HARRY J. DEAN

[John Dolva]

Apparently there was a two year long california senate UA subcommittee that investigated the JBS under Sen Burch(Dem, Ca) released mid 63 . I haven't seen it. Perhaps it's reasonable to assume the FBI may have been consulted?

ref: http://mdah.state.ms...2|13|1|1|47681|

edit:add scroll down the bottom to find buttons to prev next page for some more stuff

Edited June 9, 2010 by John Dolva

[William Kelly]

Bill:

1. First, with respect to Rabbi Kahane. When I contacted his widow, Libby, she replied to me as follows:

"My information on this subject is based only on Rabbi Kahane's own statements. The FBI informed me that they had no information about any connection between him and the Birch Society. I received a hundreds of photocopies of memos and reports from the FBI, and cited them in my book about Rabbi Kahane. I found nothing in any of that material about the John Birch Society."

BK: But Rabbi Kahane was assassinated and his assassin did escape in a cab and shot a policeman in the course of getting away, and the police tried to brand it a lone nut case until they tied it to a terrorits cell that included Doubleagent Ali Mohamaid, who trained FBI agents and Special Ops soldiers at Qunatico. What's the JBS got to do with it?

2. Second, I am not "on a campaign to clean up FBI informant files and expose those who make a living claiming they were FBI informants when in fact they were not".

How could you possibly arrive at that conclusion from what I have written thus far?

BK: Hi Ernie, Knowing Seal Team Six has a detachment that straightens out anyone who falsely claims they are Navy Seals, I thought you may be an FBI version of those guys because that's the way you came off.

I am sharing factual data from my years of research into FBI files.

BK: Having just checked your site I see you are not FBI but have quite a collection of FBI files.

And you say you are sharing them, thanks. I'm sure members of this forum will have tons of requests for you, as Bill Simpich is working on informants and Jim Root is looking for a pres-assassination Hosty FBI document that was never made part of the official record and is apparently hard to find. Perhaps your records can help them.

It would also be interesting to see if you have any informants files on Kafke or the other Mexico City contingent.

I am sorry if that upsets you -- but it does not change the facts of the situation. Maybe you are emotionally invested in this matter and you don't care what the facts are?

And yes, I do care what the facts are and do take a personal interest in witnesses who have been honest with me, like my friend Harry, who hasn't read his own 166 document thick FBI file, or his CIA file or his Cuban G2 file. But like I said, I'm sure he will assist you in getting them if you are polite and don't start out by calling him a xxxx just because you can't find an JBS informant's pay stub. I'd suggest you start out not by looking up Harry's name in the JBS file and finding nothing there, but by reading what records we do have on Harry, including letters and memos from the director who took an unusual interest in him.

3. If I was in your position, perhaps I too would claim that the FBI is covering up Harry's true status. But you don't explain why they would be interested in doing that.

BK: Yea, why does JEH himself take such a personal interest in a low level rat like Harry?

We are perilously close to a circular argument here. A circular argument starts with an unproven predicate (such as Harry Dean was an FBI informant within the JBS)

BK: You're the one going around in circles, as you are the one who is focused on JBS, while I was more interested in his FPCC and visit to Cuba.

and then all subsequent statements are based upon and flow from the unproven predicate. Please share with us your methodology regarding HOW you separate fact from fiction.

BK: The facts are that Harry Dean was in the FPCC, did visit Cuba, was interrogated by the G2 and by the CIA on his return, and was pals with Guy Galby, Rousellot, Hall and Seymore and other street level operators and we now know a lot more about them and what they were doing because of Harry. Harry was a part of the same intelligence network and at the same level as Oswald. Where's the fiction? You say Harry claims to have been an FBI informant on the JBS, and you can't substantiate that with paystubs? Is that how you write fiction?

4. As I previously mentioned, over the past 30 years I have acquired the FBI files of many actual FBI informants. Some of them were discontinued as informants because of specific personal problems. For example, Matt Cvetic was initially a very productive and useful informant but his chronic alcoholism and domestic violence and relentless demands for more money caused his Justice Dept handlers to conclude he was no longer reliable. Karl Prussion was dropped because he revealed his FBI informant status, without permission, to a Los Angeles TV personality and because of his inconsistent statements.

BK: That LATV personality would't be Joe Pyne, Tom Snyder or Peter Noyes would it?

Other informants who surfaced and testified in court proceedings or before legislative committees were highly regarded by the FBI (such as Julia Brown and Lola Belle Holmes) until they associated themselves with political extremist groups such as the Birch Society and they started fabricating lurid stories in order to increase their prospective income opportunities.

BK: Now you've twice implied that you are upset about people making a living off claiming to be FBI informants, but we know that is not the case with Harry.

All of these pecadillos and problems are thoroughly documented in their FBI files -- so one wonders why Harry Dean would be treated so differently?

(a) WHY is there is NOT ONE document in any JBS file that refers to him? (WHY is there NOT ONE expense report? WHY is there NOT ONE summary concerning information he supposedly provided? d) WHY is there NOT ONE reference to ANY person whom the FBI used as an "informant" within the JBS -- other than the persons who contacted the FBI on their own and provided unsolicited information of no particular consequence?

BK: I don't know the answers to your questions but I do know of other cases where the records are not being released, and maybe Harry is a special case because of his JFK connections. While I believe that what happened at Dealey Plaza was a military coup, and the JBS did not arrange for the assassiation, others have focused some of their research and writings on the JBS, besides Harry, including Bill Turner and Peter Noyes, the Calif. TV journalist whose pulp paperback book "Legacy of Doubt" has recently been rereleased.

I thought it a little suspicious that you show up here shortly after Harry posted:

Jack Ruby {LHO assassin} testified to Chief Justice Warren... "there is an organization here Chief Justice Warren, if it takes my life to say it, there is a John Birch Society {JBS} a very powerful organization right now in activity, and {General} Edwin Walker is one of the top men in this organization..."

The black bordered ad " Welcome Mr. Kennedy, to Dallas" was a creation of the John Birch Society through JBS Schmidt and Grinnan, who maintained they were acting "solely as individuals" Grinnan, was a Dallas independent oil operator and John Birch Society coordinator in the Dallas area.

The WANTED FOR TREASON ad handbill, Robert A. Surrey was eventually identified by FBI as the author. Surrey a 38 year old printing salesman employed by Johnson Printing Co. in Dallas,Tex has been closely associated with General Walker for several years in his political and business activities.

Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit at the time of the JFK assassination was working weekends in a Dallas restaurant owned by a member of The John Birch Society

Check out Jack Ruby's testimony to Warren and Rep.

{later US. President} Gerald Ford

Is that what sparked you to join the forum?

And Thanks for the JBS links at MF, B.

Welch, a Navy guy, founds JBS and names it after John Birch, an American missionary is China who assists Jimmy Doolittle and his men to safety, and when Doolittle tells Gen. Chennault of the Flying Tigers about him, Birch is recruited into the service, made a Lt in OSS under Maj. Gustav Krause and sets up an intelligence network that was extremely successful in monitoring the activities of the Japanese in China and contributing to their loss. At the end of the war Birch is killed by the Chinese Communists, and is memorialized by Welch as the first victim of the Cold War.

JFK was another victim of the Cold War.

Here's some articles written by Seth Kantor, who wrote the book on Ruby,

Which quotes Attorney General RFK saying the JBS were ridiculous (Welch claimed Eisenhower was a Commie) and they're not worth paying attention to and there's no investigation at this time.

