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David Von Pein

Discussing The Mindset Of Conspiracy Theorists

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Via the YouTube private message service, I recently had the following interesting discussion with Mr. Mike Picardi about conspiracy theorists and the JFK assassination:

-----------------------------------------

MIKE PICARDI SAID:

Request for Mr. Von Pein:

Date: Feb. 21, 2011

Hello Mr. Von Pein,

I'm a 34 year old business owner and screenwriter. I'm currently doing research for my current screenplay that centers around the world of conspiracy buffs, kooks, authors and debunkers. My protaganist is a debunker (much like you) who bumps into many conspiracy theorists along his travels.

As my main character is a man much like yourself, I think I could learn a great deal in regards to character profile/research from what your thoughts are on a number of things. Mainly, your disposition on the JFK CTers in particular. I recently phone interviewed Professor John McAdams who was very nice and generous with his time. He gave me an interesting point of view and it really helped me. I've been researching online and your fine website and blogs keep coming up.

I'm a former CTer (as a youngster) who now knows that Oswald was guilty as hell. I do not have the special outlook that folks like you and Prof. McAdams have towards dealing with prominent CTers.

I wanted to politely ask if perhaps I could ask you a few questions/interview you anytime that you would find convenient. I see how busy you must be and I certainly do not take offense if you are unable. I'm seeking a breif background, your spark of interest in the JFK case and your dealings with strong CTers.

I'm in Chicago and can provide references to prove who I am via my company website. I only offer that as some I've requested interviews with have been afraid that I'm a kook.

I really enjoy your JFK website and have gotten much needed info from it - thanks!

Please respond if you have a moment and I will look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks,

Mike Picardi

===============================================

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Hi Mike,

I'd be happy to answer your questions. I'd rather do it via e-mail/written correspondence. I find that I can articulate my thoughts better in print.

I can answer one of your questions right now.....

You asked:

What provided my "spark of interest" in the JFK case?

That occurred for me in 1981 when I bought and read David Lifton's fairy tale book of nonsense entitled "Best Evidence". I have a blog on that book, here:

http://Best-Evidence.blogspot.com

I know that that review isn't as in-depth as some who have written reviews for it, but it cuts to the chase regarding just how absurd Lifton's thesis really is. And he is still postulating that same basic "body alteration" theory 30 years later too. You can find some of Lifton's more recent interviews here (near the bottom of the page):

http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/ghostwriting.html

Fortunately, I wasn't persuaded by Lifton's book, but I did find it fascinating reading nonetheless.

And from that point on, my interest in JFK (and particularly his assassination) grew and grew.

I really haven't read all that many physical books on the JFK case, although I have read most of the "lone assassin" books, plus a few conspiracy ones too, with most of my recent information about the case coming mainly from online sources. Mary Ferrell's website and "History Matters" are invaluable resources when it comes to finding documents of all kinds re the assassination.

And, of course, I have gathered a lot of (false) information from talking and arguing with the "CTers" (as we LNers call them) on the Internet.

I'm sure if you've looked through some of my blogs (where I like to archive just about everything I write online), you can tell just exactly what kind of nutjobs and conspiracy kooks I've dealt with the last few years. Some of these people are just unbelievable in the things they believe.

Do you realize that a prominent CTer (Jim DiEugenio) actually believes that witnesses Buell Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle just MADE UP their story about Oswald carrying a large bag on the morning of 11/22/63? That is how desperate some of these people are to exonerate Mr. Oswald. It's crazy.

In short, it's my belief after conversing with several of the kookier conspiracy theorists on Internet forums that those type of "outer fringe" CTers can never be swayed to let go of their theories, particularly their notion that double-killer Lee Oswald was merely an innocent "patsy" and never shot anyone (not even J.D. Tippit!) on November 22, 1963.

That type of "Anybody But Oswald" theorist WANTS a conspiracy to exist so badly that they are willing to call EVERYONE "liars" or "cover-up agents" who block their path toward their "patsy" goal.

A great example of this is the previously-mentioned James DiEugenio, who is a very smart and articulate individual who possesses an immense amount of knowledge about all of the 1960s assassinations (JFK, RFK, & MLK) -- and, btw, not surprisingly, he thinks that all of those murders were conspiracies.

I've argued with him many times since 2008, and have noticed that there doesn't seem to be ANY limit to the number of plotters and co-conspirators and after-the-fact cover-uppers that he believes were involved in wrong-doing re JFK's death. He keeps adding more and more plotters and liars with each passing month and year.

I've noticed that there is something inherent about the JFK murder case that makes ordinarily very smart and sensible and rational people somehow want to turn off their "common sense" switch in their brain, so that they are now open and willing to accept almost any implausible theory that comes down the pike.

David Lifton is another good example. He's certainly a very smart person. I don't deny that for a minute. But he got involved in this (JFK) case back in 1966, and somehow all of his normal logic and common sense was thrown down the toilet after he talked with some witnesses who told him some things that he should have realized COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

It was physically impossible for the things Lifton theorizes about in his book to have actually happened, but Mr. Lifton thinks they definitely DID happen nonetheless -- e.g., body alteration, casket-switching, JFK's body spirited off of Air Force One in full view of many witnesses who HAD to have been there, and--get this--his belief that ALL of the gunshots in Dealey Plaza came from the FRONT! ALL of them! This, despite the BACK WOUNDS being suffered by both Kennedy and John Connally. Can it GET any sillier than this? And yet we have a very smart person like David S. Lifton writing about such silliness, year after year.

It's almost as if there's a built-in mental barricade that prevents such conspiracy theorists from being able to step back and say to themselves -- 'Hey, this is kinda crazy, isn't it?'

But they never ask themselves that logical question. Instead, they throw away all garden-variety common sense when it comes to so many aspects of the JFK assassination (as you have no doubt seen, if you've looked at some of the discussions I've had with people like DiEugenio and the total nutcases I've battled at the Usenet newsgroups).

If you have additional questions, I'd be glad to answer your inquiries.

