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Guest Duncan MacRae

Charles Brehm

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Bob's reliance on Brehm's estimation of his distance from the limo to prop up that Brehm first heard a shot at Z-285 reeks of desperation, IMO. Why not rely on ALL Brehm's statements? The man clearly saw Kennedy react to the first shot.

Bob's not the first to represent Brehm's statements in a curious manner, of course. Bugliosi cited Brehm's testimony in the mock trial in his description of a third shot head shot. This was totally disingenuous. Brehm insisted--from the very beginning--that the third shot came after the head shot and missed. And Bugliosi knew this better than anybody. He'd been the lawyer who'd taken Brehm's testimony.

From patspeer.com, chapter 7:

Charles Brehm and his small son Joe were several yards to Moorman’s and Hill’s right and can be seen in the Zapruder, Nix and Moorman films, as well as the Bond photo. (11-22-63 notes on an interview of Brehm by a Dallas Times-Herald reporter immediately after the shooting, as presented in The Zapruder Film by David Wrone, 2003) "The shots came from in front of or beside of the President." (11-22-63 article in the Dallas Times Herald) "The first time he slumped and the second one really blasted him," These were the words of Charles Drehm...Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in front of or beside the President." (11-22-63 (NBC?) radio interview found on the internet) “I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him. There is some discussion now as to whether there was one or two shots that hit him, but the first shot rang out and I was positive when I saw the look on his face and saw him grab his chest and saw the reaction of his wife that he had been shot and just at that time, which was probably a few seconds later the second shot rang out and he just absolutely went down into the seat of the car. There was a third shot that went and by that time I had grabbed my little five year old boy who was with me and ran away from the scene of the thing. But the only thing that I did witness and something I'm sorry I did witness very honestly was the look on his face when that shot hit, and the look again on him and his wife's face when the shots started to ring out. And it was very obviously that he was hit. The first two shots that were heard. The first one hit the president—there was no doubt whatsoever--because his face winced and he grabbed himself and he slumped down. I do believe without any doubt that the second one hit him because he had an immediate reaction with that second shot. I do know there was a third shot but as I said by that time I had grabbed my boy and started to go. I did not witness Governor Connally’s being hit.” (11-22-63 WBAP television interview first broadcast 3:15 CST, as shown in Rush to Judgment) “Unfortunately I was probably 15-20 feet away from the President when it happened. He was coming down the Street and my five-year old boy and myself were by ourselves on the grass there on Commerce Street. And I asked Joe to wave to him and Joe waved and I waved (breaks up)…as he was waving back, the shot rang out and he slumped down in his seat and his wife reached up toward him as he was slumping down and the second shot went off and it just knocked him down in the seat...Two shots..." (When asked if he saw the shooter) "No, sir, I did not see the man who did it. All I did was look in the man's face when he was shot there and saw that expression on his face and he grabbed himself and slide, and the second one whenever it went--I’m positive that it hit him--I hope it didn't--but I'm positive it hit him and he went all the way down in the car. Then they speeded up and I didn't know what was going on so I just grabbed the boy and fell on him in hopes that there wasn't a maniac around.” (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) “He was waving and the first shot hit him, and then that awful look crossed his face,” Brehm said.” (11-25-63 FBI report, 22H837-838) ‘‘He and his son stood right at the curb on the grass and saw the President’s car take a wide swing as it turned left into Elm Street. When the President’s automobile was very close to him and he could see the President’s face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning forward when he stiffened perceptibly, at the same instant what appeared to be a rifle shot sounded. According to Brehm, the President seemed to stiffen and come to a pause when another shot sounded and the President appeared to be badly hit in the head. Brehm said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President’s hair fly up and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. Kennedy was apparently pulling him in that direction. Brehm said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. Brehm stated that he was in military service and has had experience with bolt-action rifles and he expressed his opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and fire three shots. Brehm stated he definitely knew that the President had been shot and he recalled having seen blood on the President's face. He also stated that it seemed quite apparent to him that the shots came from one of two buildings back at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets. Immediately after the third shot rang out, Brehm pushed his son down on the grass and for the moment was more concerned with the safety of his son who might be hit by any wild gunfire which might follow. Brehm expressed the opinion that between the first and third shots, the president’s car only traveled some 10 to 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the president was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway underpass.”

