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David Von Pein

In Lee Harvey Oswald's Room

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LHO%27s+Room+On+Beckley.jpg

I was recently watching the 1978 Mel Stuart-directed television movie
"Ruby And Oswald", which is a film that does a very nice job of sticking
to the known facts in evidence regarding the timeline of events surrounding
President Kennedy's assassination and the days that followed 11/22/63,
and I took note of something quite interesting during the scene which has
Lee Harvey Oswald (played by Frederic Forrest) rushing into the roominghouse
on Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff at approximately 1:00 PM CST on November 22:

During the re-created scene of Oswald's probable movements and actions
while inside his small rented room (which is a re-creation that can be seen
in the video embedded above), actor Forrest hurriedly goes into the bedroom,
closes the door, takes a light windbreaker jacket (like Oswald's) out of a
closet, puts the jacket on, adjusts the collar of the jacket a little bit, zips
the jacket up about halfway (which is something, btw, that housekeeper
Earlene Roberts said that Oswald didn't do until after he came out of his
room or just as he was coming out of the room), opens a dresser drawer,
pulls a revolver out of the drawer, closes the drawer, stuffs the gun into
the waist of his pants, pulls the jacket back down over his waistband to
hide the gun, opens the bedroom door, exits the room, and closes the
door behind him.

The total time that it took for Forrest to accomplish all of the above
actions -- 22 seconds.

The only thing that director Mel Stuart probably should have had
Forrest do differently while he was performing this bedroom re-
creation is to have the actor grab a handful of extra bullets from a
dresser drawer when he was also retrieving the revolver, because it's
doubtful whether the real Oswald was carrying a bunch of bullets in his
pants pocket when he went to work with Wesley Frazier from Irving on
the morning of the assassination (seeing as how he didn't have his
revolver with him that morning at all).

Another thing that might have added a few more seconds to the total
time that Oswald spent in his room is the possible need to physically
load his .38 Smith & Wesson revolver with some bullets. Although it's
quite possible, of course, that the gun was already loaded with
bullets before Oswald ever entered the room that day. No one can know
that detail for certain.

So, even if we were add a total of 10, 20, or even 30 full seconds
onto Frederic Forrest's roominghouse re-creation to account for some
additional time required for him to grab a handful of bullets from a
drawer (or elsewhere in the room) and to possibly put a few bullets in
the chamber of the gun, the total time that Forrest would have spent
inside that bedroom would still have been less than 1 minute (and only
32 seconds, total, if we were to add only 10 seconds, which seems like
a reasonable amount of time for a man to pick up a few bullets and put
them in his pocket).

Now, granted, this "re-creation" performed by Frederic Forrest in Mel
Stuart's 1978 TV-movie doesn't "prove" a darn thing with respect to
the real Oswald's actions in November 1963. I'll readily admit that
fact.

But what it does do is to place on film a reconstruction of an event
that is purported to have taken place on November 22, 1963, by Lee
Harvey Oswald....an event that I don't think anyone has re-created on
film elsewhere in other movies or TV shows or documentaries.

And, IMO, Forrest's re-creation of Oswald's alleged movements and post-
assassination actions after arriving at the Beckley roominghouse are
probably very close to the precise movements made by the real Lee
Oswald on 11/22/63.

And the key, IMO, is the fact that all of those actions that Oswald
needed to perform after going into his bedroom could easily be
accomplished in well under one minute (and probably well under 45
seconds, even when adding a few more seconds for Oswald's needed
bullet-grabbing), as proven by actor Frederic Forrest, who did perform
such an approximate re-creation of LHO's actions in less than 25
seconds.

