Jump to content
The Education Forum
David Von Pein

In Lee Harvey Oswald's Room

Recommended Posts

Only in the world of Reclaiming History could such silliness be accepted.

And only in the world of conspiracy-giddy theorists could such things like OSWALD BEING CAUGHT WITH THE MURDER WEAPON ON HIM within 35 minutes of the murder of a policeman be considered "silliness".

You're doing great, Jim. Please continue. And I want to hear more about your fantasy about Wes Frazier and Linnie Randle being forced by the rotten & corrupt DPD to make up the "bag" story out of whole cloth.

That's a tale Aesop would reject out of hand.

"And only in the world of conspiracy-giddy theorists could such things like OSWALD BEING CAUGHT WITH THE MURDER WEAPON ON HIM within 35 minutes of the murder of a policeman be considered "silliness".

Yes David, of course patsies have incriminating evidence on them. if not they wouldn't be patsies would they?

I do presume you accept that in the entire history of humanity there has been such a thing as a patsy before. Somewhere surely. If so, there will be incriminating evidence tying them to the deed, placed there by people who want to cover up their own involvement.

Shouldn't really have to be explaining this....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The photo linked below was (purportedly) taken on the afternoon of the assassination by LIFE Magazine's Allan Grant. There are curtains and curtain rods in place:

David,

I have real problems with the idea that the Grant image was taken on the afternoon of the 22nd.

First I can't believe that the police, who would be searching and examining this room would allow a commercial photographer to come in and take a picture.

Second. See Image below

The image on the right, from Dale Myers "With Malice" shows the state of the room once the police were finished with it.

What I find interesting is that the bundle of bedclothes can be seen in the Grant image, with a blanket over them.

So in the afternoon these bedding items are bundled at the bottom of the bed and covered, and at night they are uncovered.

Third The inner curtain rail, which can hardly be seen in the Grant image, is not bent. Yet if this image was taken after the police had searched the room,

This inner curtain rail is not bent. Yet the evening picture shows it clearly bent. Myers makes it clear that it was the police who bent this rail.

Fourth In the Grant picture, apparently taken in the afternoon, we can see the outer white curtain rail. However at night it is no longer to be seen.

Fifth The image I showed, which comes from the Weisberg collection, and was taken on the Saturday the 23rd we see the person replacing the outer white curtain rail.

For these five reasons I doubt the Grant image was taken on the afternoon of the 22nd. It had to have been taken after the Weisber image.

I am sorry for the size and quality of the image, but I appear to be close to my storage quota

James.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, Jim, I thought you'd like the Aynesworth quote.

Naturally, Jim DiEugenio thinks Aynesworth is (and always was) nothing but a rotten, evil CIA-sponsored xxxx.

Good job, Jim. You're doing great in the "Everybody's A xxxx" regard.

Yea, Hugh Aynesworth is a lier. Not everybody is a xxxx, just Hugh Aynesworth and Joe Goulden, who made up the trial ballon they floated that Oswald was an FBI informant and a number attributed to him. That was a lie and a Whopper.

And Ayneworth did try to enlist in the CIA and is a certified "asset," who today works for the Mooney Korean CIA owned Washinton Times, and his pal Joe Goulden was a good friend of David A. Phillips and writes regularly for Phillips org magazine and newsletter. They are both singing Mockingbirds.

Though I do believe Aynesworth when he says that Oswald's room had curtain rods, which proves that he took the rifle to work that day instead of curtain rods and used it to kill the President.

BK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Though I do believe Aynesworth when he says that Oswald's room had curtain rods, which proves that he took the rifle to work that day instead of curtain rods and used it to kill the President.

:lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For all that to work... doesn't that little paper bag in the back seat of the car need to be MUCH BIGGER than anyone says it was to hold a broken down rifle?

