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Gil Jesus

"Finding" the Money Order

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HARRY HOLMES TESTIFIED THAT THE MONEY ORDER STUB WAS FOUND AT 12:10 PM ON 11/23/63:

Mr. HOLMES. I didn't have any luck, so along about 11 o'clock in the morning, Saturday, I had my boys call the postal inspector.

( 11 AM )

Mr. HOLMES. ....So I had my postal inspector in charge call our Chicago office and suggested that he get an inspector out to Klein's Sporting Goods and recheck it for accuracy, that if our looking at the right gun in the magazine, they were looking for the wrong money order.

Mr. BELIN. So what happened?

Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was $21.95---$21.45 excuse me, and that the shipping---they had received this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for March 20.

( 12 NOON )

So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this money order stub.... I relayed this information to them and ....within 10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that amount.....

( 12:10 PM )

( Source: 7 H 294-295 )

BUT ALTHOUGH THEY HAD THE MONEY ORDER NUMBER, THE DATE, & KNEW THE AMOUNT AND RELAYED THAT INFO TO WASHINGTON "IMMEDIATELY", IT TOOK AN IBM COMPUTER ANOTHER SEVEN HOURS TO FIND IT

Mr. BELIN. .....Then what did you do?

Mr. HOLMES. I gave that information to my boss by telephone. He called Washington immediately.

Of course this information included the money order number. This number was transmitted by phone to the chief inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out this money order, and about 7 o'clock Saturday night they did kick out the original money order....and it turned out....to be the correct

money order.

( 7 H 295-296 )

They found the stub in ten minutes using manual labor and it took a computer 7 hours to find the money order ?

There's no way they could have done a computer search for that money order because the money order was never processed.

Edited by Gil Jesus

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Here we have yet another great big "Mountain Out Of A Molehill" post from a conspiracy theorist (Gil Jesus this time) who is searching the records, high and low, 24/7 to try and find something that will justify the crap he wants to believe -- i.e., that Lee Oswald never had Rifle C2766 in his hands at any time in his life.

It never ends. (Does it, Gil?)

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Guest Tom Scully

This is so very interesting.

You are exactly right Gil. How could they do a computer search for a money order that had never been processed?

Is this why it was not found where Wilmouth said it would be found, namely Kansas City? Instead it was found in Alexandria Virginia.

And why did it take so long to find it, IF HOLMES HAD THE STUB!

Question: Did he?

Excerpt from Jack's 26 August, 2005 post, sourced according to Jack, from John Armstrong's manuscript, an early version.:

...NOTE: Holmes claimed to have found the "stub" for money order No. 2,202,130,462, in the amount of $21.45, but the stub was never produced in evidence, nor has it ever been seen, nor was there a single witness that confirmed Holmes' finding of a "stub." ...

Jack's entire post:

More from H&L regarding the rifle order:

(excerpt from an early manuscript:

The US Postal Money order

To pay for the rifle and shipping, the Warren Commission concluded that "A. Hidell" purchased a postal money order in Dallas on March 12, in the amount of $21.45. Oswald mailed it to Klein's in Chicago, and it was deposited into their account on March 13.

One of the U. S. Postal Inspectors in Dallas in 1963 was Harry Holmes, an active FBI informant identified by the FBI as "Dallas T-2." Holmes told the Warren Commission that the money order used to purchase the rifle was purchased "early in the morning of March 12." Unfortunately, the Warren Commission failed to ask Holmes how he arrived at this conclusion.

NOTE: How did Harry Holmes, in 1964, know that the money order was purchased on the morning of March 12, 1963? The only known reference to the morning of March 12 is found on the postmark on the envelope (10:30 am) in which the money order was mailed to Klein's, but it was not shown to Holmes during his WC testimony.

On March 12, at 10:30 am, Oswald was working at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval. According to JCS records, he began work on his first camera job at 8:00 am (the same time the post office opened) which lasted 20 minutes. He then worked on 8 other camera jobs throughout the morning until his lunch break from 12:15 to 12:45.

The JCS time records do not allow time for Oswald to have walked to the Dallas post office, purchase the money order from the post office, and returned to work "early in the morning of March 12" (prior to 10:30 am). Oswald could not have purchased and mailed the money order during or after his lunch break, because if the letter was mailed after 12:00 noon it could not have arrived in Chicago, and certainly not at Klein's, by March 13th.

The money order published in the Warren Volumes, #2,202,130,462, was made payable to "Klein's Sporting Goods." The purchaser was listed as "A. Hidell," and the address was listed as "P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas." The name "A Hidell" does not appear to have been written by Oswald and appears to be the handwriting of Marina Oswald.

