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Guest Duncan MacRae

Charles Brehm

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This is a brief article I wrote some time ago, about Brehm:

Like a number of other witnesses, Charles Brehm did not hear any shots

prior to frame 285 and was still clapping as the limo passed in front

of him at 285. He was interviewed by the FBI on 11/24/63, at which time, he

told the agents that he heard three rapid shots fired, just as the

limousine passed in front of him. This is from the original FBI report:

"BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the

President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet."

Of course, the actual distance the limo moved during the shots at Z285,

312 and 323, was a tad less than 28 feet, but then Brehm wasn't using a

tape measure.

Is it possible that this 10-12 foot estimate was something that he stated

by mistake? Could he really have believed that the first of three shots

was fired at such a late point? Let's look at another interview he gave

almost immediately after the attack, from p. 544 of "Pictures of the the

Pain", in which Trask cites a recorded, 11/22/64 interview,

"I happened to be about 15 feet away from the President when the first

shot hit him."

OK, folks - pull out your DP diagrams and check my numbers. At Z160, I

show Brehm as 117 feet from Kennedy. At Z224, he was 85 feet from him. At

Z285, I have him about 18 feet from Kennedy. I'd say 15 feet was a damned

good estimate. Here is more from the FBI interview, which confirms Brehm's

impression of the timing of the shots.

"When the President's automobile was very close to him and he could see

the President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning

forward when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to

be a rifle shot sounded. According to BREHM, the President seemed to

stiffen and come to a pause when another shot sounded and the President

appeared to be badly hit in the head...

BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were

relatively close together."

If anyone still doubts that the first shot Brehm heard was at Z285, please

go to my FTP site. The address is in the sig, and look at a file entitled,

"brehm.gif". In it, I have marked Brehm's position in DP as well as the

limo at Z160, 224, and Z285. At the earlier points, it is unlikely that

Brehm could have seen Kennedy at all, let alone "very well". But look at

the positions at Z285. This was when the limo passed directly in front of

him.

Obviously, Brehm did not hear,or notice the actual first shot. The fact

that we see him continuing to applaud until after Z290,confirms that.

Also keep in mind, that both Jean Hill and Mary Moorman, standing a few

feet west of Brehm, mimicked perfectly, his recollections of a rapid

series of shots as the limo passed directly in front of them.

One last citation from Richard Trask, on his own interview with Brehm

(also on p. 544 P of Portraits of the Pain),

"In a conversation with this author many years later, Mr. Brehm was still

clear and unchanging as to what he had witnessed. He vividly described

hearing the sound of the bullets whiz through the air, a sound he recalled

from his military days."

How could Brehm have heard "bullets" whiz through the air? Didn't the

first two shots hit Kennedy long before the limo approached Brehm's

position? At most, Brehm should have heard no more than one bullet pass

near him.

Charles Brehm heard at the very least, shots at Z285 and 312. I have no

doubt at all, that this experienced combat veteran also heard one at Z323,

just after the fatal head wound. In fact, he specifically told the FBI

that the final shot came just *AFTER* the fatal head wound.

"Brehm said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice

the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs.

KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction. BREHM said that a

third shot followed..."

These shots did not all come from Lee Harvey Oswald, folks. This is not a

theory. This is what really happened.

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Knock Knock Is there anybody there? hello.gif

This thread is not about yet another promotion of an imaginary shot at Zapruder frame 285 which did not happen, it's about Brehm's opinion that no shots came from the knoll. sheeshxx.gif

Actually, it's about whatever we choose to say, regarding Brehm's statements. But don't worry, when you are cornered, you only have to post cartoon characters and a lot of insults :D

As for where Brehm heard the shots come from, it's important to understand that he changed much of his story (or was persuaded to change his story) during the years following the assassination. This is what he told the Times Herald on 11/22/63.

Brehm, "seemed to think the shots came from in front of, or, beside the President." Why didn't you mention that in your little video, Duncan?

And BTW, since Lane asked him if he saw anything being blown out from JFK's head, don't you think it's a bit silly to blame him for assuming that the "white" piece that landed near Brehm was a piece of skull??

I mean how many other things could it have been? :ice

Edited by Robert Harris

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Well we know what happened when a detailed look at RRC happened some months ago. I wonder where such an enquiry would take one in the case of Brehms.

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And BTW, since Lane asked him if he saw anything being blown out from JFK's head, don't you think it's a bit silly to blame him for assuming that the "white" piece that landed near Brehm was a piece of skull??

