THE TUNNELS UNDER DALLAS

[Bernice Moore]

Thanks Jim for the reply, i agree, the only opinion i have given through all this is that i think it was a possible......i have found the article that Penn Jones did re the sewer drain information, for your perusal...also just for interest a photo and a wee bit of information by Jerry Dealey, re a collapse on the knoll of a part of the drain, i imagine.in the 70's i believe...i will paste his information. which contains the link also to the anti sewer research theory by Michael Parks, which i feel is only fair....''

http://www.jfklancer...e=&topic_page=3

Richard,

Go back and watch TMWKK carefully. They show him in the drain, and then walking off ON THE SIDEWALK. Then they cut to a walkable storm drain over BY THE TRINITY RIVER as the place they would come out. (I recall it was Walt Brown, but I could be mistaken.)

I have been in that storm drain, and at the bottom there is about a 14-16" pipe (I added 2 inches). A person would have to snake through that across Elm, presumably on their belly. Remember also that it rained that morning.

Some then venture that on the south side of Main the storm drains converge, and that THERE is a pipe large enough to crawl through (and I have NOT been down there).

At least that is how it is today. Some will contend that they have rebuilt Dealey Plaza. I do know of one 'collapse' on the Grassy Knoll by the street, in the mid-70's, and this is the steroscopic photo they made of it before the repair. It was just a few feet west (toward the Underpass) of the drain, and they slightly altered the street when they repaired it.(I will attempt to attach it.)

In fact, right here: http://www.jfklancer.com/draintn.html on JFK Lancer is the photos taken by Mike Parks in 1996. You can see down into the storm drain, and its position to the "X", etc........''.

recall earlier in this thread the dimensions given of the drain pipes.which differ with Mike's...also...and a Cabluck comp, but i have not the name of the creator...as well as John Judges informative link....thanks again ........http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/sewerShot.html........Judge...best b..

Jones - Skeptic Lot Article.pdf

Edited April 6, 2013 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

the link below to Greg Burnham's site, shows maps for the Possible escape routes ...from the sewer drain areas...thank you kind sir for this new research..scroll down....best b

http://jfktruth.org/drain/index.htm

''Even if this was not the spot from which the fatal shot was fired,

it could have been, and should have been covered and investigated.

Why have most people never even heard of this obvious possibility?''

Edited April 7, 2013 by Bernice Moore

[Greg Burnham]

the link below to Greg Burnham's site, shows maps for the Possible escape routes ...from the sewer drain areas...thank you kind sir for this new research..scroll down....best b

http://jfktruth.org/drain/index.htm

''Even if this was not the spot from which the fatal shot was fired,

it could have been, and should have been covered and investigated.

Why have most people never even heard of this obvious possibility?''

Bernice,

That is not my work or my website--well it seems like some of the work might be "borrowed", but without my knowledge. No problem. Although I am not married

to the idea of the storm drain, it certainly isn't worthy of dismissal without further investigation. I believe that it is definitely a possibility. The link below is from a preliminary

study I did nearly 15 years ago. Since then I have been down in the system and Scott Myers and I explored the mouth of the Trinity River where the system leads. In my

opinion, it is the perfect escape plan.

http://rense.com/politics4/drain.htm

Edited April 7, 2013 by Greg Burnham

[Greg Burnham]

Greg Burnham's storm drain sewer theory.b...

http://jfktruth.org/drain/index.htm.....

Greg could you possibly repost your link to Jim Garrison radio, about the bullet and storm drain bullet information...thank you b

The pertinent part of the speech can be found at this link around the the 17:00 mark or so. I recommend hearing the entire speech

to put it into context.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Greg Burnham

[Bernice Moore]

thank you kind Sir, continue to get well, and take good care.....best b

fyi...an Al Carrier post on this research but involving the possible shot from the south overpass....area....to Tosh..b

Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation]at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory.". ...) note:Found in body of below post

Reference All Carrier's post of Nov. 25, 2004:

"....I have been seriously researching the JFK Assassination for some fourteen years. What I bring into it is a background in weaponry, ballistics, crime scene investigative techniques and an understanding for sniper deployment and procedures. I have never accepted the official version of a lone sniper achieving the feat from a location 60’ above in the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Then add to this official account, the capabilities of the weapon and shooter that was accepted by the Warren Commission and later the HSCA, it was ridiculous.

