Lifton attacks Fetzer over 9/11 and Israeli complicity

[Terry Mauro]

If I understand your explanation, the Palestinians had their chance at a homeland as well and resented the establishment of Israel where they hoped to establish theirs.

Walt, that is partly correct and partly incorrect. The "Palestinians" did have their chance at sovereignty and failed to sieze it for LACK OF EFFORT. It was their's for the "declaring" --which they declined to do. However, it is the Arab States (not necessarily the "Palestinians") who resent the existence of a Jewish State. This is one of the most important distinctions to be understood about this conflict. It really isn't "Israelis vs Palestinians" at all--and never has been! That is the "front operation" to conceal the real agenda, which is: Anti-Jews vs Jews. I know it sounds too simplistic, but--it is what it is. Anti-Jews are not the same as anti-semitic. Anti-semitic is a mis-nomer for anti-Jew.

If you are correct, only they are to blame for not following suit and declaring their own state back in the 40's.

Well, that's not what I meant. I don't claim that the "Palestinians" are to blame. I think that, as "a people" they have no power because they have no cohesiveness. There are no "Palestinians" because there is no "Palestine" no matter that such a label has been assigned to non-Jewish settlers in that region. So, I don't think that they're to blame for their plight. However, their plight is not improved by any of the Arab States in the region. It is exacerbated without any mercy extended to them because they are being exploited for only one reason: the DESTRUCTION of the State of Israel.

Who fired the first shot has some relevance but some 62 years later there is enough blame to be shared by all sides.

It has more than passing relevance. The first shot has been followed by the second, third, fourth, and fifth (plus) shots, so far.

Israel has nothing in its CHARTER calling for the destruction of Arab States. However, several Arab States have such an order/goal contained in their CHARTER. That's right, calling for "the Jews to be driven into the sea..."

Such things change the playing field considerably--as they should.

I find it sad that many Israeli actions smack of the very tactics used by the fascists who hunted them down in the 30 and 40's.

I have seen no evidence of that, Walt. None. While I don't agree with every action they have taken, still none rise to that level--not by a long shot! Gas chambers? Ovens? Mass graves? -- not close...

I don't condone the Arab attacks on Israel by any means either. The United States government sees what it wants to see and often at the expense of fairness.

I have yet to see Israel attack a neighbor unprovoked! Never. The closest example--was when they blew up a Nuclear facility that would be capable of producing weapons in Syria. Yet, keep in mind, Syria has a sworn CHARTER to DESTROY Israel--so I can hardly call it "unprovoked" at all!

I can see the Neocons and Zionists working together to pull off a 9/11 attack like I can see the CIA, the Pentagon and the Mafia working together to bump off JFK. I am open to any scenario that makes sense.

Me too.

___________________________________________________________________________

I found a map which shows where Palestine had been prior to 1948. Here's the link.

Map of Israel

Israel was created in 1948, after UN Resolution 181 partitioned the territory of the British Mandate for Palestine into two states for Jews and Palestinian ...

www.mideastweb.org/misrael.htm - Cached - Similar

Show more results from www.mideastweb.org

The land variously called Israel and Palestine at different times in history, is a small, (10,000 square miles at present) land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea. During its long history, its area, population and ownership varied greatly. The present state of Israel formally occupies all the land from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean ocean, bounded by Egypt in the south, Lebanon in the north, and Jordan in the East. The recognized borders of Israel constitute about 78% of the land. The remainder is divided between land occupied by Israel since the 1967 6-day war and the autonomous regions under the control of the Palestinian autonomy. The Gaza strip occupies an additional 141 square miles south of Israel along the sea coast, and is mostly under the control of the Palestinian authority with small areas occupied by Israeli settlements.

Prior to 1917, the territory that is now called Palestine and Israel was ruled by the Ottoman Turkish Empire, and included three sanjaks (districts). The name "Palestine," that was used by Roman and briefly by Arab rulers, was revived by the British, who received a mandate from the League of Nations to administer Palestine as a national home for the Jewish people.

