In Lee Harvey Oswald's Room

[Martin Hinrichs]

I was expecting such a reaction on your part.

Indeed, as I learned a few years ago, people are rarely grateful for a demonstration of their credulity.

Well, I don't blame you. It must be really hard to try to defend ludicrous conspiracy theories against all evidence, and being held up to ridicule (and deservedly so) by reasonable people every time you turn your computer on...

/F.C./.

Weak

/D.H./.

I wonder why you ( Sorry Dean i mean also you) take this fellow serious?

Attention seeker needing responses. Thats what you do. I would ignore that.

best

Martin

[Dean Hagerman]

I wonder why you ( Sorry Dean i mean also you) take this fellow serious?

I dont take this guy serious at all Martin, he is a joke

[Martin Hinrichs]

You are an "utter screwball" to use an expression from one of your heroes.

Just in case this fellow don't know who you are mean......it's Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel. Warren Commission.

[Dean Hagerman]

/L.F./

[Bernie Laverick]

Isn't it funny how his dyslexia sorted itself out when writing and signing these?

Yeah. Jack Ruby (the guy who obviously faked Oswald's handwriting on every document connected to the JFK murder case) should have deliberately misspelled some words, just to make the forgeries look more "dyslexic friendly". That silly Mr. Rubenstein. What the hell was he thinking when framing Patsy Oswald?

You've solved the case, Lee! Congrats!

Very witty, as usual.

Thank you, Mister David Von Pein, for your very good work. In this thread, as in others, you show intelligence and critical-thinking skills, when your "opponents" have nothing of substance to say, when they are not downright silly or wrong.

I have always been a big fan of yours.

/F.C./

Your posts aren't worth the electricity it takes to post them online. Fight global warming Frank, stop "thinking" for God's sake.

And my dog's barking makes more sense than all you can say in this forum !

Poor man !

/F.C./

Well go and talk to your dog then, dullard.

/L.F./

I was expecting such a reaction on your part.

Indeed, as I learned a few years ago, people are rarely grateful for a demonstration of their credulity.

Well, I don't blame you. It must be really hard to try to defend ludicrous conspiracy theories against all evidence, and being held up to ridicule (and deservedly so) by reasonable people every time you turn your computer on...

/F.C./.

So WHY do you bother?

[David Von Pein]

Oswald had problems mixing lower case and capital letters. It is common in many people who suffer from dyslexia. Oswald suffered from this. It's not something you can turn on and off.

Well, in the case of the letter "e", I think you're wrong. Lee Harvey Oswald did, in effect, turn it "on and off", because he didn't always use a lower-case "e" when he was PRINTING.

Below are two examples of what I mean -- when printing his own first name, Oswald would many times capitalize the two Es in "Lee". But at the same time, he would use lower-case letters for the L and D in "Oswald".

But as far as the specific letter "E", Oswald would sometimes use upper-case and sometimes lower-case when PRINTING out his words.

For example, in CE793/794, we see that Oswald used a mixture of lower-case and upper-case Es multiple times -- he used upper-case Es for "Lee", "New", and "Orleans". But he used lower-case Es for "Texas" and "Magazine".

This indicates that he certainly had some control over the letters he was printing. In other words, his lower-case Es don't appear to be "involuntary" on his part.

Edited August 15, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Jim DiEugenio said:

See, unlike the world of Reclaiming History, we all know that the FBI lied, distorted, manipulated and manufactured evidence in this case. It started the very day of the assassination with the FBI call to Tomlinson telling him to shut up about the bullet he found.

I don't believe for a single solitary second that the FBI called up Darrell Tomlinson on the night of the assassination and told him to "shut up" about the bullet he found. I find it impossible to believe that the FBI actually said those two words ("shut up") to Tomlinson.

My guess is that the conspiracy author who wrote about that FBI phone call to Tomlinson was putting a nice healthy layer of "conspiracy spin" on the whole thing. And it's possible that Tomlinson himself was putting a layer of CT spin on the story too. Tomlinson, after all, is a man who told the Warren Commission no fewer than TEN TIMES that he was not sure which stretcher he had taken off of the elevator at Parkland, and yet Darrell's memory improved greatly in the 24 years following his 1964 WC session, when he told the PBS-TV cameras in 1988 that he was absolutely positive that the stretcher he took from the elevator was the stretcher that did NOT have a bullet on it.