How did the bag even get back to the Paines to begin with... if Oswald made it Wed/Thur there are not enough fold marks on it to have been made small enough

that Wesley would not notice it on the ride home... or was it made well before hand (even though it does not match the paper at work)

And finally... given that Oswald does not know the motorcade is late by 20-30mins minutes (announcements for the luncheon range from 12 to 12:30) we are supposed to believe he waits until AFTER the earliest announced time for the luncheon to actual begin, to make his way up to the 6th floor, assemble the rifle, etc... ?

Once again, facts are nice but without context and perspective to other facts they are meaningless. There are so many, "Even if's" this, that or the other happens... there are enough other facts that contradict the conclusions of the isolated fact you are discussing.

Oswald was seen after 12:10 and as much as 12:20 on the 2nd floor. He had no idea when the motorcade was passing HIS window.

DJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David. I think that within your post is a very important key. : Irrespective of Oswalds role, the basic suggestion re timing would apply to any assassin/s. I understand a local public radio station ran an ongoing update of the processions location. The weather ''downtown'' was checked from Lovefield by the SS in deciding to put on or not the bubbletop. Kennedy made a few unexpected stops like getting out and greeting a group of schoolchildren. So there was an unpredictability to the whole thing that only radio communication could deal with. I suppose the q of who were known to be in constant update. There could be 4 sources perhaps. The SS band, the police band, the public radio, a fourth party, independent or tapping. I understand that HD Holmes with 4-5 unnamed persons stationed directly opposite the snipers nest had a radio on as well as phone links. The SS and the police and the radio broadcast. Which would be the most up to date? Would one have to be involved in the transmissions to be part of the conspiracy? I feel there is something to be gained from exploring this and more along this line. It in itself could be the thing that could be agreed on as being a strong indicator that the assassin/s did indeed have confedererates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David I have asked this question a few times on here but as yet no one has dared to give an answer. Even a ridiculous one! Maybe you could tell me when YOU think Oswald first made the decision to kill Kennedy.

The answer to that question can never be known. You know that. Everybody knows it's an unanswerable question, and different people will have different opinions about it.

My own "opinion" is that he probably made the decision to try to make an attempt on JFK's life sometime on Wednesday evening, November 20th. He then asks Wes Frazier for the unusual ride to Irving on Thursday morning and LHO invents his "curtain rod" lie at that time.

So it's pretty clear that by Thursday AM, he had it in his mind to make an attempt on JFK's life.

But on Thursday night, per Marina, LHO says that he would get an apartment in Dallas "tomorrow" if she would agree to come back to Dallas with him to live right away. So it's highly unlikely he would have taken that rifle to work with him on Friday if Marina had said "Yes".

The rest is history, of course. LHO took his rifle to work on Nov. 22 and got extremely lucky when he found himself completely alone on the sixth floor at exactly 12:30.

If Bonnie Ray Williams (or other employees) had been up there on the sixth floor at 12:30, there is no way, IMO, that Oswald would have fired a single shot at JFK.

So, yes, Oswald was one LUCKY Presidential assassin on November 22, 1963. No question about that. But he WAS a Presidential assassin that day. There's no question about THAT either.

"Everybody knows it's an unanswerable question,"

Is it unanswerable because there isn't one piece of evidence to suggest that Oswald ever made such a plan? Of course, that doesn't mean he didn't. It just means you cannot prove he did. So as things stand we have to assume he didn't! The burden of proof is on you remember?

"So it's pretty clear that by Thursday AM, he had it in his mind to make an attempt on JFK's life."

What, because of a tiff with his wife? :lol: Is this really the only motive you can offer?

And "...if Marina had said "Yes"." None of this would have ever happened?

"But he WAS a Presidential assassin that day. There's no question about THAT either."

No question? Then why nearly a half century after the event are you still desperately having to defend the ridiculous WC conclusion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes David, of course patsies have incriminating evidence on them. if not they wouldn't be patsies would they?

Oh, sure. And the police in the Texas Theater just shoved the S&W .38 into Oswald's hands in the theater and whispered to him -- "Hey, Lee, would you be kind enough to go along with this patsy plot we're undertaking today, and take this gun and act like you want to shoot a bunch of us cops with it? How 'bout it, buddy? Will you help us out with this thing? I'll buy you a beer (or a Dr. Pepper) if you do."

th_LOL.gif?t=1279663555

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Then why nearly a half century after the event are you still desperately having to defend the ridiculous WC conclusion?

