Zapruder throat shot BEFORE JFK goes behind the Stemmons sign circa frames Z194 to Z201

[Guest Duncan MacRae]

Recently on this Forum, I was convinced that David Von Pein, and others were correct in their conclusion that the throat shot occurred at Z224, my reason being, like everyone else who believed this over the years, that I thought that Z224 was the first visible sign of a physical hit reaction by Kennedy.

I argued with Jim DiEugenion that the shot could not have happened earlier.

Further close up study of the Zapruder appears to me to prove that Jim DiEugenio is correct, and that everybody else, including me, was wrong.

I don't think the shot can be pinpointed exactly to a specific frame number due to the blur factor, but somewhere between Z194 and Z201 would be a goood estimate, IMO.

The obvious and clearest visible physical reaction by Kennedy to the hit, can best be seen between frames Z204 and Z207.

For me now, there is no boubt that Kennedy was hit before he vanished behing the Stemmons sign.

I have made this video to illustrate the points that I have made above. I suggest watching over and over again.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Duncan MacRae

[David Von Pein]

Duncan,

I see no signs of JFK reacting to being shot as early as the Z190s. None at all. Kennedy is merely lowering his right arm from his last wave to the crowd--a wave he continues to LOWER all the way through Z225.

So, Duncan, how can you reconcile the very LOW placement of JFK's hands as late as Z225, if he'd been hit way back at Z194 or so? And then we see JFK rapidly move his arms upward toward his throat only after Z225. This doesn't add up.

But a Z224 shot DOES add up--all the way around. It would explain why Kennedy only begins his ARM RAISING at Z226.

Yes, I know the difference between Z194 and Z224 is less than 2 seconds in real time, but I still maintain Z190 is too early for JFK to be hit, given his arm movement at Z226 and up.

BTW, when you say "throat shot", are you implying that that shot came from the front? Surely not, eh Duncan?

Edited August 5, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

You can't say that he [JFK] positively with complete certainty, continues to lower his hand all the way through from frame 207 to frame 226, for the simple reason that frames 207 to 223 do not show Kennedy's arm, it's hidden by the Stemmons sign. This is almost a full second of time, enough time for another hidden by the Stemmons sign hand/arm raising reaction to have taken place before we can see it starting to rise at Z225/226.

Huh?!

You're going to have to walk me through your "arm-raising" theory, Duncan. Because you've lost me on this one.

It seems to me that what you're implying is something like this:

1.) JFK has his right hand in a fairly "high" position at Z194.

2.) He's then shot at about Z194.

3.) He then lowers his hands/arms a little bit following Z194. (Do you think he moved his hands to the "pain point" near his neck/throat around Z194-Z201?)

4.) JFK then lowers his hands some more--to the place where we find them at Z224-Z225 when he reappears from behind the Stemmons sign (and his left hand is very low, btw; certainly nowhere near his throat/neck region).

5.) And then he raises his hands/arms to the "pain point" near his throat, starting at Z226.

I'm pretty sure you're not actually advocating such a ludicrous theory as I've just laid out above, but in lieu of the above 5-point "arm-raising" scenario, I'm totally lost when it comes to how anyone can think JFK's right hand/arm can be THAT HIGH at Z194 and THAT LOW at Z225 if he was hit back at circa Z194.

~large-sized shrug~

Re: The throat shot coming from the front. Yes, of course it came from the front, from Umbrella man firing an ice dart to paralyse JFK in to perfect positioning for the head shot from the storm drain. Everyone knows this, David.

Oh, yes! I forgot! (Silly me.)

But you forgot one important detail here, Duncan -- the gunman who was concealing himself in the fake tree on the Knoll.

Then, too, perhaps "Tree Man" was shooting at the same time as "Sewer Man".

Edited August 5, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

What i'm speculating, not implying, is simple to understand. That between Z207 and Z223, where he is hidden by the sign, Kennedy could have completed the exact same reaction that we see in Z225/226, ie, he might have had a double involuntary neurological reaction, two reactions, the first reaction taking place when he is hidden behind the sign, and the second reaction starting at Z225. It's not outside the realms of possibility. Pretty simple theory, Eh?!

Oh, for Pete sake. How silly.

