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Evan Burton

The fall of Israel?

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yea. IMO the floatilla got exactly what they wanted, a confrontation. Poor martyr's gunned down by the evil Jews, when all tthey had to defend themself with was knives, pipes and deckchairs.

And look, it worked so wonderfully, inciting the wrath of the so called well meaning in the world.

Your comments in this thread are proof that evolution isn't always an improvement.

The political theater provide by the flotilla worked so wonderfully on you. You appear to be the perfect mark!

Yes, it was nothing but a theatre. Ships carrying humanitarian aid "weapons", people trying to slaughter the poor swat team with "weapons" such as marbles and plastic chairs...

What choice did the soldiers have other than shooting civilians at close range multiple times? Nothing could be as dangerous as a plastic chair!

If this is your reasoning, there is no sense arguing with you. You will remain ignorant of the Middle East conflict no matter how much and how often you are ridiculed for it.

AS far as I'm concerned your position does nothing to help the so called "Palestinian"s. You are a party to making it WORSE for them. Ah, but it makes you "FEEL" so good about yourself. You "CARE". What a laugh!

You really want to help the the so called "Palestinian's"? Then quit being an enabler. You want to inprove their lives? Counsel then to make a deal and move on. They have had plenty of good chances and they have declined. You and many other are using them for political cannon fodder. Shame on you!

Edited by Craig Lamson

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AS far as I'm concerned your position does nothing to help the so called "Palestinian"s. You are a party to making it WORSE for them. Ah, but it makes you "FEEL" so good about yourself. You "CARE". What a laugh!

You really want to help the the so called "Palestinian's"? Then quit being an enabler. You want to inprove their lives? Counsel then to make a deal and move on. They have had plenty of good chances and they have declined. You and many other are using them for political cannon fodder. Shame on you!

You wouldn't understand how I feel even if I tried to explain it to you for hours, because you lack the capacity, common sense and conscience.

How could you possibly know what is good/bad for the Palestinians? How could you have opinions on a subject you know nothing about?

And who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't do?

How did you come to the conclusion that I use Palestinians for "political cannon fodder"? What do you know about my political views?

Your efforts to make the massacre in Gaza justifiable are almost as horrible as your avatar.

Instead of throwing "shame on you" BS at me, do something positive ; educate yourself about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict.

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AS far as I'm concerned your position does nothing to help the so called "Palestinian"s. You are a party to making it WORSE for them. Ah, but it makes you "FEEL" so good about yourself. You "CARE". What a laugh!

You really want to help the the so called "Palestinian's"? Then quit being an enabler. You want to inprove their lives? Counsel then to make a deal and move on. They have had plenty of good chances and they have declined. You and many other are using them for political cannon fodder. Shame on you!

You wouldn't understand how I feel even if I tried to explain it to you for hours, because you lack the capacity, common sense and conscience.

How could you possibly know what is good/bad for the Palestinians? How could you have opinions on a subject you know nothing about?

And who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't do?

How did you come to the conclusion that I use Palestinians for "political cannon fodder"? What do you know about my political views?

Your efforts to make the massacre in Gaza justifiable are almost as horrible as your avatar.

Instead of throwing "shame on you" BS at me, do something positive ; educate yourself about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict.

If you support the ongoing conflict and don't constantly urge "Palestine" to take a deal and move on , you do NOTHING but enable the deaths that continue.

You want common sense, then condemn Hamas and the residents of Gaza for NOT doing something POSITIVE for themself. Like taking a deal and working towards a BETTER future, instead of living in a past they will never recover.

Lets review...the Flotilla was a POLITICAL STATEMENT, not humanitarian, it was DESIGNED to PROVOKE a CONFRONTATION and it did. Any YOU blame Israel???

Amazing!

Edited by Craig Lamson

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AS far as I'm concerned your position does nothing to help the so called "Palestinian"s. You are a party to making it WORSE for them. Ah, but it makes you "FEEL" so good about yourself. You "CARE". What a laugh!

You really want to help the the so called "Palestinian's"? Then quit being an enabler. You want to inprove their lives? Counsel then to make a deal and move on. They have had plenty of good chances and they have declined. You and many other are using them for political cannon fodder. Shame on you!

You wouldn't understand how I feel even if I tried to explain it to you for hours, because you lack the capacity, common sense and conscience.

How could you possibly know what is good/bad for the Palestinians? How could you have opinions on a subject you know nothing about?

