John McAdams and Judyth Baker

[Kirk Gallaway]

David, I assume part of your attack on Michael, is also due to previous statements he has made.

David said,

So please Mike, is it too much to ask you bring one, the other, or both instead of this repeated whining about your inability to comprehend others time well spent according to them?

But Pam herself has admitted she was fooled by JVB, and whatever I may think of  ongoing delusional thinking. Of course the fact is, the one person who has spent a long time with JVB is Pam. She apparently bumped this thread, and has talked bitterly about her association with JVB in the past.I get the impression this was not time well spent for her or she wouldn't be so bitter about it. Though maybe she takes a philosophical attitude that at least she has learned from her mistake. Though I can't remember what parts of JVB's story she repudiates and which she supports.I certainly don't begrudge you and I don't consider it a waste of time for doing your due diligence.

The matter of waiting 30 years before outing themselves seems to be a matter where intelligent people can disagree. I tend to believe more like Michael. But in the case of JVB, it wasn't just that, it was the whole picture..

 

 

Then Lee said: "Judyth, I want to introduce you to my old friend, "Sparky" Rubenstien".----JVB

First the pseudonym, then the actual true last name? Just a bit too inside for me.

[Michael Walton]

David Josephs,

I can't help it that I have to see this case simply.  Many murder cases are simple.  Look at the Manson murders.  They tried to say it was because Manson wanted to start  a world war and all of that garbage.  It was much simpler than that - he simply held a grudge with Melcher because Melcher said he was going to publish his music.  When it didn't happen, and because CB was a psychopath, he wanted revenge. CB even went to Cielo a few weeks before the murders to confront Melcher.  When he learned that he was gone and saw the pregnant Tate there, he sent his minions a few weeks later and the rest is history.

The same with 11/22. You pretty much proved one important aspect of the frame up of LHO, that he was being manipulated and took the fall for the murder of Kennedy. And that he was not in MC. But it seems you and others like you don't want to leave well enough alone - you just keep going on and on and on with other silliness.

You see conspiracy everywhere, under every nook and cranny, even getting to the point where instead of proving a result with evidence, you're going in the opposite direction - deciding on a conclusion FIRST, then working your way backward to try to prove it. You brag you're a math major but math doesn't work that way either.

And as Kirk is saying here, you're arguing against what I'm saying here - Baker is a fraud - and yet it's OK that Brown has admitted that she was snookered by Baker and knows better.  Yet, when I call it out, I'm all wrong and confused and don't know any better. 

You're not always right on this case, David, but you're arrogance knows no bounds.  You're always right and try to prove with a confusing collage of documents and multiple arrows pointing all over the place. And all the rest of us who disagree are always wrong and stupid and confused and just...."hey, just go away."

Kirk - I'm curious.  That line at the end of your post about Sparky Rubenstein.  Did Baker actually say that in a book or something? If so, that should make a lot of alarm bells go off, but I guess people like Josephs are willing to just look away.

[George Sawtelle]

David and Joe

Using the IRS and Lousiana tax forms to rebut JVB's claims is ludicrous. Come on, 30 years after the fact do we expect her to have complete records of her tax returns. We're lucky the documents are not faded to the point they are unreadable. How many people in the US have complete documents of their IRS tax returns from 30 years back?

She showed the IRS forms to prove she worked at Reily. She showed a boatload of other evidence that proved she worked there so Copy A,B and C don't really matter.

David I read your Clinton account with regard to JVB, it's a stretch guy.

[David Josephs]

I'm with you George...

This entire discussion is a stretch.  Believe what you like.  JVB was never in Clinton with Lee Harvey.

What "boatload" by the way George... if you can link to it please or be specific that would be helpful...  if that was the case, this Copy B W-2 was the one she choose to represent her working there.Her form did not exist George.  It comes from a book of forms that also does not exist. (Much like Harry Holmes' Postal Money Order stub that never existed, from a book that never existed)  I see that as directly pertinent to her credibility...  

Michael - it's not worth getting into it.  But I will leave you with this example

In college a friend of mine was a music major.  I just loved music.
When we listened to music together, while we heard the same sounds, what we thought of them and at what level was very different.
My friend saw the repeating phrases and the counter-play of musical keys and how that overlaid into a larger musical pattern..