[Dean Hagerman]

I see no signs of JFK reacting to being shot as early as the Z190s. None at all.

So is this what its like to see through the eyes of a LNer?

[Cliff Varnell]

So, Duncan, how can you reconcile the very LOW placement of JFK's hands as late as Z225, if he'd been hit way back at Z194 or so? And then we see JFK rapidly move his arms upward toward his throat only after Z225. This doesn't add up.

Nonsense. Even Dale Myers animation shows JFK's right hand moving toward his throat

area before Z224.

[David Josephs]

IMO you are confusing the reaction to the back shot with the reaction to the throat.

If Duncan is correct and it was the umbrella dart... (which I have a tough time believing based on what the Perry says about the trach... the damage was to JFK's right side... the umbrella man shooting from JFK's right, from right to left, would not create damage to the right of JFK's neck but the left)... or some other kind of CIA "new" weapon... it was designed to enter with minimal pain or notice.

Problem is there are very few other places that shot could have come from unless from the Overpass or a second GK shooter.

What about the theory that says the throat shot was indeed when Duncan places it and is minorly in vasive yet extremely paralyzing as intended.

Seems that JFK hardly moves at all after that shot EXCEPT for 221-224 when he is shot in the back, is thrown somehwat forward and his elbows raise up.

Looking at his reaction as he emerges from the sign, he is in distress and his hands are starting to react.

I think the back shot occurs just before he emerges, pushes him forward and we see the reaction we see.

2 seperate shots with confused reactions about the throat shot.

DJ

edit: not sure why the gif is not rolling... will try to post again - DJ

edit #2 - guess you have to click on it to see it... thought they just ran...

Edited August 5, 2010 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

If Duncan is correct and it was the umbrella dart

David, Just for the record, my reply was tongue in cheek. I was joking about the Umbrella dart and the storm drain garbage. I was giving a ridiculous answer to a ridiculous suggestion.

My bad... never know anymore.

Point still remains valid though I believe...

the throat shot was tiny and imo very much designed to keep him still... boggles the mind that Jackie did not pull him down after they emerge from the sign.

Maybe she couldn't between the back-brace and the 2 shots. Kind of strange, if a set-up, to wait so long between 224 and 313 in the hopes he'd still be upright... quite a gamble don't you think - given how important it was for him to be killed in before he left Dallas - depending on your view as to who was behind it.

that is unless we believe in the connally shot and a missed head shot (as a result of the back wound pushing him out of the way. Then there is the manhole cover shot and the Tague shot that also miss... so I may have mispoke.

DJ

[Cliff Varnell]

IMO you are confusing the reaction to the back shot with the reaction to the throat.

If Duncan is correct and it was the umbrella dart... (which I have a tough time believing based on what the Perry says about the trach... the damage was to JFK's right side... the umbrella man shooting from JFK's right, from right to left, would not create damage to the right of JFK's neck but the left)... or some other kind of CIA "new" weapon... it was designed to enter with minimal pain or notice.

Problem is there are very few other places that shot could have come from unless from the Overpass or a second GK shooter.

Umbrella dart, no.

Blood soluble flechette fired circa Z190 by Black Dog Man from behind the short concrete wall in front of the picket fence, yes.

This is arguably the most likely scenario.

[Dean Hagerman]

This is arguably the most likely scenario.

I dont think so Cliff

I will believe a shot around Z190 (or a little after) from the front, but not a blood soluble flechette from the BDM position

[David Josephs]

IMO you are confusing the reaction to the back shot with the reaction to the throat.

If Duncan is correct and it was the umbrella dart... (which I have a tough time believing based on what the Perry says about the trach... the damage was to JFK's right side... the umbrella man shooting from JFK's right, from right to left, would not create damage to the right of JFK's neck but the left)... or some other kind of CIA "new" weapon... it was designed to enter with minimal pain or notice.

Problem is there are very few other places that shot could have come from unless from the Overpass or a second GK shooter.

Umbrella dart, no.

Blood soluble flechette fired circa Z190 by Black Dog Man from behind the short concrete wall in front of the picket fence, yes.

This is arguably the most likely scenario.

I like the flechette concept.. the BDM origination is a problem for me.

Beztner, which was very close to when this shot would have been taken makes it hard to reconcile someone just standing out in the open firing a weapon.