NOTE: the Warren Commission asked FBI document "experts" James Cadigan and Alwyn Cole their opinions of the handwriting of the name "A. Hidell" on the money order. Cole testified that the writing on the money order was done by Lee Harvey Oswald, without comparing any of the writing on the money order with the known writing of Oswald.

James Cadigan testified that the writing on the money order was done by Lee Harvey Oswald and compared only the words "Dallas, Texas" with Oswald's known writing.

Significantly, neither Cadigan nor Cole referred to or offered their opinions as to whether the handwritten "A. Hidell" was similar to Oswald's known writing.

Locating the Postal Money Order

FBI agents John W. Toedt, Robert J. Dolan, and James L. Mahan met with Klein's Sporting Goods officials and reviewed microfilm records during the late hours of November 22 and the early hours of November 23. By 5:00 am, the agents had located the records involving Oswald's alleged purchase of the rifle and confiscated the microfilm. Agent Dolan departed for the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC with film in hand. The microfilm records allegedly included copies of the following documents, later published in the Warren Volumes:

1) an order coupon used by Oswald to order a rifle for $19.95

2) a Klein's order form describing the rifle, the name and address of the purchaser, the cost, and method of payment

3) envelope mailed from Dallas to Klein's dated March 12, 1963

NOTE: it is interesting to note that the envelope allegedly mailed to Klein's was photocopied, but the US postal money order used to pay for the rifle was not microfilmed

A few hours after FBI agents confiscated Klein's microfilm (5:00 am CST), FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover told President Johnson they had already recovered the money order used to pay for the rifle. But, from the available records, we now know that Hoover was either lying or there was a second money order.

On Saturday morning FBI agent John Toedt, one of three FBI agents who met with Klein's officials and reviewed their microfilm records, contacted Mr. Cox with the US Post Office in Chicago. Toedt requested the post office's assistance in locating a postal money order and was told to contact the division headquarters in Kansas City.

Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes said "according to the FBI, the amount of the order was $21.95 and had been received by Kleins on March 20, 1963." Holmes told the Warren Commission a slightly different story in 1964. Holmes said, "the FBI furnished me information that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963."

A summary report, written by Chief Postal Inspector H.B. Montague on January 17, 1964, titled "Assistance Rendered by the Postal Inspection Service in Investigation of President Kennedy's Assassination" read:

"Advice was received on the morning of November 23 from the FBI that a rifle similar to that found in the sniper's nest had been purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods Company, Chicago, Illinois, for $21.95, with a postal money order issued March 20, 1963."

NOTE: the Klein's microfilm records were confiscated by FBI agents Toedt, Dolan, and Mahan on November 23 and published in the Warren Volumes. They show a US postal money order dated March 12, 1963, in the amount of $21.45, a Klein's shipping record dated March 20, and an envelope mailed to Kleins from Dallas postmarked March 12, 1963. If these records came from the Klein's microfilm, then why was there any confusion as to the amount of the money order, the date of the money order, or the date of shipment?

Dallas postal inspectors were unable to locate a money order in the amount of $21.95 or a confirmation of the delivery of a rifle to "A. Hidell" on or about March 20, 1963. On Saturday morning, November 23, Postal Inspector Martin J. McGee, from Chicago, telephoned Dallas and spoke with Postal Inspector Cox. McGee told Cox that Klein's Sporting Goods depositied monies into the First National Bank, Chicago, but the bank did not photographically record deposits. With McGee holding on the line, Cox advised Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes of their conversation. Cox related that the Federal Reserve Bank, Chicago, would have cashed postal money orders for the First National Bank of Chicago, but they too did not photographically record deposits. McGee further advised Cox that Klein's had received two cash items on March 13, both in the amount of $21.45. Cox then relayed the information to Holmes who stated that he thought that he would be able to find a record of the money order in Dallas.

After hearing the details of the conversation between McGee and Cox on Saturday morning, November 23, Holmes knew that Klein's had deposited two cash items, in the amount of $21.45, to the First National Bank of Chicago on March 13, 1963. Both Holmes and the FBI also knew that neither the First National Bank, the Federal Reserve Bank, the US Post Office, nor Klein's had made a photographic record of these deposits. With no photographic record, all that remained for Postal Inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes to do was produce a US postal money order in the amount of $21.45.

The summary report issued by the US Postal Service on January 17, 1964 explained Holmes' version of how he located the money order:

"Search at the main post office, Dallas, by a postal inspector (Harry Holmes) failed to disclose such an order (postal money order in the amount of $21.95); however, the inspector upon checking undeliverable sporting goods magazines in the post office found an add of Klein's showing the price of an identical rifle for $21.45."

NOTE: There are two different stories as to how Harry Holmes learned about the $21.45 money order:

1) Holmes learned about the two deposits by Klein's on March 13, 1963, each in the amount of $21.45, from the conversation between Inspector McGee and Mr. Cox on Saturday morning, November 23.