Israel was created in 1948, after UN Resolution 181 partitioned the territory of the British Mandate for Palestine into two states for Jews and Palestinian Arabs. The Arabs objected to the creation of the Jewish state and fought a war against it. The Arab side lost the war, and the Palestinian state never really came into being. The territory allotted to the Palestinian state by the UN partition resolution was taken over by Israel and Jordan. About 780,000 Palestinians became refugees.

Beginning in 1993, the Oslo agreements promised gradual withdrawal of Israel from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Palestinians were hopeful that this process would end in a state for them. However, the peace process was marred by terrorist attacks, Israeli proliferation of settlements and negotiations that seemed to lead nowhere. Following breakdown of the final status negotiations in the summer of 2000, riots erupted in September 2000 when Israeli right wing political leader Ariel Sharon paid a controversial visit to the temple mount, in the Al-Aqsa mosque compound, holy to Muslims.. Palestinians refused to accept the agreement offered by US President Clinton in December 2000, and violence continued at least until the beginning of 2005. Israel has reoccupied large parts of the territory it had ceded to the Palestinians in the West Bank during the Oslo peace process, and continues to build settlements on Palestinian land (click for map). Election of relatively moderate Mahmoud Abbas as Palestinian Authority President and the Israeli disengagement plan (withdrawal from Gaza and four West Bank settlements) offered new hope of peace. See Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Since Oslo

Israel has a population of over 6.5 million, of whom about 14.5% are Muslims and about 3% are Druze or Christian. Most of the remainder are Jews. Per capita GDP is about $23,000 and literacy rates are over 95%. Life expectancy is over 75 years, and infant mortality about 7 per thousand, comparing favorably with Europe and North America. The Palestinian areas account for about 2,800 square miles of the total territory. They have a population estimated at about 3 million, per capita GDP of under $2,000, literacy rate of about 86% and infant mortality of 33 per thousand.

More History

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Since Oslo

See also -Palestine

Ami Isseroff

In a nutshell: the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

News

Views

More Country Facts

Population of Palestine before 1948

President Harry S. Truman and US Support for Creation of Israel

The Palestinian Refugees

Zionism

Bibliography -

Zionism

Mandate Palestine

Palestine & Palestinians

Israel and Palestine Since 1918

Discussion Forum

Copyright 2001 -2005, by MidEastWeb for Coexistence

The above article is copyright by MidEastWeb and the author. Please tell your friends about MidEastWeb. Please forward these materials in e-mails to friends and link to this URL - http://www.mideastweb.org. You can print out materials for your own use or classroom use, giving the URL of MidEastWeb, without asking our explicit permission. Printed material should bear this notice:

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Reproduction in any other form - by permission only. Please do not copy materials from this Web site to your Web site.

Map of Israel

[Jack White]

David, citing the Amazing Randi...the professional debunker...is not a good choice.

Jack

David emails me:

Jack,

Please note. I never cited Randi.

This is apparently part of a misunderstanding as to how a post that I did

write, was PRECEDED by something that I never wrote.

If I was more Internet savvy, I would probably have cropped the

discussion--where I was trying to insert something--more carefully. But I

didn't. The result: it appears that something written by someone else, was

written by me.

But just scroll up (earlier) and it should be clear that I never wrote that.

To repeat: I never cited Randi. But someone else did, and a piece of that

appeared prior to the post that I did write.

Thanks,

DSL

Sorry, David...sometimes on postings where links are cut and pasted,

it is difficult to determine who said what. I did not actually go to the

link to read it, but recognized it as RANDI's website. He is a debunker

of ALL conspiracies.

The forum "QUOTE" format often makes it difficult to determine who said

what.

Jack

[Dean Hagerman]

<!--quoteo(post=194619:date=Jun 7 2010, 05:58 PM:name=Dean Hagerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dean Hagerman @ Jun 7 2010, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=194619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=194577:date=Jun 7 2010, 07:12 AM:name=Jack White)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jack White @ Jun 7 2010, 07:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=194577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->David, citing the Amazing Randi...the <b>professional debunker</b>...is not a good choice.

