A Recurring Thought Of Mine

[Mark Knight]

In all my reading and researching related to the JFK assassination, perhaps the most persistent question in the back of my mind is, "Why a Mannlicher-Carcano?" But them I have to consider the mindset of the American people. A "true" Texas assassin would've used a Winchester, while a "true" hunter would've used a Remington, Savage, or another American-made rifle. But then the public backlash factor would've kicked in--as it did against the city of Dallas--and the manufacturer of the rifle might have been bankrupted, due to the stigma of their weapon being the gun that killed JFK.

So the next logical move--if this was a part of the strategy--would be to put the stigma on a foreign-made rifle...but which one? The Mauser and the British Enfield were very popular guns to "sporterize" as hunting rifles, and to allow that stigma to settle on such populat rifles would invariably cause the market value to plummet drastically. But by choosing the lowly Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5mm rifle, all the "popular" brands are saved the shame of being the assassination weapon, and values continue to appreciate, and no US rifle manufacturer goes bankrupt. THINK ABOUT IT. In this light, the Mannlicher-Carcano is about the ONLY rifle that fits ALL the requirements: not of US manufacture, not a popular hunting rifle--not even a popular sporting caliber--yet in the right hands, accurate enough to make the shots at under 100 yards that are ascribed to it on that day. [Not going into the time frame for the shots, or the shooting abilities of the alleged assassin; just stating that the RIFLE was capable of making the shots at that range...especially if the shooter was left-eye dominant.]

So if there's EVER been a well-thought-out part of the JFK assassination, the plan to use [or to plant,if that's your position] the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5mm rifle was it. And I seriously doubt that Oswald would have considered those factors himself, if he actually was the assassin. SO...if this aspect was that well-planned, and if Oswald didn't take the factors above into account, who did? Other conspirators [or sponsors], perhaps? I just can't believe that the Mannlicher-Carcano being pegged as the murder weapon was a coincidence, nor do I believe that the purchase of a Mannlicher-Carcano by Oswald, rather than a more popular rifle, was simply a coincidence that occurred when he saw a cheap rifle advertised in a magazine. [i mean, LHO could well have bought a used, well-worn American-made rifle from a co-worker and not raised any eyebrows, nor left a paper trail, nor have paid a LOT more than he did--including shipping/handling--for the Mannlicher-Carcano in 1963.] There are simply too many other "coincidences" in the official story to think that this is simply one more, IMHO.

Anyone else follow my line of reasoning here?

Edited September 18, 2010 by Mark Knight

[John Dolva]

Yes.

I've conversely considered the S/W. There were cheaper options in the ad. It was however (afaik) a cutdown ww officer sidearm. What to make of that ?? Oswald was supposed to have choosen the MC because of price.

One thing about the Mauser is that it is such a good weapon that many derivatives have been made over the years. Was the MC based on the Mauser?. , again: anything to make of that ???

a couple more ''oddities'' ?

[Bernice Moore]

HI MARK YES FOLLOWING ALONG, AGREED IT HAD TO BE A FOREIGN MADE WEAPON, HAD THERE BEEN A CHEAP RUSSIAN RIFLE AVAILABLE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN CHOSEN IN THIS CASE I THINK ANYTHING FOREIGN SOUNDING WOULD FILL THE BILL AT THE TIME AS HIS HISTORY WITH GOING TO RUSSIA AND OF COURSE TRYING TO MANIPULATE TO GET THE THOUGHTS OUT THERE TO BLAME CASTRO AND OR THE RUSSIANS RIGHT OFF THE BAT POINTING THE FINGER AT ANYONE ELSE, WAS THE NAME OF THE GAME I BELIEVE, AND INCLUDING THE THREAT OF WAR THEY USED FROM THE W/H TO BEND THOSE THAT WERE WANTED ON THE COMMISSON, AND THE MEDIA AS WELL, TO SAVE THE MILLIONS OF DEATHS IF IT LED TO SUCH AND THERE WAS WAR, WITH RUSSIA......AND SO ON...HE HAD TO BE A LONER..WITH A FOREIGN HISTORY LINK

THOUGHT ALBA'S GARAGE IN N.O WHERE HE SPENT TIME LOOKING AT THE SPORTS MAGAZINES CONTAINING THE RIFLE ADS, WAS FOR THE CIA AND FBI,VEHICLES, JUST WONDERING IF ANY OF THEM ON OCASSION JUST HAPPENED TO JOIN IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT RIFLES AND RECOMMENDED A M/C AFTER ALL, THEY WOULD KNOW WEAPONS....WOULDN'T THEY ?HE MIGHT THINK , AS THEY WERE IN THE CIA OR FBI, AND THE WEED WAS PLANTED...?? IF ONE BELIEVES HE ORDERED AND BOUGHT THE RIFLE THAT IS ...THANKS TAKE CARE B. PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS THAT TIME OF MARNIN..THANKS..