And who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't do?

How did you come to the conclusion that I use Palestinians for "political cannon fodder"? What do you know about my political views?

Your efforts to make the massacre in Gaza justifiable are almost as horrible as your avatar.

Instead of throwing "shame on you" BS at me, do something positive ; educate yourself about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict.

If you support the ongoing conflict and don't constantly urge "Palestine" to take a deal and move on , you do NOTHING but enable the deaths that continue.

You want common sense, then condemn Hamas and the residents of Gaza for NOT doing something POSITIVE for themself. Like taking a deal and working towards a BETTER future, instead of living in a past they will never recover.

Lets review...the Flotilla was a POLITICAL STATEMENT, not humanitarian, it was DESIGNED to PROVOKE a CONFRONTATION and it did. Any YOU blame Israel???

Amazing!

I have never supported any conflict. To the contrary, I want it to end, like most people do.

Of course I condemn Hamas and its suicide bombings.But what about you? Would you care to condemn the Israeli army for killing innocents? I don't think so.

Hamas is the worst thing that has happened to Palestine.

I am and will always be against any act of violence targeting innocent people.

And as for your "deal", if it was the best option, why didn't you Americans take it when the British captured your land in the 1770s?

If it was so good, why did you fight back and establish an independent state?

In the same context, why did the Native Americans refuse to "take the deal" and revolt against the US Army?

When the Ottoman Empire was falling apart, it was invaded by many countries. Each one wanted a piece of land for themselves.

But they couldn't succeed. Because the people refused to be dominated. Because they refused to "take the deal".And they fought for their freedom.

Because every nation has the right to be independent.

If someone entered your house and claimed it was theirs, you'd do anything to get them out of your property, would you not?

What is amazing is your blind devotion to the Israeli government and your endless efforts to justify the cruelty going on in Gaza.

And yes, I blame the Israeli government for attacking the freedom flotila, I blame them for the blockade in Gaza that makes the civilians fight for an aspirin or a loaf of bread,

I blame them for all the suffering they cause in Palestine and I blame them for murdering the children of Gaza each and everyday without blinking an eye.

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A1, Cigdem. No doubt as an educator in the region and as a person in the region you are exposed to much we in the west often see little of. Craig, no one (reasonably anyway) deny the right of Jewish people to live in peace and happiness. The actions of the armed forces of the State of Israel doesn't do much for goodwill. It has to stop. An independent, strong Palestinian Homeland is essential for stability in the region.

Edited by John Dolva

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And as for your "deal", if it was the best option, why didn't you Americans take it when the British captured your land in the 1770s?

If it was so good, why did you fight back and establish an independent state?

In the same context, why did the Native Americans refuse to "take the deal" and revolt against the US Army?

:rolleyes:

Cigdem, did you not know that international rules do not apply to the United States. That is part of being a super-power. What amazes me is that Israel is treated the same way as the United States. How did they manage that?

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And as for your "deal", if it was the best option, why didn't you Americans take it when the British captured your land in the 1770s?

If it was so good, why did you fight back and establish an independent state?

In the same context, why did the Native Americans refuse to "take the deal" and revolt against the US Army?

:rolleyes:

Cigdem, did you not know that international rules do not apply to the United States. That is part of being a super-power. What amazes me is that Israel is treated the same way as the United States. How did they manage that?

John, I thought you might have learned this lesson by now. There are no "international rules" nor "international law". At best all there is "international suggestion".

Welcome to reality.

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AS far as I'm concerned your position does nothing to help the so called "Palestinian"s. You are a party to making it WORSE for them. Ah, but it makes you "FEEL" so good about yourself. You "CARE". What a laugh!

You really want to help the the so called "Palestinian's"? Then quit being an enabler. You want to inprove their lives? Counsel then to make a deal and move on. They have had plenty of good chances and they have declined. You and many other are using them for political cannon fodder. Shame on you!

You wouldn't understand how I feel even if I tried to explain it to you for hours, because you lack the capacity, common sense and conscience.

How could you possibly know what is good/bad for the Palestinians? How could you have opinions on a subject you know nothing about?

And who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't do?

How did you come to the conclusion that I use Palestinians for "political cannon fodder"? What do you know about my political views?

Your efforts to make the massacre in Gaza justifiable are almost as horrible as your avatar.

Instead of throwing "shame on you" BS at me, do something positive ; educate yourself about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict.