I mean how many other things could it have been? :ice

Well Robert,

Maybe it was a large piece of your now infamous flying flesh cutting ashphalt debris that JFK forgot to brush from his head, after the shot by the mystery scissors snipping window smashing assassin's shot from the Daltex that no one seen or heard as the limo turned on to Elm.

Duncan I'm sorry you made a fool out of yourself trying to debunk me, and that you were the only one who saw a stack of boxes in that window :ice

I understand why you are forever misrepresenting me. But don't you think that's a lousy way to evade the fact that Brehm originally said a shot came from across the road where conspiracy people have been claiming for decades? And that Lane's presumption that a piece of skull was blown to the rear, was quite reasonable?

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Robert Harris said:
[Charles] Brehm originally said a shot came from across the road where conspiracy people have been claiming for decades[.] .... [Mark] Lane's presumption that a piece of skull was blown to the rear was quite reasonable[.]

First of all, Charles Brehm never was able to positively identify the object that he saw fall into the curb near his position on Elm Street as a piece of JFK's skull/head. And he made that fact quite plain in his 1966 filmed interview with Mark Lane (see video below).

Secondly, even if the object Brehm saw was a chunk of President Kennedy's head (which it probably was), the fact that it was thrown to the rear of JFK doesn't mean that the bullet which caused the head damage came from the front. And I cannot see why more people refuse to recognize this fact.

I.E.,

Since we all know that Kennedy's head was tossed violently to the rear (after being driven forward initially by the force of Lee Oswald's bullet coming from the Book Depository), then I don't see anything unusual or miraculous about a piece of loose brain tissue or skull bone being thrown to the rear of his head.

The violent movement of JFK's head backward might very well have resulted in some skull and/or brain being tossed toward the rear and trunk of the car, which can also easily explain the actions that most conspiracists think Jackie Kennedy undertook right after the head shot (with most CTers believing Jackie went to the trunk to retrieve a piece of her husband's skull).

Thirdly, Charles Brehm has always been quite clear as to the origin of the gunshots that he heard. In an interview with FBI agents Joseph J. Hanley and William O. Johnson on November 24, 1963, Brehm told the agents that he thoughts the shots had been fired from the area of the Elm/Houston intersection.

Quoting directly from the FBI report:

"Brehm...also stated that it seemed quite apparent to him that the shots came from one of two buildings back at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets." -- Via the Hanley/Johnson FBI report of 11/24/63, which was dictated on 11/25/63 [see Commission Document #5, pp.28-29; also see CE1425]

In 1986 at the TV Docu-Trial ("On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald"), Brehm also repeated the exact same thing about hearing the shots coming from either the TSBD or the Dal-Tex Building.

Brehm never said a word about hearing any shots at all coming from the direction of the Grassy Knoll in either his 11/24/63 FBI interview or in his testimony at the televised mock trial in London in 1986. Nor did he say a single word about hearing any shots coming from the front (Grassy Knoll) during his filmed interview with Mark Lane in 1966.

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Charles-Brehm-Logo.png

 

 

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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[Charles] Brehm originally said a shot came from across the road where conspiracy people have been claiming for decades[.] .... [Mark] Lane's presumption that a piece of skull was blown to the rear was quite reasonable[.]

First of all, Charles Brehm never was able to positively identify the object that he saw fall into the curb near his position on Elm Street as a piece of JFK's skull/head. And he made that fact quite plain in his 1966 filmed interview with Mark Lane (see video below).

Secondly, even if the object Brehm saw was a chunk of President Kennedy's head (which it probably was), the fact that it was thrown to the rear of JFK doesn't mean that the bullet which caused the head damage came from the front. And I cannot see why more people refuse to recognize this fact.

I.E.,

Since we all know that Kennedy's head was tossed violently to the rear (after being driven forward initially by the force of Lee Oswald's bullet coming from the Book Depository), then I don't see anything unusual or miraculous about a piece of loose brain tissue or skull bone being thrown to the rear of his head.

The violent movement of JFK's head backward might very well have resulted in some skull and/or brain being tossed toward the rear and trunk of the car, which can also easily explain the actions that most conspiracists think Jackie Kennedy undertook right after the head shot (with most CTers believing Jackie went to the trunk to retrieve a piece of her husband's skull).

