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David Josephs

Timing of the assassination

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I agree that David has hit upon something.

If the Trade Mart was scheduled earlier then Oswald's activities from about 11:55 on make absolutely no sense.

As Bob Tanenbaum once said as he reviewed the WC volumes, the amount of exculpatory evidence left out of the report by the Commission was "an abomination."

This thing is so obvious, yet "they" still march on.

Are you saying Jim , that the Trade Mart Speech was scheduled at a much earlier time that we were led to believe?

If so, this is very important information that has been withheld from us.

So much exculpatory evidence withheld from the public.

"Abomonation" is an understatement.

This was TREASON.

Edited by Peter McGuire

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I agree that David has hit upon something.

If the Trade Mart was scheduled earlier then Oswald's activities from about 11:55 on make absolutely no sense.

As Bob Tanenbaum once said as he reviewed the WC volumes, the amount of exculpatory evidence left out of the report by the Commission was "an abomination."

This thing is so obvious, yet "they" still march on.

Are you saying Jim , that the Trade Mart Speech was scheduled at a much earlier time that we were led to believe?

If so, this is very important information that has been withheld from us.

So much exculpatory evidence withheld from the public.

"Abomonation" is an understatement.

This was TREASON.

Not sure that is what Jim was saying...

The Luncheon was to start at 12. (see the invitation on the first page of thread)

The speech at 1pm.

AF-1 was to arrive at 11:30 and arrive at the Trade Mart approx 45 min later when JFK was to have a quick lunch and then give his speech.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm

The Motorcade Route

On November 8, when Lawson was briefed on the itinerary for the trip to Dallas, he was told that 45 minutes had been allotted for a motorcade procession from Love Field to the luncheon site. Lawson was not specifically instructed to select the parade route, but he understood that this was one of his functions. Even before the Trade Mart had been definitely selected, Lawson and Sorrels began to consider the best motorcade route from Love Field to the Trade Mart. On November 14, Lawson and Sorrels attended a meeting at Love Field and on their return to Dallas drove over the route which Sorrels believed best suited for the proposed motorcade. This route, eventually selected for the motorcade from the airport to the Trade Mart, measured 10 miles and could be driven easily within the allotted 45 minutes. From Love Field the route passed through a portion of suburban Dallas, through the downtown area along Main Street and then to the Trade Mart via Stemmons Freeway. For the President's return to Love Field following the luncheon, the agents selected the most direct route, which was approximately 4 miles.

After the selection of the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, Lawson and Sorrels met with Dallas Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry, Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor, Deputy Chief N. T. Fisher, and several other command officers to discuss details of the motorcade and possible routes. The route was further reviewed by Lawson and Sorrels with Assistant Chief Batchelor and members of the local host committee on November 15. The police officials agreed that the route recommended by Sorrels was the proper one and did not express a belief that any other route might be better. On November 18, Sorrels and Lawson drove over the selected route with Batchelor and other police officers, verifying that it could be traversed within 45 minutes. Representatives of the local host committee and the White House staff were advised by the Secret Service of the actual route on the afternoon of November 18.

But the plane did not land at 11:30 nor did JFK leave Love field at 11:30 but at 11:55 pushing the parade route timing out yet leaving those at the Luncheon and waiting for the speech still on time.

If Oswald the assassin was doing his due diligence he'd know about the 11:30 time and the 45 min travel time and have to be at the Sninper's Nest by 12 the latest. It's 5-8 minutes from Dealey to the Trade Mart.

The radio, according to Mrs Reid, stated that the motorcade was 5 mins late. Does Oswald know this slight time adjustment is incorrect and that the limo would not pass by until 12:30 instead of 12:10-12:15... obviously not as he is seen having lunch until 12:15 or as late as 12:25 down on the 2nd floor.

Only those "in the know" would be on the 6th floor at 12:15, rifle ready, windows open, books stacked... right about the time Williams is eating lunch and Dougherty is wandering around.

So it is not so much that the Luncheon was scheduled earlier as much as the lack of knowledge about how late the limo would be passing by the window he is accused of being in for no real reason, at 12:30 instead of 12:10.... and the fact that WCR testimony makes it virtually impossible for him to either know this info or be at that window with enough time to do what he is accused of...