If you support the ongoing conflict and don't constantly urge "Palestine" to take a deal and move on , you do NOTHING but enable the deaths that continue.

You want common sense, then condemn Hamas and the residents of Gaza for NOT doing something POSITIVE for themself. Like taking a deal and working towards a BETTER future, instead of living in a past they will never recover.

Lets review...the Flotilla was a POLITICAL STATEMENT, not humanitarian, it was DESIGNED to PROVOKE a CONFRONTATION and it did. Any YOU blame Israel???

Amazing!

I have never supported any conflict. To the contrary, I want it to end, like most people do.

Of course I condemn Hamas and its suicide bombings.But what about you? Would you care to condemn the Israeli army for killing innocents? I don't think so.

Hamas is the worst thing that has happened to Palestine.

I am and will always be against any act of violence targeting innocent people.

And as for your "deal", if it was the best option, why didn't you Americans take it when the British captured your land in the 1770s?

If it was so good, why did you fight back and establish an independent state?

In the same context, why did the Native Americans refuse to "take the deal" and revolt against the US Army?

When the Ottoman Empire was falling apart, it was invaded by many countries. Each one wanted a piece of land for themselves.

But they couldn't succeed. Because the people refused to be dominated. Because they refused to "take the deal".And they fought for their freedom.

Because every nation has the right to be independent.

If someone entered your house and claimed it was theirs, you'd do anything to get them out of your property, would you not?

What is amazing is your blind devotion to the Israeli government and your endless efforts to justify the cruelty going on in Gaza.

And yes, I blame the Israeli government for attacking the freedom flotila, I blame them for the blockade in Gaza that makes the civilians fight for an aspirin or a loaf of bread,

I blame them for all the suffering they cause in Palestine and I blame them for murdering the children of Gaza each and everyday without blinking an eye.

What"innocents" did Israel kill in this instance?

Hamas IS Palestine as it stands now.

The BRITISH welcomed reality and took the deal.

The INDIANS welcomed reality and took the deal.

The invaders of the OTTOMAN welcomed reality and took the deal.

Its time for the so called PALESTINE to welcome reality and take the deal.

Maybe its also time for you to welcome reality.

Palestine is not a nation, and it has had the chance for 60 years to become one. Instead it chooses to reject reality

If someone were to invade my property and I was no longer able to defend it I would be required to accept the reality of the situation.

"Palestine" is responsible for the blockade of Gaza and they know how to end it. They choose to reject reality and thus the results fall to them as their fault.

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Eyewitness to Israel’s carnage

Sunday, June 6, 2010 The Qatar-based media network Al Jazeera has published on its website a series of harrowing eyewitness accounts from survivors of Israel’s military raid on a flotilla of ships bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza. An example is published below. To read the full list, visit www.english.aljazeera.net.

* * *

Haneen Zabi, member of the Knesset (Israeli parliament): “We were expecting the Israeli army to stop us, to prevent us from entering but surely we didn't expect such a war against us.

“It was 14 ships, which approached us nearly at 4.30 in the morning. On the second floor of the ship there were just passengers who are journalists, a nurse and organisers of the flotilla who didn't have anything in their hands.

“After 20 minutes, maybe 15 minutes, there were three dead bodies.”

Hazem Farouq, Egyptian MP from the Muslim Brotherhood: “Helicopters were flying above us ... They rained us with sound and gas bombs as if we were in real war.

“Four people died before my eyes and in my hands. We could not find any first aid material. What happened required a field hospital to treat the injured ... When we tried to carry the injured, the Israeli soldiers refused to allow men to carry the wounded. They pointed their guns with laser light toward their heads. They asked women to carry the wounded.”

Norman Peech, former German parliamentarian: “This was a very serious offence, this was a war crime. I personally saw two and a half wooden sticks which were used [by activists]. We had not prepared in any way to fight. We didn't even consider it.

“No violence, no resistance — because we knew very well that we would have absolutely no chance against soldiers like this.”

http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/44380

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What"innocents" did Israel kill in this instance?

Try to see the big picture, not just the flotilla incident.

Hamas IS Palestine as it stands now.

Yes, just like IRA is Ireland, PKK is the Kurds, Taliban is Afghanistan....

:rolleyes:

The BRITISH welcomed reality and took the deal.

They didn't take the deal. They got defeated in the war.

The INDIANS welcomed reality and took the deal.

They didn't take any deal. They were slaughtered until few groups of them remained.

The invaders of the OTTOMAN welcomed reality and took the deal.