(12-1-63 article in the Philadelphia Bulletin) "As the President passed him about 20 feet away, Brehm said, he heard the first shot. It was 12:32 PM. 'He (the President) stiffened,' said Brehm. 'He had been sitting forward on the seat, not sitting deep back. He seemed to straighten out--as if digging his heels into the floor of the car.' The President's hand came up slowly to his neck, said Brehm. 'He gave a cringe of pain,' he said. This was not the bullet which caused the massive head wound, said Brehm. 'I saw what the next bullet to hit him did to his head,' he said. So this first bullet was the one which entered the President's body at the neckline, and, perhaps splintering, left a wound in his neck just below his Adam's apple near his necktie, and coursed down into his chest. Both Brehm and Truly, who was standing in front of the depository, thought that at this moment the limousine swerved--or 'jerked' as Brehm put it--to the left as if about to speed away. Then, however, Brehm said, it seemed to lose momentum--'almost as if the driver had taken his foot off the gas.' Maybe I was just imagining it,' said Brehm. 'Maybe I thought it was swerving because I just wanted that thing (the limousine) to leap out of there--get out fast.' And then, for a long few seconds, there seemed to be silence. There seemed to be no immediate awareness of what happened. Brehm said the President's smile was 'sagging.' He had a pain-stricken look on his face,' he said. The President was still sitting straight, said Brehm. It wasn't until the President was hit again that he slumped against his wife, and she took his head in her arms. 'He seemed to be conscious that something terrible had happened to him,' said Brehm. 'It didn't look like it knocked him out.' Two facts of hideous portent emerge from the stories told by Brehm and others. The President's head was still visible above the leather upholstered seat of the limousine to the eye on the other side of the telescopic sight. Also, the car was still moving at 15 to 18 miles an hour. The rifleman, however, shifted his aim to Texas Gov. John B. Connally. Brehm said he heard a second shot, but didn't know where it went. 'I was watching the President,' he said. This shot hit Connally in the back just under the right shoulder blade. It splintered the fifth rib, coursed down through the body, and emerged from his side to break his right wrist lying in his lap and lodge in his left thigh. Brehm said he knew by the sound of the shots that they had crossed his line of vision rather than coming from over his shoulder or from the other side of the road. And still--after the second shot--the President's head was still visible above the seat; still there was no sudden burst of speed. The effect of the third bullet was murderous. It hit the back of the President's head with an ax-like or chopping effect. Another fraction of an inch--and the bullet might just have creased the President's head. Still another fraction of an inch and it might have missed him altogether. As it was, it hit at a shallow angle, ripping off a piece of skull 'perhaps the diameter of a teacup,' said Dr. William Kemp Clark, a neurosurgeon."

(3-28-66 Interview shown in the Mark Lane movies Rush to Judgment, 1966, and Two Men in Dallas, 1976) “he was possibly 30 feet away when the first bullet struck, moved a little closer and was possibly 20-25 feet away when the second bullet hit…When the second bullet hit, there was (he motions to his right ear)—the hair seemed to go flying. It was very definite then that he was struck in the head with the second bullet…I saw a piece fly over in the area of the curb…it seemed to have come left and back…whatever it was that I saw did fall both in that direction and over into the curb there.” (11-22-66 AP article found in the Alton Illinois Evening Telegraph) "When the first shot went off I really didn't think it was gunfire. He (the president) had a sense of humor, and when his hands went up to the sides of his neck I thought he was making a gesture. I thought it was a backfire. Then the second shot hit. He went down. He Just went down. I knew the sound that bullets make, and it was at this time that I thought it was shooting. It was too weird to think he was really shot. When I realized he had been I was trying to push that car to go, go, go. I fell with the boy on the ground. The third shot really upset me. I knew he was hit the first two times but the third one didn't make any sense at all." Brehm said, "I contend that the third shot went wild." (Late 1966 interview with Lawrence Schiller recounted in The Scavengers and Critics of the Warren Report, published 1967) "When the first shot went off, I thought it was a backfire from from a motorcycle. But when his hands went up, then I realized 'My God, he has been shot.' On the first shot I was possibly thirty feet maximum from him. On the second shot he was not more than fifteen feet away. I couldn't imagine that it was a shot. But when I seen the president stiffen and his hands go up, I knew then that he had been shot. From where I was on the second shot, the damage was visible to the President's head. It was clearly visible that he had been hit in the head. I could see that the damage was severe. There was defiintely blood. It was not a great flow of it but you could see the area crimson. I did not see blood on the first shot. Then I grabbed the boy and threw him on the ground and fell on top of him, a natural infantry instinct that came to me. There were only three shots. It was a third wasted shot that from the sound of it, and I'm taking into account that I've heard these things go past me before and I've stopped a couple of them, that third shot came nowhere near the parade. I felt that was the hurried shot." (When asked if he saw something fly from the president's head) "I did see something fly to the left of the car and down into the street. I saw something but I couldn't positively identify it and I don't want to go on record as identifying it....My belief, and if I had to die on the spot from my belief, is those two shots came from the same place. I couldn't pinpoint it, but they came from what was established as a window. There was no shots from anywhere else...the shots came from up at the School Book Depository. There was no doubt in my mind that this was the way that it was."