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I see.

"But the plane did not land at 11:30 nor did JFK leave Love field at 11:30 but at 11:55 pushing the parade route timing out yet leaving those at the Luncheon and waiting for the speech still on time.

If Oswald the assassin was doing his due diligence he'd know about the 11:30 time and the 45 min travel time and have to be at the Sninper's Nest by 12 the latest. It's 5-8 minutes from Dealey to the Trade Mart."

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Its [sic] amazing how important things like this get discovered so many years later.

Yeah, if you conspiracy-happy theorists take another 46 years, you'll probably be saying that the assassination never really occurred at all. It was probably some kind of "Bobby Was In The Shower" dream or something.

Brian David Andersen is one step ahead of you guys though -- he knows JFK wasn't killed at all. It was merely an "incident" on Elm Street, not a killing. JFK was wearing a pyrotechnics device on his head to simulate his brains being blown out:

http://MyGodImHit.com

Edited by David Von Pein

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It's very easy to understand Terminal DiEugenio Disease:

If any evidence points to Lee H. Oswald, that evidence must be thrown straight in the garbage can (no matter how much of it there is). And it doesn't matter how many people you have to call liars in order to keep Saint Ozzie's skirts clean and starched -- Jimbo's always ready and eager to do it.

Edited by David Von Pein

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It's a bit hard to understand terminal post dis ease. I thought some pretty good brainstorming was going on there for a while, (still with no idea where such an approach might lead if people were to take it somewhat seriously).

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It's very easy to understand Terminal DiEugenio Disease:

If any evidence points to Lee H. Oswald, that evidence must be thrown straight in the garbage can (no matter how much of it there is). And it doesn't matter how many people you have to call liars in order to keep Saint Ozzie's skirts clean and starched -- Jimbo's always ready and eager to do it.

Simple questions DVP... How does Oswald know to be at the window at 12:30.

When does Oswald assemble the rifle and not get a single fingerprint on it

When does Oswald build the Sniper's Lair and only get his fingerprints on 1-2 boxes

When does Williams leave the 6th floor

When does Dougherty leave the 6th floor

How many people need to see Oswald between 12:15-12:25 for you to believe them

Why does Baker's affidavit specifically say "on the stairs between the 3rd and 4th floors" as opposed to "in the 2nd floor lunchroom"

Who were the men seen leaving the back of the TSBD

How do 57+ witnesses get it wrong when they say shots were fired from behind the fence on the Knoll

Sorry David but there is no actual evidence that Oswald was at that window at 12:30, owned the rifle, knew when the limo would pass the TSBD, had bought any ammo for that rifle, had ever fired that rifle.

But there is quite a bit of evidence that shows if he were the assassin his actions and whereabouts are not consistent with being in any kind of position to carry out his desire of killing JFK. And all this evidence exists within the WCR...

A person needs Motive AND Opportunity... Oswald had neither

Edited by David Josephs

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Guest Tom Scully

Only in America could the "findings" in the WC report still be propped up by "serious people" after 47 years.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QJ-WirJls...rch_s&cad=0

Deep Politics and the Death of JFK? - Page 179

by Peter Dale Scott - History - 1996

"....Blakey chose to link Rosselli to Trafficante, by citing his "management role" in

the Havana Sans Souci casino. More pertinent was probably the fact that the Sans Scouci was operated, at this time, by Dave Yaras and Lenny Patrick, the suspected killers of James Ragen (9 AH 948). Also at this time, Rosselli's most constant companion was "Major" Charkes "Babe" Baron, a suspected murderer who was also a brigadier-general in the Illinois National Guard. Baron was a protege of Chicago Democratic machine leader Jake Arvey, as were Yaras and Patrick; and an even closer friend of Patrick Hoy, the Henry Crown employee at General Dynamics who arranged for Sidney Korshak to work for Hilton Hotels. Hoy was also the general manager of the Sherman Hotel in Chicago, a hangout frequented by Ruby and Jones in 1947 (22 WH 366; 24 WH 518 Chicago crime commission, report, 1963)"....

http://books.google.com/books?id=QCoXAAAAI...UCZPGyASQsIC-CA

Kup's Chicago? - Page 53

by Irv Kupcinet - Chicago (Ill.) - 1962 - 286 pages

"But I'ma hotelman," Hoy protested. "I know nothing about mixing concrete. ...