The "How Long Was Oswald In His Room On November 22nd?" topic
has come up at various Internet forums many times in the past, and
I have added my two cents to the debate on several occasions, such
as the following examples:


"The best guess is that [Lee] Oswald left his roominghouse at
approx. 1:03 or 1:04 PM (CST). My guess is it was even earlier than
that; because there's no way in hell he was fiddling around in that
shoebox of a room for "3 or 4 minutes", per Mrs. [Earlene] Roberts'
account. There would be absolutely no reason (logically-speaking) for
Oswald to have been in that room for more than 30 seconds at most. Was
Earlene Roberts lying? Of course she wasn't. But people have a habit
of stretching out time estimates to (incorrect) lengthier guesses when
they're asked to re-create "timelines"." -- DVP; 06/30/2006


"I'd still be willing to bet that Oswald was not in that tiny
room for "3 to 4 minutes" either. One minute tops. I don't KNOW this
to be so, quite obviously. But, as stated before, people are
notoriously rotten at gauging precise times and timelines. And Mrs.
Roberts certainly didn't have a stopwatch on Oswald; nor would she
have had any particular REASON to take note of exactly how long Oswald
stayed in his room. Her "3 to 4 minutes" is an estimate, and nothing
more. Next up from Walt I fully expect to see him claiming that J.D.
Tippit was shot at 12:50 PM, or maybe 12:55. It seems to get earlier
with each passing hunk of kookxxxx he spouts." -- DVP; 08/16/2006


"The walk back to LHO's roominghouse was re-created by WC
counsel members, and it took 5 minutes and 45 seconds....which would
have placed Oswald back home at approx. 12:59:45 PM. He was probably
in that shoebox of a room for no more than 1 minute (tops), and
probably (IMO) closer to only 30 seconds (Earlene Roberts' "3 to 4
minutes" testimony notwithstanding), which would have given Oswald
ample time to travel the 0.85 of a mile to Tenth Street to kill
Officer Tippit. The trip from 1026 Beckley to the Tippit murder site
on 10th St. has been re-created several times by different people
(with varying results, depending upon the pace, of course), and the
excursion has taken as little as 11 minutes." -- DVP; 11/08/2007

-------------------

And while it's true that housekeeper Earlene Roberts testified to the
Warren Commission on April 8, 1964, that Oswald "went on to his room
and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes" [6 H 438], it's also a fact that Mrs. Roberts
also said that Oswald was in his room "just long enough, I guess, to go in
there and get a jacket and put it on" [6 H 440].

David Von Pein
October 2008
Revised February 2010

My JFK Blogs

Edited by David Von Pein

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Is it true that the Landlady considered it her right to ensure there were no liquor or guns on the property and at some point stated that to her knowledge there was no gun in Oswald room?

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LHO%27s+Room+On+Beckley.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyB69-yYy20

I was recently watching the 1978 Mel Stuart-directed television movie

"Ruby And Oswald", which is a film that does a very nice job of sticking

to the known facts in evidence regarding the timeline of events surrounding

President Kennedy's assassination and the days that followed 11/22/63,

and I took note of something quite interesting during the scene which has

Lee Harvey Oswald (played by Frederic Forrest) rushing into the roominghouse

on Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff at approximately 1:00 PM CST on November 22:

During the re-created scene of Oswald's probable movements and actions

while inside his small rented room (which is a re-creation that can be seen

in the video embedded above), actor Forrest hurriedly goes into the bedroom,

closes the door, takes a light windbreaker jacket (like Oswald's) out of a

closet, puts the jacket on, adjusts the collar of the jacket a little bit, zips

the jacket up about halfway (which is something, btw, that housekeeper

Earlene Roberts said that Oswald didn't do until after he came out of his

room or just as he was coming out of the room), opens a dresser drawer,

pulls a revolver out of the drawer, closes the drawer, stuffs the gun into

the waist of his pants, pulls the jacket back down over his waistband to

hide the gun, opens the bedroom door, exits the room, and closes the

door behind him.

The total time that it took for Forrest to accomplish all of the above

actions -- 22 seconds.

The only thing that director Mel Stuart probably should have had

Forrest do differently while he was performing this bedroom re-

creation is to have the actor grab a handful of extra bullets from a

dresser drawer when he was also retrieving the revolver, because it's

doubtful whether the real Oswald was carrying a bunch of bullets in his

pants pocket when he went to work with Wesley Frazier from Irving on

the morning of the assassination (seeing as how he didn't have his

revolver with him that morning at all).

Another thing that might have added a few more seconds to the total

time that Oswald spent in his room is the possible need to physically

load his .38 Smith & Wesson revolver with some bullets. Although it's

quite possible, of course, that the gun was already loaded with

bullets before Oswald ever entered the room that day. No one can know

that detail for certain.