Edited September 18, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[John Dolva]

Three Mausers and One Terni

FINNISH ARMY 1918 - 1945: RIFLES PART 6

[Mark Knight]

Of course, I also believe that, with the large government purchase order for the 6.5mm ammunition, perhaps Tom Purvis is right...that the "discovery" of the M-C rifle would have someone in high places shouting "INCOMING!!!" and battening a few previously-open hatches somewhere. Ozzie--or whomever--had to have purchased, stolen, or otherwise received some ammuntion for the rifle, and since, in their intricate detailing of Oswald's finances, the WC could never figure out where Oswald purchased any ammunition...perhaps the truth is, he DIDN'T purchase it. Perhaps it was PROVIDED to him.

But then we're back at "conspiracy."

Bernice, thanks for posting that ad. That proves that, had Ozzie wanted to order a sporterized Enfield, it would have been only about $7 more than the Carcano...or the "US Military" rifle in .30-06, a highly prized hunting round, just a few dollars more. Had he been talking to folks in and around Dallas about a good hunting rifle--not mentioning what he was "hunting," of course--I'm pretty sure that 9 out of 10 recommendations would've been for the .30-06 of US manufacture, or the .303 Enfield as not only being multi-purpose and accurate, but having ammunition almost universally available...whereas most folks would have had little or no knowledge of the Carcano, and the oddball [in the US, for sporting purposes] 6.5mm ammunition.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Mark Knight

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In all my reading and researching related to the JFK assassination, perhaps the most persistent question in the back of my mind is, "Why a Mannlicher-Carcano?" But them I have to consider the mindset of the American people. A "true" Texas assassin would've used a Winchester, while a "true" hunter would've used a Remington, Savage, or another American-made rifle. But then the public backlash factor would've kicked in--as it did against the city of Dallas--and the manufacturer of the rifle might have been bankrupted, due to the stigma of their weapon being the gun that killed JFK.

So the next logical move--if this was a part of the strategy--would be to put the stigma on a foreign-made rifle...but which one? The Mauser and the British Enfield were very popular guns to "sporterize" as hunting rifles, and to allow that stigma to settle on such populat rifles would invariably cause the market value to plummet drastically. But by choosing the lowly Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5mm rifle, all the "popular" brands are saved the shame of being the assassination weapon, and values continue to appreciate, and no US rifle manufacturer goes bankrupt. THINK ABOUT IT. In this light, the Mannlicher-Carcano is about the ONLY rifle that fits ALL the requirements: not of US manufacture, not a popular hunting rifle--not even a popular sporting caliber--yet in the right hands, accurate enough to make the shots at under 100 yards that are ascribed to it on that day. [Not going into the time frame for the shots, or the shooting abilities of the alleged assassin; just stating that the RIFLE was capable of making the shots at that range...especially if the shooter was left-eye dominant.]

So if there's EVER been a well-thought-out part of the JFK assassination, the plan to use [or to plant,if that's your position] the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5mm rifle was it. And I seriously doubt that Oswald would have considered those factors himself, if he actually was the assassin. SO...if this aspect was that well-planned, and if Oswald didn't take the factors above into account, who did? Other conspirators [or sponsors], perhaps? I just can't believe that the Mannlicher-Carcano being pegged as the murder weapon was a coincidence, nor do I believe that the purchase of a Mannlicher-Carcano by Oswald, rather than a more popular rifle, was simply a coincidence that occurred when he saw a cheap rifle advertised in a magazine. [i mean, LHO could well have bought a used, well-worn American-made rifle from a co-worker and not raised any eyebrows, nor left a paper trail, nor have paid a LOT more than he did--including shipping/handling--for the Mannlicher-Carcano in 1963.] There are simply too many other "coincidences" in the official story to think that this is simply one more, IMHO.

Anyone else follow my line of reasoning here?

Mark:

Run this one up the flagpole.

