"Hidell" handgun purchase required "certificate of good character"---so where is it ?

[Gil Jesus]

Companies who did business in interstate sales of firearms were required to conform to the laws of the states to which they shipped.

In 1963, Texas law required that anyone desiring to purchase a handgun first obtain a "certificate of good character" from a justice of the peace, county judge, or district judge of the county of his residence.

SOURCE: Subcommittee to Investigate Juvenile Delinquency, S1448-11-11, op. cit. p. 3461

This was prior to "background checks" and its intent was to prevent criminals from purchasing handguns.

So where is the certificate for the "Hidell" handgun purchase ?

Edited March 26, 2011 by Gil Jesus

[David Von Pein]

LHO didn't need a document of that nature, as testified to by Heinz Michaelis (is he lying too, Gil?).....

HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "The order received by mail is written up and invoiced in quadruplicate on a snap-out form. .... The fourth copy is the acknowledgment of the order copy and lists on the back side a statement which has to be signed by the respective customer."

JOE BALL -- "What statement?

MR MICHAELIS -- "A statement to the effect, I believe that it said that the buyer states that he is a citizen of the United States, and that he has never been convicted in any court of the United States, territories, possessions, et cetera."

MR. BALL -- "Well, now, this fourth copy that has on the back this statement by the customer, is that mailed to the customer?"

MR. MICHAELIS -- "It is mailed to the customer, but not in this particular case. Indicated on the invoice are three X's, which indicates that we have already a statement to this effect on file because this particular mail order coupon has already the statement, and the name of the witness."

[David Josephs]

So who is Mr. D.F. Drittal?

The man on the gun order who acted as his character witness?

I believe you've written that Drittal is Hidell is Oswald.... but I've seen no evidence that Oswald ever used the Drittal OR Hidell names - and you haven't provided anything to refute that David (and I am not referring to the orders, or the three wallets - confirm the use of Hidell by Oswald anywhere prior to the weapons orders).

Only that the writing on the gun order form for Hidel isidentical to Drittal - whoever filled it out also signed as a witness - pretty obvious... {still can't upload images}

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1605

[Ron Ecker]

David Von Pein,

You are convincing me more and more that Oswald did it. My old childlike faith in the Warren Commission is effectively being restored.

It may be too much to ask, but is there anything you can do to restore my belief in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy? If anyone can do it, you can.

Thanks in advance.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Ron Ecker

[David Von Pein]

Jim D.,

I'd sooner believe in the Easter Bunny than to believe the incredibly complicated and overbaked "Everything Is Fake And Everybody Lied" theories that you continue to spout 24/7 concerning

the JFK case.

That bunny theory is much more palatable.

Edited March 26, 2011 by David Von Pein

[Guest Robert Morrow]

Jim D.,

I'd sooner believe in the Easter Bunny than to believe the incredibly complicated and overbaked "Everything Is Fake And Everybody Lied" theories that you continue to spout 24/7 concerning

the JFK case.

That bunny theory is much more palatable.

In a coup d'etat, one just can not trust the official record. When I first started studying the JFK assassination, I figured out early that there was a coup d'etat. But what took me a bit longer was to realize that huge chunks of the official recorded is fraudulent, fabricated or planted evidence, statements by witnesses intentionally twisted or corrupted from what they said; good witnesses ignored or intimidated/harassed/persecuted if they kept coming forward.

And then there is the issue of evidence that just seems to "disappear."

In a coup d'etat things just seem to "disappear." The bullet found in the grass by the FBI man disappeared. The orginal sharp pointed lead bullet found at Parkland ... just "disappeared" and was replaced with a planted bullet. The Mauser orginally found "disappeared" replace by Mannlicher Carcaro. The original negative of Albert Thomas winking at LBJ ... "disappeared." The original CBS film of the Parkland doctors talking about the front neck bullet wound "disappeared." Gordon Arnold's film "disappeared." Beverly Oliver's film "disappeared." When James Tague reported to the WC he was almost hit by a stray bullet... the nick on the sidewalk "disappeared" filled in with concrete, then cut out later taken to FBI... The original Edwin Walker bullet... just "disappeared" replaced by a planted bullet. Many autopsy x-rays were taken ... they just "disappeared." Btw the original autopsy notes "disappeared" burned in a fireplace. JFK's brain, what little that was left ... just "disappeared." JFK's limo with all the blood, gore, evidence, hole in windshield etc. just "disappeared" to be refurbished. The Harper fragment - a BONE of JFK's body that was found examined photographed and identified as an occipatal bone ... just "disappeared."