Because conspiracy theorists have had a willful desire for over 4 decades to mangle and twist the known "Oswald Did It" facts in the case. (Plus there's the fact that very few CTers have any ability at all to evaluate evidence properly and with common sense.)

That's why.

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes David, of course patsies have incriminating evidence on them. if not they wouldn't be patsies would they?

Oh, sure. And the police in the Texas Theater just shoved the S&W .38 into Oswald's hands in the theater and whispered to him -- "Hey, Lee, would you be kind enough to go along with this patsy plot we're undertaking today, and take this gun and act like you want to shoot a bunch of us cops with it? How 'bout it, buddy? Will you help us out with this thing? I'll owe you a beer if you do."

th_LOL.gif?t=1279663555

Couldn't they have just 'taken' it from his pocket? And no, not the police plural, but one particular cop, McDonald, during the melee: he simply pretends to produce it from Oswald's pocket. How difficult would that be to do?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Then why nearly a half century after the event are you still desperately having to defend the ridiculous WC conclusion?

Because conspiracy theorists have had a willful desire for over 4 decades to mangle and twist the known "Oswald Did It" facts in the case. (Plus there's the fact that very few CTers have any ability at all to evaluate evidence properly and with common sense.)

That's why.

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

Too bad then that more than 60% of Americans and almost 80% of Europeans believe he didn't do it!

If this conspiracy theory is so "mangled" and "twisted" what does that say about the inept prosecutors who still cannot prove, after a half a century, that they got their man?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DVP likes to make up unlikely scenarios that he can then ridicule. All the time ignoring much more likely ones that he cannot.

Oh, sure. It's much MUCH more "likely" for the revolver to have been "planted" on Oswald in the theater than it is to believe Johnny Brewer and all of the cops who were there (who all said Oswald pulled the gun out of his waist and tried to shoot some people with it) -- right Jim?

LOL. Jim, please stop! You know my bladder is a very weak one!

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. Seaport Traders sent REA [Railway Express Agency] a different priced gun than that which was ordered.

Wrong.

Lee Harvey Oswald (aka A.J. Hidell) ordered a .38 revolver for $29.95. And Seaport Traders mailed him a .38 Smith & Wesson revolver worth that exact amount -- $29.95. Michaelis Exhibit No. 2 proves this fact:

MichaelisEx2.jpg?t=1280880552

Jim DiEugenio apparently thinks that because there's a ".38 S&W Special" listed for $39.95 on this order form that Oswald used to purchase his .38 revolver, this must mean (per Jim D.) that Seaport shipped the wrong gun to Oswald/Hidell.

Jim, as usual, is wrong. Quite obviously, BOTH the $29.95 gun that Oswald ordered and the $39.95 gun marked as a "Special" in the above-linked advertisement were BOTH considered to be Smith & Wesson "Specials".

Jim D., as always, is focusing on the wrong information, as well as twisting other information into his liking, to serve his pathetic "Anybody But Oswald" purposes.

2. There is no evidence LHO went to REA to pick up the gun, which was normal procedure.

There was very likely no need for Oswald to go to the Railway Express office to pick up the revolver. The gun itself was physically shipped by REA to Oswald's Dallas P.O. Box. We know that via Michaelis Exhibit No. 4 and the testimony of Heinz W. Michaelis [at 7 H 378]:

JOSEPH BALL -- "I will show you another document here which is a slip of red paper marked "Railway Express Agency" which has been heretofore identified with an FBI Exhibit No. DL-29 [which was marked by the Warren Commission as "Michaelis Exhibit No. 4"]. What is that document?" ....

HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "That is a copy of the receipt which we got from the Railway Express Agency showing that on March 20, 1963, one carton with a pistol was shipped to A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas. It shows, furthermore, that Railway Express is instructed to collect a c.o.d. fee of $19.95. And it shows furthermore the number of the original receipt, which is 70638."