So, even if we were add a total of 10, 20, or even 30 full seconds

onto Frederic Forrest's roominghouse re-creation to account for some

additional time required for him to grab a handful of bullets from a

drawer (or elsewhere in the room) and to possibly put a few bullets in

the chamber of the gun, the total time that Forrest would have spent

inside that bedroom would still have been less than 1 minute (and only

32 seconds, total, if we were to add only 10 seconds, which seems like

a reasonable amount of time for a man to pick up a few bullets and put

them in his pocket).

Now, granted, this "re-creation" performed by Frederic Forrest in Mel

Stuart's 1978 TV-movie doesn't "prove" a darn thing with respect to

the real Oswald's actions in November 1963. I'll readily admit that

fact.

But what it does do is to place on film a reconstruction of an event

that is purported to have taken place on November 22, 1963, by Lee

Harvey Oswald....an event that I don't think anyone has re-created on

film elsewhere in other movies or TV shows or documentaries.

And, IMO, Forrest's re-creation of Oswald's alleged movements and post-

assassination actions after arriving at the Beckley roominghouse are

probably very close to the precise movements made by the real Lee

Oswald on 11/22/63.

And the key, IMO, is the fact that all of those actions that Oswald

needed to perform after going into his bedroom could easily be

accomplished in well under one minute (and probably well under 45

seconds, even when adding a few more seconds for Oswald's needed

bullet-grabbing), as proven by actor Frederic Forrest, who did perform

such an approximate re-creation of LHO's actions in less than 25

seconds.

The "How Long Was Oswald In His Room On November 22nd?" topic

has come up at various Internet forums many times in the past, and

I have added my two cents to the debate on several occasions, such

as the following examples:

"The best guess is that [Lee] Oswald left his roominghouse at

approx. 1:03 or 1:04 PM (CST). My guess is it was even earlier than

that; because there's no way in hell he was fiddling around in that

shoebox of a room for "3 or 4 minutes", per Mrs. [Earlene] Roberts'

account. There would be absolutely no reason (logically-speaking) for

Oswald to have been in that room for more than 30 seconds at most. Was

Earlene Roberts lying? Of course she wasn't. But people have a habit

of stretching out time estimates to (incorrect) lengthier guesses when

they're asked to re-create "timelines"." -- DVP; 06/30/2006

"I'd still be willing to bet that Oswald was not in that tiny

room for "3 to 4 minutes" either. One minute tops. I don't KNOW this

to be so, quite obviously. But, as stated before, people are

notoriously rotten at gauging precise times and timelines. And Mrs.

Roberts certainly didn't have a stopwatch on Oswald; nor would she

have had any particular REASON to take note of exactly how long Oswald

stayed in his room. Her "3 to 4 minutes" is an estimate, and nothing

more. Next up from Walt I fully expect to see him claiming that J.D.

Tippit was shot at 12:50 PM, or maybe 12:55. It seems to get earlier

with each passing hunk of kookxxxx he spouts." -- DVP; 08/16/2006

"The walk back to LHO's roominghouse was re-created by WC

counsel members, and it took 5 minutes and 45 seconds....which would

have placed Oswald back home at approx. 12:59:45 PM. He was probably

in that shoebox of a room for no more than 1 minute (tops), and

probably (IMO) closer to only 30 seconds (Earlene Roberts' "3 to 4

minutes" testimony notwithstanding), which would have given Oswald

ample time to travel the 0.85 of a mile to Tenth Street to kill

Officer Tippit. The trip from 1026 Beckley to the Tippit murder site

on 10th St. has been re-created several times by different people

(with varying results, depending upon the pace, of course), and the

excursion has taken as little as 11 minutes." -- DVP; 11/08/2007

-------------------

And while it's true that housekeeper Earlene Roberts testified to the

Warren Commission on April 8, 1964, that Oswald "went on to his room

and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes" [6 H 438], it's also a fact that Mrs. Roberts

also said that Oswald was in his room "just long enough, I guess, to go in

there and get a jacket and put it on" [6 H 440].

David Von Pein

October 2008

Revised February 2010

My JFK Blogs

"Now, granted, this "re-creation" performed by Frederic Forrest in Mel

Stuart's 1978 TV-movie doesn't "prove" a darn thing with respect to

the real Oswald's actions in November 1963. I'll readily admit that

fact." :lol: Who did the screenplay? Arlen Specter?