"Maybe not", said Crown. "But without being a cook you've done an excellent job of running the Pump Room. Yielding to Crown's persuasion, Hoy began a new career at age forty-" ...

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=hoy...user_hdate=1960

Division Chief Raised By General Dynamics

- New York Times - May 6, 1960

Patrick H. Hoy General Dynamics Corporation announced yesterday the election of Patrick H. Hoy as a senior vice president of the company. ...

HOTEL MAN IN NEW POST; Hoy Becoming President of Material Service

- New York Times - Mar 31, 1960

His appointment was announced jointly yesterday by Frank Pace Jr., chairman of General Dynamics, and Henry Crown, chairman of Material Service. Mr. Hoy had ...

http://books.google.com/books?q=crown%20ch...sa=N&tab=np

The Defender: The Story of General Dynamics? - Page 228

by Roger Franklin - Technology & Engineering - 1986 - 385 pages

Crown rapidly demolished the faint hope that he would stay close to Chicago and

... He brought in several Chicago cronies, including one, Patrick H. Hoy, ...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=A8sqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gc0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=840,5517179&dq=songbird+chicago+businessmen+househol&hl=en

http://dspace.wrlc.org/doc/bitstream/2041/50038/b18f07-1026zdisplay.pdf

October 26, 1963

...I took the story back to Washington and Attorney General Clark authorized a dozen or so FBI men to check on

Ragen's facts. A couple of weeks later they reported that they were true. They also reported that control of the underworld reached into very high places. Some of the rulers of the underworld had become supposedly respected businessmen and politicians whose names were household words in Chicago. Some of them, it was stated, had reformed. Yet they still controlled the mob....

4863227969_c20f953bc1_b.jpg

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=joh...=1&ie=UTF-8

People

Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Aug 11, 1969

John J. Crown, vice president of Henry Crown & Co. and a partner in the law firm of Jenner & Block, was elected a director of the...

OBITUARIES - Lake Zurich Courier (IL) | HighBeam Research - FREE trial

Pay-Per-View - Lake Zurich Courier - NewsBank - Mar 13, 1997

Former Judge John J Crown died March 3 1997 in Palo Alto Calif Funeral services ... Court Justice Tom Clark from 1956 to 1959 He began working at Jenner and ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=7n_sF3PSvSAC&pg=PA96&dq=two+of+jenner's+references+were+mentioned+by+name&cd=1

The Kennedy assassination cover-up‎ - Page 96Donald Gibson - History - 2000 - 306 pages

4287502320_6f0951e05d.jpg

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50717F83E590C748CDDAB0994DE484D81

THE ORDEAL OF LESTER CROWN - Free Preview - The New York Times

New York Times - Dec 7, 1986

...Meanwhile, seven officers and employees of Material Service were padding their expense accounts -''at the direction of Crown,'' according to the Government report - and reimbursing their boss. The project was cut short when Material Service was subpoenaed by a Federal grand jury investigating corruption in the industry.

The family turned to Albert E. Jenner Jr., a lawyer and longtime friend who is on the board of General Dynamics. ''Whenever the kids got into trouble,'' Jenner says, ''they never bothered the old man. They talked to me, and I got them out of trouble.'' In return for his cooperation with the grand jury, Lester Crown was granted immunity from prosecution.....

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22Fred+Evans+was+regarded+by+manv+authorities+as+the+%27fi-%22&btnG=Search+Archives&ned=us&hl=en&scoring=a

Knowland Hits Ziffren Link to Gang Figures

Los Angeles Times - ProQuest Archiver - Oct 17, 1958

Fred Evans was regarded by manv authorities as the 'fi- nancial brains' of the Capone gang. "Yesterday I stated that Mr. Ziffren should give an- swers

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=who+at+times+included+Ziffren,+Bazelon+and+Jake+Arvey.+Some+of+the+properties+were

Captive city

Ovid Demaris - 1969 - 366 pages - Snippet view

who at times included Ziffren, Bazelon and Jake Arvey. Some of the properties were the Franklin Hotel in Chicago, ... that listed with Ziffren on the hotel's liquor license was the wife of Fred Evans, the late partner of Humphreys and Glimco...