MichaelisEx4.jpg?t=1280880655

So the merchandise itself (the revolver) was shipped by REA to Oswald's Dallas post office box. And if REA's procedure was to collect the C.O.D. and service fee directly from the purchaser (in this case, Oswald/Hidell), then why would they ever actually physically ship the merchandise to a POST OFFICE BOX in the first place? They would obviously realize that the purchaser would likely not be standing beside his P.O. Box waiting for the REA truck to come by.

There are, btw, special instructions for "Agent At Destination" and "Agent At Shipping Point" on the REA C.O.D. shipping document (Michaelis Exhibit No. 5, shown HERE).

The "Agent At Shipping Point" instructions would obviously apply to the post office workers who would ultimately be handling the gun package that was shipped to P.O. Box 2915 by REA.

And the post office workers would place in Oswald's P.O. Box a slip of paper telling him he has a C.O.D. package at the front desk. The post office would then collect the proper C.O.D. charges from Oswald/Hidell.

I suppose it's possible that I'm wrong about how these types of "COD" transactions worked when companies shipped merchandise to P.O. Boxes, but if the PHYSICAL ITEM itself was actually shipped to P.O. Box 2915 (and Heinz Michaelis said it was in his WC testimony), then it means that the post office employees would be initially handling the money from Oswald (since, quite obviously, Oswald didn't set up camp and live right there inside his post office box as he waited for the delivery truck to show up with his pistol).

But, then too, only conspiracy theorists actually believe that all of this chaff about the REA paperwork is the slightest bit important. Reasonable people, however, can easily determine that Lee Harvey Oswald received revolver #V510210 from Seaport Traders in March 1963 and he killed Officer J.D. Tippit with that gun on 11/22/63 (regardless of any paperwork and red tape that might be missing from the official records of the Railway Express Agency).

3. There is no evidence of a notification card telling LHO to do this [i.e., go to REA to pick up the gun].

And that's very likely due to the fact that Oswald didn't need to go to the Railway Express office to pick up the revolver. He picked it up right there at the post office.

Plus: Even if Oswald was required to go to the REA office to get the gun, why on Earth would the slip of paper telling him to do so need to be retained by anybody? That type of paperwork would very likely get thrown away after Oswald picked up his merchandise.

4. There is no signed receipt in evidence.

And that's because Oswald didn't need to sign anything, as explained by Heinz W. Michaelis [at 7 H 377]:

HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "The order received by mail is written up and invoiced in quadruplicate on a snap-out form. .... The fourth copy is the acknowledgment of the order copy and lists on the back side a statement which has to be signed by the respective customer."

JOE BALL -- "What statement?

MR MICHAELIS -- "A statement to the effect, I believe that it said that the buyer states that he is a citizen of the United States, and that he has never been convicted in any court of the United States, territories, possessions, et cetera."

MR. BALL -- "Well, now, this fourth copy that has on the back this statement by the customer, is that mailed to the customer?"

MR. MICHAELIS -- "It is mailed to the customer, but not in this particular case. Indicated on the invoice are three X's, which indicates that we have already a statement to this effect on file because this particular mail order coupon has already the statement, and the name of the witness."

5. There is no 5024 form in evidence.

Here again, to a conspiracy theorist like Jim DiEugenio, the stuff that ISN'T in evidence (which the CTer thinks should be in evidence) is always much more important than what IS in evidence.

In this instance, Jim is much more concerned about a "5024 form" not being in evidence than he is about the fact that Oswald had on him the EXACT GUN that Seaport Traders mailed to "A.J. Hidell" at Oswald's P.O. Box.

In other words, chaff always trumps wheat if you're a conspiracy theorist the likes of James DiEugenio.

6. In the WC, the wrong price is added up on the exhibit.

Oh, good heavens! Tell me it ain't so, Jim!

I guess this must mean we should let Oswald off the hook for shooting Tippit then.