2) Holmes told the Warren Commission that he sent his secretary out to purchase some magazines. In one of the magazines he found an advertisement by Kleins for a rifle identical to the one allegedly used to kill the President for $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping-$21.45 total. Holmes said that he then telephoned a postal inspector in Chicago, informed him of his "discovery," and the inspector then confirmed that $21.45 had been deposited to Kleins bank account.

The summary report continued, "The Postal Inspector in Charge at Chicago was so informed immediately and determined through examination of bank deposit slips that Klein's had deposited a money order for $21.45 about March 14, 1963."

NOTE: no one bothered to ask how a postal inspector in Chicago was able to examine bank deposit slips for Kleins Sporting Goods on Saturday morning, November 23.

The summary report continued, "Further search by an inspector at the Dallas post office (Harry Holmes) disclosed record of the issuance of money order No. 2,202,130,462, for $21.45, on March 12, 1963.

NOTE: Holmes claimed to have found the "stub" for money order No. 2,202,130,462, in the amount of $21.45, but the stub was never produced in evidence, nor has it ever been seen, nor was there a single witness that confirmed Holmes' finding of a "stub."

The summary report continued, "This paid order was located at the Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia on the early evening of November 23." It was turned over to a Secret Service agent in Washington, DC who flew it to Dallas." The initials of Secret Service Agent John H. Grimes (JHG) appear on the back of the money order that was published in Volume XVII, p 677 (CE 788).

Harry Holmes' efforts appeared to resolve the question of a money order received by Kleins in the amount of $21.95. The money order was dated March 12, 1963, and appeared to match a deposit of $21.45 made to Klein's bank account in Chicago on March 14, 1963. But a simple review of the money order and the bank deposit, as published in the Warren Volumes, shows that neither can be considered as evidence and both may, in fact, be fabrications.

NOTE: None of the FBI agents who met with Klein's officials and reviewed the microfilm records were questioned by the Commission.

Locating Money Order No. 2,202,130,462

The US Postal Service reported that National Archives and Records Service employee Robert H. Jackson found the money order at the Federal Records Center in Arlington, Virginia. Jackson then gave the money order to J. Harold Marks of the US Post Office, who notified Secret Service agent John E. Parker at 9:35 pm, November 23. Parker met with Jackson and Marks at Marks residence and obtained the money order. The back side of the money order published in the Warren Volumes (Vol XXIV, p. 261) contains the initials RHJ (Robert H. Jackson), JHM (J. Harold Marks), and JEP (John E. Parker). The date "11-23-63" appears by each of their names.

According to US Postal Inspector H.B. Montague the money order was then hand delivered to Dallas by a Secret Service agent (possibly John H. Grimes). Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate a Secret Service report that confirms the money order was hand carried from Alexandria, Virginia (Washington, DC) to Dallas by Grimes. In Dallas the money order was photocopied by the Dallas Police, initialed by Grimes on November 24, and may have been shown to Oswald.

Two days later, on November 26, Grimes turned the money order over to James T. Freeman at the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC.

Was Money Order No. 2,202,130,462 used to purchase a rifle?

Postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 was published in Volume XVII, p 677. Neither the front nor back side contains endorsement or date stamps of the First National Bank (Klein's account), Federal Reserve Bank (clearing bank), or the US Post office. The purpose of endorsement stamps is to track deposits through the banking system and insures that a deposit item is not deposited, or cashed, more than once. If a check or money order lacks endorsement stamps, it means that the check or money order was never deposited or cashed at any financial institution. The lack of endorsement stamps on US postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 means that it was never deposited to any financial institution. According to the postmark, it was obtained from the US post office in Dallas and bears the date of March 12. There has never been an explanation for the the lack of a bank endorsement or date.

The Warren Commission offered this $21.45 unused money order as proof that Oswald purchased a $21.45 rifle (including postage) from Klein's Sporting Goods. According to the FBI and Warren Commission, this money order was deposited on March 14 (or 15th) to Klein's bank account #50 91144 at the First National Bank of Chicago.

Was Money Order No. 2,202,130,462 deposited to Kleins account?

When Klein's received a check or money order, they endorsed the reverse side with a rubber stamp and deposited it to their account at the First National Bank of Chicago. The endorsement stamp read:

PAY TO THE ORDER OF

The First National Bank of Chicago

50 91144

KLEIN'S SPORTING GOODS, INC.

This deposit stamp appears on the reverse side of the $21.45 money order published in WC Volume XVII, p 677. Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President in the Operations Department of the First National Bank of Chicago, explained the process after which a postal money order was deposited to his bank (into Klein's account). Wilmouth said that when an item was received by First National, it had to be endorsed on the reverse side with the name and number of the account holder (the Klein's endorsement stamp).