I just heard good music.  I never questioned why he heard it that way and thought it cool when he explained some of it to me because of the math involved.

We hear the music differently Mike...  

Sometimes you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right....

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Though I can't remember what parts of JVB's story she repudiates and which she supports.I certainly don't begrudge you and I don't consider it a waste of time for doing your due diligence.

Didn't mean to ignore you Kirk...  

I appreciate the simple act of not begrudging me my faults until you can show me how they may be detrimental to my health.. 

Regarding 30 years...  is O'Connor's story really that less amazing or believable...  or any less necessary?

I don't find the timeframe to be the problem if the evidence checked out.  It doesn't, so for me end of story.

Continually putting these events into CONTEXT helps me for one see connection better.  Add timeline and context becomes conspiratorial planning or just happenstance...

Mike says I see everything as a conspiracy.  "a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful" is an accepted definition of the word.

All of World History is defined by the success or failure of conspiracies.

The profound naivete it takes to accept the randomness of life.  
That's absurd, unless Mike, you can site examples.?

What profound events have occurred in the past 200 years, or 5000 years that you believe were NOT the result of some conspiracy.  
That things just "happened" that way.

I'm sorry that the concept of how humans created history scares you, it should.  

======================

Look around Mike... you believe what's going on in the world is just "happening"...  with no forethought or planning?

I don't know buddy...  I don't paint you as thinking there are NO conspiracies, don't paint me the opposite....
but you can be pretty sure if there are humans and a possible distinct advantage involved, you can be dam sure a conspiracy is in the works.

 

In Hardin's classic piece "The Tragedy of the Commons," a commons is a natural resource shared by many individuals.¹ In this context, "shared" means that each individual does not have a claim to any part of the resource, but rather, to the use of a portion of it for his/her own benefit. The tragedy is that, in the absence of regulation, each individual will have a tendency to exploit the commons to his/her own advantage, typically without limit. Under this state of affairs, the commons is depleted and eventually ruined.  (But only to the detriment of those who failed to usurp the shared resource)

At the root of the tragedy is the unrestrained self-interest of some individuals. The underlying reasoning is that if the commons is eventually going to be used up, whoever effects the greatest use stands to benefit the most. Under this circumstance, it is seen that the benefit/cost ratio is astronomical:  While the benefits accrue solely to the user, the costs are spread among all others sharing the commons

 

Even with regulation - we find the regs are usually drawn up by those being regulated and to their best interest while to the detriment of all others... 

I see our problems today coming from the lack of awareness to the industrial corporate state and the concepts of private property, sovereignty and international banking.  The law and banking has reached a level where no one other than bankers and lawyers know the workings.  So while the rich get the best doctors, they also get the best bankers and lawyers with direct access to the world's money supplies.

Not seeing this ongoing and simple plan come to fruition is understandable...  it's sold relentlessly as being in our best interests.

Pssst...  it's not.

.

[Joe Bauer]

If JVB actually quoted that supposed Jack Ruby introduction by Oswald ( I'd like you to meet my old friend Sparky Rubenstein ) then yes, I do believe that "many things" in her books ( like that quote ) are just made up and with each one it gets easier and easier to dismiss more and more of her story.

I have read many times where Jack Ruby hated that nickname "Sparky" and I could never envision Oswald using it to introduce him.

However, as Kirk mentioned, he could still believe that Oswald and Baker knew each other to some extent.

I do too.

I don't know exactly how long Oswald and Baker worked for the Reilly Coffee company, but even if it was just weeks, I stand by my speculation that it was probable that they met at some point getting off and on these buses ( which they both rode instead of driving cars ) day after day at the same location, at the same time and for the same work hour schedule. 

Anna Lewis.  Pam Brown says when she last heard from her that Ms. Lewis said she was laying low and fearing for her life.

It could be that what she is most afraid of is getting exposed as a xxxx in that interview and that in some way she was paid and coached for her statements?

But, maybe not.  If she told the truth in that interview then her fear for her life could be from what she knew and shared in that interview.

I don't think that Anna Lewis's interview and her statements in this regarding sitting with Lee Oswald and Baker at the same time and as a close couple ( true or not ) are inconsequential. I think that if her statements of this first hand witness account are true...then they are of HUGE importance in determining whether JVB's Oswald affair story is more true than not.