Here's two more connections: Revilo P. Oliver, who testified extensively before the Warren Commission, and Herbert Philbrick, Oswald's childhood hero and the FBI informant-agent provocateur who really did make a living on promoting his FBI role in preventing the Communists from taking over the Littletown Massachusetts Board of Education. Philbrick is also said to have expressed foreknowledge of the assassination.

Edited June 9, 2010 by William Kelly

[Ernie Lazar]

John: you are referring to the only official investigation ever conducted into the JBS by the California Senate Factfinding Subcommittee on Un-American Activities.

The Chairman was State Senator Hugh Burns (Democrat, Fresno). The investigation commenced in 1961 but the Report was not issued until 1963 -- and it was updated again in 1965.

Robert Welch praised the Subcommittee for presenting what he considered a fair fact-based report even though the Subcommittee was controlled by Democrats -- some of whom (including Chairman Burns) were hostile toward the JBS. In fact, Welch was so impressed with the Report that he reprinted it along with a detailed critique of sections which he thought contained errors.

The FBI was NOT consulted.

I will attempt to attach a copy of the JBS reprint to this message but if it doesn't work and anyone would like a copy of the report and Welch's critique, send me your email and I will forward it to you. ernie1241@aol.com

Apparently there was a two year long california senate UA subcommittee that investigated the JBS under Sen Burch(Dem, Ca) released mid 63 . I haven't seen it. Perhaps it's reasonable to assume the FBI may have been consulted?

ref: http://mdah.state.ms...2|13|1|1|47681|

edit:add scroll down the bottom to find buttons to prev next page for some more stuff

Edited June 9, 2010 by Ernie Lazar

[John Dolva]

Ok, thanks Ernie. You state quite categorically that the FBI was not in any way consulted? I presume the docs verify this, or there was felt no need for it? Yep, Burns, TY, I git birchers on the brain.

[Ernie Lazar]

Ok, thanks Ernie. You state quite categorically that the FBI was not in any way consulted? I presume the docs verify this, or there was felt no need for it? Yep, Burns, TY, I git birchers on the brain.

The Subcommittee's "investigation" consisted of taking about 100 sworn affidavits from JBS members in California and reviewing JBS literature. There are some factual errors in the Subcommittee Report and one JBS National Council member sent a letter to another Council member which stated that the Subcommittee's Chief Counsel (Richard Combs) "is on our side" -- which might explain why the Report was, overall, quite favorable -- although it did contain some perceptive criticisms.

The FBI had no connections with the Subcommittee. There is nothing in the FBI file on the JBS to indicate that the Subcommittee ever contacted the Bureau or vice versa with respect to the JBS. However, the FBI did obtain a copy of the 1963 Report when it was completed. Keep in mind that the Bureau had much better sources of information than the Subcommittee had.

One source, for example, was Herbert Philbrick (of I Led Three Lives fame) who was very familiar with many of the senior leaders and prominent members of the JBS.

The Bureau also received reports from ONI (Naval Intelligence) and G-2 (Army Intelligence) which were quite illuminating concerning the beliefs of the JBS and the type of persons who were associated with the organization.

In addition, the Bureau received THOUSANDS of letters from JBS members and supporters along with JBS critics and numerous frightened citizens who listened to JBS speakers or read JBS literature-- so it was quite aware of the type of alarmist and extremist beliefs promoted by the JBS.

Very early on, the Bureau concluded that the JBS was a "right wing extremist" organization and it characterized the JBS as "irrational", "irresponsible", "lunatic fringe" and "fanatics" --- which is certainly much different from what the California Subcommittee Report presented.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

Bill: I wrote a lengthy reply to your comments but, for some reason, it was deleted. I don't feel like re-typing it again so I will just say this: you have created several straw man arguments and misrepresented what I have previously written. If you wish to continue this discussion -- you may contact me at:

ernie1241@aol.com

List of my FOIA requests: http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/foia

Bill:

1. First, with respect to Rabbi Kahane. When I contacted his widow, Libby, she replied to me as follows:

"My information on this subject is based only on Rabbi Kahane's own statements. The FBI informed me that they had no information about any connection between him and the Birch Society. I received a hundreds of photocopies of memos and reports from the FBI, and cited them in my book about Rabbi Kahane. I found nothing in any of that material about the John Birch Society."

BK: But Rabbi Kahane was assassinated and his assassin did escape in a cab and shot a policeman in the course of getting away, and the police tried to brand it a lone nut case until they tied it to a terrorits cell that included Doubleagent Ali Mohamaid, who trained FBI agents and Special Ops soldiers at Qunatico. What's the JBS got to do with it?

2. Second, I am not "on a campaign to clean up FBI informant files and expose those who make a living claiming they were FBI informants when in fact they were not".

How could you possibly arrive at that conclusion from what I have written thus far?

BK: Hi Ernie, Knowing Seal Team Six has a detachment that straightens out anyone who falsely claims they are Navy Seals, I thought you may be an FBI version of those guys because that's the way you came off.

I am sharing factual data from my years of research into FBI files.

BK: Having just checked your site I see you are not FBI but have quite a collection of FBI files.

And you say you are sharing them, thanks. I'm sure members of this forum will have tons of requests for you, as Bill Simpich is working on informants and Jim Root is looking for a pres-assassination Hosty FBI document that was never made part of the official record and is apparently hard to find. Perhaps your records can help them.

It would also be interesting to see if you have any informants files on Kafke or the other Mexico City contingent.

I am sorry if that upsets you -- but it does not change the facts of the situation. Maybe you are emotionally invested in this matter and you don't care what the facts are?

And yes, I do care what the facts are and do take a personal interest in witnesses who have been honest with me, like my friend Harry, who hasn't read his own 166 document thick FBI file, or his CIA file or his Cuban G2 file. But like I said, I'm sure he will assist you in getting them if you are polite and don't start out by calling him a xxxx just because you can't find an JBS informant's pay stub. I'd suggest you start out not by looking up Harry's name in the JBS file and finding nothing there, but by reading what records we do have on Harry, including letters and memos from the director who took an unusual interest in him.

3. If I was in your position, perhaps I too would claim that the FBI is covering up Harry's true status. But you don't explain why they would be interested in doing that.

BK: Yea, why does JEH himself take such a personal interest in a low level rat like Harry?

We are perilously close to a circular argument here. A circular argument starts with an unproven predicate (such as Harry Dean was an FBI informant within the JBS)

BK: You're the one going around in circles, as you are the one who is focused on JBS, while I was more interested in his FPCC and visit to Cuba.

and then all subsequent statements are based upon and flow from the unproven predicate. Please share with us your methodology regarding HOW you separate fact from fiction.

BK: The facts are that Harry Dean was in the FPCC, did visit Cuba, was interrogated by the G2 and by the CIA on his return, and was pals with Guy Galby, Rousellot, Hall and Seymore and other street level operators and we now know a lot more about them and what they were doing because of Harry. Harry was a part of the same intelligence network and at the same level as Oswald. Where's the fiction? You say Harry claims to have been an FBI informant on the JBS, and you can't substantiate that with paystubs? Is that how you write fiction?

4. As I previously mentioned, over the past 30 years I have acquired the FBI files of many actual FBI informants. Some of them were discontinued as informants because of specific personal problems. For example, Matt Cvetic was initially a very productive and useful informant but his chronic alcoholism and domestic violence and relentless demands for more money caused his Justice Dept handlers to conclude he was no longer reliable. Karl Prussion was dropped because he revealed his FBI informant status, without permission, to a Los Angeles TV personality and because of his inconsistent statements.