What very likely happened is this:

The FBI called up Darrell Tomlinson (which, I'll admit, is a telephone call that the FBI could have possibly made), and since it was very late on Nov. 22, it probably meant that Oswald had already been formally charged with the murder of President Kennedy (LHO was officially charged with the assassination at 11:26 PM CST on Nov. 22).

The FBI, knowing that Tomlinson had found a bullet on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital, then told Tomlinson it would probably be a good idea not to discuss the details of his finding that bullet with anyone until Oswald's court trial could take place.

Yes, the above scenario is just a guess on my part. But it makes a lot of (common) sense to me. And I certainly don't believe for a minute that the FBI was involved in any kind of a cover-up or a conspiracy in connection with the stretcher bullet that Tomlinson found at Parkland. And I'd bet the farm that the words "shut up" were never uttered by any FBI agent during the course of any telephone call between the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Darrell C. Tomlinson.

Edited August 15, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

DVP is actually using the Klein's money order to prove that Oswald used the alias Hidell.

LOL. Of course I am. And any rational, sensible, reasonable person would do the very same thing.

Jim apparently thinks a key piece of evidence like the money order Lee Oswald made out to Klein's Sporting Goods is supposed to be IGNORED and/or DISMISSED.

How nice and convenient for you, Jim, that you feel so comfortable merely dismissing the testimony of the handwriting experts.

Of course, as we all know, Jim and his fellow Anybody-But-Oswald groupies don't have the slightest hesitation whatsoever in throwing ALL of the evidence that points to Patsy Oswald out the nearest window.

My, how convenient.

It means NOTHING to Jim D. & the ABO crowd that every official investigative committee who has ever looked into JFK's murder has determined that LEE HARVEY OSWALD killed President Kennedy.

The irrevocable fact that has BOTH the Warren Commission AND the House Select Committee coming to the same conclusion about OSWALD being the only person in Dealey Plaza who hit any victim with any bullets on Nov. 22 is a fact that people like Jim DiEugenio will totally ignore.

Mind-boggling....isn't it?

Edited August 15, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

[The money order was] Mailed from Dallas, arrived, noted at Klein's--a distance of 700 miles-- and then walked over and deposited in 24 hours. Yet, it has no zip code on the envelope, and this was done before the advent of computers.

Oswald sent it AIR MAIL, Jim. As seen in Waldman Exhibit No. 8 [pictured below].

And I'd be willing to bet that Oswald also mailed the order form to Seaport Traders in Los Angeles (for the revolver) on the very same day (March 12, 1963), and that Oswald mailed that order form via Air Mail too. Which is why we find "March 13" dates on the internal paperwork for BOTH of those Oswald/Hidell gun orders at both Klein's in Chicago and Seaport in L.A.

Edited August 15, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

LEE FARLEY SAID:

>>> "What I meant by "turning it on and off" was that all of this is done unconsciously, Dave. There's a learning process that he has gone through on these examples you provide. He didn't sit and make a conscious decision to use an upper case E on his name and a lower case e on the word TeXAS, each time he wrote it. He "learned" to do it that way. He saw it in his head that way and that's what got transfered onto paper." <<<

DVP SAID:

You could be right, Lee. But I'd also say it's possible that Oswald CHOSE to print certain letters the way he did, vs. it being done "unconsciously" on LHO's part.

LEE FARLEY SAID:

>>> "The final point I'll raise on his handwriting is this. It's very easy to forge don't you think? Especially the way he seems to go over his own writing several times with the pen. Give me 20 minutes and I could provide you with handwriting very similar from my own hand. You did suggest sarcastically that Jack Ruby was forging Lee's handwriting. If you think I think this then think again. I believe it was one of your family members. RVP. But, I'd sooner you reply to my post regarding the name "Hidell" and the anomalies involved." <<<

DVP SAID:

No, it would not be easy to forge (according to the handwriting analysts who have studied Oswald's writing and printing). If a person's unique writing were easy to forge and fake, then no handwriting analyst in the world could say this:

"Commission Exhibit No. 793 was written by Lee Harvey Oswald...based upon finding the same combination of individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics in both the questioned writing and the known standards." -- James C. Cadigan; Questioned Documents Expert for the FBI [7 H 426]

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0353b.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0217b.htm

RE: HIDELL "ANOMALIES":

Why would anyone frame Oswald by using the name "Hidell"? Just...why? Why not just use his own name--Oswald? That would certainly tie everything to the "patsy" much nicer, wouldn't it?