Money order 2,202,130,462, when deposited, should have been routinely stamped and dated by the First National Bank of Chicago (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #1). It would then be sent to the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago where it would again be stamped and dated (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #2). Finally, it would be sent to the central processing center in Kansas City where it would be again stamped and dated (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #3).

The $21.45 money order, according to Wilmouth, should have been stamped and dated by three different banking institutions. But not a single bank endorsement stamp or transaction date appears on either the front or back side of the postal money order. It is clear that postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 was never deposited or cashed by any bank or financial institution.

NOTE: Bank Vice-President Robert Wilmouth was never called to testify before the Commission. Wilmouth most certainly would have pointed out that the money order was never deposited to any financial institution due to a lack of bank endorsement stamps.

The reader is encouraced to refer to bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of checks issued to Oswald by Leslie Welding Volume XXIV, p 886-890; see also bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of checks issued to Oswald by Reilly Coffee-Volume XXIV p 892-900; see also bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of unemployment checks issued to Oswald by the State of Texas-Volume XXII, p 199-202.

Klein's Bank Deposits

Klein's recorded their business transactions from 7 retail stores in the Chicago area and their mail order business on microfilm. The FBI confiscated their microfilm records on November 23, 1963 and took them to the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC.

The FBI reviewed the microfilm and located a 4 page list of deposits totaling $13, 827.98, including an item for $21.45. Three FBI agents then interviewed Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President of the First National Bank of Chicago. Wilmouth confirmed that a deposit had been made by Klein's on March 15, 1963, in the amout of $13,827.98. He said that postal money orders were sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, which in turn sent them to a central processing center located in Kansas City, Missouri. He also told the agents that his bank did not microfilm money orders, but the Federal Reserve Bank would be able to identify the money order by number.

The three FBI agents next spoke with Lester Gohr, Assistant Cashier, of the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. Gohr explained that records regarding postal money orders were kept for six months-the oldest records at the bank were from May 29, 1963. There is no indication that the FBI agents asked Gohr if the Federal Reserve Bank could identify the money order, or the post office from which it was issued, by number.

Klein's vice-president William Waldman testified before the Warren Commission on May 20, 1964. Attorney David Belin handed Waldman postal money order 2,202,130,462 and said, ".....on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank." Belin probably knew the stamp on the reverse side of the money order was Klein's deposit stamp and not a bank endorsement. There was not a single bank endorsement stamp on the money order, even though Belin suggested there was.

Belin asked Waldman when the money order was deposited to the Klein's account. Waldman answered, "I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company...." One of the reasons Waldman could not determine the date of deposit was because there was no date stamp or bank endorsement on the money order. Another reason was nothing identified the source of the $21.45 entry-it was simply a number on paper tape generator by an adding maching. It was one of many such numbers included in a 4 page list of deposits made to Klein's account on March 13, 1963, which totaled $13,827.98.

NOTE: no one attempted to explain how the alleged deposit could have been made to the Kleins' account in Chicago on March 13, 1963-one day after the money order was purchased and mailed from Dallas!

Waldman was unable to say if or when postal money order 2,202,130,462 was deposited to Klein's bank account. He was not asked if the $13,827.98 deposit, which included an item for $21.45, was from their mail order business or one or more of their 7 retail outlets.

A handwritten date of "3/13/63" appears on the 4 page list of deposits, but the date on the First National Bank of Chicago deposit slip for $13,827.98 reads "February 15, 1963." This date is a month before the money order was allegedly purchased. This date may or may not have been a clerical error by either Klein's or the Bank, but neither the FBI nor Warren Commission attempted to resolve this glaring discrepency. Why not ?

The Warren Commission used the $21.45 entry on the paper tape from an adding machine, matched it with the $21.45 on an undeposited postal money order, and offered these items as "proof" that Oswald purchased a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle from Klein's in March, 1963.

Postal Money orders issued at the GPO in Dallas-Sept-Dec, 1962

FBI SA Donald E. Stangel wrote a report concerning Oswald's payments to the Department of State, in re-payment of his loan, on November 30, 1963. Stangel obtained cashed money orders, purchased by Oswald and sent to the Department of State, from the Money Order Center, US Post Office Department, in Kansas City. Following is a list of those money orders:

1,156,417,562 $9.71September 1, 1962Ft. Worth

1,156,418,896 $10.00Ft. Worth

1,158,380,709 $10.00November 14, 1962GPO Dallas

1,158,384,596 $100.00December 6, 1962GPO Dallas

1,158,384,597 $90.00December 6, 1962GPO Dallas

Between November 14 and December 6 ( 3 1/2 weeks) the US post office in Dallas sold 3887 money orders-slightly more than 1000 per week. Three months later, on March 12, 1963, Oswald allegedly purchased the following money order from the main post office (GPO) in Dallas:

2,202,130,461$21.45March 12, 1963GPO Dallas

Money orders were issued in numerical sequence from both the Dallas and Ft. Worth post offices. By March 12, had they continued selling 1000 money orders per week, the Dallas post office should have seen selling money orders beginning with 1,158,389,000. However, the money order allegedly purchased by Oswald numbered 2,202,130,461. It is doubtful that the Dallas Post office sold 1,043,745,864 (one billion, 43 million, seven hundred forty five thousand.......) money orders in 3 months. The number on the money order made payable to Kleins Sporting Goods suggests that either the money order came from another location or, if from the Dallas post office, came from a different series of money orders.

Summary of the Money Order

It is difficult to believe that neither the FBI, Warren Commission members, nor their staff attornies noticed that bank endorsements and dates of deposits were missing from the postal money order.

• A new postal money order could have been obtained at any time, from any post office. The notation of "Dallas, TX, 3/12/63" could have been placed on the money order at any time.

It is difficult to believe the Commission concluded that a $21.45 entry from among 4 pages of paper tape from an adding machine represented the deposit of the postal money order.

• A paper tape from an adding machine could have been created anywhere, at any time.

It is difficult to believe the Commission published the deposit slip for $13,827.98 in the Volumes, dated "February 15, 1963, yet concluded the deposit had been made on March 13, 1963!

• In the absence of original documents, a date could have been placed on records copied from microfilm at any time.

Nevertheless, this was the documentation used by the Warren Commission to prove that Oswald purchased a money order in Dallas to purchase a rifle from Klein's that allegedly was used to assassinate the President of the United States.

Today, it is impossible to verify the date of deposit of the $13,827.98 (which includes the $21.45). Klein's is out of business, their bank records from the First National Bank of Chicago were destroyed long ago, and the Klein's microfilm records disappeared while in FBI custody.

Edited by Tom Scully

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Do conspiracy theorists REALLY and truly believe that this document (Waldman #7) was NOT found among the Klein's records on the morning of November 23, 1963? Is this document (which is a KLEIN'S document with KLEIN'S letterhead) a total fabrication? Because if it's not, then Oswald positively ordered and paid for and was shipped Rifle C2766 in March 1963:

WaldmanExhibitNo7.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein

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Do conspiracy theorists REALLY and truly believe that this document (Waldman #7) was NOT found among the Klein's records on the morning of November 23, 1963? Is this document (which is a KLEIN'S document with KLEIN'S letterhead) a total fabrication? Because if it's not, then Oswald positively ordered and paid for and was shipped Rifle C2766 in March 1963:

WaldmanExhibitNo7.jpg

Hey Dave,

I don't think it has to be forged, and it can probably tell us a lot.

That's a real nice document,Dave, Waldman Exhibit No. 7 - Kline's Order Blank - but Oswald's name isn't on it, it's Hidell.

And it isn't just March 1963, like you say, it's March 20, 1963 - that would be 3/20/63.

I'd like to know what the other tidbits mean - as they must mean something - the five with a circle around it,

and some other notations, and 125 - what does that mean? And the PP circled above? VC 836?

I'm sure these are all just administrative details, but they had to be checked off in order for Hidell, err Oswald,

to get the rifle.

And what was Oswald doing on March 20?

He was at work at Jagger/Chiles/Stoval, the graphics art company that did map work for the Army, where his timecard

says he worked a full day, including some time on the account of Sam Bloom, just like he did on the day we suspect he

mailed the order and the day we suspect he picked up the weapon said to have been used to kill the President.

Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits

The same Sam Bloom who arranged for the route and timing of the motorcade.

I wonder what JFK was doing that day?

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Oswald's name isn't on it, it's Hidell.

You're kidding, Bill. Right?

In case you didn't know -- Oswald and Hidell were the same person.

And the PO Box was OSWALD'S known mailing address in Dallas.

Don't tell me you want to pretend that there REALLY was a person named "A. Hidell", Bill?

And did this "Hidell" person just happen to use the exact same P.O. Box that was rented by Lee Oswald?

C'mon, Bill -- you know damn well that Waldman 7 proves (for all time) that Oswald was shipped Rifle C2766. There is no reasonable doubt about that fact.

And what was Oswald doing on March 20?

What difference does it make what Oswald was doing on the day the rifle was mailed? It was SHIPPED on March 20. LHO didn't receive it on that date. He would have picked it up a few days after March 20, of course. The exact day can never be known.

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Guest Tom Scully
Oswald's name isn't on it, it's Hidell.

You're kidding, Bill. Right?

In case you didn't know -- Oswald and Hidell were the same person.

And the PO Box was OSWALD'S known mailing address in Dallas.