BK: That LATV personality would't be Joe Pyne, Tom Snyder or Peter Noyes would it?

Other informants who surfaced and testified in court proceedings or before legislative committees were highly regarded by the FBI (such as Julia Brown and Lola Belle Holmes) until they associated themselves with political extremist groups such as the Birch Society and they started fabricating lurid stories in order to increase their prospective income opportunities.

BK: Now you've twice implied that you are upset about people making a living off claiming to be FBI informants, but we know that is not the case with Harry.

All of these pecadillos and problems are thoroughly documented in their FBI files -- so one wonders why Harry Dean would be treated so differently?

(a) WHY is there is NOT ONE document in any JBS file that refers to him? (WHY is there NOT ONE expense report? WHY is there NOT ONE summary concerning information he supposedly provided? d) WHY is there NOT ONE reference to ANY person whom the FBI used as an "informant" within the JBS -- other than the persons who contacted the FBI on their own and provided unsolicited information of no particular consequence?

BK: I don't know the answers to your questions but I do know of other cases where the records are not being released, and maybe Harry is a special case because of his JFK connections. While I believe that what happened at Dealey Plaza was a military coup, and the JBS did not arrange for the assassiation, others have focused some of their research and writings on the JBS, besides Harry, including Bill Turner and Peter Noyes, the Calif. TV journalist whose pulp paperback book "Legacy of Doubt" has recently been rereleased.

I thought it a little suspicious that you show up here shortly after Harry posted:

Jack Ruby {LHO assassin} testified to Chief Justice Warren... "there is an organization here Chief Justice Warren, if it takes my life to say it, there is a John Birch Society {JBS} a very powerful organization right now in activity, and {General} Edwin Walker is one of the top men in this organization..."

The black bordered ad " Welcome Mr. Kennedy, to Dallas" was a creation of the John Birch Society through JBS Schmidt and Grinnan, who maintained they were acting "solely as individuals" Grinnan, was a Dallas independent oil operator and John Birch Society coordinator in the Dallas area.

The WANTED FOR TREASON ad handbill, Robert A. Surrey was eventually identified by FBI as the author. Surrey a 38 year old printing salesman employed by Johnson Printing Co. in Dallas,Tex has been closely associated with General Walker for several years in his political and business activities.

Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit at the time of the JFK assassination was working weekends in a Dallas restaurant owned by a member of The John Birch Society

Check out Jack Ruby's testimony to Warren and Rep.

{later US. President} Gerald Ford

Is that what sparked you to join the forum?

And Thanks for the JBS links at MF, B.

Welch, a Navy guy, founds JBS and names it after John Birch, an American missionary is China who assists Jimmy Doolittle and his men to safety, and when Doolittle tells Gen. Chennault of the Flying Tigers about him, Birch is recruited into the service, made a Lt in OSS under Maj. Gustav Krause and sets up an intelligence network that was extremely successful in monitoring the activities of the Japanese in China and contributing to their loss. At the end of the war Birch is killed by the Chinese Communists, and is memorialized by Welch as the first victim of the Cold War.

JFK was another victim of the Cold War.

Here's some articles written by Seth Kantor, who wrote the book on Ruby,

Which quotes Attorney General RFK saying the JBS were ridiculous (Welch claimed Eisenhower was a Commie) and they're not worth paying attention to and there's no investigation at this time.

Here's two more connections: Revilo P. Oliver, who testified extensively before the Warren Commission, and Herbert Philbrick, Oswald's childhood hero and the FBI informant-agent provocateur who really did make a living on promoting his FBI role in preventing the Communists from taking over the Littletown Massachusetts Board of Education. Philbrick is also said to have expressed foreknowledge of the assassination.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

Bill: MY REPLIES ARE UNDERNEATH YOUR COMMENTS IN BLUE FONT

1. First, with respect to Rabbi Kahane. When I contacted his widow, Libby, she replied to me as follows:

"My information on this subject is based only on Rabbi Kahane's own statements. The FBI informed me that they had no information about any connection between him and the Birch Society. I received a hundreds of photocopies of memos and reports from the FBI, and cited them in my book about Rabbi Kahane. I found nothing in any of that material about the John Birch Society."

BK: But Rabbi Kahane was assassinated and his assassin did escape in a cab and shot a policeman in the course of getting away, and the police tried to brand it a lone nut case until they tied it to a terrorits cell that included Doubleagent Ali Mohamaid, who trained FBI agents and Special Ops soldiers at Qunatico. What's the JBS got to do with it?

I don't understand your point. My point is that Rabbi Kahane also claimed to have infiltrated the JBS for the FBI -- but there is NO evidence whatsoever to confirm that and even his widow acknowledges that she had no evidence to support the statements made by her husband.

2. Second, I am not "on a campaign to clean up FBI informant files and expose those who make a living claiming they were FBI informants when in fact they were not".

How could you possibly arrive at that conclusion from what I have written thus far?

BK: Hi Ernie, Knowing Seal Team Six has a detachment that straightens out anyone who falsely claims they are Navy Seals, I thought you may be an FBI version of those guys because that's the way you came off.

Oh please stop -- this is silly. Historical research is fact-based and honest researchers report whatever they discover and they are not concerned if interested parties approve or disapprove of what is found. The purpose of historical research is simply to find and report pertinent data--preferably from primary sources.

I am sharing factual data from my years of research into FBI files.

BK: Having just checked your site I see you are not FBI but have quite a collection of FBI files.

And you say you are sharing them, thanks. I'm sure members of this forum will have tons of requests for you, as Bill Simpich is working on informants and Jim Root is looking for a pres-assassination Hosty FBI document that was never made part of the official record and is apparently hard to find. Perhaps your records can help them.

It would also be interesting to see if you have any informants files on Kafke or the other Mexico City contingent.

No, I don't. A list of my FOIA requests may be found here: http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/foia

I am sorry if that upsets you -- but it does not change the facts of the situation. Maybe you are emotionally invested in this matter and you don't care what the facts are?

And yes, I do care what the facts are and do take a personal interest in witnesses who have been honest with me, like my friend Harry, who hasn't read his own 166 document thick FBI file, or his CIA file or his Cuban G2 file. But like I said, I'm sure he will assist you in getting them if you are polite and don't start out by calling him a xxxx just because you can't find an JBS informant's pay stub. I'd suggest you start out not by looking up Harry's name in the JBS file and finding nothing there, but by reading what records we do have on Harry, including letters and memos from the director who took an unusual interest in him.

This is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I previously stated. My point is that EVERY actual FBI informant had a very lengthy paper trail.

That paper trail began with a detailed background investigation which summarized their entire history (education, employment, military service, marital, credit reports, political activities, etc) and then once accepted as a probationary informant, there were numerous periodic reports which they provided to the Special Agent(s) who handled the informant.

Then, there were annual summaries prepared by each field office and sent to HQ to describe the type of information received from each informant and there usually was an estimate of what percentage of the information received from the informant was considered reliable.

Then, if the informant had any expenses whatsoever related to his FBI-connected activities OR if he/she was being paid a monthly amount for his/her services, there were documents prepared by the Special Agent in Charge of the field office for approval by HQ. HQ then replied to those requests for payments.