And just another thought regarding JVB waiting 30 years to tell her tale.

I think it makes more sense than not that she chose to wait this long to do this versus coming forward earlier.

Perhaps she didn't want to hurt her husband who she immediately hooked back up with after Oswald, by telling him of her supposed hot and heavy sexual affair while she was engaged to him?  Not to mention the weird covert doings that she was involved with at the same time and that would obviously shake him?

Women just didn't do this back then and still don't. They don't even share these affairs with their children.

Heck, my own mother never revealed to me to her dying breath ( I was 50 at the time )  that she had an affair while married to my birth certificate father and that this other man was my real father. I only discovered this by submitting genetic material ( along with one of my brothers ) to a renown recognized laboratory for a "sibling" test after she died.

The numbers don't lie. 

And it makes some sense that JVB could have been warned about her life if she revealed her NO activities and Oswald connection. Look, many witnesses to the Roswell incident were threatened like this, and took these threats so seriously they too didn't come out and share what they saw in July, 1947 until 25 to 30 years later also.

And I agree with George S. regards JVB's tax return.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Andrej Stancak]

Mrs. Baker is a highly intelligent lady, and knows all aspects of the assassination case like only few know. However, this is not what is expected from a witness - a witness should not investigate his/her case as any of his/her statements may be adjusted to what is known. As Mrs. Baker is both bright and creative and knowledgeable, and since there are too many holes in Lee Harvey Oswald's time line, she would be able to fill it in a credible way with her person even if it were not the truth. It is not that hard, however, it requires a lot of thinking, preparation and time. 

However, there are parts of the story which have never been analysed properly and which cast doubt on the essence of the story. Lee and Judy were supposed to work on a bioweapon which Lee would transport to Mexico where he would meet a contact, a young Cuban doctor, who would in turn arrange injection of living cancer cells into Castro's body. To make sure that the cancer cells would kill Castro, Castro would have to go for X ray(s) to suppress his own immunity. Well, this is a complete hoax. Living cells cannot be transported in a jar in a shopping bag for days. Living cells either need to be frozen or kept in a controlled solution in which ion concentrations and temperature would be continuously monitored - this requires a lab.  We cannot be injected cancer cell and die because those cells would be immediately recognised as coming from a foreign body (there is a marker called major histocompatibilty complex on every cell which tells whether the cell is own or foreign) and would be destroyed by recipient's own immune system. One can suppress the immune system by X-rays, however, each dose of such immunosuppressive X-ray would be about 10 times stronger than a standard diagnostic X-ray dose of radiation, and it would have to be repeated for quite many days. Would you believe that Castro's doctors would consent to it? Would Castro undergo such treatment without asking? At the end of the X-ray "therapy", Castro would be good to die without Judyth's injection anyway. Leukemia patients undergoing immunosuppression to receive bone marrow grafts are kept in ultra-protected environment because even such a minor infection as having a caries in one tooth would kill the patient.

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Michael Walton]

Very well said Andre. The transporting of live cells and the Sparky line move her silly story right up there with Oswald and his clone  and his sad/smiling mother.

And yet people continue  to fall for all of this nonsense? Simply amazing.

[Pamela Brown]

5 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Mrs. Baker is a highly intelligent lady, and knows all aspects of the assassination case like only few knows. However, this is not what is expected from a witness - a witness should not investigate his/her case as any of his/her statements may be adjusted to what is known. As Mrs. Baker is both bright and creative and knowledgeable, and since there are too many holes in Lee Harvey Oswald's time line, she would be able to fill it in a credible way with her person even if it were not the truth. It is not that hard, however, it requires a lot of thinking, preparation and time. 