And you picked a good man to interview previously too -- Professor John McAdams. He's a man who knows far more about the case than I do, and always approaches things with common sense and logic at the forefront. He has a new book coming this year which I look forward to seeing -- all about the way "CTers" think. It should be enlightening.

For more insight into Mr. McAdams' JFK thinking, I can direct you to yet another webpage of mine that I created that includes many hours of radio debates on the JFK assassination that John participated in. Those audio files are here:

http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2010/10/radio-debates-featuring-john-mcadams.html

Thanks for writing, and thank you also for your kind words about my sites and blogs. I'm just glad to know that at least a few people out there are getting some use out of them.

Best regards,

David Von Pein

http://DavidVonPein.blogspot.com

===============================================

MIKE PICARDI SAID:

Do you believe it's possible that CTers (the otherwise intelligent ones) ever "wake up" and make a decision to keep the CT stuff going out of pride, books, money? What do you believe a guy like DiEugenio would do if he figured it all out today? Would he admit it?

===============================================

DVP SAID:

Hi again Mike,

I think it's quite possible (or even likely) that most life-long (and long-time) conspiracy theorists do, indeed, "keep the CT stuff going" due to the combination of things you just suggested. And particularly "pride".

It certainly isn't an easy thing to do to admit you were wrong about something that you have studied for many years (such as the JFK assassination), especially if that person has written millions of words, articles, and books about the topic of conspiracy in the case.

So, I really cannot envision a person like Robert Groden, who practically lives in Dealey Plaza on the weekends trying to sell his completely-wrong conspiracy-slanted books and videos, ever being able to wake up one day and say to himself--or anyone else--"I was wrong; Oswald did it after all". He has too much to lose if he ever did that.

Now, that same type scenario can easily be applied to LNers such as myself and Professor John McAdams, too. I.E., if we were to ever become convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that a conspiracy DID exist in the JFK case, would we be able to swallow our pride and throw away years of research and blog posts and articles, etc., and admit to the world that we were wrong and we have now joined the ranks of the conspiracists?

I'll be very frank with you, Mike -- when studying upon that question, I truly cannot give you an answer one way or the other (as for me personally).

I can't answer such a question, because I have never reached that point regarding my belief in any kind of a believable conspiracy (although there are JFK researchers, like Anthony Marsh for one, who have accused me of actually believing in a conspiracy--deep down--but I simply won't come out and admit it--because I'm a "propaganda" machine, per some CTers I've talked to).

But I'd like to BELIEVE that I would have the integrity to admit I was wrong if the day ever arrived when I was confronted with evidence that I truly thought WAS credible evidence of a conspiracy (and not just simply another "theory" spouted by the next in a long line of CTers with a book and a theory to sell). If that day ever comes, I guess I'll find out.

But thus far, I haven't been convinced of any large-scale conspiracy and cover-up, despite the efforts of people like Jim DiEugenio, Mark Lane, Oliver Stone, and Bob Groden.

Those people haven't come close to proving beyond a reasonable doubt that ALL of the vast amount of evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald was faked, planted, or otherwise tainted. And to believe in THAT kind of "It's All Fake" theory is, quite frankly, to believe in miracles of the first order. And miracles don't happen very often.

===============================================

MIKE PICARDI SAID:

One more follow up question to that - I believe that you can NOT change a CTer's mind using the facts of the case at all. You must trick them into engaging into a lesson on how to think critically without their knowledge, of course, and maybe with that newfound talent, they will look at the case and their claims again with a different viewpoint. Do you agree? I would love your thoughts on this if you do not mind.

===============================================

DVP SAID:

That's an interesting line of thought, Mike. "Tricking" the conspiracy theorists into thinking in a reasonable and logical manner.

To tell you the truth, I had never thought about approaching the conspiracy theorists in such a manner. But it does sound like a good technique to use. But I'm a little dubious about having any success at "tricking" any of the hardened and hard-boiled CTers on the Internet into thinking in a totally different manner about a murder case that many of them have practically spent a lifetime studying.

From my experience with online CTers, I've learned that the thought processes of many of the conspiracy theorists about THIS particular subject (the JFK assassination) are just not the same as their thought processes when it comes to other topics.

As I said in my first message to you, it seems as if THIS CASE is a one-of-a-kind subject that I have never seen duplicated (although, lately, I think the subject of "9/11" might come close, what with the various nutty kooks who now want to believe that NO PLANES AT ALL hit the World Trade Center or the Pentagon).

But something weird seems to happen to certain people when the JFK assassination topic comes up. A person who would probably, under different circumstances, not be so willing to toss in the trash EVERY LAST PIECE OF EVIDENCE against the defendant (Oswald in this case), is more than happy (even eager) to accept the notion that ALL of the evidence pointing to Oswald is somehow corrupt.

To me, that type of thought process is just nutty, and particularly when we're talking about TWO murders that Oswald was charged with--and not just one. Because a lot of these conspiracy kooks (the otherwise intelligent DiEugenio included) also want to pretend that ALL of the evidence that exists against Oswald in the Tippit murder is also phony and intentionally tainted -- including every one of the many eyewitnesses who positively identified Lee Oswald as either the one and only killer of Officer J.D. Tippit or the one and only person seen running away from the vicinity of Tippit's murder.

Crazy conspiracy talk, huh? Yes, IMO, it is.

===============================================

MIKE PICARDI SAID:

I did NOT know that DiEugenio made those claims about Frazier and the curtain rods - it's almost sad to me (still a bit funny). Does he guess as to why they lied about it?

===============================================

DVP SAID:

Yes, DiEugenio at least tries to explain his very flimsy reasons for why both Buell Wesley Frazier AND Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a large paper bag -- with Jim D. claiming (without a SPECK of evidence to support this silly claim, mind you) that the Dallas Police forced Frazier to tell that whopper of a lie about the bag (and the cops apparently forced Randle to tell a similar lie).