Jack<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The Amazing Randi is awesome

<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No, just "Amazing". And only when he sticks with magic.

Jack

Yes Jack I am only talking about his magic, and his shows where he debunks other magacians and pyschics

I could care less what he thinks about the assassination or any other conspiracy

[Dean Hagerman]

has as much backing in real science as a Uri Geller spoon.

[Greg Burnham]

Thanks for your post, Terry, which confirms much of what I wrote. It should come as no surprise that whenever any significant development toward Palestinian self rule occurs, Israel is attacked by one (or more) of her neighbors. This has been happening since 1948. It is in Israel's own self interest for there to be a Palestinian State. The successful establishment of such an official Palestinian State does not and would not threaten Israel in any way. The Jews have been living with Palestinians while surrounded by mostly anti-Jewish Arab States for more than a half century already. It would benefit Israel if the Palestinians declared and were capable of sustaining sovereignty. If that were to happen, such status might well be honored by Israel. Indeed, it would be supported! We have no evidence suggesting otherwise.

The Palestinians are not the enemies of the Israelis--and the vast majority of Israeli citizens (and leaders) are intelligent enough to identify the real enemy or they couldn't have survived this long. A state of perpetual conflict between Israel and her neighbors is par for the course when those neighbors have sworn to destroy her. The mis-characterization of that conflict as existing between "Israelis and Palestinians" is in the interest of those Arab States who have sworn to "drive the Jews into the sea" as it diverts attention away from their agenda.

Some would cite the fact that several hundred thousand "Palestinian" Arabs either voluntarily left their homes in 1948 protesting the existence of the Jewish State, which was a result of the UN Resolution that partitioned the land, or they were driven from their homes in the ensuing conflict. Although I don't deny the tragedy that befalls refugees, it is grossly unfair to suggest that Israel was wrong to accept a homeland that was legally acquired according to International Law.

There are certain requirements for a nation to become sovereign and there are other requirements for a nation to REMAIN that way. One requirement is that a nation who would be soveriegn must be capable of holding their territory. Indeed, THAT is the ultimate litmus test of sovereignty. Israel's neighbors have militarily challenged her ability to "hold her territory" several times. So far, their challenges have failed. Wanna bet when the next MAJOR challenge is launched? Yeah, it'll be the next time there is any real hope of Palestinians living in peace with Jews. The challenge to Israel's sovereignty will come from her Arab neighbors in the form of surface-to-surface missile attacks, destruction of ports-of-call, or pathetically, in the form of suicide bombers intentionally taking out civilian by-standers. When Israel repels the attack, she will ironically be labeled the "agressor" -- Go figure...

If I understand your explanation, the Palestinians had their chance at a homeland as well and resented the establishment of Israel where they hoped to establish theirs.

Walt, that is partly correct and partly incorrect. The "Palestinians" did have their chance at sovereignty and failed to sieze it for LACK OF EFFORT. It was their's for the "declaring" --which they declined to do. However, it is the Arab States (not necessarily the "Palestinians") who resent the existence of a Jewish State. This is one of the most important distinctions to be understood about this conflict. It really isn't "Israelis vs Palestinians" at all--and never has been! That is the "front operation" to conceal the real agenda, which is: Anti-Jews vs Jews. I know it sounds too simplistic, but--it is what it is. Anti-Jews are not the same as anti-semitic. Anti-semitic is a mis-nomer for anti-Jew.

If you are correct, only they are to blame for not following suit and declaring their own state back in the 40's.

Well, that's not what I meant. I don't claim that the "Palestinians" are to blame. I think that, as "a people" they have no power because they have no cohesiveness. There are no "Palestinians" because there is no "Palestine" no matter that such a label has been assigned to non-Jewish settlers in that region. So, I don't think that they're to blame for their plight. However, their plight is not improved by any of the Arab States in the region. It is exacerbated without any mercy extended to them because they are being exploited for only one reason: the DESTRUCTION of the State of Israel.

Who fired the first shot has some relevance but some 62 years later there is enough blame to be shared by all sides.

