Was Lansdale in Dealey Plaza?

[Guest Robert Morrow]

So John Kennedy fired Edward Lansdale when he effective shut down Operation Mongoose (until they murdered him). He fired/humiliated CIA legend Allen Dulles. He was about to drop a serial killing psychopath Lyndon Johnson from the 1964 Democratic ticket (source: Evelyn Lincoln). And he was going to let (force) J. Edgar Hoover, who hated the Kennedys, to mandatory retire when Hoover turned age 70 on 1/1/65, about 13 months away. And JFK wanted to shred the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds.

Meanwhile, Arthur Krock is OPENLY talking about a CIA overthrow of the US government IN PRINT, IN THE NATION'S THEN PAPER OF RECORD, THE NEW YORK TIMES, in October, 1963.

Yeah, they murdered JFK. They, meaning ALL OF THE ABOVE. (Is is really that hard to figure out?)

Edited August 6, 2010 by Robert Morrow

[Ron Ecker]

Lansdale didn't retire, Kennedy fired his ass and Landsdale was pissed - really pissed.

Lansdale retired from the Air Force on November 1, 1963.

People do retire from the Air Force, whether they ever really retire from the CIA or not.

[Guest Robert Morrow]

Lansdale didn't retire, Kennedy fired his ass and Landsdale was pissed - really pissed.

Lansdale retired from the Air Force on November 1, 1963.

People do retire from the Air Force, whether they ever really retire from the CIA or not.

Lansdale was NOT retired when he was in Vietnam a few years later with Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge, now was he? After Lansdale helped to whack JFK, he got his next gig within a few years.

[Ron Ecker]

Lansdale was NOT retired when he was in Vietnam a few years later with Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge, now was he?

No, he wasn't retired from something, or else he went back into service, now didn't he?

After Lansdale helped to whack JFK, he got his next gig within a few years.

I have no doubt that Lansdale helped whack JFK. That doesn't change the fact that he retired from the Air Force on November 1, 1963, unless you can prove I am wrong, in which case I will apologize to the forum for making a false statement.

[Peter McGuire]

All the stuff about him being in Fort Worth etc. is true as certified by records unearthed by John Newman. John was thinking of doing a full scale in-depth biography of Lansdale at the time.

Alright. I will accept that from you guys. As far as Landsdale being "fired" by JFK, although Allen Dulles definately was fired by Kennedy - - my assertion that Landsdale was actually "fired" by Kennedy is just my opinion - I have to admit.

I lost track of my book, but I believe that I felt that not giving a man such as Lansdale a post he expected to get has the same effect as getting fired - - that is - - pissing one off. When you have lived your life as Lansdale had, getting pissed at someone doesn't mean that your reaction is going to be something normal ( or lame ) as simply telling them off, or writing a letter, for example!

Someone went Postal Back East this week. Getting fired really has an effect on people.

Me?

I have always felt it must be the time to move on...great excuse to have a beer and make the next plan.

Joe Cocker ( I think ) Sings "Everybody Hurts" on "House"

Edited August 6, 2010 by Peter McGuire

[Sterling Seagrave]

About Lansdale -- but not about Dealey Paza -- I wanted to draw your attention to a new book largely about Lansdale that Peggy and I have recently published at Amazon.com using BookSurge/CreateSpace.

Title: RED SKY IN THE MORNING. This is set in Manila and Shanghai 1945-1952, when Lansdale first took up a post at G-2 in Manila. It is based on a huge pile of documents recently declassified that reveal the behavior of Lansdale, his legman Bohannen, and his top-gun Valeriano.

Essentially, Lansdale was eager to climb the ladder, and had already made himself known in Washington by taking all the credit for breaking General Yamaxxxxa's chauffeur who showed them 12 huge caches of buried war loot that Truman decided must be recovered secretly. This made Lansdale a pet of the Dulles Brothers inner circle of the Georgetown Set. But it was a hard act to follow. So Lansdale decided to transform the rural reform movement called the Huks into a Communist Rebellion trying to violently overthrow the "democratically elected" government in Manila, with money and weapons provided secretly by the Kremlin.

For this Lansdale needed some patsies, which he discovered in the form of two young American ex-GIs who were in Manila cleaning up surplus US military ships for sale to Chinese businessmen in Shanghai. Their third partner in this enterprise, which was entirely legal, was a White Russian emigre named Vladimir Chirskov, as young and wet behind the ears as the two ex-GIs. All Chirskov wanted was to get his wife and son out of Shanghai before Mao took over China, and he thought the Philippines would be the ideal solution.