However, there are parts of the story which have never been analysed properly and which cast doubt on the essence of the story. Lee and Judy were supposed to work on a bioweapon which Lee would transport to Mexico where he would meet a contact, a young Cuban doctor, who would in turn arrange injection of living cancer cells into Castro's body. To make sure that the cancer cells would kill Castro, Castro would have to go for X ray(s) to suppress his own immunity. Well, this is a complete hoax. Living cells cannot be transported in a jar in a shopping bag for days. Living cells either need to be frozen or kept in a controlled solution in which ion concentrations and temperature would be continuously monitored - this requires a lab.  We cannot be injected cancer cell and die because those cells would be immediately recognised as coming from a foreign body (there is a marker called major histocombatibilty complex on every cell which tells whether the cell is own or foreign) and would be destroyed by recipient's own immune system. One can suppress the immune system by X-rays, however, each dose of such immunosuppressive X-ray would be about 10 times stronger than a standard diagnostic X-ray dose of radiation, and it would have to be repeated for quite many days. Would you believe that Castro's doctors would consent to it? Would Castro undergo such treatment without asking? At the end of the X-ray "therapy", Castro would be good to die without Judyth's injection anyway. Leukemia patients undergoing immunosuppression to receive bone marrow grafts are kept in ultra-protected environment because even such a minor infection as having a caries in one tooth would kill the patient.

 

 

 

The bioweapon is the achilles heel of Judyth's statements, imo.  It fits in nicely with her experiments with mice as a teenager.  However, I think this is something she and Haslam cooked up.  

In addition, Judyth said on a number of occasions that she had told her sister Debbee about having an affair with LHO right after the assassination.  Whether or not she actually did have an affair, I do think she said this to Debbee.  Debbee has gone on record that she did.  However, Judyth made one glaring omission -- she did not say one word to Debbee about the bioweapon plot.  I think that was because, in late 1963, there was none, even in her imagination. 

[Pamela Brown]

48 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

Very well said Andre. The transporting of live cells and the Sparky line move her silly story right up there with Oswald and his clone  and his sad/smiling mother.

And yet people continue  to fall for all of this nonsense? Simply amazing.

My my, you seem to sit on a bit of a high horse, Michael, in that statement.  Unfortunately, picking and choosing whom to 'believe' or 'disbelieve' can leave one without any intellectual curiosity.  

[Pamela Brown]

16 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

But Pam herself has admitted she was fooled by JVB,

Huh? Do you mean me? 

I never said that I was 'fooled' by JVB.  Please don't misquote me.  In fact, I was forewarned.  By the time Judyth got around to me in 2003, she had already plowed her way through all the most prominent researchers, trying to get them to compromise themselves.  I wanted to see what was going on, so when she asked me to become part of her group I told her I would keep an open mind until her book was published.  I call the experience 'finding Judyth' -- hence, the title of my blog.  

BTW, I don't like being called "Pam".  That is not my name. 

[Pamela Brown]

On 6/4/2017 at 6:50 AM, Michael Walton said:

Pamela Brown, among others, was one of faker Judy Baker's acolytes? For seven years? Who knew?

No, I was never an 'acolyte'. I agreed to keep an open mind.  I wanted to find the truth about Judyth.  I was willing to be objective. She was turning the entire research community upside down and causing some people I greatly respected to behave very badly.  I wanted answers.  And I found them. Hence, my blog Finding Judyth. You might want to check it out before you make any more erroneous statements about my position on Judyth.  

[Pamela Brown]

On 6/4/2017 at 0:15 AM, George Sawtelle said:

Pamela

The link shows the`sketch, pg 39. It's difficult to understand the sketch Oswald did  not provide notes. But on pg 292 of her book, "Me and Lee", she explains the sketch.

I'm not sure where the apartment is located. It was the` last apartment she had before leaving for Florida. Her landlady was`named Suzie.   

Hi George,

Well, I read right past that discussion in M+L.  Thank you for pointing it out.  This was the NOLA apartment that she rented from Susie during the summer of 1963 with her husband Robert.  I don't know if there was an objective drawing (done by someone other than Judyth) of that apartment, so there does not seem to be any way to validate what she is saying about the WC exhibit.  This may be a very good example of how Judyth can take a piece of actual documentation and make it work for her and her story, but at this point I can't say that for sure.  I am wondering if the WC had any other explanation for this diagram being in LHO's address book?  

[David Josephs]

Thanks for clearing all that up Pam....

I for one am not a proponent of para-phrasing others...  invariably it gets done like a game of telephone and misrepresents the original sentiment.

Maybe you can help me and the others out as well...

Here is the entire bus route to Reilly from 4907 Magazine....   Does JVB ever say where her apartment is and which busline she took with Ozzie?