They didn't. They got defeated in the war.

There is no war in Gaza. There is oppression, murder and pain but no war. Palestinians don't even have an army to defend themselves.

Its time for the so called PALESTINE to welcome reality and take the deal.

Maybe its also time for you to welcome reality.

I'm not interested in your alternative reality.

Palestine is not a nation, and it has had the chance for 60 years to become one. Instead it chooses to reject reality

If someone were to invade my property and I was no longer able to defend it I would be required to accept the reality of the situation.

No doubt!

"Palestine" is responsible for the blockade of Gaza and they know how to end it. They choose to reject reality and thus the results fall to them as their fault.

Yes, Palestinians love to starve, get killed, have bombs dropped on their heads and suffer from lack of medical supplies along with everything else. Makes perfect sense.

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And as for your "deal", if it was the best option, why didn't you Americans take it when the British captured your land in the 1770s?

If it was so good, why did you fight back and establish an independent state?

In the same context, why did the Native Americans refuse to "take the deal" and revolt against the US Army?

:rolleyes:

Cigdem, did you not know that international rules do not apply to the United States. That is part of being a super-power. What amazes me is that Israel is treated the same way as the United States. How did they manage that?

Of course! How naive of me! :D

As for your second question, Craig ought to know. Maybe he'd like to explain why Israel is considered a sacred cow.

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What"innocents" did Israel kill in this instance?

Try to see the big picture, not just the flotilla incident.

craig = blue: That IS the big picture. It appears your grasp of reality is slipping.

Hamas IS Palestine as it stands now.

Yes, just like IRA is Ireland, PKK is the Kurds, Taliban is Afghanistan....

:rolleyes:

It appears your grasp of reality is slipping

The BRITISH welcomed reality and took the deal.

They didn't take the deal. They got defeated in the war.

Of course they took the deal...they QUIT fighting. It appears your grasp of reality is gone.

The INDIANS welcomed reality and took the deal.

They didn't take any deal. They were slaughtered until few groups of them remained.

Of course they took the deal...they QUIT fighting. It appears your grasp of reality is gone.

The invaders of the OTTOMAN welcomed reality and took the deal.

They didn't. They got defeated in the war.

Of course they took the deal...they QUIT fighting. It appears your grasp of reality is gone.

There is no war in Gaza. There is oppression, murder and pain but no war. Palestinians don't even have an army to defend themselves.

WOW..no "war". What a fantasy world you have constructed for yourself.

Its time for the so called PALESTINE to welcome reality and take the deal.

Maybe its also time for you to welcome reality.

I'm not interested in your alternative reality.

I live in the real world. You should try it sometime.

Palestine is not a nation, and it has had the chance for 60 years to become one. Instead it chooses to reject reality

If someone were to invade my property and I was no longer able to defend it I would be required to accept the reality of the situation.

No doubt!

"Palestine" is responsible for the blockade of Gaza and they know how to end it. They choose to reject reality and thus the results fall to them as their fault.

Yes, Palestinians love to starve, get killed, have bombs dropped on their heads and suffer from lack of medical supplies along with everything else. Makes perfect sense.

They know how to STOP it yet they choose otherwise. So yes they have made a CHOICE to continue living as they do. You what to make it better for them....TELL THEM TO TAKE THE DEAL. Oh wait, that would require living in the real world. My bad.

Edited by Craig Lamson

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craig = blue: That IS the big picture. It appears your grasp of reality is slipping.

They know how to STOP it yet they choose otherwise. So yes they have made a CHOICE to continue living as they do. You what to make it better for them....TELL THEM TO TAKE THE DEAL. Oh wait, that would require living in the real world. My bad.

What, you're a psychiatrist now? Or have you been inhaling too much "chemtrails" lately? :rolleyes:

-------------

Why Israel Enforces the Naval Blockade of the Gaza Strip

Recent attempts by the Israeli military to stop humanitarian aid from reaching the Gaza Strip have drawn world attention to the 1.5 million Palestinians living in deprivation. The seizure of the Rachel Corrie, named for an American activist crushed to death in 2003 by an Israeli Defense Force (IDF) bulldozer, is the latest effort to thwart the Israeli blockade. The ship was diverted to the port of Ashdod.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly justified the blockade of the Gaza Strip on the basis of Hamas rockets fired from Gaza into Israel. Since the June 2007 blockade began, however, only 30 deaths resulted from rocket attacks while the Israeli military offensive of December 2008 resulted in the deaths of 1,200 Palestinians. One of the greatest problems facing the people of Gaza is hunger and thus the reason for outside humanitarian aid.