Yeah, when the murderers are LBJ, Hoover, CIA, Texas oil barons, and Rockefellers and these same murderers controll the Dallas police, the Dallas DA and Texas Attorney General... things just seem to "disappear." Including the TRUTH.

So, yeah, lots of lying, fabricating fake evidence along with destroying good evidence in the JFK assassination. Even the Easter Bunny should be able to figure that one out.

[Gil Jesus]

LHO didn't need a document of that nature, as testified to by Heinz Michaelis (is he lying too, Gil?).....

HEINZ MICHAELIS -- "The order received by mail is written up and invoiced in quadruplicate on a snap-out form. .... The fourth copy is the acknowledgment of the order copy and lists on the back side a statement which has to be signed by the respective customer."

JOE BALL -- "What statement?

MR MICHAELIS -- "A statement to the effect, I believe that it said that the buyer states that he is a citizen of the United States, and that he has never been convicted in any court of the United States, territories, possessions, et cetera."

MR. BALL -- "Well, now, this fourth copy that has on the back this statement by the customer, is that mailed to the customer?"

MR. MICHAELIS -- "It is mailed to the customer, but not in this particular case. Indicated on the invoice are three X's, which indicates that we have already a statement to this effect on file because this particular mail order coupon has already the statement, and the name of the witness."

This is ridiculous. He didn't need a certificate from a judge because he PROMISED he didn't have a criminal record ?

Like they just KNEW he wouldn't lie to them, right ?

And I guess they KNEW D.F. Drittal also.

This is BS. They're not going to ship a handgun against the law to someone who they don't even know who provides a witness they also don't know, just on the guy's PROMISE that he doesn't have a criminal record.

ROFLMAO-- What criminal who wanted to buy a handgun through the mail, would admit to having a record ? What's the point of asking them if you're going to hand over a gun on such flimsy qualifications ?

Come on now.

How stupid do you think people are ?

Edited March 27, 2011 by Gil Jesus

[David Von Pein]

Like they just KNEW he wouldn't lie to them, right?

And you think Oswald wouldn't tell a lie to a judge to get a certificate?

[David Von Pein]

What criminal who wanted to buy a handgun through the mail, would admit to having a record ? What's the point of asking them if you're going to hand over a gun on such flimsy qualifications ?

Can I then assume, Gil, that you definitely think Oliver Stone was full of BS when he told his movie-going audience that Oswald could have walked into any gun shop in the state of Texas and come out with a rifle that "could never be traced" to the purchaser?

Wouldn't Oswald need to show that "certificate of good character" to the gun shop clerk? And wouldn't/(shouldn't) that information, along with Oswald's/(Hidell's) name be noted somewhere on some paperwork by the gun shop employees?

I know you don't want to ever accuse the great Oliver Stone of misleading his audience, but think it over anyway. I'm interested in what an Anybody-But-Oswald Internet CTer like you thinks about this matter concerning Oliver Stone.

Edited March 27, 2011 by David Von Pein

[William Kelly]

FYI Gil, this has been a favorite technique of the DVP/Reitzes/Jean Davidson crowd of late.

That is, to question whether or not Oswald could have purchased a gun in Texas with little or no paper trail.

It has never been settled conclusively one way or the other. So DVP drags it in her to muddy the waters and detract from this issue that he is being pilloried about.

Besides that issue, it also ignores the rather important constitutional point that federal laws often govern interstate transactions in a way that they don't govern state laws in over the counter transactions. (This is called the federalist system of precedent. Davey, just ask your buddy McAdams about it, you know, the guy who you pretend not to know.)

When it comes to the possibility of Oswald buying a gun over the counter in Texas without identification or trace, it's interesting that the day before the assassination, one of the TSBD managers bought two rifles, a Mauser and a .22 for his son at a shop within walking distance of the TSBD. He showed them around and Oswald saw them.

Then, years later, John Hinkley, AFTER being arrested with weapons at an airport in a city where the president was, Hinkley went into a pawn shop in Dallas within walking distance of Dealey Plaza and bought the gun he used to shoot Reagan shortly thereafter.

Speaking of this, did anybody see the TV documentary on the Reagan shooting at the Hinkley Hilton? It was like an hour long, but I missed it.