Bottom Line--Nobody was using "Hidell" to frame Lee H. Oswald. Oswald invented the name, used it to order some guns in March, and then killed two people with those guns in November.

Pretending Oswald was framed doesn't get anybody anywhere. It's easy to say that somebody was framed. But PROVING the frame-up is an uphill battle. And in this "Oswald/Hidell" instance, we'd have to have Oswald HIMSELF joining in the frame-up to set up himself as a patsy, given Oswald's own incriminating actions on November 22.

Edited August 15, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

What I meant by "turning it on and off" was that all of this is done unconsciously, Dave. There's a learning process that he has gone through on these examples you provide. He didn't sit and make a conscious decision to use an upper case E on his name and a lower case e on the word TeXAS, each time he wrote it. He "learned" to do it that way. He saw it in his head that way and that's what got transfered onto paper.

I don't want to harp on this too much more (I'll stop doing it after this post), but just "for the record" I wanted to show another document written by Lee Harvey Oswald that includes a combination of upper-case and lower-case Es in it (CE779). It looks more like a CHOICE Oswald is making regarding the Es he is printing:

[William Kelly]

Oswald wrote a list of analogies - including:

U2 - SOBEL - ?

Does he mean Morton Sobell?

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/12/podcast-i-spy-a-belated-confession/

[David Von Pein]

I disagree with the handwriting "experts" who were anything but "experts." His [LHO's] handwriting is a piece of piss to copy.

So Cadigan and Cole are liars then, huh Lee?

"A piece of piss"???

Cuba and his "visit" to Mexico City. Plus, what you have written answers none of the questions or irregularities I posed and posted, Dave. It's no good just saying, we know he ordered the guns when there are massive problems with the order. It's no good just saying Oswald invented the name when the name was never used as an alias by him other than on the gun orders. When I wrote my post defining a lone-nut's inability to look at the evidence within a wider context, this is exactly the sort of thing I meant.

Bottom line. You believe that a presidential assassin made up a fake name, ordered some firearms from two different states using that fake name in the hope that he could distance himself from the sale, then had them delivered to a P.O. Box that he had set-up in his real name, against all the odds and postal regulations he managed to receive and collect them, he then shot the president with the rifle, but was then lifted just over an hour later with an ID bearing the fake name that led the FBI directly to the rifle sale in less than 12 hours?

Oswald was both smart and stupid at the same time. (Not an uncommon blend of human traits, actually.)

Oswald, of course, didn't purchase his mail-order rifle so that he could kill JFK. He bought the rifle to kill General Walker. (But, yes, it's a similar situation--i.e., buying a gun through the mail using an alias, and then using that gun to commit the illegal act of an assassination attempt. But he did it all the same.)

I've often wondered why in the world Oswald didn't get rid of Rifle C2766 after his unsuccessful attempt at murdering Edwin Walker. LHO surely had to be following the Walker story closely, and probably knew the bullet had been recovered from Walker's house. Keeping the rifle after that point in time was stupid on Oswald's part. But he kept it all the same. Maybe his cheapskate nature played a part in it. Perhaps he said to himself: "I'm not spending $21.45 on a rifle just to fire one bullet from it."

Oswald, however, was smart on 11/22/63, in that he was able to keep his rifle hidden all the way up to 12:30 PM. And the "curtain rod" lie was pretty smart too, because it gave LHO a double excuse for the "package" -- 1.) the excuse for riding to Irving with Wesley Frazier on Thursday night; and 2.) the curtain rod lie explained the physical package on Nov. 22.

We can second-guess Oswald's motives and gun-purchasing actions all day long, but the best evidence tells us that Lee Harvey Oswald DID, indeed, order two guns via mail-order in early 1963. Stupid or not--he did it.

This is your core belief, that he did it, but it doesn't answer the questions about the extra wallet found in Oak Cliff, why Will Fritz kept withheld that wallet from the FBI for five days...