Lansdale and Bohannen chose to demonize this trio of guys in their twenties as "Soviet secret agents". They turned the Philippine police, Constabulary, and G-2 loose on the trio and built a huge dossier of ambiguities that eventually led to their arrest and imprisonment in Bilibad Prison, from which they escaped. Lansdale, meanwhile, set Valariano's "death squads" loose on rural farmers, making a free-fire zone of the whole agricultural plain of Luzon where they were free to identify any villager as a "Communist Huk guerrilla". Eventually the innocent Chirskov was captured, tortured and thrown out of a helicopter over the South China Sea. In a recent War College study of Lansdale, his fraudulent massacre of the Huks was given the CIA label, "slow extermination".

This was Lansdale's first use of death squads and paid assassins, so it may have some value to theh discussion of Dealey Plaza.

Sterling Seagrave

[Peter McGuire]

Nice hearing from you again , Sterling.

I do remember when you were posting here a few years ago about Landsdale during that time period. I think that your book will provide great background to this man. Not sure how to use Amazon.com using BookSurge/CreateSpace, but I will figure it out.

I spent a lot of time in the Philippines during the years 1993 - 2005. It is still dicey in parts of rural Luzon and areas near Cebu and Bohal. I had a job offered to me in Cebu in 2004 doing voice recording but decided that moving around the country as a tourist and getting into a pattern working there were two different things. The job didn't pay much anyway, although I still have my regrets for not taking it.

Have a great day,

Peter

Edited August 7, 2010 by Peter McGuire

[Guest Robert Morrow]

Sterling Seagrave, I think Lansdale organized the JFK assassination for the CIA, perhaps for Allen Dulles, Nelson Rockefeller, Lyndon Johnson ... add in George Herbert Walker Bush for good measure. So anything you can contribute on him is extremely important:

From Defrauding America, Rodney Stich, 3rd edition 1998 p. 638-639]:

“The Role of deep-cover CIA officer, Trenton Parker, has been described in earlier pages, and his function in the CIA's counter-intelligence unit, Pegasus. Parker had stated to me earlier that a CIA faction was responsible for the murder of JFK … During an August 21, 1993, conversation, in response to my questions, Parker said that his Pegasus group had tape recordings of plans to assassinate Kennedy. I asked him, "What group were these tapes identifying?" Parker replied: "Rockefeller, Allen Dulles, JOHNSON of Texas, GEORGE BUSH, and J. Edgar Hoover." I asked, "What was the nature of the conversation on these tapes?"

I don't have the tapes now, because all the tape recordings were turned over to [Congressman] Larry McDonald. But I listened to the tape recordings and there were conversations between Rockefeller, [J. Edgar] Hoover, where [Nelson] Rockefeller asks, "Are we going to have any problems?" And he said, "No, we aren't going to have any problems. I checked with Dulles. If they do their job we'll do our job." There are a whole bunch of tapes, because Hoover didn't realize that his phone has been tapped. Defrauding America, Rodney Stich, p. 638-639]:

[Ron Ecker]

I recall Prouty writing somewhere that Lansdale's idea of fun in Vietnam was to take "suspects" up in a helicopter and drop them out one by one, until one of them "talked."

My impression is that Lansdale was just an all-around nice guy.

[William Kelly]

I recall Prouty writing somewhere that Lansdale's idea of fun in Vietnam was to take "suspects" up in a helicopter and drop them out one by one, until one of them "talked."

My impression is that Lansdale was just an all-around nice guy.

If you read Brad Ayers book on the assassination and JMWAVE he describes how he was taken up in a helicopter to witness the murder of a senior JMWAVE officer, a German, who was an assistant to Gordon Cambell, and how he was pushed or jumped from a helicopter over a Florida military base, though I suspect that it was all just a ruse to show Brad what they can do and to see what his reaction would be.

BK

[J. Raymond Carroll]

If you read Brad Ayers book on the assassination and JMWAVE he describes how he was taken up in a helicopter to witness the murder of a senior JMWAVE officer,

BK

If Brad Ayers (or anyone else) claims to have witnessed a murder, and if he failed to report that murder in a timely manner to the proper authorities, then where I come from he would be considered an accessory to murder.

But maybe you and I come from different kinds of places.

[by that I mean that, where I come from, anyone who tried to cite a guy like Brad Ayers as a reliable witness would be laughed out of town]

Edited August 8, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[William Kelly]

If you read Brad Ayers book on the assassination and JMWAVE he describes how he was taken up in a helicopter to witness the murder of a senior JMWAVE officer,

BK

If Brad Ayers (or anyone else) claims to have witnessed a murder, and if he failed to report that murder in a timely manner to the proper authorities, then where I come from he would be considered an accessory to murder.

But maybe you and I come from different kinds of places.