The On-Going Crisis of Need in Gaza

Already in December 2008, The Observer, using United Nations' data, stated that 51.8 percent of the Palestinians in Gaza were "living below poverty line." The situation has only worsened. Adrian Blomfield, writing from Gaza City for the Telegraph (June 5, 2010), states that "people have been forced to subsist rather than live." At the same time, he quotes a pro-Israel commentator, Gerald Steinberg, who blamed the media hype on UN reports as "simply political propaganda." Professor Steinberg heads the NGO Monitor.

Steinberg, as other apologists for Israeli military intervention to stop outside humanitarian aid by running the blockage, maintains that the relationship between Israel and the Gaza Palestinians is a military confrontation and any such aid should be considered immoral. (BBC interview, June 1, 2010) Under the guise of humanitarian aid, activists could supply the Palestinians with the means to continue a military confrontation.

The Legal Center for Freedom of Movement (Gisha) publishes a list of prohibited goods regarding the Gaza Strip. Gisha is based in Israel and is supported by both Jews and Arabs. Prohibited items include chocolate, vinegar, fresh meat, fabric for clothing, fishing rods, spare parts for tractors, newspapers, and various fishing nets. Many of the prohibited items directly affect the Palestinian’s ability to farm and fish.

Read more at Suite101: Why Israel Enforces the Naval Blockade of the Gaza Strip

Edited by Cigdem Göle

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craig = blue: That IS the big picture. It appears your grasp of reality is slipping.

They know how to STOP it yet they choose otherwise. So yes they have made a CHOICE to continue living as they do. You what to make it better for them....TELL THEM TO TAKE THE DEAL. Oh wait, that would require living in the real world. My bad.

What, you're a psychiatrist now? Or have you been inhaling too much "chemtrails" lately? :rolleyes:

-------------

It appears that reality thing is really not working out too well for you is it?

BTW, why don't you show us all a list of the "humanitarian aid" aboard the Mavi Marmara...heck how about the entire flotilla, and then show us a list of those itens that were accepted into GAZA by Hamas?

BTW, why is the a shortage of anything in Gaza. The reality is that Gaza is not landlocked by Israel. They have a border with Egypt. The reality is that Israel does not control Egypt. So why is there a shortage of anything in GAZA again?

Reality bites.

Edited by Craig Lamson

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It appears that reality thing is really not working out too well for you is it?

Save your poor psychoanalytic abilities to yourself.

BTW, why don't you show us all a list of the "humanitarian aid" aboard the Mavi Marmara...heck how about the entire flotilla, and then show us a list of those itens that were accepted into GAZA by Hamas?

Google is your friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid#Cargo_of_the_flotilla

BTW, why is the a shortage of anything in Gaza. The reality is that Gaza is not landlocked by Israel. They have a border with Egypt. The reality is that Israel does not control Egypt. So why is there a shortage of anything in GAZA again?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing

The Rafah crossing was opened on November 25, 2005, and operated nearly daily until June 25, 2006.[1]

Between then and November 2006, it was closed by Israel on 86% of days due to security reasons.[1] It was not opened for the export of goods.[1]

In June 2007, it was closed entirely by Egypt after the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip.

The EU Ambassador to Israel said that EUBAM monitors could not return to man the crossing

because the legal basis for EUBAM - the November 2005 agreement on movement and access - specified that the terminal was to be

manned by the Fatah-aligned Force 17, who were no longer there.[2]

On January 23, 2008, masked gunmen demolished the wall, that Hamas-linked militants had apparently weakened in 2007,[3] dividing

the Egyptian and Palestinian portions of Rafah,[citation needed] and several hundred thousand Gazans entered Egypt, most of them to buy food and supplies.[3]

(See 2008 breach of the Gaza–Egypt border.)

On December 27, 2008, Egypt opened the crossing to care for the wounded after the Israeli airstrikes in Gaza (See 2008 Gaza Strip bombings.)

On June 1, 2010, Egypt opened the crossing until further notice after the Israeli flotilla raid event in the international waters of theMediterranean Sea.

As of June 2, movement at the crossing was slow, for unclear bureaucratic reasons.[4]

Reality bites.

You ought to know.

edit : broken links

Edited by Cigdem Göle

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