Below is a direct quote from DiEugenio on the subject (which is contained within a quoted passage that I wrote in an Internet post last year):

"[Jim DiEugenio] said on Black Op Radio that Buell Wesley Frazier had been "pressured into doing what he did" by the Dallas Police Department. And the "doing what he did" portion of that quote is referring to DiEugenio's belief (at least as of January 2010) that Frazier had been "forced" (DiEugenio's word) into telling a lie about seeing Lee Oswald carrying a bag into the Book Depository on November 22, 1963. Quoting DiEugenio (which can be heard at the 5:42 mark in [the video that appears on the webpage linked below]): "I think Wesley Frazier was pressured into doing what he did, and the Dallas police forced him into doing it because they needed somebody besides [Howard] Brennan to pin the thing on Oswald." -- James DiEugenio; 1/14/2010"

http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2010/08/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-46.html

===============================================

MIKE PICARDI SAID:

Again, I thank you for helping me out and I hit your website almost every night - really great stuff. I especially like the pages where you take on CTers claims, one by one.

===============================================

DVP SAID:

Thank you very much, Mike. I've enjoyed talking with you. Write anytime.

Best Regards,

David Von Pein

===============================================

MIKE PICARDI SAID:

Hi Mr. Von Pein,

Very interesting answers to all of my questions and I really appreciate the time you spent responding to me.

My own conversion story relates to some of what you wrote in regards to 9/11 truthers.

I was a CTer because, as a kid, I read all of the conspiracy books. I would always skip over the books that were pro Oswald - after all, I wanted to learn about the conspiracy as that is what interested me. After years of reading and interest, I was still NOT aware of facts of the case but I sure knew most of the different conspiracy theories.

I left the subject alone for years, then 9/11 happened and so did "truthers". I was disgusted at what I saw and read, but something sounded familiar - the same "passion for the truth" and the same acceptance of nearly or totally impossible things, and it was the same stuff I had read in the JFK CT books.

I decided to look at the facts of the case this time and it was a matter of days when I realized what happened that day - Oswald did it. There are things we will never know...Oswald still did it. Some FBI, Dallas Cops, Secret Service, etc. could of done a better job - Oswald STILL did it.

I give myself a break for believing in the conspiracy as I was young. I also had the integrity to admit how wrong I was.

One point that I've formulated on my own is this - (talking to a CTer) Let's say for a minute that Oswald DID do it and it pretty much happened the way the WC said (giving a break for the human factor and imperfections), then how do you think the evidence WOULD look? Wouldn't it look JUST like it does? What would you expect it to look like if Oswald DID do it?

The above worked really well on a CTer at my work and he often cites it as a spark of his conversion to a LNer. So, I just wanted to share it with you.

This strange phenom of an otherwise intelligent person (like DiEugenio) suspending logic in this case alone is something that fascinates me to dig into. I actually don't mean to pick on Jim DiEugenio at all, as I only cite him as I heard him on a debate and he seemed very smart and well informed to me.

I can't thank you enough for all your time and I will certainly send you some more questions as I write this screenplay.

Chicago Lone Nutter - Mike Picardi

===============================================

DVP SAID:

Thanks for your latest message, Mike. I appreciate it.

And good luck with your screenplay.

And remember to have your main character in your screenplay ask the following question when confronted with every conspiracy theorist he meets who thinks that President Kennedy was struck with bullets that came from the FRONT of his limousine and who also believes that Lee Harvey Oswald was merely an innocent patsy. That very logical question is this one:

If the conspirators who orchestrated the murder of President John F. Kennedy wanted to frame a lone person named Oswald for the murder, then why on Earth would those plotters/conspirators have even CONSIDERED for a single moment the idea of shooting at JFK from the Grassy Knoll in Dealey Plaza?

Such a multi-gun plot that ALSO involved framing Lee Oswald (who was located in the Book Depository at the time of the shooting) is one of the most ludicrous and bound-to-fail assassination schemes I have ever heard of.

But many, many conspiracy theorists (including the likes of Oliver Stone, Jim Garrison, Mark Lane, James DiEugenio, and Robert Groden) actually believe that such a plot was planned IN ADVANCE of November 22, 1963.

That is just one example (among many others) of conspiracy theorists trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. And it doesn't matter how utterly illogical or outright stupid such a plot might be from the get-go, the conspiracy mongers who actually support such nonsense will pretend it is the truth from now until doomsday (with Oliver Stone actually making a multi-million-dollar motion picture that depicts just such an idiotic multi-gun, one-patsy assassination scenario).

I'm always amazed by the number of people who fail to see the built-in illogic that exists within such a "multi-gun, solo-patsy" plot. More conspiracists who think Oswald was an innocent patsy and who also think JFK was hit by frontal gunshots in Dealey Plaza should ask themselves the question I posed above. If they asked that question more often, maybe some garden-variety common sense would begin to seep into their skewed thinking.

Regards,

David Von Pein

Edited by David Von Pein

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So-called "conspiracy theorists" are a dime a dozen. They are of no consequence whatsoever. They are as damaging to the discovery of the truth as are the

lone nutters with their penchant for idiotic thinking based in a deep need to cling to the illusion that they live in the best of all possible worlds. At least the

CT's have no such illusion. Unfortunately, they believe the opposite and equally inaccurate scenario is true.

However, sincere historians, scholars, and students of this case do not theorize irresponsibly. Although there is no "theory" of conspiracy in the JFK assassination

that is without flaw, still there was, in fact, a conspiracy.

It is not necessary for us to prove that all of the conspiracy theories ever postulated are true in order for us to demonstrate that there was a conspiracy. All we

needed to do--and have done--is prove that one theory (the official theory of the WCR) was false.

And that was easy.

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All we needed to do--and have done--is prove that one theory (the official theory of the WCR) was false.

You and your fellow conspiracy buffs have proved no such thing.

From now and for the rest of time, the Warren Commission's conclusions will stand as the best and most accurate representation of the assassination, and Lee Harvey Oswald will forever be stamped as JFK's murderer in most history books (despite the hobby of conspiracists who insist on ignoring every last piece of evidence that points toward LHO).

And the WC's conclusions will live on forever because those conclusions are accurate ones -- i.e., Oswald killed Kennedy. Period. And no one on the globe has ever proved otherwise.