I notice the word "prove" has quotation marks, as in, "OK, it doesn't prove anything but it's obvious that that's probably what happened"

And, IMO, Forrest's re-creation of Oswald's alleged movements and post-

assassination actions after arriving at the Beckley roominghouse are

probably very close to the precise movements made by the real Lee

Oswald on 11/22/63.

So, let me get this right. He assassinates Kennedy from his workplace (a decision taken no more than two days previously), makes his get-away (it IS a get-away isn't it?) on two modes of public transport before arriving at his rooming house to collect just two things: a gun and a jacket: (Yup, the assassin makes a slick get-away to get himself...another gun! Well planned Lee!) Then he hot foots it like an Olympiad for nearly a mile (all unseen by anyone)to an area he has apparently no previous connection with, and is spotted by a 'keen-eyed cop' (conveniently placed there and told to be "at large") whom he shoots before fleeing in the opposite direction towards a cinema where he grapples with a battalion of Dallas police who'd been called to go and arrest a gate-crasher.

Is this the Oswald we have all heard about, you know, the cold calculated assassin that pulled off a meticulously planned hit....or, is he just the village idiot? His actions certainly lean towards the latter if this is the WC script.

So who really was Oswald?

David I have asked this question a few times on here but as yet no one has dared to give an answer. Even a ridiculous one! Maybe you could tell me when YOU think Oswald first made the decision to kill Kennedy.

Edited by Bernie Laverick

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I've never read you asking this q so I haven't answered. He was a patsy. He was a kid playing with the big boys and they ate him up and spat him out. I think his reactions were those of the dawning of a reality for a very bright young man.

He never made a decision to kill Kennedy. He made profiled led by the nose actions beyond his control. He survived capture and had some belief that he would have his say, so his primary concern was to get arrested alive and then live on his wits. He got a good hiding and was continually experiencing interrogation techniques from simple ones like good cop-bad cop to various psychic shocks so he would have been fairly hopeful and pliable at the end when he could speak no more and he spoke little in the time available to him. Perhaps a vague carrot had been dangled in front of him and he needed to believe in it. Or he was very conscious of what was happening and when they caught him off guard he quickly reasserted himself. He would only do this if he felt that there was a future for him. Beaten, but not cowed.

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I've never read you asking this q so I haven't answered. He was a patsy. He was a kid playing with the big boys and they ate him up and spat him out. I think his reactions were those of the dawning of a reality for a very bright young man.

He never made a decision to kill Kennedy. He made profiled led by the nose actions beyond his control. He survived capture and had some belief that he would have his say, so his primary concern was to get arrested alive and then live on his wits. He got a good hiding and was continually experiencing interrogation techniques from simple ones like good cop-bad cop to various psychic shocks so he would have been fairly hopeful and pliable at the end when he could speak no more and he spoke little in the time available to him. Perhaps a vague carrot had been dangled in front of him and he needed to believe in it. Or he was very conscious of what was happening and when they caught him off guard he quickly reasserted himself. He would only do this if he felt that there was a future for him. Beaten, but not cowed.

I feel the same way about Oswald as you do John

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Dean, I think many somewhere inside feel this is somehow so. I'm perhaps presumptious to state it worthy of consideration and various shifts in perspective made.

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I've never read you asking this q so I haven't answered. He was a patsy. He was a kid playing with the big boys and they ate him up and spat him out. I think his reactions were those of the dawning of a reality for a very bright young man.

He never made a decision to kill Kennedy. He made profiled led by the nose actions beyond his control. He survived capture and had some belief that he would have his say, so his primary concern was to get arrested alive and then live on his wits. He got a good hiding and was continually experiencing interrogation techniques from simple ones like good cop-bad cop to various psychic shocks so he would have been fairly hopeful and pliable at the end when he could speak no more and he spoke little in the time available to him. Perhaps a vague carrot had been dangled in front of him and he needed to believe in it. Or he was very conscious of what was happening and when they caught him off guard he quickly reasserted himself. He would only do this if he felt that there was a future for him. Beaten, but not cowed.