Regardless of what Hudson says I still hold to the idea that BDM was possibly Hudson since he says he walked from the Tool shed to his spot on the steps which gives him the opportunity to walk right past that spot. I realize he says he was sitting there and just stood up when the limo came but I simply do not see him in this image of willis 5. BDM cannot be GArnold either imo as the placement is wrong and the darkness of his appearance is hard to reconcile with the supposed lightness of Arnold's uniform and the fact he was much further back closer to the picket fence (if there at all)

In addition, we feel pretty confident that there were shooters behind the fence... no way a member of that team puts himself between the shooters and JFK.

IMO the throat shot was either from the badgeman position or from the overpass's southern side.

Yet would still like to hear thoughts about the reaction we see at 223/224... I still contend this is from the back wound and NOT the throat at all.

the Elbows wouldn't fly out nor would he lunge forward from a tiny throat entrance... the back shot has a direct response to that effect.

DJ

[Dean Hagerman]

And before anyone says dont you believe the film was altered?

I do, but not in the way that the entire film was fabricated

I believe that for sure the limo turn was taken out, the limo stop was taken out, the head shot was altered, along with some other minor alterations

The footage we see of the limo occupants was the film that Zappy shot (sans the head shot)

So I believe that we can watch the Z-film for the timing of the first shot

I think Duncan is correct

I think JFK is reacting to a shot from the front that hit him in the throat

[Ron Ecker]

I was joking about the Umbrella dart and the storm drain garbage.

Neither idea is garbage, considering the facts that the CIA possessed such an umbrella weapon in 1963 (and I assume it was developed to be used), and a shot from the storm drain by the overpass (not from the storm drain in the curb, due to the angle) is certainly possible.

[Robert Harris]

Recently on this Forum, I was convinced that David Von Pein, and others were correct in their conclusion that the throat shot occurred at Z224, my reason being, like everyone else who believed this over the years, that I thought that Z224 was the first visible sign of a physical hit reaction by Kennedy.

I argued with Jim DiEugenion that the shot could not have happened earlier.

Further close up study of the Zapruder appears to me to prove that Jim DiEugenio is correct, and that everybody else, including me, was wrong.

I don't think the shot can be pinpointed exactly to a specific frame number due to the blur factor, but somewhere between Z194 and Z201 would be a goood estimate, IMO.

The obvious and clearest visible physical reaction by Kennedy to the hit, can best be seen between frames Z204 and Z207.

For me now, there is no boubt that Kennedy was hit before he vanished behing the Stemmons sign.

I have made this video to illustrate the points that I have made above. I suggest watching over and over again.

It makes no sense that he was hit in the neck prior to 223. Look closely at JFK at 193. He has spun to his right and is clearly shielding his face with his right hand, which suggests that he was spattered by debris from a shot that struck the pavement to his right, generating the "sparks" that were seen then. THAT is what he was reacting to.

There was no plausible exit point for an entry wound in the neck and a rising trajectory exiting at the back wound makes no sense at all at that point during the attack.

[Cliff Varnell]

This is arguably the most likely scenario.

I dont think so Cliff

I will believe a shot around Z190 (or a little after) from the front, but not a blood soluble flechette from the BDM position

Hi Dean,

This scenario matches the neck x-ray perfectly: bruised lung tip, hairline fracture of

the right T1 transverse process, subcutaneous air pocket overlaying C7 and T1. There

was no exit and no round recovered. Same thing with the back wound -- shallow, no exit,

no round was recovered.

This scenario also matches the testimony of Rosemary Willis, who described BDM as a "conspicuous" person who happened to "disappear the next instant." The HSCA photography panel examined Willis #5, taken a split second after the throat shot, and observed a "distinct straight-line feature" which was "near the region of the hands."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol12/html/HSCA_Vol12_0006a.htm

This scenario was first put forth by the prosectors themselves at the end of the autopsy.

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's sworn affidavit:

(quote on)

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general

feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning

the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic]

bullet, one which dissolves after contact.

(quote off)

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's sworn affidavit:

(quote on)

The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused

by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments

completely....Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I

left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic]

Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that

would almost completely fragmentize (sic).

(quote off)

Edited August 5, 2010 by Cliff Varnell