In addition, there were often memos in FBI files which summarized what use was made of the information provided by their informants and, for example, whether or not the informant ever testified in administrative or court proceedings, or before legislative committees.

Then, AFTER the informant ended his/her relationship with the Bureau -- their file continued to be updated to reflect anything which required Bureau attention -- such as for example: public appearances or anything written by the informant which discussed his/her FBI experiences, inquiries from the public or media about the informant, etc.

Again, I point out to you that NOTHING WHATSOEVER appears in either the FBI's HQ file on the JBS or the Los Angeles field office file on the JBS concerning Harry Dean EXCEPT that one memo which I previously quoted where the Assistant Director in Charge of the Los Angeles field office explicitly stated that Harry was never an informant nor was he ever asked by the FBI to do anything -- and certainly not with respect to the JBS. So the burden of proof is on Harry Dean. For example: Harry should provide us with:

(1) the names of his FBI handler(s) to whom he allegedly reported his JBS-related information

(2) the name and location of the JBS chapter which he claims he infiltrated -- including the Chapter Leader's name

(3) the code name used by the FBI to identify Harry

(4) and, ideally, a notarized affidavit authorizing the Bureau to release any documents they have concerning him so someone can submit an FOIA request. OR Harry can ask for the documents himself and then share copies of FBI memos which discuss him

Lastly, just for clarification: MANY people CLAIMED to be associated with the FBI or military intelligence or other entities because they used that claim to create an aura of authority for their writings and speeches and speculations.

I am sure you have read recent news reports about politicians who falsely CLAIMED to have served in Vietnam or they CLAIMED to have received medals which, in reality, they did NOT receive or which were of less significance than what they initially described. This happens all the time. It is NOT uncommon. For example: one prominent Birch Society member (David Emerson Gumaer) made speeches all over the country under JBS auspices in which he claimed that he was associated with the FBI and the House Committee on Un-American Activities. He also claimed to have worked as an undercover intelligence operative for the Chicago Police Department.

Here is the FBI summary concerning Gumaer:

“A review of Bureau indices determined numerous references for Dave Emerson Gumaer. A review of Bureau file 62-113743 determined that Gumaer, who was never an FBI employee or an FBI informant, is allegedly a right-wing, anti-Semitic extremist. Gumaer was an undercover operative of the Chicago Police Department in the 1960’s being directed against 'new left’ organizations. He came to the attention of the Bureau in 1970-1971, when he undertook a multi-state speaking engagement on behalf of the John Birch Society, of which he was a member. During these speeches, wherein Gumaer would indicate his prior undercover activities and relationship with the Chicago PD, Gumaer also identified himself as an FBI informant working matters of a similar nature for the Bureau. These speeches were generally of an alarmist nature, intended to arouse the wrath of conservative America to the ever growing threat from ‘new left’ and ‘Communist backed’ movements in the U.S. Considerable correspondence was received at FBIHQ, due to Gumaer’s purporting to be an FBI informant, in addition to his inflammatory rhetoric during these speeches.”

3. If I was in your position, perhaps I too would claim that the FBI is covering up Harry's true status. But you don't explain why they would be interested in doing that.

BK: Yea, why does JEH himself take such a personal interest in a low level rat like Harry?

Another straw man argument. I've seen no evidence that Hoover ever took any such interest -- but if he did, it most likely would be because of something which Harry Dean said or wrote about the FBI which was not factually correct OR something Harry used in a dishonest, exaggerated, or misleading way to inflate his credentials and create an aura of authority he did not possess

We are perilously close to a circular argument here. A circular argument starts with an unproven predicate (such as Harry Dean was an FBI informant within the JBS)

BK: You're the one going around in circles, as you are the one who is focused on JBS, while I was more interested in his FPCC and visit to Cuba.

I have no interest in those topics. You responded to my original message which focused SOLELY upon Harry's claims regarding his alleged "informant" status for the FBI inside the JBS.

and then all subsequent statements are based upon and flow from the unproven predicate. Please share with us your methodology regarding HOW you separate fact from fiction.

BK: The facts are that Harry Dean was in the FPCC, did visit Cuba, was interrogated by the G2 and by the CIA on his return, and was pals with Guy Galby, Rousellot, Hall and Seymore and other street level operators and we now know a lot more about them and what they were doing because of Harry. Harry was a part of the same intelligence network and at the same level as Oswald. Where's the fiction? You say Harry claims to have been an FBI informant on the JBS, and you can't substantiate that with paystubs? Is that how you write fiction?

Again, a deliberate misrepresentation of what I wrote. If you do this again, I will conclude that you are not intellectually honest. Carefully re-read my summary above. The "paystubs" argument is a total straw man. I merely pointed out that among ALL THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF DOCUMENTATION that exist in actual informant files -- there are often documents reporting payments made to them. That is merely ONE type of data which can exist in an informant file.

4. As I previously mentioned, over the past 30 years I have acquired the FBI files of many actual FBI informants. Some of them were discontinued as informants because of specific personal problems. For example, Matt Cvetic was initially a very productive and useful informant but his chronic alcoholism and domestic violence and relentless demands for more money caused his Justice Dept handlers to conclude he was no longer reliable. Karl Prussion was dropped because he revealed his FBI informant status, without permission, to a Los Angeles TV personality and because of his inconsistent statements.

BK: That LATV personality would't be Joe Pyne, Tom Snyder or Peter Noyes would it?

Other informants who surfaced and testified in court proceedings or before legislative committees were highly regarded by the FBI (such as Julia Brown and Lola Belle Holmes) until they associated themselves with political extremist groups such as the Birch Society and they started fabricating lurid stories in order to increase their prospective income opportunities.

BK: Now you've twice implied that you are upset about people making a living off claiming to be FBI informants, but we know that is not the case with Harry.

There are MANY reasons why people try to EXPLOIT real or imaginary connections to the FBI or other agencies of government. Or why they LIE about their military service. Or why they inflate their credentials to present themselves as "experts" or "authorities" when, in reality, they are neither OR their knowledge is limited in time, place, and scope. Once again, you are creating a straw man argument and then expecting me to refute your straw man.

All of these pecadillos and problems are thoroughly documented in their FBI files -- so one wonders why Harry Dean would be treated so differently?

(a) WHY is there is NOT ONE document in any JBS file that refers to him? (WHY is there NOT ONE expense report? WHY is there NOT ONE summary concerning information he supposedly provided? d) WHY is there NOT ONE reference to ANY person whom the FBI used as an "informant" within the JBS -- other than the persons who contacted the FBI on their own and provided unsolicited information of no particular consequence?

BK: I don't know the answers to your questions but I do know of other cases where the records are not being released, and maybe Harry is a special case because of his JFK connections. While I believe that what happened at Dealey Plaza was a military coup, and the JBS did not arrange for the assassiation, others have focused some of their research and writings on the JBS, besides Harry, including Bill Turner and Peter Noyes, the Calif. TV journalist whose pulp paperback book "Legacy of Doubt" has recently been rereleased.

Harry is NOT "a special case". And you are correct, you do not know the answers to my questions.

I thought it a little suspicious that you show up here shortly after Harry posted:

WHEN could I have posted a message that would NOT be "suspicious" to you? Give me a date and I will post my next message according to your schedule -- lol.

Jack Ruby {LHO assassin} testified to Chief Justice Warren... "there is an organization here Chief Justice Warren, if it takes my life to say it, there is a John Birch Society {JBS} a very powerful organization right now in activity, and {General} Edwin Walker is one of the top men in this organization..."