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=earl+warren+Ken+Ziffren,+son+Paul&cf=all

SON OF LAW FIRM'S SENIOR PARTNER WED

Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - ProQuest Archiver - May 18, 1970

... Mrs Stanley Ko ganCathy Brock to Ken neth Ziffren son of Paul Ziffren senior ... a law clerk to f o r m e r Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren in 1965.

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=hilton+Virginia+Warren&btnG=Search+Archives&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Miami News - Google News Archive - Jan 26, 1956

whether pretty and popular Virginia Warren, the Chief Justice's daughter, may marry her most attentive escort. Conrad Hilton . Which would make her Nicky ...

http://books.google.com/books?q=crown+QUIT...nG=Search+Books

The Empire State Building: The Making of a Landmark? - Page 347

by John Tauranac - Travel - 1995 - 384 pages

Escorted by Colonel Crown and his wife, the couple was introduced to the Empire

... and, quite inexplicably, to Miss Virginia Warren, daughter of Chief ...

"...The building got it's money's worth in free publicity. The

queen said the view was "the most beautiful thing" she had ever

seen. She and Prince Philip were then guests at a reception in

the executive lounge. Escorted by Colonel (Henry) Crown and

his wife, the couple was introduced to the Empire State Building

directors and their wives, and QUITE INEXPLICABLY, to MISS VIRGINIA WARREN,

daughter of Chief Justice Earl Warren..."

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=C...nG=Search+Books

The silver spade: the Conrad Hilton story? - Page xx

by Whitney Bolton - 1954 - 230 pages

"... he attended the opening of the Supreme Court, escorting Virginia Warren, daughter of the Chief Justice Earl Warren. Hilton is an old friend of Warren...."

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=C...nG=Search+Books

Saturday Review?

by Bernard Augustine De Voto - American literature - 1958

Page 34

Conrad Hilton came in with Virginia Warren, daughter of the Chief Justice of the

United States, on his arm. And later, limbo dancers from Trinidad showed ...

No preview available - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

Pleasure Island: Tourism and Temptation in Cuba? - Page 191

by Rosalie Schwartz - History - 1997 - 247 pages

Conrad Hilton brought his own bodyguard, as did Virginia Warren, daughter of the

US chief justice. A trio of uniformed guards accompanied the Hollywood ...

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=hil...r=&ie=UTF-8

WALDORF MARKS 25 YEARS AT SITE; Dances, Menus From Past and Noted...

- New York Times - Sep 29, 1956

Guests of Mr. Hilton were Mr.and Mrs. Edward L. Buckley,Mr. and Mrs. Dean Carpenterand Miss Virginia Warren. At the table of Mr. and Mrs.Joseph P. Binns ...

AIRLINER TURNS BACK; Hilton Party on Plane Included Mrs. Warren and...

- New York Times - Nov 29, 1958

Hilton. The plane s passengers included Mrs. Earl Warren, I wife of the Chief Justice of the IUnited States, their.daug]ter, !Virginia, and a number of ...

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=con...Search+Archives

Taking Account of Henry Crown; SPOTLIGHT Taking Account of the Crowns

- New York Times - Dec 12, 1976

Henry Crown was one of seven children of an immigrant salesman. ... Corporation, a result of helping Conrad N. Hilton found that company and of providing ...

Related web pages

Personality: A Colonel Upholds Autonomy; Henry Crown Heads a General...

- New York Times - Feb 21, 1960

Henry Crown of Chicago's Material Service Corporation is a man who ... Next to Conrad Hilton, he is the second largest stock-! holder in the Hilton Hotels. ...

http://books.google.com/books?sjid=lX4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=7273,4964574&dq=webb+crown+sam+joseph&hl=en&sa=N&tab=np&q=arvey%20hoy%20bank

Captive city - Page 230

Ovid Demaris - Social Science - 1969 - 366 pages

While Crown hobnobbed with Mike Igoe, Sam Nanini, Jake Arvey, ... and other old-

time cronies, Hoy made the nightclub scene with Sidney and Marshall Korshak, ...