It has more than passing relevance. The first shot has been followed by the second, third, fourth, and fifth (plus) shots, so far.

Israel has nothing in its CHARTER calling for the destruction of Arab States. However, several Arab States have such an order/goal contained in their CHARTER. That's right, calling for "the Jews to be driven into the sea..."

Such things change the playing field considerably--as they should.

I find it sad that many Israeli actions smack of the very tactics used by the fascists who hunted them down in the 30 and 40's.

I have seen no evidence of that, Walt. None. While I don't agree with every action they have taken, still none rise to that level--not by a long shot! Gas chambers? Ovens? Mass graves? -- not close...

I don't condone the Arab attacks on Israel by any means either. The United States government sees what it wants to see and often at the expense of fairness.

I have yet to see Israel attack a neighbor unprovoked! Never. The closest example--was when they blew up a Nuclear facility that would be capable of producing weapons in Syria. Yet, keep in mind, Syria has a sworn CHARTER to DESTROY Israel--so I can hardly call it "unprovoked" at all!

I can see the Neocons and Zionists working together to pull off a 9/11 attack like I can see the CIA, the Pentagon and the Mafia working together to bump off JFK. I am open to any scenario that makes sense.

Me too.

___________________________________________________________________________

I found a map which shows where Palestine had been prior to 1948. Here's the link.

Map of Israel

Israel was created in 1948, after UN Resolution 181 partitioned the territory of the British Mandate for Palestine into two states for Jews and Palestinian ...

www.mideastweb.org/misrael.htm - Cached - Similar

Show more results from www.mideastweb.org

The land variously called Israel and Palestine at different times in history, is a small, (10,000 square miles at present) land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea. During its long history, its area, population and ownership varied greatly. The present state of Israel formally occupies all the land from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean ocean, bounded by Egypt in the south, Lebanon in the north, and Jordan in the East. The recognized borders of Israel constitute about 78% of the land. The remainder is divided between land occupied by Israel since the 1967 6-day war and the autonomous regions under the control of the Palestinian autonomy. The Gaza strip occupies an additional 141 square miles south of Israel along the sea coast, and is mostly under the control of the Palestinian authority with small areas occupied by Israeli settlements.

Prior to 1917, the territory that is now called Palestine and Israel was ruled by the Ottoman Turkish Empire, and included three sanjaks (districts). The name "Palestine," that was used by Roman and briefly by Arab rulers, was revived by the British, who received a mandate from the League of Nations to administer Palestine as a national home for the Jewish people.

Israel was created in 1948, after UN Resolution 181 partitioned the territory of the British Mandate for Palestine into two states for Jews and Palestinian Arabs. The Arabs objected to the creation of the Jewish state and fought a war against it. The Arab side lost the war, and the Palestinian state never really came into being. The territory allotted to the Palestinian state by the UN partition resolution was taken over by Israel and Jordan. About 780,000 Palestinians became refugees.

Beginning in 1993, the Oslo agreements promised gradual withdrawal of Israel from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Palestinians were hopeful that this process would end in a state for them. However, the peace process was marred by terrorist attacks, Israeli proliferation of settlements and negotiations that seemed to lead nowhere. Following breakdown of the final status negotiations in the summer of 2000, riots erupted in September 2000 when Israeli right wing political leader Ariel Sharon paid a controversial visit to the temple mount, in the Al-Aqsa mosque compound, holy to Muslims.. Palestinians refused to accept the agreement offered by US President Clinton in December 2000, and violence continued at least until the beginning of 2005. Israel has reoccupied large parts of the territory it had ceded to the Palestinians in the West Bank during the Oslo peace process, and continues to build settlements on Palestinian land (click for map). Election of relatively moderate Mahmoud Abbas as Palestinian Authority President and the Israeli disengagement plan (withdrawal from Gaza and four West Bank settlements) offered new hope of peace. See Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Since Oslo

Israel has a population of over 6.5 million, of whom about 14.5% are Muslims and about 3% are Druze or Christian. Most of the remainder are Jews. Per capita GDP is about $23,000 and literacy rates are over 95%. Life expectancy is over 75 years, and infant mortality about 7 per thousand, comparing favorably with Europe and North America. The Palestinian areas account for about 2,800 square miles of the total territory. They have a population estimated at about 3 million, per capita GDP of under $2,000, literacy rate of about 86% and infant mortality of 33 per thousand.