In his book Zenith Secret, one of the things that is published by VoxPop, which was not included in his previous book on the same subject published by Bob-Merrell, is Brad Ayers' confirming the identity of Gordon Campbell, one of the CIA officers at JMWAVE. Campbell, who was primarily an administrator, had an assistant, an "outside man" named Karl, who went out in the field and handled some of Campbell's operations and served as a cut-out between Campbell and the Cubans. Karl was either German or East European, a weapons and logistics expert who it is suspected, had previously worked with Harvey and others in Berlin.

After training the anti-Castro Cubans for the CIA, Campbell wrapped up the JMWAVE operations in 1964, when Ayers says he went on a helicoper mission with Karl, who jumped or was pushed from the helicopter, an incident ruled an accident, but one that Ayers witnesses and considered quite suspicious. I don't think he even died, as it was staged for Ayers' benefit, so he and everyone else would believe that was the end of "Karl," who also left JMWAVE and probably went on to work under a new identity in another theater of operations. Ayers got the message however, and that's why he doesn't have internet access, got a lawyer to try to stop the publication of Zenith Secret and now lives in a remote mountain cabin with his dogs.

http://educationforu...topic=9361&st=0

Since Karl's "execuiton" was probably staged, I don't think it counts as a homicide, though Ayers could probably be indicted for somethings he did while working at JMWAVE, if anybody cared to prosecute him, and Porter Goss.

And we don't even have to talk about the suspicious deaths, when there are already plenty of unsolved and uninvestigated homicides on the table.

http://jfkcountercou...-homicides.html

Bill Kelly

http://jfkcountercoup.wordpress.com/

Edited August 8, 2010 by William Kelly

[Greg Burnham]

If you read Brad Ayers book on the assassination and JMWAVE he describes how he was taken up in a helicopter to witness the murder of a senior JMWAVE officer,

BK

If Brad Ayers (or anyone else) claims to have witnessed a murder, and if he failed to report that murder in a timely manner to the proper authorities, then where I come from he would be considered an accessory to murder.

But maybe you and I come from different kinds of places.

[by that I mean that, where I come from, anyone who tried to cite a guy like Brad Ayers as a reliable witness would be laughed out of town]

In my opinion, (not a legal opinion), in most states within the United States, if you fail to report a crime that you witnessed, it could potentially be "Misprison of a Felony" and it is a crime if you actively conceal the fact, as opposed to only "failing to report" the crime.

By contrast, "an accessory to a crime" knowingly, actively, and voluntarily participated in the commission of the crime before, during, or after the fact by providing ANY type of support. If a person provides any type of aid, support, shelter, financing, etc. to the perpetrator after the crime is committed they may be an accessory after the fact.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[William Kelly]

If you read Brad Ayers book on the assassination and JMWAVE he describes how he was taken up in a helicopter to witness the murder of a senior JMWAVE officer,

BK

If Brad Ayers (or anyone else) claims to have witnessed a murder, and if he failed to report that murder in a timely manner to the proper authorities, then where I come from he would be considered an accessory to murder.

But maybe you and I come from different kinds of places.

[by that I mean that, where I come from, anyone who tried to cite a guy like Brad Ayers as a reliable witness would be laughed out of town]

In my opinion, (not a legal opinion), in most states within the United States, if you fail to report a crime that you witnessed, it could potentially be "Misprison of a Felony" and it is a crime if you actively conceal the fact, as opposed to only "failing to report" the crime.

By contrast, "an accessory to a crime" knowingly, actively, and voluntarily participated in the commission of the crime before, during, or after the fact by providing ANY type of support. If a person provides any type of aid, support, shelter, financing, etc. to the perpetrator after the crime is committed they may be an accessory after the fact.

You can laugh all you want, but I think Brad Ayers is a very reliable witness, especially as to what he did and who he knew at JMWAVE, and as an Army Ranger assigned to the CIA he was certainly there, and unlike others who were there, he's given us a good and honest description of what it was like, as well as what it was like to take a ride on the Rex, and what the CIA maritime operations were like. And he's a living witness.

As for being responsible for crimes, I would think Mrs. Paine and Michael Paine, having provided aid, support, shelter and financing in furtherance of the assassination, could be indicted under the Pinkerton Doctrine, which says that the driver of a getaway car used in the course of a robbery and murder, is just as much responsible for the robbery and murder as the guy with the gun, even if he didn't know the guy was robbing the place and killing somebody. While this was generally applied to bank robbers, it could also be applied to Ruth and Michael Paine in regards to the assassination.

BK

Edited August 8, 2010 by William Kelly

[J. Raymond Carroll]

You can laugh all you want, but I think Brad Ayers is a very reliable witness,

Thank you Bill, we all need a good laugh ever now and then.

But since we are dealing with the murder of a human being -- in fact we are dealing with the murder of several human beings -- if you want to introduce the kind of oafish humor that involves a CREEP like Bradley Ayers, then maybe you should start your own COMEDY FORUM.