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=louis+campagna+signed+by+S.+Nanini%2C+president+and+treasurer.&btnG=Search+Books

Investigation as to the manner ... the Board of Parole is operating and ...‎ - Page 182

United States. Congress. House. Comm. on Expenditures in the Executive Departments - 1948 - 938 pages

... Kans., signed by S. Nanini, president and treasurer. Rock Road Construction

Co., Chicago, 111., re recommendation for parole of Louis Campagna. 9-g. ...

http://www.google.com/archivesearch?q=arrowhead+zerilli+kirkeby+crown

Arizona ..Complex Screen Hid 30 Years Of Dealings .

Milwaukee Journal - Google News Archive - Mar 18, 1977

Webb In the same way that financier Kirkeby helped the Zerilli group Crown put up most of the cash required for Webb to buy the ranch ...

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=crown+ranch+robert+goldwater&btnG=Search&um=1&ned=us&hl=en&scoring=a

Ex- Yankees Owner Linked To Mobsters .

Eugene Register-Guard - Google News Archive - Mar 19, 1977

But he sprawling Arrowhead Ranches once owned by Webb in Arizona, ... Kirkeby paid the Zerilli combine almost double the per acre price that Zerilli had ... Arizona ..Complex Screen Hid 30 Years Of Dealings... - Milwaukee Journal - Google News Archive

Arizona ..Complex Screen Hid 30 Years Of Dealings .

Milwaukee Journal - Google News Archive - Mar 19, 1977

Webb and Crown sold the ranch in 1966 to a partner ship of Robert Goldwater and the late Joseph Martori. Again, there was a separate transaction with ... Arizona Probe Links Del Webb, Mobsters . - Modesto Bee - Google News Archive

Ex- Yankees Owner Linked To Mobsters . - Eugene Register-Guard - Google News Archive

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David Von Pein or anyone....

Please provide us, on this thread and in your next post, Oswald's movements from 11:45 thru 12:30.

I am making the assumptions that

1 - Oswald killed JFK

2 - Oswald did it alone, completely, with no outside assistance whatsoever

You are the prosecutor and have to present the evidence that Oswald did all these things beyond a reasonable doubt:

  1. Bought the rifle
  2. Bought ammo and the clip
  3. Practiced at a shooting range while supposedly at work
  4. Made the paper bag
  5. Dissassembled the rifle
  6. Brought a 42" bag with a dissassembled rifle in it out of the Paine house and put it into Frazier's car
  7. Brought the bag and rifle into the Building
  8. Placed the bag and rifle on the 6th floor
  9. Knew when the motorcade was arriving
  10. Knew when the limo would be passing the TSBD
  11. Got up to the 6th floor for the last time (KEY MOMENT--- WHEN DOES THIS OCCUR???)
  12. Built the Sniper's lair from boxes leaving only one fingerprint and one palm print - without being seen
  13. Assempled the rifle - without being seen - loading a half empty clip
  14. Sight/align the scope without taking a shot.. which was attached to a dissassembled rifle part and banging around in the paper bag
  15. Build the rifle rest, also without leaving fingerprints
  16. Not be seen by any of the people seen on the 5th/6th floors during this time (testimony readily available)
  17. Shoot three times, hitting twice when even the WCR cannot determine how he was able to shoot 3 times in that amount of time
  18. Stand at the window afterward, long enough to be seen and possibly even photographed
  19. Move the boxes between the Dillard and Powel photos
  20. Hide the rifle under boxes yet again without leaving any fingerprints
  21. Get to the 2nd Floor lunchroom without being seen
  22. Be seen thru a window in a door looking into yet another doorway...by a running policeman, who does not mention the encounter at all in his signed and sworn affidavit written that afternoon with Oswald at the same station
  23. Oswald leaves the 2nd floor lunchroom
  24. Oswald speaks to a policeman and others(?) before leaving the TSBD

We will deal with AFTER that once this timeline has been established.

He wasn't wearing that coat, he wasn't on the stairs, he's 140 not 165 pounds - at least according to this application - looks like his writing....

For our purposes we have to assume that Oswald WAS NOT being used or set up so no one else would have filled this out... only Oswald... you suppose he knows how much he weights?

12:44 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) "About 30, 5'10", 165 pounds."