More History

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Since Oslo

See also -Palestine

Ami Isseroff

In a nutshell: the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

News

Views

More Country Facts

Population of Palestine before 1948

President Harry S. Truman and US Support for Creation of Israel

The Palestinian Refugees

Zionism

Bibliography -

Zionism

Mandate Palestine

Palestine & Palestinians

Israel and Palestine Since 1918

Discussion Forum

Copyright 2001 -2005, by MidEastWeb for Coexistence

The above article is copyright by MidEastWeb and the author. Please tell your friends about MidEastWeb. Please forward these materials in e-mails to friends and link to this URL - http://www.mideastweb.org. You can print out materials for your own use or classroom use, giving the URL of MidEastWeb, without asking our explicit permission. Printed material should bear this notice:

"Copyright by MidEastWeb for Coexistence R.A. - http://www.mideastweb.org All rights Reserved. "

Reproduction in any other form - by permission only. Please do not copy materials from this Web site to your Web site.

Map of Israel

Edited June 14, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[Len Colby]

In Fetzer’s view, “the Jews” (over the last 150 years, at least) are responsible for many of the evils of the modern world, and when one buys into his theory that the State of Israel was the responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center, the circle is complete (as they say) and the elements are all there for demonizing the Jews, and for arguing, to a large extent, that they are the “first cause” of much evil in the modern world.

Fetzer has long collaborated with anti-Semites and continues to do so to this day. In his book Jews are dual loyalists

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16191

[Frankie Vegas]

David, citing the Amazing Randi...the professional debunker...is not a good choice.

Jack

The Amazing Randi is awesome

Unfortunately, several of Randi's "followers" have decided to try and "debunk" all conspiracy theories of the Kennedy assassination. They repeat Posner and Bugliosi nonsense as gospel, and worship McAdams, Lattimer, and Myers. They fail to see that the "magic bullet" theory they rely on has as much backing in real science as a Uri Geller spoon.

Thats a bloody good one, that last line. Seamus said you were a laugh (He told me to check out your autopsy stuff as well)

Edited July 20, 2010 by Frankie Fortune

[Dean Hagerman]

Come on Len, are you trying to say that Fetzer is an anti-semite?

If thats what your trying to say I think you are way off base

[Len Colby]

Come on Len, are you trying to say that Fetzer is an anti-semite?

If thats what your trying to say I think you are way off base

Unfortunately I think that's what the preponderance of the evidence indicates. I used to think he mean displayed incredibly bad judgment associating with the more blatant anti-Semites, but one must wonder why he consistently hangs out with, interviews and/or endorses such people. Can you you point to any other major 9/11 personality who has done so as much as he has. Seeing two essays in which he alleged that members of the Bush administration he didn't like were "dual citizens" simply because because they were Jewish reinforced that suspicion. But what dispelled any doubts was hearing him enthusiastically read chapters from a book which blamed Jews for:

-prolonging WWI by 2 years

-the US's entry into the war AND

-undermining the morale of the German's leading to the defeat of the axis

-the harsh conditions of the Versailles treaty AND

-economic problems in Germany and thus the rise of Hitler

-Pearl Harbor and the US entry into WWII.

Chapters which approvingly quote infamous anti-Semites like Charles Lindbergh, Henry Ford and even Hitler. It is no exaggeration to say the books summary of history 1914 - 45 is straight Nazi.

Dean despite your view on alteration and dedication to Fetzer and White you seem like a reasonable person to me. So read the revolting xxxx Fetzer read on his show and has repeatedly endorsed. Then tell me if you honestly don't think it is anti-Semitic and then tell me if we can fail to draw the same conclusion about someone who has so strongly endorsed it.