Edited by David Von Pein

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All we needed to do--and have done--is prove that one theory (the official theory of the WCR) was false.

You and your fellow conspiracy buffs have proved no such thing.

From now and for the rest of time, the Warren Commission's conclusions will stand as the best and most accurate representation of the assassination, and Lee Harvey Oswald will forever be stamped as JFK's murderer in most history books (despite the hobby of conspiracists who insist on ignoring every last piece of evidence that points toward LHO).

And the WC's conclusions will live on forever because those conclusions are accurate ones -- i.e., Oswald killed Kennedy. Period. And no one on the globe has ever proved otherwise.

In American jurisprudence it is NOT necessary to prove innocence, rather it is necessary to prove guilt. Lee Harvey Oswald never stood trial, never faced his accusers, never was he judged by a jury of his own peers. The Warren Commission proved nothing.

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The Warren Commission proved nothing.

The above quote is one of the silliest comments I've encountered in a long time. Thanks, Greg.

Edited by David Von Pein

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The Warren Commission proved nothing.

The above quote is one of the silliest comments I've encountered in a long time. Thanks, Greg.

from the planet of KFC, we have heard the bone chilling assumption from DVP, LHO stood trial before his peers. Gotta love it, perhaps promoting and selling 4 pound books on the internet has its good points, eh son?

Perhaps Rosemary (Bugliosi's sidekick) is giving you a hand on this one too?

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Guest Tom Scully

Yup, John McAdams seems like a great guy...reasonable, scholarly....

http://mu-warrior.blogspot.com/2011/01/does-jfk-assassination-conspiracy.html#comments

John McAdams said...

It's difficult to read your pieces after you write off a student organization that promotes worldwide peace headed by a Jesuit priest.

Are you actually asserting that student organizations are always right?

Are you actually asserting that a "Jesuit priest" is alway right?

As for a "message of peace:" that's not what the organization is about. It's about left-wing politics, and hating America.

1:48 PM

David, I am convinced there is not a curious "bone" in either your or McAdams's body; hence I am puzzled by your questions about the CT "mindset".

I know you have not studied the concealed details and unanswered question left behind by the WC investigators and the FBI, because if you had, you would have a reasonable point of view. Only a questioning, skeptical POV can be called reasonable, considering the unresolved implications of the small sample of info supporting the infiltration of the WC investigation by Henry Crown "interests"; Albert E. Jenner and General Dynamics industrial security manager and ex-FBI agent, IB Hale and his wife Virginia, and son Robert, the former son-in-law of John B. Connally. Wouldn't it follow that an investigation with any integrity would publicly reveal that the mother-in-law of shooting victim John B. Connally's gunshot victim, daughter was instrumental in getting Lee Harvey Oswald employment at Leslie Welding?

The "poster boy" for all the drivel you so passionately embrace and PUSH as "truth" declared,

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=albert+jenner+conspiracy&sa=N&tbs=nws:1,ar:1#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min%3A1964%2Ccd_max%3A1966%2Cbks%3A1&q=coincidences+made+it+seem+most+likely+that+the+assassination+of&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=albert+jenner+conspiracy&gs_rfai=&psj=1&fp=80f78c692ae3c498

Federal bar news: Volume 13

Federal Bar Association - 1966 - Snippet view

In his address, Mr. Jenner stated that a series of extraordinary coincidences made it seem most likely that the assassination of President Kennedy was the work of one man — Lee Harvey Oswald. "After months of intensive research, the reading of some 40000 pages of material assembled by units of the federal government, and the questioning of scores of persons, including Oswald's wife, we came to the conclusion that there was no conspiracy, either domestic or foreign," Jenner said...

By Albert E. Jenner's own criteria..."a series of extraordinary coincidences"...your certainty and your baiting of those who disagree with your incurious acceptance of what he and the WC Commissioners fed you as "findings" seems contrived and disingenuous. Considering the following information, what on earth could possibly be motivating you?

http://articles.sfgate.com/1996-11-18/business/17787252_1_jfk-s-assassination-construction-firm-federal-contracts/3

November 18, 1996|By JONATHAN MARSHALL

...A postscript for assassination buffs: No individual stood to lose more from the TFX scandal than Chicago investor Henry Crown, who owned 20 percent of General Dynamics. His personal attorney, Albert Jenner, became a senior staff attorney on the Warren Commission, in charge of investigating the possibility of a conspiracy....

...Let the record show that Albert E. Jenner, Jr., was in truth, a "mob lawyer" who worked diligently to protect the Dorfmans from at least as far back as the 1953 hearings documented in thiis post, through his representation of Michael Frank Darling, into the 1970's when he represented Allen Dorfman directly. Jenner had to know, as a result of the 1953 hearing where Jimmy Hoffa and thte Teamster Central States Welfare Fund were directly intertwined with the efforts of Jenner's client, Darling, funneling money from the unions to the Dorfman's, at the direct expense of the union members and their employers, that it was a mistake in 1960 to.:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=1457&view=findpost&p=187543

In The Matter of The Application for Playboy-Elsinore Associates

For a Casino License

Decided: April 7, 1982

.....Page 7

B. Areas of Concern Identified By The Division

....Stanford Clinton again withdrew as counsel for the (Teamsters) PENSION FUND and the firm of Thompson, Raymond, Mayer, Jenner and Bloomstein was retained in order to render legal advice to the Trustees of the Fund and to execute the appropriate legal documents. ....

....After difficult negotiations, and Trustees of the PENSION FUND approved a revised proposal....The loan was executed on June 24, 1960.

The Division in its summation noted some compliamentary language used by James R. Hoffa in referring to the Pritzker family at a Board of Trustees meeting of the PENSION FUND. This reference was to the fiscal responsibility of the Pritzkers....

...3. 1966-1970 Loans

Hearings‎ - Page 83

United States. Congress. House. Committee on Education - 1953

... 122 Darling, M. Frank, Chicago, 111., accompanied by counsel, AE Jenner and

... 111., accompanied by counsel, Stanford Clinton, Chicago, 111 71 Dorfman, ...