Not sure DVP, but that's not sounding like Oswald....

And Brennan seems to be describing the same person Sawyer and Baker saw.... just not Oswald.

Which was why, at the end of it all Brennan does NOT make an identification of Oswald. Never did.

I want to believe you DVP... I want to understand your position and incorporate into my understanding the possibility we are all wrong.

But you have to help me out a bit - as important as it is to check the CTers references and sources, the same is true with your info or any info offered to support what I am asking above.

If you or anyone is simply going to shout out answers to the above scenario without reference to the supporting evidence, please don't waste our time. I have shown here that there are definite steps the Lone Nut Oswald would have had to go thru to be where he was when you, the WCR et al. say he was....

If you can provide a post to this effect, I believe you will find many of us scratching our heads in wonder about how we could have been so wrong about Oswald's guilt.

Thanks

DJ

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Nice list there David.

Boy Baker's first day affidavit is really something isn't it?

Yeah quite a lot for Oswald to do and what puzzles me is how/why Truly backs the revised WC testimony story....

... and one thing stranger is Seymour Weitzman's "Mauser 7.65" affidavit written the next day, after all the confusion about the rifle(s) found, he still signs his name to it.

One more fun "TIMING" anomolie is the reporting of Oswald missing by Truly to Fritz via Lumpkin and the finding of "rifle(s)" and where they may have been found. There are NUMEROUS referneces to the rifle and hulls being found on the 5th floor, as Truly eludes to as you will see...

After confirming his running up with Baker, the Oswald lunchroom incident, on up to the roof and back down.....

Mr. BELIN. And then you got down eventually to the first floor?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?

Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is hard to say.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?

Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.

Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.

There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.

So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.

First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.

Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?

Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.

So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?

Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?

Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information?

Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over here "I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell Captain Fritz."

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".

So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened

Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect.

And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it.

And I went back downstairs in a few minutes.

Mr. DULLES. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You did not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't know whether it means anything, but this is the name."

Representative FORD. Do you know about what time that was that you told the police?

Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15 minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department. Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later.

The problem here is even if it was a full 30 mins after the shots, this is only 1:00.

Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address.

Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found.

Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I might have that here. I don't think I have that time.

and then back to Truly - and this is where it gets strange... BALL know the rifle was found at 1:22 "officially". Tippit was killed a few minutes before 1:16pm "officially"

This testimony suggests to me that "A" rifle was found earlier than "THE" rifle...

Mr. BALL. Now, you recall that in your testimony before the Commission you told them that at some time after the shooting, you advised Captain Fritz of the name of Lee Oswald and his address in Irving?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. And in order to place the time of it, was it before or after the rifle had been found on the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. I wouldn't know. I think it must have been around the rifle was found, because I was not on the sixth floor at that time, but when told--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--I told Chief Lumpkin a good many minutes after we came down from the roof and he went ahead and gave some orders to two or three policemen surrounding him and then said, "Let's go up and tell Captain Fritz."

Mr. BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from the roof of the building?

Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It my not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.

Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?

Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.

Mr. BALL. But walking which way?

Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston Street, east on Elm.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?

Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"?

Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes.

Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom?

Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom.

Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said "No."

Mr. BALL. Now, you told Chief Lumpkin that there was a man missing?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; and he said, "Let's go tell Captain Fritz." Well, I didn't know where Captain Fritz was.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell Chief Lumpkin the man was missing before or after you called to the warehouse and got the name?

Mr. TRULY. No, I called the warehouse beforehand.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to any police officer before you called the warehouse and got the address?

Mr. TRULY. Not that I remember.

Mr. BALL. You did that on your own without instructions?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. So, when you talked to Chief Lumpkin, you at that time had in your possession there the address of Lee Oswald in Irving?

Mr. TRULY. That's right, I had scribbled it down on a piece of map or something so I would remember it.

Mr. BALL. That is the address that he had put on his application form for employment?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And did you know of any other address

Mr. TRULY. I didn't know of any other address at all.

Mr. BALL. Of Lee Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. I supposed that's where he was living.

Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle.

Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time?

Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building?

Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building.

Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found?

Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz?

Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there?

Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me.

Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found?

Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from----

Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only.

Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it. DJ:Wasn't there an awful lot of commotion going on about the rifle when found?... dusting, ejecting, looking, examining, etc... Truly tells Fritz at the spot the rifle was found about Oswald yet does not see the rifle? Read on....

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found?

Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards.

Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me?

Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.

While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was.

Mr. BALL. About that time?

Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there.

Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address?

Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes.

Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?

Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.

Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?

Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1.

Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?

Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory.

Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so.

Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate?

Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.

Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address?

Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately.

Mr. BALL. Immediately?

Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time.

Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Not over that?

Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this."

Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been.

Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been I or 1:05 or something like that.

Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn't among the other workers.

Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. That's when you were with Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you heard that Tippit had been shot, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. Not after--until after I had told Chief Lumpkin and Captain Fritz and come back down to the first floor, then I learned that he had been shot. The first I learned of it--there was a young officer ran in the front door and told another officer, possibly a lieutenant, that there was an officer shot in Oak Cliff and that was all I knew at that time. I did not know that they had captured Oswald then. Later on a newspaper reporter told me.

Obviously we cannot timestamp these things other than the official records...

The way this reads we have Fritz finding "A" rifle, Truly telling him about Owsald and then Fritz learning about Tippit. Fritz did not return to the TSBD until just before 1pm

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Have you ever seen the sensational picture thread over at Lancer which seems to show a Second Oswald outside the TSBD right after the assassination?

I don't know if it was Robin Unger who had those photos or if its still up, but Debra Conway commented that it was really spooky to see that. Especially since the WR says it ain't Oswald.

Factor that in with Roger Craig's testimony and the photos corresponding to that incident as garnered by Anna Marie Kuhns Walko, and you really have to think that maybe John Armstrong is on to something.

Here is that photo that may be Oswald chatting after the assassination... yet this is a piece of one of the 3 tramps photos which was quite a time after the assassination, right?

Since Oswald was never on the Bus... and the Oswald Craig sees gets into a car, corroborated specifically by Oswald himself with his "you leave the Paine's car out of this" comment... it leaves a small probability this is still Oswald... imo.

We have an Oswald entering the Theater at 1:05 - there's a good chance this is the same Oswald that first goes home, changes and leaves - or is it?? He must have had transportation to get to the Theater so quickly... but I must think that the fake police car that honks while Oswald is there may have actually taken this Oswald to the Theater, or near by.... thinking out loud here.

So if the 1:05 Oswald is the real Oswald how did he get there so fast...?

If not the real Oswald then we have an Oswald entering his room and leaving by 1:03... and walking over to the Texas Theater in 30 minutes... and because we have the Tippit incident occuring during this time the only routes reviewed lead to Tippit rather than the Theater.

Puts the Tippit murder in a bit of a different light, no? An Eyewitness places Oswald somewhere else at the time of Tippit's murder.

Isn't that what reasonable doubt is all about??

From David Wood II's timeline:

1:35 PM (Nov. 22, 1963) A man is noticed slipping into The Texas Theater at 231 W. Jefferson.

Concession stand operator, Butch Burroughs says that it could not have been Oswald because Oswald entered the

theater shortly after 1 PM. If this testimony is correct, Oswald could not have shot officer J.D. Tippit. Julia Postal,

the theatre cashier, has been alerted to the fact that LHO slipped into the theatre without paying. Postal

has been informed of LHO’s presence in the theatre by Johnny Calvin Brewer, the manager of nearby

Hardy’s Shoe Shop. He is twenty-three years old and noticed LHO seemingly attempting to duck out of

sight of police cars as they passed by on the street. Brewer claims that he sees a man standing in the

lobby of his shoe store at about 1:30 PM. He watches the man walk west on Jefferson and thinks (Brewer

says he is not positive) that he ducks into the Texas Theater. It is not until December 6th, two weeks after

Lee Harvey Oswald's arrest, that Brewer describes the man he saw as wearing a brown shirt. He asks

theater cashier Julia Postal if she has sold the man a ticket. Postal replies "she did not think so, but she had

been listening to the radio and did not remember." She does remember, when testifying before the Warren

Commission, that she sold 24 tickets that day.

Need to run, but there's more to this timeline... and now we can expand it to beyond 12:31:30 to 1:50 and the 2 Oswalds being escorted out of the Theater... front and back.