Don't tell me you want to pretend that there REALLY was a person named "A. Hidell", Bill?

And did this "Hidell" person just happen to use the exact same P.O. Box that was rented by Lee Oswald?

C'mon, Bill -- you know damn well that Waldman 7 proves (for all time) that Oswald was shipped Rifle C2766. There is no reasonable doubt about that fact.

And what was Oswald doing on March 20?

What difference does it make what Oswald was doing on the day the rifle was mailed? It was SHIPPED on March 20. LHO didn't receive it on that date. He would have picked it up a few days after March 20, of course. The exact day can never be known.

David....you've extended yourself here far beyond your competency; take a breather. You ought to see how you appear to curious, intelligent, informed, questioning people.

(Jack White responding to Tom Purvis...)

Tom...the Armstrong research on Kleins and the rifle runs about 50 pages,

far too much to scan. He discovered the weight discrepancy about 10 years ago.

His research is highly recommended. As I recall, he shows the WC Kleins documents

were forgeries...but don't take my word...it has been several years since I read

the book.

Jack B)

Tom...I finally located an early copy of John's H&L manuscript

on my HD which I used in helping proofread. This is not necessarily

the final draft, but is close. Following is part of John's chapter on

Klein's, from about 5 years ago.

Jack

...........................................

March 12, 1963-Oswald's alleged purchase of a rifle

Much has been written about Oswald's alleged purchase of the so-called "assassination rifle," found by Dallas Police on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building. The police found a 40.2 inch long, Mannlicher-Carcano carbine, Model 91/38, caliber 6.5mm, serial number C2766.

The Warren Commission published documents and testimony that purported to "prove" that Oswald ordered the rifle on March 12, 1963, using the alias "A. Hidell," from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. They tried to prove that the rifle was mailed to his post office box in Dallas, that it was taken to the Paine garage in Irving, and that Oswald carried it to the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22.

In order to determine if the Warren Commission's conclusions were correct, a thorough examination of the documents and evidence relating to the history of this rifle is essential. We will try to determine if Klein's had the rifle in it's inventory in March, 1963, if Oswald purchased the money order used to pay for the rifle, if Klein's deposited that money order into their bank account, if Klein's shipped Oswald a 40.2 inch carbine, if Oswald picked up that rifle from his post office box in Dallas, and if anyone at any time ever saw Oswald with a rifle. ....

...Rupp shipped some of these rifles to Klein's in January, 1963. On Klein's original order for 400 rifles, placed on January 15, 1962, there is a handwritten notation "order number 1222," and the date received-1/22/62.

On the same order form, above the order for 200 rifles, there is a handwritten notation "order number 1243," and the date received- 1/24/63. On a carbon copy of the same form, above the quantity "200," there is a handwritten notation "3166 (Crescent's invoice number)," and the date of Crescent's invoice-1/6/63.

On the same order form, above the order for 100 rifles, there is a handwritten notation "order number 1243," and the date received- 1/24/63. On a carbon copy of the same form, above the quantity "100," there is a handwritten notation "3178 (Crescent's invoice number), and the date of Crescent's invoice-2/7/63. According to the the Warren Commission, this was the order that originated with Fred Rupp and contained both carton #3376 and the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, C2766. The Warren Commission and the FBI, however, had no shipping documents or bills of lading to support their claim.

Fred Rupp

The FBI obtained an undated shipping document, allegedly signed by Fred Rupp, which showed that 10 cartons of rifles, weighing 750 pounds, were picked up by North Penn Transfer Company in Pottsville, PA. However, Pottsville is 60 miles northwest of Fred Rupp's hometown of Perkasie.

The FBI next obtained the bill of lading from the North Penn Transfer Company, of Lansdale, PA. This document showed that on February 12, 1963, North Penn picked up 10 cartons of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles (100 total), weighing 750 pounds, from Pottsville. The bill of lading does not list any of the carton numbers, serial numbers of rifles, or have the signature of Fred Rupp as shipper. North Penn delivered the 10 cartons of rifles to Lifschultz Fast Freight in Philadelphia on February 13, for further shipment to Klein's in Chicago.

On February 15, 1963, the 10 cartons of rifles, again with no carton numbers or serial numbers listed on the Lifschultz bill of lading, left Philadelphia bound for Chicago. Six days later, on February 21, Lifschultz delivered the 10 cartons to Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., 4540 W. Madison St., Chicago.

Did Klein's receive 36 or 40 inch rifles on February 21, 1963?

The FBI, and later the Warren Commission, claimed that Crescent's shipping form #3620 proved that C2766 was sold to Klein's on February 7, 1963-INSTEAD OF ON JUNE 18, 1962.