1. LHO was being "groomed" through the trip to the Soviet Union to insure that he could get into Cuba, whereas Castro was primarily ejecting all but true supporters of his revolution.

With the "radar" background, as well as the Russian trip, LHO would normally have had little difficulty (from Castro's government) in getting into Cuba. Especially with a Russian wife.

2. The Carcano was a popular weapon of the Cuban Revolution. (If recalled I once posted a photo which showed revolutionaries in Cuba holding these weapons.

These weapons were commonly utilized throughout the Revolution and were readily available in the 6.5mm as well as the 7.35mm versions.

3. Surely you have been to a "BOB" bar! (Bring your own Bottle).

During the Cuban Revolution it was much the same, except that it was a "BOR"/Bring your own Rifle, as many of the revolultionaries brought their own weapons and ammunition.

With this, even after Castro had full control, there were many weapons (too include Carcano's) that were still available to aspiring individuals who wanted to start another revolution against Castro.

4. The Model 91/38 Carcano provided an ideal "training" weapon stateside, as one could readily find the weapon in the 6.5mm as well as 7.35mm version in Cuba.

And, the weapons were, for all practical purposes, exactly the same weapon.

So, if one were proficient with one, then they would be able to operate and fire the other with little or no difference in accuracy.

5. Although the WCC Carcano ammo was available, the 7.35mm Carcano ammo (Italian Manufacture) is, and was quite reliable ammunition as well.

Therefore, whether one ended up with the 6.5mm version with WCC ammo, or the 7.35mm version with the Italian manufacture ammo, they still had a highly reliable weapon system.

6. Do not completely "discard" all of those stories in regards to individuals who were being paid to smuggle into Cuba some 7.35mm Carcano rifles, as well as all of the shooting which transpired around Dallas with similar ammunition.

7. And, since Castro had pretty well clamped down on anyone coming to visit Cuba, who wanted to bring his own Browning; Remington; Colt; etc; etc., then it was best, if one intended to shoot someone while there, to utilize the weapons at hand.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lastly, to date, there is absolutely no way in which one can distinguish whether LHO is holding a Model 38 (7.35mm) Short Rifle, or if he is holding a Model 91/38 (6.5mm) Short Rifle.

All that can be stated as fact is that JFK was assassinated by a 6.5mm Model 91/38 Short Rifle, which weapon was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

[David Josephs]

All that can be stated as fact is that JFK was assassinated by a 6.5mm Model 91/38 Short Rifle, which weapon was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

You had me right up until that one Thomas....

I thought all we can state as fact was that bullet and bullet fragments entered into evidence were traced back to have been fired from one of the weapons found that day... while supposedly found on the 6th floor, there are numerous contridictions to that statement as well - a Mr. Weitzman comes to mind as well as numerous statements by Insp Sawyer.

When those bullets or fragments were fired, where they come from as evidence and where they come from when/where purchased are still big questions.

There were no fragments taken from JFK or Connally that can be traced back to that rifle

In fact, the particle cloud in JFK's skull contradicts this weapon AND this ammunition...

From where do we find this FACT supported?

To Mark's point about the MC - wasn't there discussion of Oswald being involved in a rifle Mail-order sting which was the reason for the alias and the order in the first place? Something tells me there is some twisted back story to the M/C yet again involving spooks messing with each other... just a hunch.

DJ

[Mark Knight]

There have been stories that LHO was connected to Senator Thomas Dodd's committee investigations regarding mail order firearms...but I dont' think anything conclusive has been established from the evidence so far.

And Tom...you're absolutely right that Oswald may have actually been holding a Model 38 instead of a Model 91/38 in the backyard photos. Of course, if LHO had a Model 38 in 7.5 mm, there's no paper trail linking that gun to him. Likewise, there's no evidence that Oswald bought, stole, was given, or otherwise obtained any ammunition for a 7.35 mm rifle...same as there is no evidence that he obtained any 6.5mm ammo.

But obviously, SOMEBODY obtained some 6.5mm ammo, and at least one stripper clip.

Again, Tom, you've got me thinking...and that could be dangerous.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

There have been stories that LHO was connected to Senator Thomas Dodd's committee investigations regarding mail order firearms...but I dont' think anything conclusive has been established from the evidence so far.