Huh? What wallet? Are you suggesting there really WAS a "mystery wallet" that was turned over to the FBI by Captain J.W. Fritz "five days" after the assassination? I'd sure like to see that wallet. (Of course, it doesn't exist.)

The wallet seen in Ron Reiland's film could have belonged to anyone at the scene of the crime--including J.D. Tippit. And I don't think there is any document that expressly says that Tippit's wallet was taken out of one of his pockets after Tippit was taken to Methodist Hospital (and then, later, to Parkland Hospital). If such a document exists, please post a link to it.

...how Fritz knew about the Beckley address before he was supposed to...

This is more "conspiracy myth". If Fritz was made aware of Oswald's 1026 N. Beckley Avenue address at an "early" time on November 22nd, it very likely came about in a regular and ordinary manner. Are you suggesting that Fritz was "in" on a plot to frame Oswald on the afternoon of November 22nd? Why on Earth would Fritz and the DPD want to FRAME an INNOCENT Oswald for either JFK's murder or Tippit's murder? That's just plain silly talk. I know a lot of people believe that Fritz was part of some kind of "Let's Frame Oswald" plot. But, in my opinion, it's just nutty to believe such a thing in the first place.

...and why the name Hidell didn't surface through the media until the firearm sales had been established resulting in the embellishment of the Warren Commission testimony of the arresting officers.

So the name "Hidell" wasn't mentioned by anybody prior to Jesse Curry's hallway interview on Saturday, November 23rd. Big freakin' deal! So what? What does it prove? Answer: It proves nothing.

And we're only talking 24 hours or so after the assassination. Curry mentioned the name "A. Hidell" to the press and the world on live television on the afternoon (or early evening) of November 23.

And I suppose you think Marina Oswald was a xxxx too, right? She testified that she first heard about her husband using the alias "Hidell" while she and LHO were still living in New Orleans in the summer of 1963, many months before the assassination.

Footnote---

Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA concluded that Lee Oswald used the alias "Hidell" to order the C2766 rifle that killed JFK and the revolver that killed Officer Tippit.

Can you, Lee, provide a good, solid, and reasonable explanation for why BOTH of those U.S. Government investigative committees totally blew it when it comes to Oswald using the Hidell alias (if, in fact, strong evidence actually points in the other direction--i.e., toward the direction of the name "Hidell" being invented by someone other than Lee Harvey Oswald)?

And how is it possible for BOTH of those committees (the WC and the HSCA) to have gotten things so totally wrong (from the CTers' POV) with respect to their identical conclusion of Oswald being the person who killed JFK and Tippit? (Particularly the HSCA, which was an organization that desperately wanted to find a conspiracy in the case.)

BOTH the WC and the HSCA were filled with liars, Lee? Do you really believe that? Really??

Edited August 15, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

There is so much wrong with your reply it looks like it's going to be a late night.

You can save yourself the trouble, Lee. I know what your responses will be: Total conjecture and nothing of substance. As per usual. You're a JFK Conspiracy Theorist, so how could I expect ACTUAL EVIDENCE to back up a CTer's claims, when no such actual evidence exists in the first place? After all, you're not Houdini.

And in the final analysis, a bunch of speculation and suspicions coming from a covey of Anybody-But-Oswald hobbyists couldn't possibly matter less when stacked up against the huge pile of evidence that proves Lee Harvey Oswald was a double-murderer.

Edited August 15, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

HIDELL ADDENDUM:

I just now realized that there is additional evidence that proves the name "A.J. Hidell" was a name Oswald was using as an alias while in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 (apart from Marina Oswald's testimony and the documents linking the "Hidell" name to Oswald via the order forms for the guns).

That additional evidence is CE826, which is an FBI report filed by New Orleans agent Milton Kaack on October 31, 1963, three weeks BEFORE the assassination. The name "HIDELL" surfaces numerous times in CE826, during FBI Agent John Quigley's report about his personal interview with Oswald in the New Orleans police station in August '63. (Quigley's report is a part of Kaack's report.)

HERE'S the complete 17-page Kaack report. [An excerpt with several "Hidell" references is pictured below.]

More About Commission Exhibit 826

Edited August 15, 2010 by David Von Pein