(7-23-86 testimony in televised mock trial, On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald) (When asked to tell the jury what happened, while standing in front of a map of Dealey Plaza) "As the car turned, and when I say the car I mean the Presidential car, turned and straightened out and started coming down (he is now pointing to the limo's location at approximately frame 175 of the Zapruder film) the first noise that I heard hit the President, uh. It struck him and he raised his hand up to his neck (he now grabs the back of his neck with right hand). The car proceeded there it seemed very very slow, proceeded down just beyond me in this area (he is now pointing to a location passed the steps seen in the Muchmore film, on the North side of Elm--this is approximately 50 feet passed the location of the limousine at the time of the head shot) when the second shot went off which absolutely destroyed the President's head. The car then took off in a zig-zag motion down into this area (he points to the stretch of Elm running parallel to the stockade fence) when the third shot--which seemed to me to be a wasted shot--went off, which frightened me more than any of the others because then I thought it was somebody shooting up the place. I then fell on my son. (When asked the time interval between the shots) "First and third shot. Somewhere around seven seconds." (When asked the location from which he thought the shots had been fired) "I told the officers that they came from one of the two buildings, one of which was the school book depository, the other was over on that corner (he points to the Dal-Tex Building). One of the two." (When asked if he felt confident about this) "Yes, I do". (When asked if he felt the shots came from behind the President) "Absolutely." (NOTE: the next two questions and answers were apparently not televised on the program in the U.S. but are included in Vincent Bugliosi's book, Reclaiming History.) (When asked if he thought the shots were spaced out far enough to have been fired by a bolt-action rifle) "Very easily." (When asked if all the shots came from the same location) "All three shots were from the same origin." (No More Silence, p.60-69, published 1998) “Of course, it became obvious after the surprise noise that that it was a shot and that he was hurt... And when he got to the area just past me, the second shot hit which damaged, considerably damaged, the top of his head…That car took off in an evasive motion, back and forth, and was just beyond me when a third shot went off. ..You know when a bullet passes over you, the cracking sound it makes, and that bullet had an absolute crack to it.” Analysis: aside from the 12-1-63 article in the Philadelphia paper, where it seems likely Brehm's words were sculpted to fit the writers' own theory that the second shot hit Connally, Brehm consistently claimed the President was hit by the first and second shots and that a third shot came after the head shot. The piece of skull he saw crash into the curb could be the piece seen by Stavis Ellis and Royce Skelton. It is also interesting to note that Brehm's testimony to Bugliosi in 86 that all the shots sounded the same is in conflict with his statement to Sneed in No More Silence. First shot hit 190-224. Last shot after the head shot.

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Thank you for the info, Pat. Lots of Brehm goodies in there.

So, Brehm did contradict himself from Nov. 22 to Nov. 24. I wish the 11/22 Dallas Times-Herald interview had been recorded on audio.

Edited by David Von Pein

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"Bob's reliance on Brehm's estimation of his distance from the limo to prop up that Brehm first heard a shot at Z-285 reeks of desperation"

I can't believe what I am hearing. Brehm was about 18 feet, give or take one or two, at frame 285.

And then you go on to cite Brehm. YOUR OWN QUOTATIONS:

1. "I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him" 11/22/63

2. “Unfortunately I was probably 15-20 feet away from the President when it happened"

3. Brehm expressed the opinion that between the first and third shots, the president’s car only traveled some 10 to 12 feet. 11/24/63

3. "As the President passed him about 20 feet away, Brehm said, he heard the first shot." 12/1/63

Why am I "desperate" to cite the man verbatim in statements he made almost immediately following the attack?

And the fact that he was still clapping at 285, proves that he has heard nothing he believed was a gunshot, prior to that point.

Jean Hill standing less than 20 feet to his left, said the limo was "almost abreast" of her position when she heard a series of shots.

Mary Moorman said, "As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all."

Kellerman reported a "flurry" of shots.

Greer said the second and third were almost simultaneous.

Even the WC admitted that MOST witnesses who stated an opinion on the subject said the final shots were close together. That's a perfect match with 285 and 313.

We both know that Woodward said the second and third were bunched and that the third was the headshot, but Bowers is another classic example. I'm sure you've seen him rap on the table in his interview with Lane. Did you also notice that in his testimony, he heard ALL three shots after the limo had disappeared from his sight, as the pergola blocked his view??