And Tom...you're absolutely right that Oswald may have actually been holding a Model 38 instead of a Model 91/38 in the backyard photos. Of course, if LHO had a Model 38 in 7.5 mm, there's no paper trail linking that gun to him. Likewise, there's no evidence that Oswald bought, stole, was given, or otherwise obtained any ammunition for a 7.35 mm rifle...same as there is no evidence that he obtained any 6.5mm ammo.

But obviously, SOMEBODY obtained some 6.5mm ammo, and at least one stripper clip.

Again, Tom, you've got me thinking...and that could be dangerous.

Actually!

It is irresponsible thinking that ultimate becomes "dangerous" and can lead to unsupported as well as erroneous conclusions.

The 7.35mm version of the Model 38 Carcano Short Rifle had been for sale through everything up to and including "Mechanix Illustrated" since the late 50's.

Thousands of these weapons were sold off cheaply as being excellent hunting weapons. Which no doubt leads to why many of this same make/model/caliber weapon ended up in the Cuban revolution.

In fact, this weapon and it's inherent accuracy lead many to believe (erroneously) that the Carcano (whatever make and/or model) was a relatively reliable and accurate weapon.

This, the initial sale of the 7.35mm version of the Short Rifle, more or less "opened the door" for the mass sale of the other makes/models to unsuspecting persons who did not know what a "Model 91/24" (long rifle cut down to carbine length) was, as well as how totally inaccurate this weapon also was.

As to the "clip", the 7.35mm version and the 6.5mm version utilize the exact same clip.

About the only significent difference in the actual weapons is an item that causes confusion when one attempts to "quote" certain aspects.

One model was ZEROED for 200 yards, and one was ZEROED for 300 yards.-----I do not even recall which was which at this point.

Nevertheless, one could practice with either caliber weapon and could thereafter immediately switch to the other caliber, and in reality never suffer any loss of efficiency as the only difference was the actual bore diameter of the barrel and the chamber size to accept the 7.35 round.

From the FBI records, there was a whole lot of target practice shooting of the 7.35mm as well as 6.5mm Carcano that was taking place around Dallas shortly prior to the assassination.

There was also some specific 7.35mm ammo box recovered in New Orleans which was cast off as being of no significance due to it having been the wrong caliber.

So:

1. The 7.35mm as well as the 6.5mm Carcano Short Rifle is an extremely accurate weapon.

2. The Carcano (in various makes, models, & calibers was utilized during the Cuban/Castro revolution.

3. The weapon was readily available in Cuba.

4. The 7.35mm Italian ammo is quite reliable.

5. WCC produced highly reliable 6.5mm Carcano ammunition.

6. If one acquires one make/model and becomes proficient with it, there is virtually no loss of efficiencey should they ultimately end up

with the other make/model. So long as one can count on having the reliable WCC ammo.

7. Cuba had come to "frown" upon one attempting to enter country who was also attempting to "BYOR" (Bring Your Own Rifle).

8. If, one could become proficient with either make/model of the Short Rifle on US soil, this proficiency would hold true for either make/model

if they went to Cuba and were handed either version of the Short Rifle.

====================================================================================================================================================

All of which is speculation!

However, considering LHO's activities, it appears to have considerable supporting evidence that this was what the "CARCANO" was actually all about.

P.S.

"there's no paper trail linking that gun to him. Likewise, there's no evidence that Oswald bought, stole, was given, or otherwise obtained any ammunition for a 7.35 mm rifle...same as there is no evidence that he obtained any 6.5mm ammo."

When one takes into consideration that the 7.35 model (as well as ammo) was sold from as early as 1959, by various firms from East to West Coast, who knows if ole "A.J.Hidell" did or did not order one of these weapons.

That I recall, only "Klein's Sporting Goods" was checked out.

And, since one merely signed the order form more or less "promising" that he was who he claimed to be, then Carcano rifles (as well as ammo) could have easily been ordered from any number of other locations.

In fact, since Oswald was in fact stationed in California just prior to leaving the service for the Soviet Union, he could have easily purchased one of these weapons directly.

Of course, we will never know at this late date unless someone is willing to expend more time and money than even I have expended on this subject matter.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

All that can be stated as fact is that JFK was assassinated by a 6.5mm Model 91/38 Short Rifle, which weapon was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

You had me right up until that one Thomas....

I thought all we can state as fact was that bullet and bullet fragments entered into evidence were traced back to have been fired from one of the weapons found that day... while supposedly found on the 6th floor, there are numerous contridictions to that statement as well - a Mr. Weitzman comes to mind as well as numerous statements by Insp Sawyer.