At this point, either Louis Feldsott or the FBI is lying about the date that C2766 was sold to Klein's. The same rifle could not have been sold on June 18, 1962, and again on February 7, 1963. Feldsott said he gave documents related to the purchase, transportation, and sale of C2766 to the FBI. But the only document known to exist is an undated transportation document-Crescent's shipping form #3620.

January, 1963-Klein's continues to receive 36 inch rifles

In January, 1963, handwritten notations on Klein's order for 300 Model 91TS rifles, placed April 13, 1962, indicates these orders were filled.

According to both the North Penn Transfer and Lifschultz bills of lading, the 10 cases of rifles (100 rifles) weighted 750 pounds, or 7.5 pounds per rifle. Each of the wooden shipping cartons was measured at 3' 5" long, 1'2" wide, and 11" high by the Harborside Terminal. When empty, each carton weighted approximately 12 lbs, not including packing materials for the rifles. Therefore, each Mannlicher-Carcano received by Klein's on February 21, 1963, weighed less than 6.3 pounds.

According to the FBI, a 40 inch long Mannlicher-Carcano weighed 7 pounds, 11 ounces. One hundred such rifles, plus 10 cartons and packing materials, would weigh nearly 900 pounds-far more than the 750 pound shipment delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963. It is therefore almost certain that Fred Rupp, North Penn Transfer, and Lifschultz Fast Freight shipped 10 cartons of 36 inch Mannlicher-Carcano carbines to Klein's in February, 1963. A 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano, C2766, could not have been among these rifles.

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David....you've extended yourself here far beyond your competency; take a breather. You ought to see how you appear to curious, intelligent, informed, questioning people.

Please note how the number of LIARS continues to grow upon reading those John Armstrong book excerpts that Jack White posted in 2005.

Start counting up the number of people who surely must be liars in the minds of conspiracy theorists when it comes to just the issue of Oswald's money order alone, including the various people from the banking institutions and the post office and the FBI and the Secret Service who saw and/or physically handled the Oswald money order.

The FBI must have been doing a lot of strong-arming at the banks and at Klein's and at the post office regarding JUST this money order thing alone, in order to get various people to say they saw and handled a money order that many conspiracy theorists think is a total fraud.

Another question -- Did the Feds PLANT a fake money order somewhere (after perfectly mimicking Lee Oswald's handwriting on it too, of course--and all within less than 24 hours of the assassination), so that a legitimate banking employee or a post office employee could conveniently "find" it later on? Or did the FBI just MAKE UP all the names of the bank officials and post office people that Jack White mentions in his 2005 article above?

I'll reiterate this FACT one more time --- Waldman Exhibit No. 7 (which has never been proven to be a "fake" document by any conspiracy theorist in the world) proves for all time that Klein's received a paid-in-full rifle order from "A. Hidell" of Dallas, Texas (who was really Lee Harvey Oswald, as we all know) in March 1963, and Klein's shipped a rifle with the serial number C2766 on it to Oswald's Dallas mailing address on 3/20/63.

Any other conclusion is pure speculation that is not supported by the known documentary evidence connected with the JFK murder investigation.

~Mark VII~

Edited by David Von Pein

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I'll reiterate this FACT one more time --- Waldman Exhibit No. 7 (which has never been proven to be a "fake" document by any conspiracy theorist in the world) proves for all time that Klein's received a paid-in-full rifle order from "A. Hidell" of Dallas, Texas (who was really Lee Harvey Oswald, as we all know) in March 1963, and Klein's shipped a rifle with the serial number C2766 on it to Oswald's Dallas mailing address on 3/20/63.

Nonsense.

First of all, the document doesn't prove the rifle was shipped.

The only proof that the rifle was shipped and received would have been the delivery receipt that the post office required for all firearms. No such receipt exists for this purchase.

Second of all, Waldman 7 is not marked "paid in full", which it should be if they received a " paid in full rifle order " and shipped a rifle as you claim.

You always do this. You always state things that are YOUR INTERPRETATION rather than fact.

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What difference does it make what Oswald was doing on the day the rifle was mailed?

None. But it makes a difference what Oswald was doing on the day the money order was purchased.

No testimony was ever taken on Oswald's timesheets for March 12, 1963.

Edited by Gil Jesus

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The FBI must have been doing a lot of strong-arming at the banks and at Klein's and at the post office regarding JUST this money order thing alone, in order to get various people to say they saw and handled a money order that many conspiracy theorists think is a total fraud.

They didn't have to. All they had to do was to call as witnesses people who had no idea what the documentation said ( like Waldman ) and leave off the witness lists people who DID know what they said ( like Westra ) .

Strong-arming at the banks ? Name the bank official who supported the offical version by identifying the money order as having passed through their institution.

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Hidell's name is not on the PO box application so Hidell was not authorized to receive mail at that box.