I'd like to hear a report on it, maybe in another thread.

BK

[Gil Jesus]

As I noted on Len's show, the Michaelis interview was all a dog and pony show.

I mean the guy did not even work for Seaport at the time of the transaction.

Why did they not interview someone who did?

And then they have this guy insinuate that the gun was sent to Oswald at the USPS.

Which it was not.

But they needed that to cover up the fact that no one at REA recalled Oswald and there was no documentation there that he picked up the gun.

Jim, here's something else to consider:

Anytime you require a document from a JUDGE, you have to provide him with information. In order to have received a "certificate of good character" from a judge in the county where you reside, the required piece of information would have been proof of identity, with which he would have reviewed court documents to find out if you had a record of a violent past or were a convicted felon. If he found evidence of that, the request for the certificate would have been denied.

More importantly, the proof of identity requirement would have made it impossible for someone to have obtained such a certificate using an alias.

That's probbably why no copy of any such "certificate of good character" exists.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Gil Jesus

[David Josephs]

This is it... the sum total of ALL the evidence related to the purchase of the supposed murder weapon of JD Tippit.

Serial # hadwritten on the order... sounds familiar

No records related to the $10 cash deposit or the envelope that and the coupon arrive in

No records of the $1.27 Railway collects

No record of the $19.95 forwarded from Railway

No record of anyone at Railway picking up the carton

No record of another Money Order or cash rec'd to pay the COD balance for the pistol

No record of when Seaport recieves the coupon although it is at least 6 weeks before they process it

(if 1/2 or 1/27 is the date on the coupon) and yet both weapons are shipped to the PO Box on the same day...)

but other than that... a perfectly legit transaction...

Thanks Gil...

DJ

[Len Colby]

Companies who did business in interstate sales of firearms were required to conform to the laws of the states to which they shipped.

In 1963, Texas law required that anyone desiring to purchase a handgun first obtain a "certificate of good character" from a justice of the peace, county judge, or district judge of the county of his residence.

SOURCE: Subcommittee to Investigate Juvenile Delinquency, S1448-11-11, op. cit. p. 3461

This was prior to "background checks" and its intent was to prevent criminals from purchasing handguns.

So where is the certificate for the "Hidell" handgun purchase ?

Can you cite the passage from the Senate hearings that indicated this? FWIW according to Dale Myers “Newcomb/Adams note that the subcommittee hired "investigators" to place mail-orders with mail-order gun firms in order to determine if they were following federal and state laws”

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html

[Gil Jesus]

Can you cite the passage from the Senate hearings that indicated this? FWIW according to Dale Myers Newcomb/Adams note that the subcommittee hired "investigators" to place mail-orders with mail-order gun firms in order to determine if they were following federal and state laws

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html

No I can't because the Subcommittee never published a report. It also never made any recommendations. It's work was never released to the public, although it remains in the public record.

But I do have evidence that a "certificate of good character" was needed for a handgun purchase in Texas in 1963. The support comes from the University of Pennsylvania Law School, which did a law review in 1950 on gun control.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/FJK.htm

Part way down the page, you'll read:

Permit to Purchase. A few states require the obtaining of a permit to purchase, or the possession of a license to carry, as a prerequisite to the purchase of a firearm. Along this line, Texas requires a certificate of good character from the judge of the county of residence, and New Hampshire a permit only for felons and aliens.[ 39 ]

The # 39 footnote references TEX. PENAL CODE, art. 489a (Vernon, 1925)

And no, I don't have that book either.

But the point is that until the Federal Firearms Act of 1968, the states determined how its citizens obtained handguns. In Texas, the requirement was clear: a handgun purchase had to be approved by a judge in the county where you lived.

And that was the law from at least 1925.

Since no evidence exists that the law was changed between 1950 and 1963, and since the Subcommittee cited the same Texas requirement in 1963 as the U of P Law Review did in 1950, we must conclude that what was the law in 1925 and 1950 was the law in 1963 as well.

Absent evidence to the contrary, of that there can be no doubt.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Gil Jesus

[David Von Pein]

E-Mail message from Gary Mack:

"The answer is simple: the Texas state requirement to receive a certificate of good character would apply only to Texas retailers, not sellers in other states. Since Oswald ordered guns from Illinois and California, he was under no obligation to provide such a document to them, so no certificate was necessary." -- Gary Mack; March 10, 2012