And, btw, if you're referring to Michaelis Exhibit 5, the amount written in the "Amount To Be Paid" box ($19.95) is not incorrect at all. That is the correct amount to be remitted to Seaport Traders. The other amount (the $1.27 C.O.D. service charge) goes to Railway Express, not Seaport Traders.

7. There is no evidence of a certificate of good character being produced, even though it was state law.

No certificate was required in this case, because Oswald had already provided that information via his fake "D.F. Drittal" endorsement on the mail-order coupon that he sent to Seaport Traders. (Also see my response to your #4 item above.)

8. There is no evidence of a payment deposited by REA or transferred to Seaport.

You're wrong. And Heinz Michaelis provided that information in his Warren Commission testimony [at 7 H 378-379]:

JOE BALL -- "Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway Express did remit to you the $19.95?"

HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "The fact that the exhibit number...was attached to the red copy of the invoice...indicates that the money was received."

Plus: The word "Paid" is written right on the invoice too. (Michaelis No. 2)

9. No documentation that the transaction ever happened was in Oswald's belongings.

I guess Jim DiEugenio thinks that Oswald should have kept every receipt he ever had in his possession for everything he ever purchased throughout his life. LOL.

And as indicated earlier, it's very likely that no "receipt" was ever given to Oswald (by anybody) regarding his purchase of the revolver. Therefore, of course, no receipt is going to be found among Oswald's possessions after the assassination.

JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:

>>> "10. There is no evidence the ammo was ever purchased." <<<

This is just too silly to talk about.

Oswald quite obviously DID purchase some bullets to go into his Smith & Wesson revolver. We know he acquired several bullets to go into that gun, because he fired at least four (and maybe five) of those bullets at Officer Tippit on Tenth Street. Plus, LHO had five bullets in his pants pocket and six additional bullets inside the chamber of the gun when he was arrested in the theater just thirty-five minutes after Tippit was slain.

The math's pretty easy to figure out here (except if you're in the "Anybody But Oswald" club, of course).

JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:

>>> "The first reports were of automatic shells found at the scene." <<<

But those early (and inaccurate) reports weren't as a result of a cop actually examining the shells themselves. The initial confusion about the shells possibly being from an automatic came mainly from eyewitness Ted Callaway, who told the police that the gunman he saw leaving the Tippit crime scene was carrying the gun in such a manner that he thought the gun was an automatic (which could be loaded through the handle of the weapon). Hence, the incorrect information was broadcast about the killer being armed with an "automatic".

Plus, this whole "automatic" argument is really, really stupid in the first place (even if you're a conspiracy believer).

Why?

Because if an automatic gun had really been used to kill Officer Tippit, then the bullet shells that were recovered at the crime scene would have been found right next to Tippit's patrol car, instead of where we know they all were found--in the Davises' yard at the corner of 10th & Patton.

Does Jim DiEugenio really believe that the real killer of Tippit picked up his four spent "automatic" cartridges and then tossed them into the bushes at the corner of Tenth and Patton? There's not a single witness who ever said anything like that occurred. The gunman was physically dumping shells out of his gun at the corner, which MUST mean that the killer shot Tippit with a revolver and not an automatic.

JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:

>>> "What happened to Poe's initials?" <<<

Let's have a look at what Dallas Police Officer J.M. Poe told the Warren Commission on April 7, 1964 [at 7 H 68]:

JOE BALL -- "Did you put any markings on the hulls?"

J.M. POE -- "I couldn't swear to it; no, sir."

So, as we can see via the above testimony, Officer Poe told the Warren Commission that he wasn't sure whether or not he marked the two bullet shells that Domingo Benavides handed him.

But, naturally, anything that anybody told the evil, rotten Warren boys is supposed to flushed down the toilet. Right, Jim D.?