The black bordered ad " Welcome Mr. Kennedy, to Dallas" was a creation of the John Birch Society through JBS Schmidt and Grinnan, who maintained they were acting "solely as individuals" Grinnan, was a Dallas independent oil operator and John Birch Society coordinator in the Dallas area.

The WANTED FOR TREASON ad handbill, Robert A. Surrey was eventually identified by FBI as the author. Surrey a 38 year old printing salesman employed by Johnson Printing Co. in Dallas,Tex has been closely associated with General Walker for several years in his political and business activities.

Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit at the time of the JFK assassination was working weekends in a Dallas restaurant owned by a member of The John Birch Society

Check out Jack Ruby's testimony to Warren and Rep.

{later US. President} Gerald Ford

Is that what sparked you to join the forum?

And Thanks for the JBS links at MF, B.

Welch, a Navy guy, founds JBS and names it after John Birch, an American missionary is China who assists Jimmy Doolittle and his men to safety, and when Doolittle tells Gen. Chennault of the Flying Tigers about him, Birch is recruited into the service, made a Lt in OSS under Maj. Gustav Krause and sets up an intelligence network that was extremely successful in monitoring the activities of the Japanese in China and contributing to their loss. At the end of the war Birch is killed by the Chinese Communists, and is memorialized by Welch as the first victim of the Cold War.

JFK was another victim of the Cold War.

Here's some articles written by Seth Kantor, who wrote the book on Ruby,

Which quotes Attorney General RFK saying the JBS were ridiculous (Welch claimed Eisenhower was a Commie) and they're not worth paying attention to and there's no investigation at this time.

Here's two more connections: Revilo P. Oliver, who testified extensively before the Warren Commission, and Herbert Philbrick, Oswald's childhood hero and the FBI informant-agent provocateur who really did make a living on promoting his FBI role in preventing the Communists from taking over the Littletown Massachusetts Board of Education. Philbrick is also said to have expressed foreknowledge of the assassination.

[Greg Parker]

Ernie, you are absolutely correct that the FBI did not investigate groups like the JBS and White Citizen's Council (amazingly even when they had cause to).

Greg, you are wrong on two counts. The FBI did investigate the White Citizens Councils and, in fact, there is a SAC Letter (instructions to all Special Agents in Charge of field office) which explicitly instructs pertinent field offices how they should handle their investigations. I recently received the file on the Association of Citizens Councils of Mississippi (HQ 105-34237) which contains an 11-page memo that is devoted entirely to listing the investigative file numbers for every FBI file opened on a Citizens Council group -- alphabetically by state. So, obviously, your knowledge about this matter is not credible.

From a document in Goldwater's FBI file:

"The Mobile Division advised...there was no organization known as the 'White Citizens Council' in Mongomery, Alabama, at the present time. There has been in existence... an organization publicly known as 'Montgomery Citizens Council' aka 'Montomery County Citizens Council', however the membership of this organization is not known to this office, DUE TO BUREAU REGULATIONS PROHIBITING ACTIVE INVESTIGATION OF CITIZENS COUNCILS[emphasis mine]."

Second, every field office was required to adhere to specific protocols regarding use of informants. Those protocols were spelled out in mind-numbing detail in the FBI's Manual of Instructions. All of the files I have obtained of FBI informants make it very clear that field office SAC's (Special Agents in Charge) were aware of those protocols and followed them -- OR -- they received blistering letters from HQ Supervisors which addressed their shortcomings.

As someone who has worked in a large bueaucracy, I can only say that that statement is naive in the extreme. Those on the ground work around such "mind-numbing" protocols/policies/procedural guildelines. If they did not, little would ever get done. FBI secrets: an agents exposé confirms the FBI was no different in that regard. One thing I did get wrong was the name of the author. Fist name "Wesley", not "Lesley" as I previously stated.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Greg Parker

[Ernie Lazar]

GREG:

You obviously have no knowledge about the disciplinary procedures routinely undertaken within the Bureau – particularly when field offices were subjected to inspections and they had to account for each and every violation of standard Bureau policies. These inspections even commented upon grammar errors in Special Agent reports submitted to headquarters OR inappropriate headings used on field office memos!

Many FBI Special Agents had their careers ruined because of their inability to follow Bureau procedures or their inattention to picayune instructions from Headquarters.

Apparently, you place great trust in the Swearingen book. But you never explained HOW you went about verifying the accuracy of the statements he made in his book. Perhaps you could share with us exactly what you did in this regard?

Have you ever bothered to read any of the very detailed books and articles written by our nation's foremost scholars on the FBI as an organization as well as on Hoover? I suggest, for example, that you read books by arguably our nation's most knowledgeable scholar on FBI history -- Dr. Athan Theoharis. You will INSTANTLY discover that the FBI "bureaucracy" was NOT run in some slipshod manner where omissions and commissions were dismissed or ignored.

[Ernie Lazar]

Greg: I understand your confusion about this matter and I will give you some background which should clarify the matter.

Let’s start at the beginning. May 17, 1954

The precipitating event which resulted in the creation of White Citizens Councils (which, incidentally, often were organized under totally different names including as gun clubs) was the 1954 Supreme Court de-segregation decision.

By letter dated December 10, 1954, William F. Tompkins, Assistant Attorney General, Internal Security Division, sent a memo to J. Edgar Hoover concerning the first citizens councils formed in Mississippi AND the American States Rights Association. Tompkins attached an article which was published in the Washington DC Post and Times-Herald on Sunday, November 21, 1954 regarding those organizations. In his short memo to Hoover, Tompkins instructed Hoover as follows:

“It is suggested that an investigation be made regarding these organizations with a view to their being considered for designation pursuant to Executive Order 10450 relating to the Federal employee security program. Particular emphasis should be placed on any policies or activities which indicate that the organizations have ‘adopted a policy of advocating or approving the commission of acts of force and violence to deny others their rights under the Constitution of the United States’ “

That last sentence (in italics) is the operative wording for when the FBI could commence an official investigation – i.e. something that might suggest actual or potential violations of federal laws.

On March 22, 1955, J. Edgar Hoover sent a memo to 12 FBI field offices. Here is the pertinent text:

“At the suggestion of the Department, the New Orleans and Memphis offices are conducting an investigation of the Association of Citizens Councils (of Mississippi) for consideration by the Department pursuant to Executive Order 10450. The Mobile office is also conducting an investigation of the Citizens Councils of Alabama….The Citizens Councils disclaim affiliation with or similarity to the Ku Klux Klan. The stated objectives include discouraging Negroes from voting and maintaining segregation in public schools. These objectives are being carried out by economic pressure brought to bear on Negroes seeking to vote or who are in favor of integration in schools. The Councils claim no violence will be used and only legal means employed. All offices receiving copies of this letter are instructed to be alert for the formation of Citizens Councils in the territory covered by your offices. Upon the receipt of such information you should advise the Bureau immediately by letter setting forth all pertinent data concerning the organization and the officers thereof. No investigation should be conducted without prior Bureau authority.”