Pull out your DP diagram Pat. I see the limo passing out of Bowers view by the late 250's. What do you get? Pat, he heard the shots at 285, 312 and (app.) 319. Nothing else makes any sense.

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"Bob's reliance on Brehm's estimation of his distance from the limo to prop up that Brehm first heard a shot at Z-285 reeks of desperation"

I can't believe what I am hearing. Brehm was about 18 feet, give or take one or two, at frame 285.

And then you go on to cite Brehm. YOUR OWN QUOTATIONS:

1. "I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him" 11/22/63

2. “Unfortunately I was probably 15-20 feet away from the President when it happened"

3. Brehm expressed the opinion that between the first and third shots, the president’s car only traveled some 10 to 12 feet. 11/24/63

3. "As the President passed him about 20 feet away, Brehm said, he heard the first shot." 12/1/63

Why am I "desperate" to cite the man verbatim in statements he made almost immediately following the attack?

And the fact that he was still clapping at 285, proves that he has heard nothing he believed was a gunshot, prior to that point.

Jean Hill standing less than 20 feet to his left, said the limo was "almost abreast" of her position when she heard a series of shots.

Mary Moorman said, "As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all."

Kellerman reported a "flurry" of shots.

Greer said the second and third were almost simultaneous.

Even the WC admitted that MOST witnesses who stated an opinion on the subject said the final shots were close together. That's a perfect match with 285 and 313.

We both know that Woodward said the second and third were bunched and that the third was the headshot, but Bowers is another classic example. I'm sure you've seen him rap on the table in his interview with Lane. Did you also notice that in his testimony, he heard ALL three shots after the limo had disappeared from his sight, as the pergola blocked his view??

Pull out your DP diagram Pat. I see the limo passing out of Bowers view by the late 250's. What do you get? Pat, he heard the shots at 285, 312 and (app.) 319. Nothing else makes any sense.

I am not disputing that the last two shots were close together, Bob--they obviously were--or even that there was a shot at Z-285. What I am disputing is your use of Brehm's estimates to claim he didn't see Kennedy hit by the first shot he heard, and that he didn't hear any shots before Z-285. This is clearly not true. His descriptions of Kennedy's reaction to the first shot exactly parallels what happens after Z-190, and bears no resemblance to what happens after Z-285.

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"Bob's reliance on Brehm's estimation of his distance from the limo to prop up that Brehm first heard a shot at Z-285 reeks of desperation"

I can't believe what I am hearing. Brehm was about 18 feet, give or take one or two, at frame 285.

And then you go on to cite Brehm. YOUR OWN QUOTATIONS:

1. "I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him" 11/22/63

2. “Unfortunately I was probably 15-20 feet away from the President when it happened"

3. Brehm expressed the opinion that between the first and third shots, the president’s car only traveled some 10 to 12 feet. 11/24/63

3. "As the President passed him about 20 feet away, Brehm said, he heard the first shot." 12/1/63

Why am I "desperate" to cite the man verbatim in statements he made almost immediately following the attack?

And the fact that he was still clapping at 285, proves that he has heard nothing he believed was a gunshot, prior to that point.

Jean Hill standing less than 20 feet to his left, said the limo was "almost abreast" of her position when she heard a series of shots.

Mary Moorman said, "As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all."

Kellerman reported a "flurry" of shots.

Greer said the second and third were almost simultaneous.

Even the WC admitted that MOST witnesses who stated an opinion on the subject said the final shots were close together. That's a perfect match with 285 and 313.

We both know that Woodward said the second and third were bunched and that the third was the headshot, but Bowers is another classic example. I'm sure you've seen him rap on the table in his interview with Lane. Did you also notice that in his testimony, he heard ALL three shots after the limo had disappeared from his sight, as the pergola blocked his view??

Pull out your DP diagram Pat. I see the limo passing out of Bowers view by the late 250's. What do you get? Pat, he heard the shots at 285, 312 and (app.) 319. Nothing else makes any sense.

I am not disputing that the last two shots were close together, Bob--they obviously were--or even that there was a shot at Z-285. What I am disputing is your use of Brehm's estimates to claim he didn't see Kennedy hit by the first shot he heard, and that he didn't hear any shots before Z-285. This is clearly not true. His descriptions of Kennedy's reaction to the first shot exactly parallels what happens after Z-190, and bears no resemblance to what happens after Z-285.

"I am not disputing that the last two shots were close together, Bob--they obviously were--or even that there was a shot at Z-285."

Ok, but previously you did dispute the shot at 285. Is this a change in your position?