Thirdly, Charles Brehm has always been quite clear as to the origin of the gunshots that he heard. In an interview with FBI agents Joseph J. Hanley and William O. Johnson on November 24, 1963, Brehm said that it was "quite apparent to him that the shots came from one of two buildings back at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets" [quoting from the Hanley/Johnson FBI report of 11/24/63, which was dictated on 11/25/63; see Commission Document #5, pp.28-29; also see CE1425].

In 1986 at the TV Docu-Trial ("On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald"), Brehm also repeated the exact same thing about hearing the shots coming from either the TSBD or the Dal-Tex Building. He never said a word about hearing any shots at all coming from the direction of the Grassy Knoll in either his 11/24/63 FBI interview or in his testimony at the televised mock trial in London in 1986. Nor did Brehm say a single word about hearing any shots coming from the front (Grassy Knoll) during his filmed interview with Mark Lane in 1966.

I couldn't care less what Brehm said years later, after he was obviously influenced by "friends" like Steve Barber and other nutter fanatics who convinced him to change his story. On 11/22/63, the limo was 15 feet from him, which grew to over 60 feet, years later. And the shot he heard from directly across the road, was moved back to the depository, where it really belonged :D

In a case like this, we must ALWAYS go with the earliest, original statements. And the simple fact is, that Brehm's original recollection was that a shot was fired from across the road.

As for your claim that a large piece of skull was thrown to the rear by inertia, that is ridiculous. The Itek corporation seriously studied that issue, looking at a second generation copy of the Zapruder film, and concluded that NOTHING larger than the particles in the bloody mist, were blown to the rear at 313. That could ONLY have been the result of a second headshot, exactly as Drs. Robertson, Mantik and Riley concluded after they each traveled independently to the national archives to study the original Xrays.

After the explosion, the head moved forward and then reversed directions, traveling backward through a distance of less than one foot, during a period of about eight frames.

That means it moved rearward at less than 13mph - not nearly enough to generate that kind of inertial.

Edited by Robert Harris

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I couldn't care less what Brehm said years later...

Obviously, Harris totally ignored CD5 and CE1425, which is the report of Brehm's interview with the FBI on NOVEMBER 24, 1963, just TWO DAYS after the assassination, which was about 20 years before he ever heard of Steve Barber.

You don't consider a November 24, 1963, interview to be an early enough statement from Brehm, Bob?

In a case like this, we must ALWAYS go with the earliest, original statements.

I did. And it's the 11/24/63 FBI report, where Brehm stated to two FBI agents that it was "quite apparent" that the shots he heard had come from the corner of Elm & Houston.

And the simple fact is, that Brehm's original recollection was that a shot was fired from across the road.

Please cite the interview which has Brehm saying that.

Edited by David Von Pein

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You don't believe the Jackie was retrieving a piece of JFK's head from the trunk?

No, I don't. That's Conspiracy Myth #129.

Jackie herself said she didn't even remember going out onto the trunk at all. So she was never any help to anyone regarding this issue.

But even if she HAD gone to the trunk to get a piece of grisly skull/brain, my previous post in this thread

is (IMO) a perfectly reasonable explanation for how a piece of JFK's head could have ended up on the trunk after being struck from behind by a bullet.

Plus: the conspiracy theorists who seem to think that the trunk of the Presidential limousine was the ONLY possible place where Jackie could have obtained the piece of brain tissue that she handed to Dr. Marion Jenkins at Parkland Hospital are just dead wrong about that. We know that Mrs. Kennedy was holding onto JFK's head during the entire 5-minute drive to Parkland. So it's quite reasonable to believe that in her futile efforts to try and "hold his skull on", a piece of the President's head could have come off in Jackie's hands.

Edited by David Von Pein

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You don't believe the Jackie was retrieving a piece of JFK's head from the trunk?

No, I don't. That's Conspiracy Myth #129.

Jackie herself said she didn't even remember going out onto the trunk at all. So she was never any help to anyone regarding this issue.

But even if she HAD gone to the trunk to get a piece of grisly skull/brain, my previous post in this thread

is (IMO) a perfectly reasonable explanation for how a piece of JFK's head could have ended up on the trunk after being struck from behind by a bullet.

Plus: the conspiracy theorists who seem to think that the trunk of the Presidential limousine was the ONLY possible place where Jackie could have obtained the piece of brain tissue that she handed to Dr. Marion Jenkins at Parkland Hospital are just dead wrong about that. We know that Mrs. Kennedy was holding onto JFK's head during the entire 5-minute drive to Parkland. So it's quite reasonable to believe that in her futile efforts to try and "hold his skull on", a piece of the President's head could have come off in Jackie's hands.