Wound ballistics became an immediate issue when I began researching the Kennedy assassination in order to determine a shot origin. While there is overwhelming evidence in my opinion of a shooter on the north knoll at the time of the assassination, I had issues with this angle of trajectory creating the head wound suffered by President Kennedy. The discovery of Badgeman by Jack White and Gary Mack in the Mooreman Photograph, witnesses who reported hearing shot(s) on the north knoll, Gordon Arnold’s reporting of a shooter there, as well as other sightings of shooters and smoke from that origin, leaves no doubt in my mind that shot(s) were fired from this location. That does not necessarily mean that the head wound was inflicted by this shot origin and in my opinion from my background in weaponry and wound ballistics, I believe that it was not.

There are issues to consider when determining a point of entrance. The greater fracturing of the skull will occur forward of the point of impact as the energy from the penetrating projectile will radiate forward along the trajectory path of the initial penetration point. As seen in the Zapruder film and after the lightening of the top of the head autopsy photos, a large defect was also found high on the head, right of midline and a flap of scalp and partial skull bone was attached to the flap. This is created when the penetration trajectory is shallow below the skull, creating the energy dispersion to push out against the fractured bone.

By noting where the skull fracture and flap begins, it is logical that the point of entry is close to that location. By following the trajectory back to the massive wound in the right portion of the occipital parietal, which was clearly seen at Parkland Hospital by medical personnel, it shows a true line of trajectory and shot origin.

The challenge to this line of trajectory in support of shot origin of the north knoll comes from many researchers and is supported by forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht. Dr. Wecht believes that a shot fired from the north knoll, striking the right temporal/parietal region of the president’s skull would DEFLECT and turn outward (left), maintaining a wound cavity to the right portion of the skull.

The problem with this is that penetration from a rifle caliber projectile that is traveling in excess of 1800fps and most likely above 2400fps, would not deviate outward, but actually slightly inward through skull penetration. The ratio of diameter v. length of the projectile penetrating through a multi-layed resistant surface, such as skull plating, would actually create a rollover effect through surface penetration. This would cause the projectile to turn slightly inward instead of deflecting upon penetration. This has been proven in wound ballistic testing through the work of Dr. Martin Fackler over the past twenty years and accepted by the NIJ in studies of wound ballistics in order to determine effectiveness in ballistic resistant materials in ballistic vests.

The problem this shot trajectory creates is that it shows a shot origin that is in conflict with the witnesses who made a determination on shot origin by what they heard. This shot trajectory would place a shot origin in the region of the south end of the overpass over some sixty feet to the south knoll parking lot. No witnesses reported hearing a shot from this location, other than one who has came forward as being part of an abort team. This witness I will address later.

With 200 plus witnesses in DP at the time of the assassination and none focusing on shots from this location, most researchers write off the likelihood of a south plaza shooter. They also have concerns with this exposed location. This can easily be explained by a common practice by military sniper teams in both urban and rural environments.

Often, the most ideal location for shot origin, especially on a moving target, is a location that exposes the shooter the greatest. Making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military found a practice to overcome this obstacle and it has been termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present. The term “Canyon Shoot” was unofficially adopted when Sgt. Alvin York utilized various shot origins and the echo effects of the terrain to fool the enemy into believing they were surrounded, when in fact it was only he who was shooting.

In the case of Dealey Plaza, a shooter firing from the Texas School Book Depository would initially fire and the other shooters in the plaza would cue off the Depository shooter by startle reaction and fire a round immediately on top of the shot fired by the Depository shooter. Witnesses would detect the first sound and roughly identify a shot origin and this would cover the fire of the others shooters, deeper in the plaza. The echo effect of the Plaza would also aid in making the witnesses believe that it was shot reverberation that they were hearing deeper in the plaza. With another shooter firing from the North Knoll, this would direct witnesses along Elm and at the intersection of Elm and Houston to focus their attention on the area between the Depository and the Knoll. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.