When those bullets or fragments were fired, where they come from as evidence and where they come from when/where purchased are still big questions.

There were no fragments taken from JFK or Connally that can be traced back to that rifle

In fact, the particle cloud in JFK's skull contradicts this weapon AND this ammunition...

From where do we find this FACT supported?

To Mark's point about the MC - wasn't there discussion of Oswald being involved in a rifle Mail-order sting which was the reason for the alias and the order in the first place? Something tells me there is some twisted back story to the M/C yet again involving spooks messing with each other... just a hunch.

DJ

[Thomas H. Purvis]

All that can be stated as fact is that JFK was assassinated by a 6.5mm Model 91/38 Short Rifle, which weapon was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

You had me right up until that one Thomas....

I thought all we can state as fact was that bullet and bullet fragments entered into evidence were traced back to have been fired from one of the weapons found that day... while supposedly found on the 6th floor, there are numerous contridictions to that statement as well - a Mr. Weitzman comes to mind as well as numerous statements by Insp Sawyer.

When those bullets or fragments were fired, where they come from as evidence and where they come from when/where purchased are still big questions.

There were no fragments taken from JFK or Connally that can be traced back to that rifle

In fact, the particle cloud in JFK's skull contradicts this weapon AND this ammunition...

From where do we find this FACT supported?

To Mark's point about the MC - wasn't there discussion of Oswald being involved in a rifle Mail-order sting which was the reason for the alias and the order in the first place? Something tells me there is some twisted back story to the M/C yet again involving spooks messing with each other... just a hunch.

DJ

"In fact, the particle cloud in JFK's skull contradicts this weapon AND this ammunition..."

Only to those who have not taken the time and effort to understand the forensic and ballistic facts as to how and why this full metal jacketed bullet fragmented in the manner in which it did.

"When those bullets or fragments were fired, where they come from as evidence and where they come from when/where purchased are still big questions."

In event that one is a follower of the all encompassing "planted bullet" theory, then it is most unlikely that any of the factual evidence will ever be believed.

However!

1. CE399, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, was fired from the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

2. Portions of the copper jacket to the bullet which severely fragmented as a result of the impact to the head of JFK were ballistically matched, to the excludion of ALL other weapons, to the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

3. The bullet that fragmented as a result of impact to the head of JFK also fractured the front windshield of the Presidential Limousine, as well as, to a high degree of probability, is also responsible for the dent in the windshield molding.

Now, for anyone who is of the opinion that there is some logic as to "planting" CE399, when it is not normal for a 6.5mm Carcano bullet to fragment in the manner that the head shot impact did, as Mr. Spock would declare, "this is not logical".

Likewise, one would have to assume that persons (unknown) who were at Parkland planting CE399, were also in cahoots with FBI & SS personnel who were busy somewhere along the line planting bullet fragments,which matched the assassination weapon, to be found in the Presidential Limo.

The bullets "came from" Western Cartridge Company, and when they were purchased is irrelevant as to the facts that they were fired from the recovered assassination weapon.

For all that I know, they may have been won in a poker game, which too would be irrelevant to the fact that these bullets were fired from the recovered assassination weapon and were ABSOLUTELY fired during the actual assassination event.

The bullets/fragments have themselves proven this fact!

Unless of course one believes in and follows the giant/encompassing "Planted Bullet (& planted fragments as well I might add) BS.

P.S. Not that you are likely to believe it either, but if one will follow ALL of the eyewitness statements they will find that sufficient witness testimony exists to document that each of the three shots fired in the assassination sequence were observed to have been fired from the window of the sixth floor of the TSDB.

[John Dolva]

Tom, remember I'm an armchair shooter (or if I had a telly and gun I'd shoot the telly) could you indulge some stupid questions please?

Would a top and to the right alignment of the scope account for wind conditions? (another observations is it that the red and dark coats near the yellow stripe can be seen as sniper wind assists? Or would it not, over the distance be relevant?)

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, remember I'm an armchair shooter (or if I had a telly and gun I'd shoot the telly) could you indulge some stupid questions please?

Would a top and to the right alignment of the scope account for wind conditions? (another observations is it that the red and dark coats near the yellow stripe can be seen as sniper wind assists? Or would it not, over the distance be relevant?)

"Would a top and to the right alignment of the scope account for wind conditions?"

Rifle to target distance was so short that no one would even consider any compensation for "drift" created by the wind.