DJ

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Haven't the time right now to review the entire thread, but can I ask if this is what is being put forward?

12 noon -- invitees to arrive (per invitation)

12:15 pm -- JFK to arrive (per Lawson)

12:30 pm - lunch commences (per WC and other sources)

---------------------------------------------

Can someone confirm or correct the above?

If so, does it mean the motorcade should have passed the TSBD at about 12:10 pm?

If all the above is true, it adds GREAT weight to a seemingly remarkably prescient Californian....

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Haven't the time right now to review the entire thread, but can I ask if this is what is being put forward?

12 noon -- invitees to arrive (per invitation)

12:15 pm -- JFK to arrive (per Lawson)

12:30 pm - lunch commences (per WC and other sources)

---------------------------------------------

Can someone confirm or correct the above?

If so, does it mean the motorcade should have passed the TSBD at about 12:10 pm?

If all the above is true, it adds GREAT weight to a seemingly remarkably prescient Californian....

Greg... You might want to start at the beginnign of this thread... those questions are addressed in my first post.

CE exhibits 1362, 63, 64 are Dallas Morning News about the route and luncheon

Arrival at Love field at 11:30... Luncheon to START at 12:30.

VIP Invite says 12 noon - I believe I had confirmation of this being an actual invitation by GMack... I'd have to go check emails though.

The real question is "What does the Lone Nut Oswald know and what is his plan?"

If the even is panned to start at 12:30... as all announcements in the papers confirm...

Why is he still sitting in the lunchroom at 12:15?

Who are the people Rowland sees in the WEST window at the same time?

When does he reassemble the rifle and confirm alignment of the scope?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0488b.htm

Mr. SPECTER - Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND - This was 12:15.

Mr. SPECTER - All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?

Mr. ROWLAND - We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle, This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.

We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?

Mr. ROWLAND - This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.

Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.

It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. SPECTER - All right.

Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER - What is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open?

Mr. ROWLAND - To the fullest extent that they could be opened.

Mr. SPECTER - What extent would that be?

Mr. ROWLAND - Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window.

Mr. SPECTER - Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - In which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND - It was through the window to my right.

Mr. SPECTER - Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please.

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Haven't the time right now to review the entire thread, but can I ask if this is what is being put forward?

12 noon -- invitees to arrive (per invitation)

12:15 pm -- JFK to arrive (per Lawson)

12:30 pm - lunch commences (per WC and other sources)

---------------------------------------------

Can someone confirm or correct the above?

If so, does it mean the motorcade should have passed the TSBD at about 12:10 pm?

If all the above is true, it adds GREAT weight to a seemingly remarkably prescient Californian....

Greg... You might want to start at the beginnign of this thread... those questions are addressed in my first post.

CE exhibits 1362, 63, 64 are Dallas Morning News about the route and luncheon

Arrival at Love field at 11:30... Luncheon to START at 12:30.

VIP Invite says 12 noon - I believe I had confirmation of this being an actual invitation by GMack... I'd have to go check emails though.

The real question is "What does the Lone Nut Oswald know and what is his plan?"

If the even is panned to start at 12:30... as all announcements in the papers confirm...

Why is he still sitting in the lunchroom at 12:15?

Who are the people Rowland sees in the WEST window at the same time?

When does he reassemble the rifle and confirm alignment of the scope?

http://www.history-m...Vol16_0488b.htm

Mr. SPECTER - Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND - This was 12:15.

Mr. SPECTER - All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?

Mr. ROWLAND - We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle, This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.

We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?

Mr. ROWLAND - This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.

Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.

It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. SPECTER - All right.

Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER - What is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open?

Mr. ROWLAND - To the fullest extent that they could be opened.

Mr. SPECTER - What extent would that be?

Mr. ROWLAND - Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window.

Mr. SPECTER - Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - In which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND - It was through the window to my right.

Mr. SPECTER - Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please.

Thanks David,

Sorry, but I really am pushed time wise right now.

Can you confirm JFK's arrival time at Trade Mart was set for 12:15 and that this would mean going past the TSBD at 12:10. (I understand where you're coming from and it is important, but I'm looking at a different angle, though probably connected) . Was the 12:15 arrival time for JFK public knowledge?

Those are important questions to me, so any help appreciated.

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