DiEugenio pulls this same trick with Darrell Tomlinson too (the man who found Bullet CE399 on Governor Connally's stretcher at Parkland Hospital). Tomlinson told the Warren Commission over and over again that he wasn't sure which of the two stretchers he had taken off of the elevator at Parkland. He said he wasn't sure about TEN different times during his WC session. But, naturally, that testimony means zilch to an "Anybody But Oswald" conspiracy theorist like James DiEugenio.

Plus, the two "Poe" bullet shells aren't even needed in order to know with 100% certainty that ALL FOUR shells found at the Tippit murder scene were shells that came out of Oswald's V510210 S&W revolver.

Why is this so?

Simple:

Because we know from the weight of the witness testimony that ONLY ONE GUNMAN was ejecting shells out of ONE SINGLE GUN near the corner of Tenth Street and Patton Avenue just after Officer Tippit was killed.

And since we know for a fact that the OTHER TWO SHELLS FROM OSWALD'S GUN that were found by TWO additional witnesses on that same day of November 22 have absolutely no problems or question marks hanging over them regarding the chain of custody....this, therefore, must mean that ALL FOUR of the shells had to have been left at the scene by the one gunman who was dumping shells out of ONLY ONE GUN at the crime scene.

Conspiracists never seem to want to perform the above common-sense math. (Gee, I wonder why?)

THE MURDER OF J.D. TIPPIT AND THE HILARIOUS DEFENSE OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good job, Jim DiEugenio. Keep focusing on the unimportant chaff, while the wheat just sails right by your nose.

You're doing an excellent job at pretending a double-murderer didn't murder anybody in November 1963.

Your posts on this revolver matter are truly pathetic. (Not to mention laughable. My weak bladder will attest to that fact.)

P.S. --- If DiEugenio tries hard enough, I'll bet he'll find a way for Jack Ruby to be completely innocent of shooting Oswald too. How 'bout it, Jim?

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim DiEugenio's last batch of answers are just as hilarious and goofy as his others.

First off, Belin didn't examine Michaelis--Joe Ball did. (Ball's a rotten evil cover-up agent too, no doubt; right Jim?)

The $19.95 in the "Amount" box on Michaelis No. 5 is correct -- because it's only reflecting the amount to be remitted by the post office to SEAPORT TRADERS, not the REA fee.

Oswald was given exactly what he ordered--a $29.95 .38 Smith & Wesson Commando, and Michaelis #2 proves the COMMANDO was a gun that was being sold by Seaport for $29.95, not $39.95. Why DiEugenio thinks otherwise is a mystery.

REA didn't just merely "hope" that the customer (Oswald) would pay them, for Pete sake. They shipped the gun to the address provided by Oswald (PO Box 2915), and then the post office undoubtedly made sure that the COD charges were paid by the customer (Oswald) before the post office employee handed over the gun to LHO. The post office then must have remitted the $1.27 service charge to REA, plus they remitted the $19.95 that was owed to Seaport Traders.

If Oswald didn't fork over the cash, he doesn't get the gun. (Duh.)

Gerald Hill never said that the SHELLS themselves were examined before a radio report was made regarding the "automatic". Get away from Hurt, Jim. He hurts.

Why would anyone believe there was more than one gunman at the Tippit murder? Not even Acquilla Clemons said that. She never said TWO GUNS were involved. And every single witness other than Acquilla said ONE PERSON and only one person was involved in the shooting. Hence, ONE GUN was used.

And the LONE GUNMAN was seen physically dumping shells out of that ONE gun at the corner of 10th & Patton.

Hence, no automatic could have possibly been involved in the Tippit murder.

Jim, you're really looking desperate by pretending Oswald was innocent of shooting Tippit too. Only a CTer in the farthest-out regions of Conspiracy Land could possibly begin to think Oswald didn't kill Tippit after evaluating the wealth of evidence in the case that proves he was guilty.

I'll repeat my "bottom line" that I posted earlier, because it applies in this post too:

"The key bottom-line fact: The Tippit murder weapon was in the possession of Oswald on 11/22/63, and he was caught red-handed with it in the Texas Theater just half-an-hour after that same gun was used to murder J.D. Tippit."

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...