This chapter and the next are the ones Lifton and I most objected to - http://saveourwetlands.org/strangerzionism.htm you can hear Fetzer reading them on the link from yesterday's post

Edited July 20, 2010 by Len Colby

[Frankie Vegas]

Come on Len, are you trying to say that Fetzer is an anti-semite?

If thats what your trying to say I think you are way off base

Unfortunately I think that's what the preponderance of the evidence indicates. I used to think he mean displayed incredibly bad judgment associating with the more blatant anti-Semites, but one must wonder why he consistently hangs out with, interviews and/or endorses such people. Can you you point to any other major 9/11 personality who has done so as much as he has. Seeing two essays in which he alleged that members of the Bush administration he didn't like were "dual citizens" simply because because they were Jewish reinforced that suspicion. But what dispelled any doubts was hearing him enthusiastically read chapters from a book which blamed Jews for:

-prolonging WWI by 2 years

-the US's entry into the war AND

-undermining the morale of the German's leading to the defeat of the axis

-the harsh conditions of the Versailles treaty AND

-economic problems in Germany and thus the rise of Hitler

-Pearl Harbor and the US entry into WWII.

Chapters which approvingly quote infamous anti-Semites like Charles Lindbergh, Henry Ford and even Hitler. It is no exaggeration to say the books summary of history 1914 - 45 is straight Nazi.

Dean despite your view on alteration and dedication to Fetzer and White you seem like a reasonable person to me. So read the revolting xxxx Fetzer read on his show and has repeatedly endorsed. Then tell me if you honestly don't think it is anti-Semitic and then tell me if we can fail to draw the same conclusion about someone who has so strongly endorsed it.

This chapter and the next are the ones Lifton and I most objected to - http://saveourwetlands.org/strangerzionism.htm you can hear Fetzer reading them on the link from yesterday's post

Theres an old adage Len, 'you are what you eat'. I've been watching the forums for a year or so before I decided to drop in. In Jim Fetzers case, I would hesitate to decry him as an anti Semite. The same as I would a complete and utter jerk like David Icke. However, it is their lack of judgement in sources and associates that really is their undoing. It shows chronically bad judgement. Its the sort of judgement that undermines any vestiges of credibility they have as researchers (Icke never had any, and Jims unfortunately heading that way with aplomb). I mean stumping for JVB and no planes hitting the WTC. Help! They are fairly 'out there' concepts anyhow. But when JF lauds Greg Hallet http://www.greghallett.com/. You get everything you deserve. Worst of all Hallett's from New Zealand.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Frankie Fortune

[Dean Hagerman]

I will take a look Len, but again from what I know about Jim I just cant see him having those kinds of anti-semitic leanings

[Jack White]

I will take a look Len, but again from what I know about Jim I just cant see him having those kinds of anti-semitic leanings

Jim is not anti-semitic. He is anti-Zionist. There is a difference.

Jack

[Len Colby]

I will take a look Len, but again from what I know about Jim I just cant see him having those kinds of anti-semitic leanings

Jim is not anti-semitic. He is anti-Zionist. There is a difference.

Jack

They are different but not in anyway mutually exclusive, your friend is both. His hearty endorsement of and reading on air of a Naziesque text regarding the role of Jews in early 20th century history leaves no doubt. But since you take things on faith you won't even bother to read it.

[Evan Burton]

To all concerned: please remember that Prof Fetzer is a Forum member in good standing here, and the current discussion is moving close to what may be considered a personal attack on another member. Please carefully consider what you say.

Thank you.

[Len Colby]

To all concerned: please remember that Prof Fetzer is a Forum member in good standing here, and the current discussion is moving close to what may be considered a personal attack on another member. Please carefully consider what you say.

Thank you.

Evan bear in mind that

1) Fetzer, not one of his detractors is the person who started this thread.

2) Though he could argue Lifton attacked him first elsewhere, Fetzer's opening post was an attack on Lifton who is also a member of the forum.

3) Fetzer is also a public figure and is if he is going to use his status to endorse racism there is nothing wrong with bringing it to the forum’s attention.