Er, Jimmy, you must have forgotten to read this blog post of mine, which sets straight multiple hunks of conspiracy misinformation re the PO Boxes:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/post-office-applications.html

EXCERPT FROM ABOVE-LINKED POST:

DVP SAID (IN 2010):

Rob Caprio is making stuff up (again).

The fact is this -- Nobody knows for certain whether Oswald listed Hidell on the Dallas P.O. Box [#2915] form or not. The likelihood is that he probably DID list that name, but the portion of the application that revealed such information was discarded after Oswald closed out the box.

If he listed Hidell on his New Orleans P.O. Box forms (which he definitely did), then why wouldn't he list Hidell on his Dallas P.O. Box form? Common sense would suggest that he likely treated those forms the same and listed Hidell on both [EDIT--although, yes, it is true that he did not list "Hidell" on the application he filled out on 11/1/63 for Box 6225; but by that date, he had already purchased both of his guns via his Hidell alias, and he possibly felt he would no longer have any need to utilize that fake name for post office transactions in the future].

[...]

BTW, it also makes no sense for Oswald to purchase guns under the name HIDELL and have them shipped to a P.O. Box where he DID NOT have the name HIDELL listed as a person authorized to receive mail.

But, on the other hand, since the post office delivers to ADDRESSES and not specific PEOPLE, it's very likely that Oswald would not have had any problem getting a package addressed to HIDELL even if that name was not on any kind of official authorization form.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Which is it? Is he [Lee H. Oswald] a criminal genius or a[n] idiot chimp?

A little bit of both, I'd say.

But neither category is required for Oswald to be guilty (alone) of the assassination. He merely smuggled his own cheap rifle into his own workplace one day and found himself having the best luck in the world when:

a.) Nobody was up on the sixth floor when he was assembling his rifle and putting together his "sniper's nest". (And, no, I have no idea why he was standing on the WEST end of the sixth floor around 12:15, to be seen by Arnold Rowland. But I have no doubt in my mind that it WAS Oswald whom Rowland observed holding a rifle.)

I've theorized HERE that it's possible that LHO was mulling over the idea of using the WEST window to shoot from, but I can't explain why on Earth he (or ANY assassin) would make himself totally exposed, with rifle in hand, on the west end when he certainly didn't NEED to do that. So that was one of Lee's "idiot chimp" moments on November 22. And, yes, he had several of those on that day...but nevertheless, even with his "idiot" moments, he accomplished his goal--he murdered the President.

b.) Bonnie Ray Williams decided to vacate the sixth floor shortly before the President drove through Dealey Plaza, thereby leaving the entire sixth floor totally empty -- except, of course, for Oswald in his Nest. If Williams stayed on the 6th floor, or if other workers--such as Norman and Jarman--had decided to use the SIXTH floor as their parade-watching perch, then JFK would have lived to see Nov. 23 (IMO). Because there's no way in Hades that LHO takes those shots if he knows there are other people on the same floor, just a few feet away from his Sniper's Nest.

c.) It stopped raining that morning, thereby enabling the bubbletop to come off of JFK's limo. An extremely important piece of pure LUCK for assassin Oswald, to be sure. The roof was not bulletproof, no. But did OSWALD know that? No one can know.

RELATED ARTICLE:

SIX THINGS MADE TO ORDER FOR LEE HARVEY OSWALD

Edited by David Von Pein

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I've always found it interesting that we seem to forget to look at the things, as DL says, "Hidden in plain sight"

Is it a correct assumption that this Klein order was typed up all at the same time?

Is there any reason the typing of A. Hidell and the address is on a DIFFERENT typewriter than the rest of the order?

Or why Hidell looks more like Midell?

Or why the rifle specific data and the totaling is handwritten as opposed to the rest of the order?

or what the date Mar-13-63 is doing stamped at the top... does it usually take 7 days to fill an order?

"pp" = postage paid?

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I’d also like to get back to the MO...

There are some strange details I’d like to focus attention on:

As you can see, much of what is written on the back or front can be seen on the opposite side... (I reversed the back so the writing from the front is not a mirror image)

We can see the “THIRTY”, the PAY TO and FROM fields, even a perfect bleed thru of the MAR 12 1963 Stamp.

What we DON’T see are some things we should...

The amount, which is stamped into the MO at the time of purchase does not bleed thru while the “138 4159796” can be seen... why can't we see the amount or at least an indication that the "2 & 1" are so much darker than the ".45"

The stains are virtually identical on either side of the MO

There seems to be a darker area, almost a perfect rectangle, that covers ALL the entered information - another MO for comparison sure wouldbe helpful.

And then there is that extra DALLAS Stamp in the bottom right corner

These are just observations – I’m interested in your comments as to their significance if any..

Thanks

DJ

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