On May 16, 1955, Alan Belmont (Assistant Director in charge of the Bureau’s Domestic Intelligence Division) wrote a memo captioned “Citizens Councils and States’ Rights Movement – Internal Security – X”. In his memo, Belmont acknowledged that with respect to the Associations of Citizens Councils of Mississippi:

“The Internal Security Division of the Department by letter 12-10-54 suggested an investigation of this organization…Investigation has been conducted and reports submitted to the Department. The Criminal Division of the Department has made several requests for investigation of possible civil rights violations in connection with the Association of Citizens Councils. These possible violations concern alleged attempts to prevent Negroes from voting and refusal by employees of the Federal Home Administration to make loans to Negroes affiliated with the NAACP. The NAACP was quick to secure affidavits in the latter cases and furnish them to the White House.”

Belmont then summarizes the policy of the FBI:

“Current Bureau policy is that we do not investigate groups that advocate or employ legal means to achieve their objectives; however, where advisable the field is authorized to investigate organizations established for purpose of combating or advocating affirmative action against racial minorities. Such groups activities may result in civil rights violations and in cases such as these organizations it is believed desirable that determination of those involved be made and any activities of the organization be followed. This investigative background will be most useful in the event civil rights violations should occur in the future in connection with their activities. By letter dated 3-22-55, twelve southern offices were informed of the rapid spread of these groups and were instructed to be alert for the formation of such organizations in their territory. These offices were instructed that upon receipt of such information to advise the Bureau immediately by letter setting forth pertinent data concerning the organization and officers thereof. No investigation was to be conducted without prior Bureau authority.”

Belmont then observed:

“The Supreme Court has not yet handed down any date on which integration is to take place. At that time it is probable that these organizations will become more active and that extra-legal steps will be taken to prevent integration. Therefore, it is believed that we should have information concerning these groups and the individuals connected therewith prior to any incidents which may take place. In view of the above, the field has been following the activities of these organizations to determine whether others are being denied their rights under U.S. constitution and reports have been furnished Department for consideration under Executive Order 10450.”

All Special Agents in Charge of FBI field offices were reminded by J. Edgar Hoover in SAC Letter 55-66 (dated 10/25/55) regarding their responsibilities for filing reports in a timely manner about Citizens Councils groups in their territory. Item #5 stated: “Convert inquiries to full-scale investigations under 87D, Manual of Instructions, only on specific Bureau instructions.”

In October 1957, the Attorney General of the U.S. met with FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover. The AG told Hoover that in view of the racial unrest in connection with the desegregation of Little Rock AR schools, and the fact that “disturbers of the peace were citizens councils members, he believed the Bureau should develop coverage in Councils. Appropriate instructions were sent to the field on October 9, 1957, and the need for caution and discretion was stressed. The field was informed the Bureau was not interested in legitimate activities of councils, but only in gathering intelligence in advance of possible violence or information regarding violations within the Bureau’s jurisdiction. Nineteen offices were involved in the program.” [HQ 105-34237, serial #442 dated 11/19/62]

In May 1958, the FBI interviewed a citizen in Newport News VA who was a member of the Peninsula Citizens Council. The local newspaper made an inquiry to the Bureau as to whether the FBI was investigating integration in public schools and opponents thereof. As a consequence of this publicity, informant coverage within citizens councils was discontinued and in June 1958, all field offices were instructed to discontinue their programs.

HOWEVER, the Bureau discovered that in some locations Klan organizations had adopted Citizens Councils names in order to camouflage their activities and to seek greater support within their communities from people who otherwise would not join a Klan group. In those instances, a formal investigation was initiated.

In addition, because so many prominent individuals were known to be Citizens Councils members and supporters (including Governors, State legislators, Mayors, city council members, prominent businessmen, clergymen, newspaper editors, etc.) the Bureau did NOT authorize wholesale investigation of Citizens Councils nor did it authorize massive informant coverage through infiltration. Instead, the Bureau relied upon what it called “established sources”. Established sources is BureauSpeak for public records, informants, confidential sources, panel sources, and citizens “who in time-proved dealings [with the FBI] have been found discreet, reliable, and are in a position to furnish or obtain pertinent information.” In other words, people who would keep their mouth shut!

In June 1961, J. Edgar Hoover sent updated instructions to all field offices which addressed when it was appropriate to develop informants within Citizens Councils.

In November 1962, senior Bureau officials discussed via memo “the Bureau policy concerning investigations of Citizens Councils in light of the recent situation which occurred at the University of Mississippi and the trouble which may arise when attempts are made to desegregate universities in South Carolina and Alabama.”

Sorry this message is so long -- but I thought you deserved a serious reply.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Ernie Lazar

[Greg Parker]

GREG:

You obviously have no knowledge about the disciplinary procedures routinely undertaken within the Bureau – particularly when field offices were subjected to inspections and they had to account for each and every violation of standard Bureau policies. These inspections even commented upon grammar errors in Special Agent reports submitted to headquarters OR inappropriate headings used on field office memos!

Ernie, I could hardly remain oblivious to Hoover's peccadillos after 10 years of researching the assassination. I just don't see any evidence that the death penalty has created a murder-free society.

Many FBI Special Agents had their careers ruined because of their inability to follow Bureau procedures or their inattention to picayune instructions from Headquarters.

So no one to your knowledge deliberately flouted procedure? Is that it?

Apparently, you place great trust in the Swearingen book. But you never explained HOW you went about verifying the accuracy of the statements he made in his book. Perhaps you could share with us exactly what you did in this regard?

Just as you apparently place great trust in the efficacy of procedural guidelines and heavy-handed punishment for deviating from same. But life just isn't like that. People are creative in getting around unworkable policies, no matter the risk.

As for Swearington's book; there is independant cooboration found in other books on the FBI.

Can you please also explain how you verify the accuracy of FBI reports you rely upon, because it appears at this stage, you take them all at face value?

Have you ever bothered to read any of the very detailed books and articles written by our nation's foremost scholars on the FBI as an organization as well as on Hoover? I suggest, for example, that you read books by arguably our nation's most knowledgeable scholar on FBI history -- Dr. Athan Theoharis. You will INSTANTLY discover that the FBI "bureaucracy" was NOT run in some slipshod manner where omissions and commissions were dismissed or ignored.

Can you please point to where I said they were dismissed or ignored? If I did, it was an inadvertant senior's moment. If you are unable to find where I did, perhaps you could see your way clear to acknowledge same?

[Greg Parker]

Greg: I understand your confusion about this matter and I will give you some background which should clarify the matter.

Let’s start at the beginning. May 17, 1954

The precipitating event which resulted in the creation of White Citizens Councils (which, incidentally, often were organized under totally different names including as gun clubs) was the 1954 Supreme Court de-segregation decision.

By letter dated December 10, 1954, William F. Tompkins, Assistant Attorney General, Internal Security Division, sent a memo to J. Edgar Hoover concerning the first citizens councils formed in Mississippi AND the American States Rights Association. Tompkins attached an article which was published in the Washington DC Post and Times-Herald on Sunday, November 21, 1954 regarding those organizations. In his short memo to Hoover, Tompkins instructed Hoover as follows:

“It is suggested that an investigation be made regarding these organizations with a view to their being considered for designation pursuant to Executive Order 10450 relating to the Federal employee security program. Particular emphasis should be placed on any policies or activities which indicate that the organizations have ‘adopted a policy of advocating or approving the commission of acts of force and violence to deny others their rights under the Constitution of the United States’ “

That last sentence (in italics) is the operative wording for when the FBI could commence an official investigation – i.e. something that might suggest actual or potential violations of federal laws.