TESTIMONY OF M. FRANK DARLING, PRESIDENT AND BUSINESS MANAGER, LOCAL 1031,

INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD 01 ELECTRICAL WORKERS, CHICAGO, ILL., ACCOMPANIED

BY HIS COUNSEL, ALBERT E. JENNER AND JAMES A. SPRAWL, CHICAGO, ILL.

Mr. SMITH. I want to make it clear that you are the witness and that you have a right to

consult with your counsel before you answer any questions, but the lawyers,

your attorneys, are not going to make any answers.

Mr. JENNER. I never have....

...Mr. DARLING. Paul, I had already known for some time. I had seen him at federation meetings, Chicago Federation of Labor meetings, from time to time; Allen I had never met to that time. I believe it was in '49.

Mr. MCKENNA. Approximately when in 1949?

Mr. DARLING. That must have been in the early part of '49.

Mr. MCKENNA. The early part of '49?

Mr. DARLING. Yes, in the spring or before spring even.

Mr. MCKENNA. That was before, then, the Dorfmans were licensed as an insurance agency?

Mr. DARLING. I think it is. I'm trying to remember just how long we have had insurance. I think Zy2 years. Would that make it the early part of '49 ?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DARLING. The first company covered by the Union Casualty was in May. ...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCEQxQEwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fviewer%3Fa%3Dv%26q%3Dcache%3AUT_3GJs06dIJ%3Awww.aarclibrary.org%2Fpublib%2Fjfk%2Fwc%2Fwcvols%2Fwh23%2Fpdf%2FWH23_CE_1891.pdf%2BHALE%2B%25226475%2BFortune%2522%2Bleslie%2Bwelding%26hl%3Den%26gl%3Dus%26pid%3Dbl%26srcid%3DADGEESjN8SENbNudR6m28fmmfY1YsHlLAcFOwEzuQMn4BoFAvoazUAwHJGcoL0HQRVCUq9yRDTHb6W7OOPeAF35M-ab-r2gC951O5pbF6ioM8g_GzgZNJ9TrLehMs_1xITayIyBL0HcN%26sig%3DAHIEtbQCZg0oGd6y2oTsFoh11ayuFngT3w&rct=j&q=HALE%20%226475%20Fortune%22%20leslie%20welding&ei=LgBmTc72J4O5tge6l8niDA&usg=AFQjCNGPRqFxk0gYQflFH5xyK2IdMZ2_UQ&cad=rja

Warren Commission, Volume XXII: CE 1389 - FBI report dated May 19, 1964 ...

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View

Mrs. Virginia Hale, 6475 Fortune Road, employed in the Job Placement Division of Texas Employment Commission, furnished the following information:

She recalled LEE HARVEY OSWALD quite well and she sent him out on the job to the Les11e welding company.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0363b.htm

and... CE 1891 - Warren Commission, Volume XXIII: CE 1891 - FBI report

http://www.icsahome.com/docview_elib.asp?Subject=The+strange+story+of+%27Papa+Pilgrim%27

The strange story of 'Papa Pilgrim'

Star-Telegram (TX), December 9, 2007

By Jack Douglas Jr., Staff Writer

The strange story of ‘Papa Pilgrim’

Dec 9, 2007 …

A life off the beaten path

Robert "Bobby" Hale, the Scripture-quoting "Papa Pilgrim" who used the Bible to pound subservience into his 15 children, went before a judge in Alaska last month, looking old and frail beyond his 66 years as he learned his punishment -- 14 years behind bars -- for sexually assaulting one of his daughters.

Prison time is only the latest chapter in the bizarre life of Hale, the son of a legendary TCU football player. He grew up in the west Fort Worth neighborhood of Ridglea Hills, attended Arlington Heights High School and, at age 18, eloped with the 16-year-old daughter of one of the most powerful and famous politicians in Texas history....

...Young wife's death

Hale was a senior at Arlington Heights High when he eloped with his girlfriend, Kathleen Connally, a junior. They married in Ardmore, Okla., moved into a modest apartment in Tallahassee, Fla., and began a marriage of young hope.

It would last just over a month.

Kathleen Connally Hale died April 28, 1959, from a shotgun blast behind her right ear. She was pregnant. Her husband spent the next night in jail, a Star-Telegram report said at the time. But the death was later ruled an accident, caused when the gun discharged as Hale tried to take it from his wife.

Described as incoherent in the hours after his wife's death, Hale was said to have later passed a lie-detector test, and his fingerprints were not found on the gun, despite the report that he had grabbed for it. So, authorities determined, Kathleen died during "a little squabble like kids will have."

It meant an end to Hale's brief role as son-in-law to John Connally, then a confidant to Sen. Lyndon Baines Johnson and an attorney for Fort Worth millionaires Sid Richardson and Perry Bass. John Connally later became governor of Texas and was wounded in the assassination of President Kennedy.

Connally, who died in 1993, wrote in his autobiography that he had been told that there may have been a suicide pact between his firstborn child and her new husband, and that "Bobby backed out."....

All-American's family

and the home on tree-lined Fortune Road in west Fort Worth where Bobby Hale grew up with his twin brother, Billy, and younger brother, Tommy.

Their mother, Virginia, was an accomplished bridge player. Their father, I.B. Hale, was an All-American lineman for the Texas Christian University Horned Frogs football team and its captain during the team's undefeated national championship season in 1938. He was a good friend and college roommate of another famous TCU player, Davey O'Brien.

I.B. Hale was a big man in town and in Texas. After TCU, he turned down an offer to play for the Washington Redskins so he could coach at Kilgore High School. After two seasons, Hale became an FBI agent, then security chief at the General Dynamics fighter jet plant in Fort Worth.

Bobby Hale and his brothers were neighborhood fixtures in Ridglea Hills. "He was just a regular little kid," said Bob Bryden, 92, who still lives on Fortune Road. "They played down here all the time."

After the death of Kathleen Connally Hale, Bryden said, he saw Bobby Hale outside his parents' house and offered his condolences....