I feel the same way about Oswald as you do John

Of course, so do I. But I would like those who believe Oswald did it all alone to explain when he made the decision to do so. Not one has dared to even offer a guess so far.

Such a simple question...

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Dean, I think many somewhere inside feel this is somehow so. I'm perhaps presumptious to state it worthy of consideration and various shifts in perspective made.

Trust me at first I thought he was 100% not involved, but as time went on the same questions kept bugging me

I think to myself, would I go home and grab my gun if I didnt do anything? No

Would I go home and grab my gun if I figured out that I had been set up because I had been involved in a plot as a small player? Yes, because I would be scared for my life

Thats why I think LHO killed Tippet, because he could trust nobody and was scared for his life

I think that when Tippet pulled up to the curb and called out to Oswald that LHO said to himself this is it, this cop is going to kill me, so LHO got the draw on Tippet and killed him

Oswald had to be involved at a low level in the plot

He was set up to take the fall, and after JFK was killed he knew he was a dead man

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But the real question is this Dean, did he go and get "his" gun? You have to believe the same type of evidence that was produced concerning him ordering the rifle to believe he also ordered the revolver.

Lee,

Surely, though, the difference is that Oswald had the revolver on him when he was arrested?

You took the words right out of my mouth Martin

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A ''drop gun'' carefully maneuvered interchanging with ''dropgun 2''. I doubt Oswald would have been aware of any differences. I don't think he killed Tippit. He was a fall guy all the way. He realised in the end and I do think he had hope. Something must have given him such.

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But the real question is this Dean, did he go and get "his" gun? You have to believe the same type of evidence that was produced concerning him ordering the rifle to believe he also ordered the revolver.

Lee,

Surely, though, the difference is that Oswald had the revolver on him when he was arrested?

That depends on what you believe happened in the theater Martin.

P.S. That's to you too, Dean. Only just saw what you wrote in reply to Martin.

Lee

I open to the possibility that a gun could have been planted

Its just my opinion that Oswald owned/borrowed a revolver and went home to get it to protect himself from being silenced

As we all know Ruby silenced Oswald forever...

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ok I've gone into the dropgun scenario before including a diagram of A way that reconciled various issues including the lunchbag gun. (I also have niggling thought that the dead letter envelope has something to do with it. (this is also why I keep harping on the USPO. ALL groupings depended on one thing. Transfer of data. In all theories must be an understanding about JE Day and his visit from helms dulles and rockefeller??? aqcuiescing to illegal acts. When Kennedy got rid of him Grunowsky became the first PM* Gen to refuse a long tradition. By 1969 old personnell were given marching orders and by 71 Nixon had disbanded the oldest nexus of data in the US (world really, some of the stuff happening in global postal networking is botherdsome imo)

edit:PM not insp

Edited by John Dolva

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Dean, I think many somewhere inside feel this is somehow so. I'm perhaps presumptious to state it worthy of consideration and various shifts in perspective made.

Trust me at first I thought he was 100% not involved, but as time went on the same questions kept bugging me

I think to myself, would I go home and grab my gun if I didnt do anything? No

Would I go home and grab my gun if I figured out that I had been set up because I had been involved in a plot as a small player? Yes, because I would be scared for my life

Thats why I think LHO killed Tippet, because he could trust nobody and was scared for his life

I think that when Tippet pulled up to the curb and called out to Oswald that LHO said to himself this is it, this cop is going to kill me, so LHO got the draw on Tippet and killed him

Oswald had to be involved at a low level in the plot

He was set up to take the fall, and after JFK was killed he knew he was a dead man

I would even go one further than "involved". I believe Oswald knew exactly what was going down that day. Had history twisted itself just a little on 22nd Nov 1963 and another patsy had been assigned the role (maybe one of the knoll shooters say) Oswald would have become just another suspicious, maybe even peripheral, 'name' to add to that shadowy list of those with a possible involvement.

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ok, me, i'm gonna have to sleep on this one. laters

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My only question regarding the brief visit to the 1026 N. Beckley rooming house room is - Did Oswald change his shirt, and is the shirt he had on at the time of the arrest the same shirt he had on at the time of the assassination?

And if they are different shirts, can we see them together and compare them?

Thanks,

BK

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