"19-year-old Baker arrived in New Orleans two weeks early due to UF’s new trimester system, but to her dismay, both Ochsner and Sherman were out of town. Her fiancé, who only knew that Baker had “plans to work” in New Orleans, was not due to arrive until May, at which time an elopement was planned, but in the meantime, Baker needed emergency funds. Unwilling to ask for help from her parents, she began temporary work at a Royal Castle near the airport. This restaurant was then being used by a government surveillance team to spy on the powerful Mafia leader, Carlos Marcello, whose office behind the Town & Country Motel was just next door. Robert Kennedy had forcibly deported Marcello, who had defiantly returned to the US and was now involved in a deportation court case that he would win on November 22^nd, the same day Kennedy was shot."

and

"Abandoned by her new husband, who immediately left town after their marriage without providing contact information, and with Ochsner and Sherman still unavailable,<!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[vii]<!--[endif]--> on May 4, 1963 Baker turned to Oswald after she was evicted in the middle of the night due to a police raid from her rented room. Baker told witnesses of her plans to enter Tulane Medical School in New Orleans in the Fall, unaware that she would spend the summer helping to develop a biological weapon using cancer under Ochsner’s and Sherman’s direction. "

On May 4, a Saturday, Oswald is still staying at 757 French in New Orleans - Lillian Murret's, his mother's sister and husband, until he found the place on Magazine via Myrtle Evans...  What did Oswald do for Judy in the middle of the night on May 4?  He didn't bring her to the Murrert's or the Evans'.  This is how Lillian remembers it.

When we were walking down the steps, I looked at him real hard like, and I didn't recognize him, but something made me ask him, "I know you, don't I?" and he said, "Sure; I am Lee Oswald; I was just waiting to see when you were going to recognize me." I said, "Lee Oswald, what are you doing in this country? I thought you were in Russia. I thought you had given up your American citizenship and gone behind the Iron Curtain," and he said, "No," he said, "I went over there," he said, "but I didn't give up my citizenship." He said he had been back in the States for quite a while, and that he had brought his Russian wife back with him ; so I told him I would help him look for a place; so I rang up this friend of mine, and I asked her, I said, "Vickie (Mrs Charles Maynard), do you happen to know where I can rent an apartment for a young couple with one little baby?" and she said, "Yes; Myrtle, I will take children. This is a little duplex," she said, and she said, "This is a nice little apartment, and I think they will like it," and I said, "How much?" and she said, "$65," and I said, "Well, he can't spend too much ; he is just getting a new job

Judy's "bio" continues

Baker documented how cover jobs were arranged for herself and Oswald, where they spent approximately half their time. Though she was a slow typist, Baker said arrangements were made to hire her as a secretary for former FBI agent William I. Monaghan, Wm. B. Reily Coffe Company’s Vice President of Security, Finance and Field Sales. After moving into nearby apartments the same week, Baker and Oswald rode the same bus to and from work together the next eleven weeks. Both Baker and Oswald began their employment on the same day, at a (then) small subsidiary company, Standard Coffee, owned by Reily, where their background reports were laundered and Baker was taught how to handle the Vice President’s secretarial duties. A week later, the two new employees were transferred together to Reily’s main company. WC documents support these facts

 

[Joe Bauer]

Pamela Brown, you mention JVB's sister Debbee as confirming JVB did tell her about her ( JVB's) affair with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Could you tell us the approximate time frame - month, year -  in which Debbee was told this by JVB ... according to Debbee ?

Did Debbee say this to you personally...or someone else?

Do you believe this affair story sharing claim by JVB's sister Debbee? If so why?

Is this Debbee of good and honest character  ( your feelings of such ) from what you may have seen or heard of her yourself in your years of contact with JVB?

If you believe Debbee's claim of being told of her sister's affair with LHO at such an early date after Oswald was murdered,  does your belief of this effect your take on the possibility of it actually being true?

What were Debbee's personal feelings about her sister Judyth?  Did Debbee ever give any hints that she thought her sister was anything close to the views of Judyth's worst critics?

Do you think Anna Lewis was coached ( and not telling the truth )  in her interview as shown on You Tube?

If as you mentioned about your last contact with Anna Lewis that she stated she feared for her personal safety and was not wanting public exposure because of her fears...what do you think Anna Lewis feels has caused these threats and who she feels are behind them? Or, is she simply a very insecure or maybe even mentally unstable person who  is creating this threat scenario in her own mind more than true reality.

Thanks ahead of time for any response to my questions.