Basically, four items had to be compensated for in the sighting of the cross-hairs of the scope.

1. Short range of target distance.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html

" A gun can be set up to be zeroed at 100 yards with the proper height front sight. You will probably have difficulty finding Carcano sights tall enough to accomplish this."

*However, one does not require a sight that is approximately 2-inches higher (as was the addition of the scope).

So, if one added a scope and then ran the "horizontal" crosshair well to the bottom of the sight reticle,then one could easily utilize the scope to compensate for what could not be compensated for with the fixed sights of the Model 91/38 Carcano, and thereby "sight" the weapon for accurate shooting of ranges of 100 yards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosshair

2. Far-left "off center" alignment of actual scope.

Which would require one to run the "vertical" line/crosshair well to the right of the scope reticle in order to compensate for the scope "offset" due to left-side mounting.

3. An advantage to the scope being mounted on the left-side of the weapon involves the ability to utilize the scope for "parallax" compensation.

The degree of parallax within the sight picture is of course directly related to which eye one utilizes in aiming.

This also affects the adjustment of the vertical crosshair in regards to the effects of #2 above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_scope#Parallax_compensation

4. "Spot-weld" alignment of cheek onto the stock of the weapon.

Which is affected by a number of items, and most specifically being the actual length of one's arms and how they affect placement of the stock/butt of the weapon into the armpit during sighting.

=========================================================================================

All in all, a "fixed-sight" weapon would be a poor choice for any attempt at assassination.

However, when one adds the scope, which can be utilized to compensate for a variety of sighting errors, to include close range shooting, then it becomes far more understandable as to why the scope would have been necessary for the short-range shooting in Dealey Plaza.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, remember I'm an armchair shooter (or if I had a telly and gun I'd shoot the telly) could you indulge some stupid questions please?

Would a top and to the right alignment of the scope account for wind conditions? (another observations is it that the red and dark coats near the yellow stripe can be seen as sniper wind assists? Or would it not, over the distance be relevant?)

"Would a top and to the right alignment of the scope account for wind conditions?"

Rifle to target distance was so short that no one would even consider any compensation for "drift" created by the wind.

Basically, four items had to be compensated for in the sighting of the cross-hairs of the scope.

1. Short range of target distance.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html

" A gun can be set up to be zeroed at 100 yards with the proper height front sight. You will probably have difficulty finding Carcano sights tall enough to accomplish this."

*However, one does not require a sight that is approximately 2-inches higher (as was the addition of the scope).

So, if one added a scope and then ran the "horizontal" crosshair well to the bottom of the sight reticle,then one could easily utilize the scope to compensate for what could not be compensated for with the fixed sights of the Model 91/38 Carcano, and thereby "sight" the weapon for accurate shooting of ranges of 100 yards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosshair

2. Far-left "off center" alignment of actual scope.

Which would require one to run the "vertical" line/crosshair well to the right of the scope reticle in order to compensate for the scope "offset" due to left-side mounting.

3. An advantage to the scope being mounted on the left-side of the weapon involves the ability to utilize the scope for "parallax" compensation.

The degree of parallax within the sight picture is of course directly related to which eye one utilizes in aiming.

This also affects the adjustment of the vertical crosshair in regards to the effects of #2 above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_scope#Parallax_compensation

4. "Spot-weld" alignment of cheek onto the stock of the weapon.

Which is affected by a number of items, and most specifically being the actual length of one's arms and how they affect placement of the stock/butt of the weapon into the armpit during sighting.

=========================================================================================

All in all, a "fixed-sight" weapon would be a poor choice for any attempt at assassination.

However, when one adds the scope, which can be utilized to compensate for a variety of sighting errors, to include close range shooting, then it becomes far more understandable as to why the scope would have been necessary for the short-range shooting in Dealey Plaza.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html

The Carcano rifles are capable of outstanding accuracy. With the exception of a military issue type load in the short carbines they are very pleasant to shoot from a recoil standpoint. Because of the above mentioned sight picture for the Carcano, front sight in the bottom of the rear sight notch, it is very important to have a consistent stock-cheek weld for consistent accuracy.

I have with my accuracy marked M38 Short Rifle shot groups under 1” at 100 yards with the norm being 1.5” – 2.0”.

