also have worked. But, the idea of Palestine as the true home of Israel is one that cant be argued with today.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Brian O Connor

[John Dolva]

I'm not sure what we are disagreeing on?

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I just read your edit too. I'd argue that they DID keep him in check and on target. Many forget that following the Wermacht(op Barbarossa) was the Einsatzgruppen that by the end of 43 had eliminated a large majority of those who were in the total victim count, and most of them were Soviet, whether Jew or not. Their original order was for the elimination of any Bolchevic and Bolchevic sympathiser.

[John Dolva]

Brian, with regards to the psychological make up, do you feel that something akin to Autism (highly functioning) (the psycopathy, imo, is clear) is a credible hypothesis as a workable answer to that issue?

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I think the other issues are worth discussing as well, but I need to synch with where you are at on those as far as time frame. I'm happy to do so, and it will mean me slowing down and studying each particular issue. It would be great if we could have a brainstorming session on theses matters to avoid missteps, but that's not possible given the slow format of forum communication. Either way this has been a stimulating discussion and within it many pointers for those who seek answers to the matters raised.

[Brian O Connor]

Brian, with regards to the psychological make up, do you feel that something akin to Autism (highly functioning) (the psycopathy, imo, is clear) is a credible hypothesis as a workable answer to that issue?

____

I think the other issues are worth discussing as well, but I need to synch with where you are at on those as far as time frame. I'm happy to do so, and it will mean me slowing down and studying each particular issue. It would be great if we could have a brainstorming session on theses matters to avoid missteps, but that's not possible given the slow format of forum communication. Either way this has been a stimulating discussion and within it many pointers for those who seek answers to the matters raised.

Hi John, I think that Autism is a possible explanation and well worth further investigation.

On the Zionist movement, I believe that the original principles and the ideal were honestly held and intended to be fulfilled in a peaceful and accommodating way in harmony with the Palestinians. Conflict and change occurred in the 20s and 30s with Arab agitation and Jewish reprisals by militant groups such as the Stern and Irgun groups. And, the conflict continues today.

The Palestinian homeland issue needs to be resolved, but when the opportunity was given the neighbouring Arab States couldn’t agree; to me it seems that for the most part all that they can agree on is their animosity towards Israel.

Sorry, still haven’t gotten round to reading the chapter on Stalins plans to attack Germany in `41, but will get back to you on this.

[John Dolva]

I think I'm going to have to do a fair bit of reading, rereading such things as the manifesto, its reinterpretation and later formational contribution from a small grouping to a larger one. Then it seems you are talking about the formative years of the PLO and its unification of variously treated /absorbed by all these neighbouring states. What they could agree on was, yes: there must be refuge. This has led enormous stresses that I don't think the West, apart from some nations,have done much to alleviate.

Then we could go back to the earlier jew - muslim periods proceeding this that were times of peace.

I've got a dvd on the german soviet conflict to look through.

[John Dolva]

Brian, I wonder if you could take time to look at and consider commenting on the Israeli topic in the JFK section to see whether you have anything to add?

I think the actual original manifesto is one thing, revision, influence and implementation another.

The important point imo is that Judaism and Zionism are two separate things. One is a religion another a political matter, even though they are intertwined. (There are Christian, Atheist et.c. Zionists eg.). Judaism is benign and must not be maligned when one is (ignorantly) really talking about Zionism.

There are significant pro-Palestinian Jews and anti-Zionist Jewsish movements in Israel.

[John Dolva]

Brian, I have acquired Mathias Schmidts ''Albert Speer : the end of a myth'' and ''The Third Reich'' by Michael Burleigh. I haven't started reading them yet. I wonder if you have and can comment on them (one or the other)?