So your purpose isn't to determine the truth - but to debunk and any all conspiracy theories?

How is it a conspiracy theory that Jackie grabbed something off the trunk of the limo that can be clearly seen in the Z-film and what Agent Hill says is a piece of JFK's head?

Those things really happened, regardless of your extremist beliefs.

BK

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I couldn't care less what Brehm said years later...

Obviously, Harris totally ignored CD5 and CE1425, which is the report of Brehm's interview with the FBI on NOVEMBER 24, 1963, just TWO DAYS after the assassination, which was about 20 years before he ever heard of Steve Barber.

You don't consider a November 24, 1963, interview to be an early enough statement from Brehm, Bob?

In a case like this, we must ALWAYS go with the earliest, original statements.

I did. And it's the 11/24/63 FBI report, where Brehm stated to two FBI agents that it was "quite apparent" that the shots he heard had come from the corner of Elm & Houston.

And the simple fact is, that Brehm's original recollection was that a shot was fired from across the road.

Please cite the interview which has Brehm saying that.

No, I ignored nothing and I have cited that FBI report more times than I can remember. But on 11/22/63 Brehm reported what he heard, WITHOUT having read (and probably being told by the FBI) that Oswald was the solitary assassin who fired from the depository. Obviously, that colored his opinion and caused him to change his story.

Why would you prefer story #2, David? Why not go with his original recollection, based purely on what he saw and heard, rather than what he was told later in the media?

And why haven't you commented on the fact that the first shot Brehm heard, was fired when JFK was "15-20 feet" from him - EXACTLY where he was at 285, and the fact that he heard a shot AFTER the explosive head wound?

Why do you instead, cherry pick his statements, only citing minute details that you think support your theory?

Honest researchers look at ALL the evidence David. Pitchmen pick and choose what they need to sell their theories. And there's a LOT of evidence that you refuse to talk about, isn't there David? :D

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No, I ignored nothing and I have cited that FBI report more times than I can remember. But on 11/22/63 Brehm reported what he heard, WITHOUT having read (and probably being told by the FBI) that Oswald was the solitary assassin who fired from the depository. Obviously, that colored his opinion and caused him to change his story.

Cite the interview. Where is it? Where's the quote?

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You don't believe the Jackie was retrieving a piece of JFK's head from the trunk?

No, I don't. That's Conspiracy Myth #129.

Jackie herself said she didn't even remember going out onto the trunk at all. So she was never any help to anyone regarding this issue.

But even if she HAD gone to the trunk to get a piece of grisly skull/brain, my previous post in this thread

is (IMO) a perfectly reasonable explanation for how a piece of JFK's head could have ended up on the trunk after being struck from behind by a bullet.

Plus: the conspiracy theorists who seem to think that the trunk of the Presidential limousine was the ONLY possible place where Jackie could have obtained the piece of brain tissue that she handed to Dr. Marion Jenkins at Parkland Hospital are just dead wrong about that. We know that Mrs. Kennedy was holding onto JFK's head during the entire 5-minute drive to Parkland. So it's quite reasonable to believe that in her futile efforts to try and "hold his skull on", a piece of the President's head could have come off in Jackie's hands.

So your purpose isn't to determine the truth - but to debunk and any all conspiracy theories?

How is it a conspiracy theory that Jackie grabbed something off the trunk of the limo that can be clearly seen in the Z-film and what Agent Hill says is a piece of JFK's head?

Those things really happened, regardless of your extremist beliefs.

BK

You're obviously correct, Bill. This brief article goes into considerable detail on the issue,

http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.html

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How is it a conspiracy theory that Jackie grabbed something off the trunk of the limo that can be clearly seen in the Z-film and what Agent Hill says is a piece of JFK's head?

You can "clearly" see the grisly head piece that Jackie supposedly grabbed, Bill? Your eyes are terrific then! Fantastic, in fact. Because nobody else can see that head piece.

And it becomes a "conspiracy theory" mainly because the CTers believe that the ONLY way Jackie could have grabbed something off of the trunk was by way of a frontal gunmen firing a shot into JFK's brain. And that's just not the case at all. (Certainly not the PROVABLE case anyway.)

Would you not agree, William Kelly?

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