4305631855_d98f62a97d_o.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_C._Clark#Controversy

Tom C. Clark

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...Controversy

...Drew Pearson hinted in his syndicated column in October 1963 that Clark had told him that the FBI confirmed Ragen's accusations of Chicago mob control by leading businessmen and politicians. This was confirmed in the posthumous publication, eleven years later, of Drew Pearson's Diaries, 1949–1959; Tom Clark had told Pearson that Ragen stated that Henry Crown, the Hilton Hotels chain, and Walter Annenberg controlled the mob.[8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16]

Despite the disturbing information about Henry Crown, et al, Drew Pearson claimed was provided to him by Clark in 1946, Justice Tom Clark appointed Crown's son, John, as one of two of his 1956 Supreme Court session law clerks.[17] In December, 1963, Chief Justice Earl Warren, acting as head of the newly formed Presidential Commission investigating the death of President Kennedy, suggested that Henry Crown's attorney, Albert E. Jenner, Jr., who also, at that time employed Crown's son, John at Jenner's Chicago law firm, be appointed as a senior assistant Warren Commission counsel. Warren gave his fellow commissioners the names of two men who approved of Jenner's appointment, Tom C Clark and Dean Acheson. [18]

The appointment of Jenner to investigate whether either Oswald or Ruby acted alone or conspired with others remains controversial.[19][20]

Henry Crown and his close friend, Sam Nanini, were reported in March, 1977 to have had relationships with organized crime.[21][22]

As Attorney General, Tom Clark was accused of impropriety in the early parole of convicted Chicago crime boss, Louis Campagna and three others.[23] Sam Nanini wrote a letter in 1947 to the federal bureau of prisons advocating parole for Campagna. [24][25]

One of the prisoners paroled in 1947 scandal was John Rosselli.:

aarc_fbi584_16_0013_0002.jpg

Links to images of two related, FBI documents:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-6258-1237241662.jpg

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-6258-1237241674.jpg

... http://docs.newsbank.com/g/GooglePM/BG/lib00065,0EADEAEFD5862E0D.html

THE ORDEAL OF LESTER CROWN -

New York Times - Dec 7, 1986

"Meanwhile, seven officers and employees of Material Service were padding their expense accounts -''at the direction of Crown,'' according to the Government report - and reimbursing their boss. The project was cut short when Material Service was subpoenaed by a Federal grand jury investigating corruption in the industry.

The family turned to Albert E. Jenner Jr., a lawyer and longtime friend who is on the board of General Dynamics. ''Whenever the kids got into trouble,'' Jenner says, ''they never bothered the old man. They talked to me, and I got them out of trouble.'' In return for his cooperation with the grand jury, Lester Crown was granted immunity from prosecution.

In May 1974, Crown was elected to the board of directors of General Dynamics, and two months later the Defense Department approved his application for a top-secret clearance. The results of the grand jury proceedings did not become public until December. Neither the members of the board nor the Pentagon had been told of the bribery case..."

Edited by Tom Scully

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Jesus Horacio Christ, what a bunch of convoluted, totally unimportant crap Tom Scully posted above. The nonsense you CTers believe in is staggering. And every time you open your mouths, you prove that Vince Bugliosi is 100% correct.....

"The conspiracy community regularly seizes on one slip of the tongue, misunderstanding, or slight discrepancy to defeat twenty pieces of solid evidence; accepts one witness of theirs, even if he or she is a provable nut, as being far more credible than ten normal witnesses on the other side; treats rumors, even questions, as the equivalent of proof; leaps from the most minuscule of discoveries to the grandest of conclusions; and insists that the failure to explain everything perfectly negates all that is explained." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi

Edited by David Von Pein

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Jesus Horacio Christ, what a bunch of convoluted, totally unimportant crap Tom Scully posted above.

Pot meet kettle.

(PS: No offense, Tom)

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Guest Tom Scully

Jesus Horacio Christ, what a bunch of convoluted, totally unimportant crap Tom Scully posted above. The nonsense you CTers believe in is staggering. And every time you open your mouths, you prove that Vince Bugliosi is 100% correct.....

"The conspiracy community regularly seizes on one slip of the tongue, misunderstanding, or slight discrepancy to defeat twenty pieces of solid evidence; accepts one witness of theirs, even if he or she is a provable nut, as being far more credible than ten normal witnesses on the other side; treats rumors, even questions, as the equivalent of proof; leaps from the most minuscule of discoveries to the grandest of conclusions; and insists that the failure to explain everything perfectly negates all that is explained." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi

I remind you David.....your Albert E. Jenner, Jr., ruled out any conspiracy, based on a large number of coincidences. I rule out nothing, except perhaps your capacity for continued denial of the actual, documented details. In your tiny universe, is everyone except Oswald, exempt from any degree of official or journalistic inquiry? I've posted only well supported facts, and you reply with insults and invective. These facts on display here will trigger a curious response in reasonable people as yet unfamiliar with them. They will probably compare the linked information and document images to your reactions. How well do you think you'll do, in that competition?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Walker_Bush_Ellis

Nancy Walker Bush Ellis

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biography

...Nancy Bush married Alexander B. Ellis II (1922–1989), an executive with insurance firm Fairfield & Ellis (which merged into Corroon & Black,[2] now a part of Willis Group Holdings Ltd.). Wedding guests included James Buckley, John V. Lindsay, John Chafee and Nancy's brother George;[3] Office of Strategic Services agent William B. Macomber, Jr. was best man.[4]...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J._Devine

Thomas J. Devine

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

....Devine married Alexandra Mills of Hobe Sound, FL, in April, 1973. William B. Macomber, Jr., best man in the 1946 wedding of Nancy Walker Bush Ellis, was Devine's best man.[3] Macomber's brother, Celanese Corporation president, John D. Macomber, appointed Devine as a vice president (1973).[4] [5] John D. Macomber is the longtime mentor and business associate of Michael L. Ainslie[6], second husband[7] of Suzanne B. Hooker, daughter of Edward Gordon Hooker[8], the deceased school roommate of George HW Bush and step-nephew and oil exploration business partner[9][10] of George de Mohrenschildt, a petroleum geologist and Professor who befriended Lee Harvey Oswald in the summer of 1962 and maintained that friendship until Oswald's death two days after the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy.