On March 22, 1955, J. Edgar Hoover sent a memo to 12 FBI field offices. Here is the pertinent text:

“At the suggestion of the Department, the New Orleans and Memphis offices are conducting an investigation of the Association of Citizens Councils (of Mississippi) for consideration by the Department pursuant to Executive Order 10450. The Mobile office is also conducting an investigation of the Citizens Councils of Alabama….The Citizens Councils disclaim affiliation with or similarity to the Ku Klux Klan. The stated objectives include discouraging Negroes from voting and maintaining segregation in public schools. These objectives are being carried out by economic pressure brought to bear on Negroes seeking to vote or who are in favor of integration in schools. The Councils claim no violence will be used and only legal means employed. All offices receiving copies of this letter are instructed to be alert for the formation of Citizens Councils in the territory covered by your offices. Upon the receipt of such information you should advise the Bureau immediately by letter setting forth all pertinent data concerning the organization and the officers thereof. No investigation should be conducted without prior Bureau authority.”

On May 16, 1955, Alan Belmont (Assistant Director in charge of the Bureau’s Domestic Intelligence Division) wrote a memo captioned “Citizens Councils and States’ Rights Movement – Internal Security – X”. In his memo, Belmont acknowledged that with respect to the Associations of Citizens Councils of Mississippi:

“The Internal Security Division of the Department by letter 12-10-54 suggested an investigation of this organization…Investigation has been conducted and reports submitted to the Department. The Criminal Division of the Department has made several requests for investigation of possible civil rights violations in connection with the Association of Citizens Councils. These possible violations concern alleged attempts to prevent Negroes from voting and refusal by employees of the Federal Home Administration to make loans to Negroes affiliated with the NAACP. The NAACP was quick to secure affidavits in the latter cases and furnish them to the White House.”

Belmont then summarizes the policy of the FBI:

“Current Bureau policy is that we do not investigate groups that advocate or employ legal means to achieve their objectives; however, where advisable the field is authorized to investigate organizations established for purpose of combating or advocating affirmative action against racial minorities. Such groups activities may result in civil rights violations and in cases such as these organizations it is believed desirable that determination of those involved be made and any activities of the organization be followed. This investigative background will be most useful in the event civil rights violations should occur in the future in connection with their activities. By letter dated 3-22-55, twelve southern offices were informed of the rapid spread of these groups and were instructed to be alert for the formation of such organizations in their territory. These offices were instructed that upon receipt of such information to advise the Bureau immediately by letter setting forth pertinent data concerning the organization and officers thereof. No investigation was to be conducted without prior Bureau authority.”

Belmont then observed:

“The Supreme Court has not yet handed down any date on which integration is to take place. At that time it is probable that these organizations will become more active and that extra-legal steps will be taken to prevent integration. Therefore, it is believed that we should have information concerning these groups and the individuals connected therewith prior to any incidents which may take place. In view of the above, the field has been following the activities of these organizations to determine whether others are being denied their rights under U.S. constitution and reports have been furnished Department for consideration under Executive Order 10450.”

All Special Agents in Charge of FBI field offices were reminded by J. Edgar Hoover in SAC Letter 55-66 (dated 10/25/55) regarding their responsibilities for filing reports in a timely manner about Citizens Councils groups in their territory. Item #5 stated: “Convert inquiries to full-scale investigations under 87D, Manual of Instructions, only on specific Bureau instructions.”

In October 1957, the Attorney General of the U.S. met with FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover. The AG told Hoover that in view of the racial unrest in connection with the desegregation of Little Rock AR schools, and the fact that “disturbers of the peace were citizens councils members, he believed the Bureau should develop coverage in Councils. Appropriate instructions were sent to the field on October 9, 1957, and the need for caution and discretion was stressed. The field was informed the Bureau was not interested in legitimate activities of councils, but only in gathering intelligence in advance of possible violence or information regarding violations within the Bureau’s jurisdiction. Nineteen offices were involved in the program.” [HQ 105-34237, serial #442 dated 11/19/62]

In May 1958, the FBI interviewed a citizen in Newport News VA who was a member of the Peninsula Citizens Council. The local newspaper made an inquiry to the Bureau as to whether the FBI was investigating integration in public schools and opponents thereof. As a consequence of this publicity, informant coverage within citizens councils was discontinued and in June 1958, all field offices were instructed to discontinue their programs.

HOWEVER, the Bureau discovered that in some locations Klan organizations had adopted Citizens Councils names in order to camouflage their activities and to seek greater support within their communities from people who otherwise would not join a Klan group. In those instances, a formal investigation was initiated.

In addition, because so many prominent individuals were known to be Citizens Councils members and supporters (including Governors, State legislators, Mayors, city council members, prominent businessmen, clergymen, newspaper editors, etc.) the Bureau did NOT authorize wholesale investigation of Citizens Councils nor did it authorize massive informant coverage through infiltration. Instead, the Bureau relied upon what it called “established sources”. Established sources is BureauSpeak for public records, informants, confidential sources, panel sources, and citizens “who in time-proved dealings [with the FBI] have been found discreet, reliable, and are in a position to furnish or obtain pertinent information.” In other words, people who would keep their mouth shut!

In June 1961, J. Edgar Hoover sent updated instructions to all field offices which addressed when it was appropriate to develop informants within Citizens Councils.

In November 1962, senior Bureau officials discussed via memo “the Bureau policy concerning investigations of Citizens Councils in light of the recent situation which occurred at the University of Mississippi and the trouble which may arise when attempts are made to desegregate universities in South Carolina and Alabama.”

Sorry this message is so long -- but I thought you deserved a serious reply.

Thanks for the background, Ernie. I assure you I am not confused. And there is really no need to apologise for taking around 20 paragraphs in which to try and blur the fact that the quote I provided from an FBI report in Goldwater's file was correct. Bureau regs prohibited investigation of Citizen's Councils, even in the case under discussion in the Goldwater file - threats to bomb the homes of "n Lovers", some signed by a person claiming to be a WCC member.

From a post I made to another forum around 9 years summarising the first 100 pages in the file:

Sen Philip Hart - letter postmarked July 9, 1963 from Danville Illinois and written on Veterens Administration stationary.

"Senator Hart, why don't you crack pots wake up. There is no law in the land that we have to serve Negroes? We the white people in St Joe and Benton Harbor Mich. [want] no part of civil rights? We dagos know all your addresses? So wake up. Underworld gang."

Sen Winston Prouty received a similar letter postmarked July 16 from Danville. This one contained a threat to use bombs, and was signed "ed. Omally"

A second letter to Prouty was dated July 19.

"We know all your home addresses. No more bull xxxx from you crackpots in Washington. We want no part of civil rights and no part of the Negroes! We mean business. We are telling you crack pots, put them Negroes in there place. We are ready to take up arms and march on to Washington! What will you Negro lovers do when you see us coming. This march will bring us white people Victory. [name redacted] American Legion Post 443 Chicago Ill."

Next letter was dated Feb 7, 1964, and was to a judge whose name has been redacted. The same stationery was used and again had been sent from Danville, but this was signed "[name redacted] White Citizens Council Montgomery, Ala." The body of the letter read: "[name redacted] You are a n lover? They are going to bomb your home and office. The White People don't care about the law any more. So be careful."

An FBI memo headed Administrative Data, (which is undated) stated: "The Mobile Division advised...there was no organization known as the 'White Citizens Council' in Mongomery, Alabama, at the present time. There has been in existence... an organization publicly known as 'Montgomery Citizens Council' aka 'Montomery County Citizens Council', however the membership of this organization is not known to this office, DUE TO BUREAU REGULATIONS PROHIBITING ACTIVE INVESTIGATION OF CITIZENS COUNCILS [emphasis mine]."