The Carcano rifle is a well made rifle that is by no means weak or poorly manufactured. They are reliable and strong rifles that are fun to shoot and offer a tremendous variety of types and markings for the collector. I will admit that they are a rather utilitarian rifle as compared to some others. However, they are probably one of the most efficient, cost effective, user friendly battle rifles produced in their era. The rifle, ammunition combination properly loaded is capable of accuracy that will rival the most accurate of the Mauser chamberings.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So much for the mounds of BS about the "poor" capabilities of the Carcano!

[David Josephs]

"In fact, the particle cloud in JFK's skull contradicts this weapon AND this ammunition..."

Only to those who have not taken the time and effort to understand the forensic and ballistic facts as to how and why this full metal jacketed bullet fragmented in the manner in which it did.

All I know is from what Ive read here and researched online to find the hit characteristics of a FMJ and other types of ammo. From what I have seen, a FMJ bullet SHOULD NOT leave a tiny particle trail but either go thru and thru or break up, fragment, into significantly sized pieces. If you have something that shows FMJ bullets leaving particle trails in the way that mercury bullets or non-FMJ bullets might... Id like to see that

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/14th_Issue/overview.html

Next was a "Forensic Techniques" panel that included presentations by Margaret and Art Snyder, which I missed, and Craig Roberts. Mr. Roberts is a former Marine sniper and author of A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza and other books. He said he made a close study of the Zapruder film, "And I'll tell you what I saw --- as a sniper --- through the eyes of a sniper ... I saw a guy hit from the right front, with a frangible mercury bullet." Such a bullet, Roberts continued, will do its destructive work, and essentially disintegrate.

Characteristics of Mercury bullets

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3122

"When those bullets or fragments were fired, where they come from as evidence and where they come from when/where purchased are still big questions."

In event that one is a follower of the all encompassing "planted bullet" theory, then it is most unlikely that any of the factual evidence will ever be believed.

However!

1. CE399, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, was fired from the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

This is the same bullet that did not have any trace of blood, tissue, carbon, clothing and weighed more than it should have with what was left in JC? The one that looked as if it was shot into cotton or water? The one that has no chain of evidence and is not identified as the one found by those who found it, held it and transported it?

The fact it could have been shot from THAT rifle is no great shock to me.

Chemical and forensic analysis of

JFK assassination bullet lots:

Is a second shooter possible?

Cliff Spiegelman,1* William A. Tobin,2 William D. James,3 Simon J. Sheather,1

Stuart Wexler,4 D. Max Roundhill5

1 Department of Statistics, Texas A&M University, 3143 TAMU College Station,

Texas, 77843-3143

2 Forensic Engineering International, 2708 Little Gunstock Rd., Lake Anna, VA

23024-8882.

3 Center for Chemical Characterization and Analysis, Texas A&M University,

3144 TAMU, College Station, TX 77843-3144

4 Humanities and Advanced Placement Government, Highstown High School, 25

Leshin Lane, Highstown, NJ 08520

5Chem Consulting, 13325 Black Canyon Drive, Austin, TX 78729

Summary and conclusions:

We presented results from a study where ten bullets from each of three boxes of

Mannlicher-Carcano bullets were analyzed for chemical composition. Compositional

data from the ten bullets sampled from each box were compared to Dr. Guinns

testimony before the House Select Committee on Assassinations (1) regarding

assassination bullet fragment compositions and also to the findings of the NRC in their

report Weighing Bullet Lead Evidence (3). We found that many bullets within a box

of Mannlicher-Carcano bullets have similar composition. Further, we found that one16 of the thirty bullets analyzed in our study also compositionally matched one of the

fragments from the assassination analyzed by Dr. Guinn (1). If we allow for the bias

associated with Dr. Guinns measurements, it is possible that there would be even more

matches among our bullets with the JFK fragments. We have shown that two-element

chance matches to assassination fragments are not extraordinarily rare. Further, we

have shown that if bullets come from the same box, they are even less rare. Given the

significance and impact of the JFK assassination, it is scientifically desirable for the

evidentiary fragments to be reanalyzed. The reanalysis should include at least the

seven elements identified in the NRC report (3), should establish the scientific basis for

matching fragments originating from a single bullet, and should address the critically

important issues of bullet and source heterogeneity.