Devine's friendship and "close relationship" with Bush Sr. continued as Bush was first made US Ambassador to the United Nations (from 1971-1973), then nominated as Director of the CIA (November 1975).[11]...

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=cia+careerist+macomber&btnG=Search+Books

Dr. Kissinger's Role in Wiretapping: Hearings Before the Committee on ...‎ - Page 392

by United States Congress. Senate. Committee on Foreign Relations, United States, Senate, Congress, Committee on Foreign Relations - Wiretapping - 1974 - 409 pages

Some press accounts appeared to indicate that CIA careerist Macomber, ostensibly

representing the Department of State, J. Fred Buzhardt, representing the....

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=two+other+aids%2C+and+Allan+Dulles%2C+brother+and+head&btnG=Search&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8

DULLES UNDER KNIFE 2 1/2 HRS.

Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 4, 1956

A dip- assistant, William B. Macomber and two other aids, and Allan Dulles, brother and head of the central intelli. genre agency, also were pres- ent.

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tab=wn&q=wb+macomber+miss+bernau

WB Macomber Jr. Weds Miss Bernau

- New York Times - Dec 29, 1963

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Essay_-_Otepka_RFK_Sheridan_Oswald

Otto Otepka, Robert F. Kennedy, Walter Sheridan, and Lee Oswald

by Joan Mellen, 4 Sep 2007

3768659684_4b5737b120_o.jpg

.....Otepka at first believed that his ordeal was based on his having denied security clearances to some Kennedy appointees. This was not the case. Rather, his removal from authority was based upon his development of a file relating to one “Lee Oswald, tourist,” a name on a list of “defectors.” The quotation marks were added by the CIA itself for an October 24, 1960 document that marks the beginning of Otto Otepka’s investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald.

“DEFECTORS”

It began that October, 1960, even before John F. Kennedy was elected. Several offices at the Department of State undertook to identify and research a list of Americans who had defected to the Soviet Union, to Soviet bloc nations, or to Communist China. The assignment to check on Oswald, and to explore whether his name appeared in any existing security files, came to Otepka as chief security evaluator at State. Otepka contacted the FBI at once. This was routine. The CIA was next on his list.

At the Department of State’s “Office of Intelligence/Resources and Coordination,” Robert B. Elwood wrote to Richard Bissell, CIA’s then DDP [Deputy Director, Plans, a designation synonymous with the clandestine service]. The subject of his letter was “Request For Information Concerning American ‘Defectors.’” The quotation marks raise an implied question: were they really defectors or were they American agents introduced into the Soviet Union working for CIA Counter Intelligence?

It became a variation on La Ronde. The files danced from Agency to Agency, component to component. Bissell shipped the file to James Angleton at Counter Intelligence and to Robert L. Bannerman, Deputy Chief of the Office of Security at CIA. Bannerman sent Oswald’s name back to Otto Otepka. “It would all have gone through Angleton,” Bannerman told retired military intelligence officer and author, John Newman.

Beginning on June 1, 1960, Oswald’s background and file began to be examined by employees in the Office of Security at the State Department. On December 5th, 1960, the Intelligence Collection and Distribution Division informed Otepka that he and the Office of Security would handle the official list of Americans who had defected to the Communist bloc. By now, John F. Kennedy had been elected President, but had not yet taken office.

Otepka began the work of determining whether “Lee Oswald” had bearing on any existing security case, either of an applicant for a position with the State Department, or of an existing employee. As he would any file, Otepka distributed the one bearing the name “Oswald” to his subordinates, eight or ten people, he told me, whose work he would then review. He sent Oswald’s name over to the Bureau of Soviet Affairs. It seemed to be all a matter of routine.

Oswald’s file was marked #39-61981. Sitting as it did in the Central File Room of the Office of Security, the “39” denoting an “Intelligence File,” the Oswald material raised questions. As the months passed, more questions surfaced. Otepka examined Oswald’s return from the Soviet Union with the unlikely assistance of a State Department loan. Otepka also pondered the speed with which Oswald’s wife, Marina, was cleared for entrance into the United States. By 1963, Otepka would be wondering why Oswald was issued a passport for travel to Cuba and, seemingly, the Soviet Union, despite a possible “criminal” flag in Oswald’s ONI [Office of Naval Intelligence] file. It was at this time that Otepka’s security safe was burgled and his Oswald file disappeared for good.

BOBBY KENNEDY MEETS OTTO F. OTEPKA, DECEMBER 1960 ......

NOTES....

--Document id number: 1993.06.10.18:04:90000. JFK 201-289248. OSW 12. Vol/Folder V53B. Title: Comparative Statistics Concerning Bloc and US Defectors. 9/23/60. Who from: Richard D. Gatewood, IRC/STATE. Whoto: William B. Macomber, Jr. /State. NARA.

http://books.google.com/books?id=23HR-Y6bQHQC&pg=PA62&dq=macomber+prescott+bush

Support Any Friend - Page 62

By Warren Bass

...For regional ambassadors, Kennedy turned mostly to career foreign service officers....There were two main exceptions.

First, William B. "Butts" Macomber, a former top Dulles aide, longstanding Republican, and Eisenhower Doctrine enthusiast, was sent to Jordan. Macomber first saw JFK in action the day the future president was sworn in as a senator--a ceremony that Macomber attended as the guest of a senator from the other side of the aisle, Prescott Bush of Connecticut, the scion of a Republican dynasty. During Macomber's stint as Dulles's assistant secretary of state for congressional relations, he and Kennedy had struck up a rapport....

Edited by Tom Scully

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Guest Tom Scully

It is so sad you are hellbent to shield the elite in the United States from any questioning about their ties to DeMohrenschildt and early, classified knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald. Disturbing associations because they were not brought out in official investigations. Was the official obstruction and concealment, intentional, is yours?

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol9/page278.php

(Testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt Resumed)

Mr. Jenner.

the Commercial Bank of Haiti to be of further advantage to the people of Haiti."