The closest known witnesses to the South End Overpass/South Knoll position were James Tague who was positioned on Commerce under the overpass, two Dallas Police Officers and nine railroad employees atop the underpass over Elm, and Tosh Plumlee and an associate who were on the bank of the South Knoll. Tague did not hear a shot originate from overhead or to his left and rear, but his perception could easily have been hampered by the extreme echo effects of all shots reverberating under the underpass. The persons atop the underpass did not detect the shot fired to their left, but their attention was on the approaching motorcade and their attention was drawn to the shots fired from the north knoll, which was in the direct of the approaching motorcade and of nearly equal distance in comparison to the south origin. Plumlee and his associate, who he has reported as being sent to Dallas as part of an assassinations abort team, clearly heard a shot fired from behind them, that would put it in line with the shot origin I have been describing. Plumlee was also ex-military and was their to stop an assassination attempt, so he would be prepared for the sounds he was about to hear. He apparently also recognized the ideal location of the south knoll region as that is where he chose to station himself.

The most recent challenge to the South End of the Overpass/South Knoll shot origin comes from Sixth Floor Museum Curator Gary Mack. Mack has come forward with new reporter Bob Jett, who has claimed to have been in the South Knoll Parking Lot eating his lunch at the time of the assassination. Jett has stated that he saw no assassin and heard no shots fired from that origin. Jett was working at the time of the assassination. My question as to his credibility and presence is why did he not immediately report on air, witnessing the assassination? Why was he not called upon by the Warren Commission to testify as to what he saw and did not see? The Warren Commission directed questions at most witnesses as to whether they heard or saw anything suspicious in this region. Wouldn’t Jett have been the nail in the coffin they needed to disprove a shooter there?

Another established researcher who supports my belief of shot origin from the south end of overpass/south knoll region, is nationally recognized Bloodstain Pattern Analysis Expert and Instructor, Sherry Gutierrez. Sherry has presented at JFK Lancer November in Dallas Seminars in 2001 and 2003. In 2003, she partly focused on this shot origin. She has also produced threads on the Lancer Forum regarding this.

Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory. This also explains the compromised velocity that would result in a shallower wound path. I have been challenged on this through photos including Altgens 6 and 7 and have provided arguments on both. Because this is already a rather complex subject, I will not go into detail on the throat wound.

Al Carrier ...". (End of Post

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15499&st=0&p=183885&hl=+south%20+knoll%20+shooter%20+carrierentry183885

Edited April 7, 2013 by Bernice Moore

[John Dolva]

That's a good lot of data to keep in this thread.

I am rather interested (also) in some theorised tunnels. There are certain tunnels that it is reasonable to expect to find.

In the old days of commerce (and this is the old heart of Dallas) this was an important commercial centre and these sort of places often had networks of communication tunnels through which people and goods can pass without the hindrances of street life.

There were a lot of buidings that were demolished to make way for Dealey Plaza.

I can envisage a number of interconnected sub terranian passages that had important functions that today are likely blocked in some ways. Bricked up basements. Fill, unattended collapses et.c. .

Obviously plans exist somewhere. Some unitrusive sonar imaging reveals a lot. (if used)

[Bernice Moore]

Hi John; thanks for the reply, yes much information has been gathered now down through the years, it did take patience as it came in dribs, i will say that..there were many homes years back in Dealey, so it was is possible. .If and i believe as you there must be plans somewhere, but as even a copy of map of Dallas showing the tunnels a few years back was denied, I doubt any plans would be easy to access..today..all we can do is wait and see what come out down the road...every now and then i do hear or dig up a new bit...but very seldom..a sonar sounds like a grand idea... ..take care best b

Edited April 9, 2013 by Bernice Moore

[Micah Mileto]

What about the sewer openings on the left front of Kennedy?

https://cfrankdavis.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/dealey-plaza2.png?w=640

And there are at least two right outside the south knoll. Would be a perfect location for left temple enthusiasts.

 

 

[Micah Mileto]

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7784284,-96.8088156,3a,75y,137.77h,70.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suHS8M--KoKvGr0879ufN3Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Edit: BTW, does there exist an actual city map of the sewer system in Dallas like the kind David Ferrie had?

Edited December 22, 2018 by Micah Mileto

[Ron Bulman]

That's a good question Micah.  Thanks to Michael for bumping this one.  Interesting reading.  I first read of a sewer shot via Penn Jones writings if I remember right, many years after he wrote about it.  I've always been skeptical.  A pretty tight time frame for sighting a shot from such a small window of opportunity.  Maybe not a problem for a trained practiced sniper but,  bluntly, overkill?  Intriguing yes, any possible new info should be pursued, but, I've wondered if it was planted disinformation.  As a distraction?

Though a copy of the sewer map in Ferrie's apartment is interesting I don't remember reading anything documented about it.  Was it found and documented by the New Orleans PD?