A second letter was received in Alabama, but all information regarding name of addressee, and name used to sign it have been redacted. This was dated Feb 10, 1964, and again, VA stationery had been used.

Meanwhile, the Chicago office investigation was continuing apace. By now, they had managed to narrow the suspects down to the mere 1700 patients of the VA hospital. Also, handwriting analysis had shown the letters to Hart and to un-named person/s in Alabama were written by the same hand, and that a different person had written the ones to Prouty.

Next letter was postmarked Jun 30, 1964 at Danville, and was to the parents of a student. All identifying information has been redacted. The body of the letter reads: "All you n lovers homes will be bombed any night? We from the North are going to help the Southerns. We from the North are going after the Jews and n lovers." The last para of the document reads: "[redacted] presently has a mailing address [redacted] Jackson Mississippi. [redacted] Oxford Ohio Training Center

for Mississippi Summer Project approximately two weeks ago, and has been in Jackson, Mississippi since then.

A female from Worthington, Ill also received a letter postmarked Jun 30 from Danville. However, her husband did not allow her to report it immediately. She had previously attended the Freedom Training Sessions at the Western College for Women, Oxford, Ohio.

A third letter to a person involved in the Mississpippi Summer Project was posted same time and place as previous two. This time destination was Glencoe, Ill. It simply stated: "We from the North are members of the White Citizens Council. All you n lovers homes will be bombed any night."

[Ernie Lazar]

GREG: In answer to your questions/comments:

1. Did any FBI Special Agents ever violate Bureau rules?

Of course and, in fact, my on-line report concerning Dan Smoot documents in great detail what led to Smoot’s censure and being placed on probation and being transferred to a small insignificant field office. [During his relatively brief FBI career, Smoot was censured 3 times.]

But the fact remains that Bureau Agents were accountable to their superiors for even the smallest infractions of Bureau policies---including, as previously mentioned, grammatical mistakes in their reports or failure to follow Bureau policies. Even the scholars who are among the Bureau’s most severe critics have reported in great detail on this culture within the FBI.

So, the real question is: what happened to Bureau employees who “deliberately flouted procedure”? Were they routinely praised and promoted? Is that YOUR contention?

2. Do I place “trust” in the efficacy of FBI procedural guidelines?

It depends upon what specific matters we are discussing. Yes, in the real world, “people are creative in getting around unworkable policies” but inside the FBI it was VERY dangerous to do so – IF one planned upon staying in the Bureau and building a career.

Hoover and Tolson were hyper-sensitive to anything which would cause embarrassment to the Bureau or which could be used by politicians to question the integrity of the Bureau.

Nothing which I have written should be interpreted to mean that Hoover did not understand how to play the bureaucratic game. For example, when he was instructed to terminate certain programs, he often re-created them under different names so that he could truthfully answer superiors if they asked if “program x” had ended.

3. Swearingen book and “verifying accuracy” of material

The famous philosopher, Karl Popper, pointed out that one can always “prove” something if one looks only for “confirmations” because in the universe of available data, there are ALWAYS “confirmations”.

You ask me how I verify the accuracy of FBI reports I rely upon because I appear to take them at “face value”. First, your predicate is mistaken. I do not take them at face value.

But, perhaps, here is the difference between you and I?

I have acquired over 500,000 pages of FBI files and documents on hundreds of persons, organizations, and publications.

I have copies of many internal memos circulated among senior Bureau officials which discuss Bureau policies --- including many documents and files which reveal adverse information about Bureau practices or the most sensitive Bureau programs -- such as "JUNE" mail and the various indexes used by the Bureau to capture data about "subversives" or security risks who were to be apprehended during times of national crisis.

Furthermore, I have made it a point to read numerous scholarly books, articles, doctoral dissertations, conference papers, legislative hearings/reports, and court cases concerning the Bureau’s history and its internal practices.

So contrary to your false assumption, I do not rely upon the “face value” of everything contained in Bureau documents. But the fact remains that I rely upon PRIMARY SOURCE evidence – not secondary sources or sources which are wedded to a particular point of view.

Could I be mistaken about something of material importance? Of course! But whoever wants to dispute something I write needs to rely upon PRIMARY SOURCE evidence and demonstrate that he/she has familiarity with the subject matter that goes way beyond reading one or two books or memoirs -- particularly if they are not even documented with verifiable footnotes or bibliographic citations.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

GREG: In reply to this comment by you:

"And there is really no need to apologise for taking around 20 paragraphs in which to try and blur the fact that the quote I provided from an FBI report in Goldwater's file was correct. Bureau regs prohibited investigation of Citizen's Councils."

You could not be more mistaken Greg. But your confusion stems from what the Bureau considered an official "investigation" as opposed to a preliminary inquiry or other term of art.

As my previous message clearly documented, there WERE "investigations" of numerous White Citizens Councils groups as even the Assistant Director in charge of the Domestic Intelligence Division acknowledged in his memo.

In addition, I previously mentioned the March 1957 10-page memo in the Citizens Councils movement file (HQ 105-34237) which was devoted entirely to listing the FBI headquarters file numbers, alphabetically by state, of all files then opened by the Bureau on the Citizens Councils and other pro-segregation groups. (There are about 400 groups listed--along with their FBI HQ file numbers.]

I happen to have copies of many of those files (both HQ and field office), for example: Citizens Councils of West Alabama, Seaboard White Citizens Council, Citizens Council of Greater New Orleans, Greater Los Angeles Citizens Council, Citizens Councils of Kentucky, Citizens Council of Georgia, Association of Citizens Councils of Mississippi, and on and on.

In addition, I have many of the investigative files on major figures within the Citizens Councils movement.

So, Greg, what do you prefer that I believe? ---> The primary source documents and FBI files (both HQ and field office) in my possession or your speculations?

Postscript:

FYI: The Bureau never opened an official "investigation" on the John Birch Society.

Nevertheless, the FBI HQ file on the JBS (62-104401) is 12,000 pages! and every FBI field office also opened a main file on the JBS.

Those field files (such as Boston and Los Angeles) often also were several thousand pages!

So, Greg, is it YOUR contention that the Bureau amassed 12,000 pages on the JBS in its HQ file -- but it did not amount to an actual "investigation"?

Please enlighten us Greg.

Tell us SPECIFICALLY what constitutes an "FBI investigation" in your opinion?

What type of data exists exclusively in a FBI "investigative" file which is NOT present in other types of files?

You declare above that "Bureau regs prohibited investigation of Citizens Councils".

So please tell us from your vast experience with reviewing ACTUAL FBI FILES -- what type of data is MISSING from (for example) the Seaboard White Citizens Council file -- which illustrates why it is NOT (in your judgment) an "investigative" file.

I'm sure all of us will be fascinated to discover your answer to this question!

Edited June 10, 2010 by Ernie Lazar

[John Dolva]

One thinf to conaider is that a number of ex fbi, including Hoover assistants (Such as Zach Van Landringham of the MSC) were in a way ''seeded'' into the south. Also on a number of issues the FBI tended to be accepting of a situation where they didn't get much real help from southern agencies in instances, that didn't seem to faze them all that much. Their cointelpro progs very heavily focused on blacks, the socialist workers party, and others and little on roght wing extremists.