Mr. Jenner.

You have read the two columns appearing under that heading that you described.

Now, would you read the column to the right of those two columns?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Mr. C. J. Charles, honorary citizen of the city of New York. Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, president and director of the Bank Commercial of Haiti, Port-au-Prince, has come back yesterday morning with his charming wife, Sophie, from a trip of 2 weeks in New York, and was accompanied by Mr. James R. Green, vice president of the Manufacturers Hanover Trust Co., which is a large bank of Wall Street, New York.

"Mr. Green spent just a few hours in the capital, just sufficient time to visit the Commercial Bank with which Hanover Trust Co. wants to do business. Mr. Charles is very satisfied from the contacts which he has made during this trip, and satisfied with the promotion of his commercial bank. The Haitian banker was honored by Mayor Wagner of the city of New York, and has made his assistant, Mr. O'Brien, give the key of the city as an honorary citizen, to Mr. Charles."

Mr. Jenner.

Mr. Reporter, would you mark that "George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is by the way the photograph of a paper.

Mr. Jenner.....

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=czaikowski+cia+mr.+green&btnG=Search+Books

The road to Dallas: the assassination of John F. Kennedy‎ - Page 188

David E. Kaiser - History - 2008 - 509 pages

The debrief was handled by a CIA operative from the New York Domestic ... but

Czaikowski promised Charles another meeting with a "Mr. Green" later in the ...

Limited preview -

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=GREENE%2C+WHO+served+as+a+mid-level+State+Department+official+from+1949+to+1956%2C&btnG=Search&um=1&ned=us&hl=en&scoring=a

Banker is likely choice for Haig's assistant

Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Feb 10, 1981

James Greene, president of the American Express International Banking ... GREENE, WHO served as a mid-level State Department official from 1949 to 1956, ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=KkPb3-krfQgC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=Brent+Scowcroft+james+r+greene&source=bl&ots=0RhLREPSBU&sig=Uzm-w72o1ac2CpMHZk0ggRYJiYQ&hl=en&ei=WZRnTf7KDcS4tgft7bXmAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Brent%20Scowcroft%20james%20r%20greene&f=false

Dependency and socialism in the modern Caribbean: superpower ... - Google Books Result

Euclid A. Rose - 2002 - Political Science - 450 pages

James R. Greene and Brent Scowcroft, Western Interests and US Policy Options in the Caribbean Basin: Report on the Atlantic Council's Working Group on the ..

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4191321

University of California San Diego

from which this volume emanated. James R. Greene and Brent Scowcroft served as cochairmen of the meetings, for which Richard E. Feinberg and....

How many Bush volk would have to be named as associating with Lee Harvey Oswald's best friend in Dallas, George De Mohrenschildt, before David would ever show the slightest curiousity or inclination to want to learn more about these associations? Bush roommate Hooker was DeMohrenschildt's step-nephew and business partner, Bush business partner Devine, and Bush associate James R. Greene met with DeMohrenschildt. JFK was shot, David is sure Oswald did it; a Bush subsequently was either POTUS or VP for 20 of the 28 years span between 1981 and 2009, but David has no "cui bono" questions about these odd connections, and he regards me as if I'm crazy to mention the details. Why does David attempt to make the questions arising from the actual details, appear silly, instead of dealing with them in a reasonable and adult manner, on this, a debate forum?

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=cia+documents+portray+devine+himself.both&btnG=Search+Books

Family of Secrets: The Bush Dynasty, America's Invisible ... - Page 105

Russ Baker - 2009 - 592 pages - Google eBook - Preview

Devine's warning about CIA documents is especially interesting in light of the way two agency reports from April 1963 portray Devine himself. Both describe preparations for, and then a meeting with, George de Mohrenschildt as he comes...

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKdevineTJ.htm

Thomas J. Devine

....After the sale of the company, Devine became a member of the investment firm of Train, Cabot and Associates in New York. According to a CIA memo this was an “investment banking firm which houses and manages the (CIA) proprietary corporation WUSALINE.” John Train was one of the founding editors of the CIA-connected The Paris Review.

Devine later rejoined the CIA under non-official cover (NOC) status on 12 June 1963, as a covert commercial asset for Project WUBRINY/LPDICTUM. Joan Mellen points out that: "This CIA document reveals that Thomas Devine had informed George Bush of a CIA project with the cryptonym WUBRINY/LPDICTUM. It involved CIA proprietary commercial operations in foreign countries."

Mellen goes onto argue that this links George H. W. Bush to George de Mohrenschildt and Lee Harvey Oswald. "WUBRINY involved Haitian operations, in which, the documents reveal, a participant was George de Mohrenschildt, the Dallas CIA handler of – Lee Oswald." Russ Baker interviewed Devine in 2008 and he refused to say whether he was involved with WUBRINY. However, another CIA officer, Gale Allen, confirmed in another interview that Devine did take part in the project. .....

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=12758&relPageId=2

5476277144_e2d712aae4_b.jpg

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Mike Picardi,

If you ever get a film made of your screenplay with someone like David Von Pein as the protagonist, let us know so we can avoid it.

Yeah, we should never even SUGGEST that Lee H. Oswald had anything to do with JFK's murder, should we, Sterling? For that is a taboo subject around these parts.

In other words--to hell with the evidence and Oswald's OWN ACTIONS on the day of the assassination.

Dale Myers, another LNer that conspiracy mongers love to hate, said it very well last year.....

"For forty-six years we’ve been hearing about the big conspiracy that killed Kennedy and still we’ve seen not one shred of believable evidence that anyone other than Oswald was behind the deed. And despite [Oliver] Stone’s claim that those in the media and academia are too afraid to risk their careers or positions of power to expose the truth about the Kennedy murder, numerous television networks, reporters, lawyers, and private individuals have done just that only to find Oswald alone in the sniper’s nest window. Apparently, reality doesn’t set well with the Hollywood filmmaker. Denial is so much more comforting." -- Dale K. Myers; January 25, 2010

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/01/oliver-stone-says-us-is-still-in-denial.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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