As for when he heard what he thought was the first shot, do you really think that he would still be applauding five seconds after he heard a gunshot and saw JFK "stiffen"? Look, if you hear a gunshot, it is human nature to think that whatever symptoms you see then, were caused by the shot you just heard. JFK never really "stiffened" anyway. He slouched after he was hit.

That's why Clint Hill thought that JFK FIRST reacted to being hit at the same time that Hill leaped from the running board, and why Mrs. Kennedy thought her husband was "receiving a bullet" after she turned back toward him at 290, and why Nellie thought her own husband was hit then and she turned toward him, simultaneous with Jackie.

And would he have just gotten mixed up and mistaken almost 100 feet for 15?? And how could have have thought that three shots were fired as the limo only traveled 12 feet??

His statements were a perfect match with shots at 285, 312 and app. 319, just as Bowers were. (his rapping on the table was almost spot on).

Furthermore, J. Hill and Moorman reported essentially, the same thing he did and there is no evidence suggesting that he even discussed the shots with them.

And finally Pat, there is a REASON why he didn't hear the early shots. They really, really, REALLY were suppressed. That is why they didn't startle anyone and why almost no-one recognized the one they did hear, as a gunshot. There were two high powered rifle shots that day and you can easily see the startle reactions following both of them.

That's also why the Secret Service appeared "sluggish". They heard nothing that sounded like a gunshot until 285, after which all hell broke out.

You sound exactly like me in 1994. But a LOT of this old school stuff is just crap. If you really want to understand the shooting, you need to wipe the slate clean and start again. If you can find a way to do that, a lot of lights will come on. Not only that but you will acquire exciting new friends who will follow you around from forum to forum, urging you to jump off a tall building during rush hour :D

But if you believe nothing else I say, you can believe that it's all worth it.

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"Bob's reliance on Brehm's estimation of his distance from the limo to prop up that Brehm first heard a shot at Z-285 reeks of desperation"

I can't believe what I am hearing. Brehm was about 18 feet, give or take one or two, at frame 285.

And then you go on to cite Brehm. YOUR OWN QUOTATIONS:

1. "I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him" 11/22/63

2. “Unfortunately I was probably 15-20 feet away from the President when it happened"

3. Brehm expressed the opinion that between the first and third shots, the president’s car only traveled some 10 to 12 feet. 11/24/63

3. "As the President passed him about 20 feet away, Brehm said, he heard the first shot." 12/1/63

Why am I "desperate" to cite the man verbatim in statements he made almost immediately following the attack?

And the fact that he was still clapping at 285, proves that he has heard nothing he believed was a gunshot, prior to that point.

Jean Hill standing less than 20 feet to his left, said the limo was "almost abreast" of her position when she heard a series of shots.

Mary Moorman said, "As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all."

Kellerman reported a "flurry" of shots.

Greer said the second and third were almost simultaneous.

Even the WC admitted that MOST witnesses who stated an opinion on the subject said the final shots were close together. That's a perfect match with 285 and 313.

We both know that Woodward said the second and third were bunched and that the third was the headshot, but Bowers is another classic example. I'm sure you've seen him rap on the table in his interview with Lane. Did you also notice that in his testimony, he heard ALL three shots after the limo had disappeared from his sight, as the pergola blocked his view??

Pull out your DP diagram Pat. I see the limo passing out of Bowers view by the late 250's. What do you get? Pat, he heard the shots at 285, 312 and (app.) 319. Nothing else makes any sense.

I am not disputing that the last two shots were close together, Bob--they obviously were--or even that there was a shot at Z-285. What I am disputing is your use of Brehm's estimates to claim he didn't see Kennedy hit by the first shot he heard, and that he didn't hear any shots before Z-285. This is clearly not true. His descriptions of Kennedy's reaction to the first shot exactly parallels what happens after Z-190, and bears no resemblance to what happens after Z-285.

"I am not disputing that the last two shots were close together, Bob--they obviously were--or even that there was a shot at Z-285."

Ok, but previously you did dispute the shot at 285. Is this a change in your position?

As for when he heard what he thought was the first shot, do you really think that he would still be applauding five seconds after he heard a gunshot and saw JFK "stiffen"? Look, if you hear a gunshot, it is human nature to think that whatever symptoms you see then, were caused by the shot you just heard. JFK never really "stiffened" anyway. He slouched after he was hit.

That's why Clint Hill thought that JFK FIRST reacted to being hit at the same time that Hill leaped from the running board, and why Mrs. Kennedy thought her husband was "receiving a bullet" after she turned back toward him at 290, and why Nellie thought her own husband was hit then and she turned toward him, simultaneous with Jackie.