2. Portions of the copper jacket to the bullet which severely fragmented as a result of the impact to the head of JFK were ballistically matched, to the exclusion of ALL other weapons, to the recovered 6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle that was found/recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

See above and please add the unbelievably poor chain of evidence for any of these fragments that supposedly hit JFK. Furthermore, how exactly does a portion of a jacket match back to a rifle as opposed to matching back to a bullet? There were identifiable barrel characteristics on the portion of the jacket that could be matched to the rifle or is it just a bullet that may or may not have been fired from that rifle... please clarify.

3. The bullet that fragmented as a result of impact to the head of JFK also fractured the front windshield of the Presidential Limousine, as well as, to a high degree of probability, is also responsible for the dent in the windshield molding.

Please illuminate for us how you can connect the dots on these specific bullet fragments causing that damage as well as the arguments the windshield hole was thru and thru from the outside in.

Now, for anyone who is of the opinion that there is some logic as to "planting" CE399, when it is not normal for a 6.5mm Carcano bullet to fragment in the manner that the head shot impact did, as Mr. Spock would declare, "this is not logical".

Please excuse my lack of knowledge with this question... is there such thing as a Carcano bullet or simply a 6.5mm bullet that fits into rifles that fire such a size?

Likewise, one would have to assume that persons (unknown) who were at Parkland planting CE399, were also in cahoots with FBI & SS personnel who were busy somewhere along the line planting bullet fragments, which matched the assassination weapon, to be found in the Presidential Limo.

Whether CE399 was or was not at Parkland is still up for debate... all indications and testimony steer toward CE399 NOT being the bullet found there.

IMPORTANT NOTE: WHAT WAS FOUND AT PARKLAND OR IN THE LIMO OR EVEN ON THE 6TH FLOOR HAS TO SHOW A CHAIN OF EVIDENCE UNTIL IT IS ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE. UNTIL THAT IS ESTABLISHED, WHAT WAS FOUND SIMPLY MAY NOT BE WHAT IS IN EVIDENCE SO THERE WOULD NOT BE ANY NEED FOR PLANTING... ONLY SWITCHING AT SOME POINT IN TIME (EITHER BEFORE OR AFTER PROPERLY GATHERED AND CATALOGED) .

The bullets "came from" Western Cartridge Company, and when they were purchased is irrelevant as to the facts that they were fired from the recovered assassination weapon.

So were they WCC bullets or Carcano bullets as you mention above?

For all that I know, they may have been won in a poker game, which too would be irrelevant to the fact that these bullets were fired from the recovered assassination weapon and were ABSOLUTELY fired during the actual assassination event.

The bullets/fragments have themselves proven this fact!

Cmon now you have ABSOLUTELY no way to prove that rifle was fired THAT DAY in fact testimony shows no tests were done at all to determine whether the barrel was recently cleaned and had any new particles left behind. They could prove it WASNT fired that day but can never prove it was.... add to this the fact you cannot also establish the rifle that was found was the assassination rifle beyond your inconclusive bullet data

Unless of course one believes in and follows the giant/encompassing "Planted Bullet (& planted fragments as well I might add) BS.

P.S. Not that you are likely to believe it either, but if one will follow ALL of the eyewitness statements they will find that sufficient witness testimony exists to document that each of the three shots fired in the assassination sequence were observed to have been fired from the window of the sixth floor of the TSDB.

Wow are you wrong.

More than sufficient testimony exists that a shot or shots were fired from behind the fence at the Grassy Knoll, that multiple men with rifles were seen in the TSBD on the 5th, 6th and 7th floors just prior to the assassination, and that LHO was not even on the 6th floor just prior and just after the shots were fired.

Regarding your other conclusion that the Carcano was a well made rifle that is by no means weak or poorly manufactured.

I am sure this was true when the rifle was new, 20+ years earlier, when the ammo used was new not 20+ years old, when the rifle is kept well maintained and stored in a safe, clean environment. NOT in the condition we find the MC in evidence which repeatedly jammed, did not drop its clip, was poorly and improperly sighted and had a rusted/bent firing pin.

Kind of interesting too that Oswald was at work when Oswald brought his rifle in to have a scope mounted... and was at work when Oswald was taking target practice...

This dog dont hunt Thomas.... leaving a dust particle cloud is NOT what FMJ bullets were designed to do. CE399 hit rib and wrist bones and is virtually pristine... while the same type bullet from the same rifle hitting a single bone virtually disintegrates... why do we not see dust particle trails thru JFK's or JC's chest? and finally, if this FMJ bullet did what you are saying it did... how does his brain still weigh in at 1500cc's?

Edited September 30, 2010 by David Josephs