And would he have just gotten mixed up and mistaken almost 100 feet for 15?? And how could have have thought that three shots were fired as the limo only traveled 12 feet??

His statements were a perfect match with shots at 285, 312 and app. 319, just as Bowers were. (his rapping on the table was almost spot on).

Furthermore, J. Hill and Moorman reported essentially, the same thing he did and there is no evidence suggesting that he even discussed the shots with them.

And finally Pat, there is a REASON why he didn't hear the early shots. They really, really, REALLY were suppressed. That is why they didn't startle anyone and why almost no-one recognized the one they did hear, as a gunshot. There were two high powered rifle shots that day and you can easily see the startle reactions following both of them.

That's also why the Secret Service appeared "sluggish". They heard nothing that sounded like a gunshot until 285, after which all hell broke out.

You sound exactly like me in 1994. But a LOT of this old school stuff is just crap. If you really want to understand the shooting, you need to wipe the slate clean and start again. If you can find a way to do that, a lot of lights will come on. Not only that but you will acquire exciting new friends who will follow you around from forum to forum, urging you to jump off a tall building during rush hour :D

But if you believe nothing else I say, you can believe that it's all worth it.

Robert, I did wipe the slate clean when I started my comprehensive study of the witness statements. I went in thinking, like most, that the head shot was the last shot, but came out firmly convinced it was not.

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"Bob's reliance on Brehm's estimation of his distance from the limo to prop up that Brehm first heard a shot at Z-285 reeks of desperation"

I can't believe what I am hearing. Brehm was about 18 feet, give or take one or two, at frame 285.

And then you go on to cite Brehm. YOUR OWN QUOTATIONS:

1. "I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him" 11/22/63

2. “Unfortunately I was probably 15-20 feet away from the President when it happened"

3. Brehm expressed the opinion that between the first and third shots, the president’s car only traveled some 10 to 12 feet. 11/24/63

3. "As the President passed him about 20 feet away, Brehm said, he heard the first shot." 12/1/63

Why am I "desperate" to cite the man verbatim in statements he made almost immediately following the attack?

And the fact that he was still clapping at 285, proves that he has heard nothing he believed was a gunshot, prior to that point.

Jean Hill standing less than 20 feet to his left, said the limo was "almost abreast" of her position when she heard a series of shots.

Mary Moorman said, "As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all."

Kellerman reported a "flurry" of shots.

Greer said the second and third were almost simultaneous.

Even the WC admitted that MOST witnesses who stated an opinion on the subject said the final shots were close together. That's a perfect match with 285 and 313.

We both know that Woodward said the second and third were bunched and that the third was the headshot, but Bowers is another classic example. I'm sure you've seen him rap on the table in his interview with Lane. Did you also notice that in his testimony, he heard ALL three shots after the limo had disappeared from his sight, as the pergola blocked his view??

Pull out your DP diagram Pat. I see the limo passing out of Bowers view by the late 250's. What do you get? Pat, he heard the shots at 285, 312 and (app.) 319. Nothing else makes any sense.

I am not disputing that the last two shots were close together, Bob--they obviously were--or even that there was a shot at Z-285. What I am disputing is your use of Brehm's estimates to claim he didn't see Kennedy hit by the first shot he heard, and that he didn't hear any shots before Z-285. This is clearly not true. His descriptions of Kennedy's reaction to the first shot exactly parallels what happens after Z-190, and bears no resemblance to what happens after Z-285.

"I am not disputing that the last two shots were close together, Bob--they obviously were--or even that there was a shot at Z-285."

Ok, but previously you did dispute the shot at 285. Is this a change in your position?

As for when he heard what he thought was the first shot, do you really think that he would still be applauding five seconds after he heard a gunshot and saw JFK "stiffen"? Look, if you hear a gunshot, it is human nature to think that whatever symptoms you see then, were caused by the shot you just heard. JFK never really "stiffened" anyway. He slouched after he was hit.

That's why Clint Hill thought that JFK FIRST reacted to being hit at the same time that Hill leaped from the running board, and why Mrs. Kennedy thought her husband was "receiving a bullet" after she turned back toward him at 290, and why Nellie thought her own husband was hit then and she turned toward him, simultaneous with Jackie.

And would he have just gotten mixed up and mistaken almost 100 feet for 15?? And how could have have thought that three shots were fired as the limo only traveled 12 feet??

His statements were a perfect match with shots at 285, 312 and app. 319, just as Bowers were. (his rapping on the table was almost spot on).

Furthermore, J. Hill and Moorman reported essentially, the same thing he did and there is no evidence suggesting that he even discussed the shots with them.

And finally Pat, there is a REASON why he didn't hear the early shots. They really, really, REALLY were suppressed. That is why they didn't startle anyone and why almost no-one recognized the one they did hear, as a gunshot. There were two high powered rifle shots that day and you can easily see the startle reactions following both of them.

That's also why the Secret Service appeared "sluggish". They heard nothing that sounded like a gunshot until 285, after which all hell broke out.

You sound exactly like me in 1994. But a LOT of this old school stuff is just crap. If you really want to understand the shooting, you need to wipe the slate clean and start again. If you can find a way to do that, a lot of lights will come on. Not only that but you will acquire exciting new friends who will follow you around from forum to forum, urging you to jump off a tall building during rush hour :D

But if you believe nothing else I say, you can believe that it's all worth it.

Robert, I did wipe the slate clean when I started my comprehensive study of the witness statements. I went in thinking, like most, that the head shot was the last shot, but came out firmly convinced it was not.

I believe you are correct, but my research suggests that most witnesses did not hear that final shot, probably because it was drowned out by the much louder shot a fraction of a second earlier.

As the WC confirmed, there were a LOT of witnesses who said the final shots were closely bunched. If you read their testimonies carefully, I think you will find that most of them (but not all) who said anything about the explosive head wound, said it was the last shot.

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"Bob's reliance on Brehm's estimation of his distance from the limo to prop up that Brehm first heard a shot at Z-285 reeks of desperation"

I can't believe what I am hearing. Brehm was about 18 feet, give or take one or two, at frame 285.

And then you go on to cite Brehm. YOUR OWN QUOTATIONS:

1. "I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him" 11/22/63

2. “Unfortunately I was probably 15-20 feet away from the President when it happened"

3. Brehm expressed the opinion that between the first and third shots, the president’s car only traveled some 10 to 12 feet. 11/24/63

3. "As the President passed him about 20 feet away, Brehm said, he heard the first shot." 12/1/63

Why am I "desperate" to cite the man verbatim in statements he made almost immediately following the attack?

And the fact that he was still clapping at 285, proves that he has heard nothing he believed was a gunshot, prior to that point.

Jean Hill standing less than 20 feet to his left, said the limo was "almost abreast" of her position when she heard a series of shots.

Mary Moorman said, "As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all."

Kellerman reported a "flurry" of shots.

Greer said the second and third were almost simultaneous.

Even the WC admitted that MOST witnesses who stated an opinion on the subject said the final shots were close together. That's a perfect match with 285 and 313.

We both know that Woodward said the second and third were bunched and that the third was the headshot, but Bowers is another classic example. I'm sure you've seen him rap on the table in his interview with Lane. Did you also notice that in his testimony, he heard ALL three shots after the limo had disappeared from his sight, as the pergola blocked his view??

Pull out your DP diagram Pat. I see the limo passing out of Bowers view by the late 250's. What do you get? Pat, he heard the shots at 285, 312 and (app.) 319. Nothing else makes any sense.

I am not disputing that the last two shots were close together, Bob--they obviously were--or even that there was a shot at Z-285. What I am disputing is your use of Brehm's estimates to claim he didn't see Kennedy hit by the first shot he heard, and that he didn't hear any shots before Z-285. This is clearly not true. His descriptions of Kennedy's reaction to the first shot exactly parallels what happens after Z-190, and bears no resemblance to what happens after Z-285.

"I am not disputing that the last two shots were close together, Bob--they obviously were--or even that there was a shot at Z-285."

Ok, but previously you did dispute the shot at 285. Is this a change in your position?

As for when he heard what he thought was the first shot, do you really think that he would still be applauding five seconds after he heard a gunshot and saw JFK "stiffen"? Look, if you hear a gunshot, it is human nature to think that whatever symptoms you see then, were caused by the shot you just heard. JFK never really "stiffened" anyway. He slouched after he was hit.

That's why Clint Hill thought that JFK FIRST reacted to being hit at the same time that Hill leaped from the running board, and why Mrs. Kennedy thought her husband was "receiving a bullet" after she turned back toward him at 290, and why Nellie thought her own husband was hit then and she turned toward him, simultaneous with Jackie.

And would he have just gotten mixed up and mistaken almost 100 feet for 15?? And how could have have thought that three shots were fired as the limo only traveled 12 feet??

His statements were a perfect match with shots at 285, 312 and app. 319, just as Bowers were. (his rapping on the table was almost spot on).

Furthermore, J. Hill and Moorman reported essentially, the same thing he did and there is no evidence suggesting that he even discussed the shots with them.

And finally Pat, there is a REASON why he didn't hear the early shots. They really, really, REALLY were suppressed. That is why they didn't startle anyone and why almost no-one recognized the one they did hear, as a gunshot. There were two high powered rifle shots that day and you can easily see the startle reactions following both of them.

That's also why the Secret Service appeared "sluggish". They heard nothing that sounded like a gunshot until 285, after which all hell broke out.

You sound exactly like me in 1994. But a LOT of this old school stuff is just crap. If you really want to understand the shooting, you need to wipe the slate clean and start again. If you can find a way to do that, a lot of lights will come on. Not only that but you will acquire exciting new friends who will follow you around from forum to forum, urging you to jump off a tall building during rush hour :D

But if you believe nothing else I say, you can believe that it's all worth it.

Robert, I did wipe the slate clean when I started my comprehensive study of the witness statements. I went in thinking, like most, that the head shot was the last shot, but came out firmly convinced it was not.

I believe you are correct, but my research suggests that most witnesses did not hear that final shot, probably because it was drowned out by the much louder shot a fraction of a second earlier.

As the WC confirmed, there were a LOT of witnesses who said the final shots were closely bunched. If you read their testimonies carefully, I think you will find that most of them (but not all) who said anything about the explosive head wound, said it was the last shot.

Robert, many of the closest witnesses--Moorman, Hill, Brehm, Hudson, Summers, Chaney, Kinney--initially indicated they heard a shot just after the head shot. Others, such as Bill Decker, S.M. Holland, and the Franzens, noted an explosion in the car that can only have been the head shot, and claimed at least one shot followed.

This destroys the currently popular LN scenario, in which a solo head shot was fired almost 5 seconds after the previous shot.

Edited by Pat Speer

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You don't believe the Jackie was retrieving a piece of JFK's head from the trunk?

No, I don't. That's Conspiracy Myth #129.

Jackie herself said she didn't even remember going out onto the trunk at all. So she was never any help to anyone regarding this issue.

But even if she HAD gone to the trunk to get a piece of grisly skull/brain, my previous post in this thread

is (IMO) a perfectly reasonable explanation for how a piece of JFK's head could have ended up on the trunk after being struck from behind by a bullet.

Plus: the conspiracy theorists who seem to think that the trunk of the Presidential limousine was the ONLY possible place where Jackie could have obtained the piece of brain tissue that she handed to Dr. Marion Jenkins at Parkland Hospital are just dead wrong about that. We know that Mrs. Kennedy was holding onto JFK's head during the entire 5-minute drive to Parkland. So it's quite reasonable to believe that in her futile efforts to try and "hold his skull on", a piece of the President's head could have come off in Jackie's hands.

So your purpose isn't to determine the truth - but to debunk and any all conspiracy theories?

How is it a conspiracy theory that Jackie grabbed something off the trunk of the limo that can be clearly seen in the Z-film and what Agent Hill says is a piece of JFK's head?

Those things really happened, regardless of your extremist beliefs.

BK

NIX gif..b Bill as you can obviously see the gifs not working i shall be back..b

Edited by Bernice Moore

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You don't believe the Jackie was retrieving a piece of JFK's head from the trunk?

No, I don't. That's Conspiracy Myth #129.

Jackie herself said she didn't even remember going out onto the trunk at all. So she was never any help to anyone regarding this issue.

But even if she HAD gone to the trunk to get a piece of grisly skull/brain, my previous post in this thread

is (IMO) a perfectly reasonable explanation for how a piece of JFK's head could have ended up on the trunk after being struck from behind by a bullet.

Plus: the conspiracy theorists who seem to think that the trunk of the Presidential limousine was the ONLY possible place where Jackie could have obtained the piece of brain tissue that she handed to Dr. Marion Jenkins at Parkland Hospital are just dead wrong about that. We know that Mrs. Kennedy was holding onto JFK's head during the entire 5-minute drive to Parkland. So it's quite reasonable to believe that in her futile efforts to try and "hold his skull on", a piece of the President's head could have come off in Jackie's hands.

So your purpose isn't to determine the truth - but to debunk and any all conspiracy theories?

How is it a conspiracy theory that Jackie grabbed something off the trunk of the limo that can be clearly seen in the Z-film and what Agent Hill says is a piece of JFK's head?

Those things really happened, regardless of your extremist beliefs.

BK

FINGERS CROSSED BILL THIS one takes and WORKS, A NIX GIF THAT SHOWS PARTS OF HIS SCULL BEING THROWN, sorry caps, back in the direction of the trunk of xp 100..what jackie went after...imo..b Bill for some reason they are not being enabled to work within the post but if you click it, it opens within and you see the head parts the same with the one above, click and it comes up enabled,,,??...b

Edited by Bernice Moore

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