The "other" film?

[Len Colby]

So is the thinking that this film is from a different position than the Zapruder and is not the Zapruder film in its original and unaltered state?

Yes. It appeared to be shot from a very similar position to that seen in the Zapruder film. I tend to believe that it was NOT the "unaltered"

Zapruder film because of certain differences. However, that possibility has not been ruled out. The very high quality of the film is also less

than consistent with what we see in the extant Zapruder film, among other things.

Can you provide the details of when you saw this mysterious other film?

Still waiting for an answer Greg

You can wait until hell freezes over...and them some more. I am not required to answer your pathetic, ill advised, distracting, no-count, out of context, ruminating, blovatious (ask Tink what that one means), meandering, mindless inquiry...or I'd have to "make a report" to YOUR superiors--and then you'd be sorry!

I've been in Hawaii with my bride for our anniversary for the past 10 days and will be here for several more. When I get back...perhaps hell will have frozen over. If not? .

My, my Greg, why so much hostility over a simple relevant question? And just how prey tell is asking the circumstances in which you saw the “other film” on a thread about the film in response to a post in which you claim to have seen it “ill advised, distracting, no-count, out of context, ruminating, blovatious (ask Tink what that one means), meandering [and] mindless? IF you have nothing to hide why must you be so evasive? This reminds me of when you refused to be upfront about your obvious error regarding Zapruder.

PS – “ruminating” and “blovatious” made no sense in context in which you used them, before using ‘big words’ you should verify what they mean.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Kathy Beckett
Phrase removed from quoted post

[Michael Hogan]

Nonsense, Dan Rather got it right.

From Pictures Of The Pain by Richard Trask, page 90:

The real controversy over Rather's description, however, was his mentioning that upon receiving the final shot, President Kennedy's head moved violently forward. Rather wrote of his description, "....I did it as well and as honestly as I could under the conditions," but he did blow a piece of the description. To the eye, the head moved decisively and forcefully backward. His misstatement would follow him when later researchers found this movement to be consistent with what they thought to be a front. and not back, gunshot entry.

Trask calls it a misstatement. Duncan claims Rather got it right.

Most people would go with Trask and view Duncan's statement as nonsense.

[Richard Hocking]

Dan Rather saw the Zapruder film within two days of the assassination and reported that " ,,, the Presidents head went forward with considerable violence...". There is no way to reconcile Rather's observation with the current Zapruder film which shows JFK being knocked back and to his left.

" Former FBI official and J. Edgar Hoover aide Cartha DeLoach recently provided further evidence of alteration in the Zapruder film (albeit unintentionally and unknowingly, I'm sure). DeLoach recalls in his book HOOVER'S FBI that he watched the Zapruder film at FBI HQ the day after the shooting and that he saw Kennedy "PITCHING SUDDENLY FORWARD" in the film. No such motion, of course, is seen in the current film."

Link from a post in another thread by Bernice Moore

Nonsense, Dan Rather got it right.

Regarding the 3 frame snippet posted by Duncan: the heads of Greer, Kellerman, Conally, Nellie and JFK all move forward towards the front of the limo a couple inches. All about the same distance as JFK's head. Should we surmise that all of their heads are "moving forward with considerable violence"?

Since none of the other occupants was hit in the head with a bullet, we are forced to consider other possible causes for the sudden movement of everyones heads: Braking of the Limo; removed frames or alteration of the film ... Either of these could explain what we see.

BTW, In my earlier post, I left out another quote by Rather in his report on what he saw in the film:

"... the film shows President Kennedy's open black limousine making a left turn off of Houston Street onto Elm Street... "

Obviously, Rather was not describing the current version of the Zapruder film.

[Richard Hocking]

Nonsense, Dan Rather got it right.

From Pictures Of The Pain by Richard Trask, page 90:

The real controversy over Rather's description, however, was his mentioning that upon receiving the final shot, President Kennedy's head moved violently forward. Rather wrote of his description, "....I did it as well and as honestly as I could under the conditions," but he did blow a piece of the description. To the eye, the head moved decisively and forcefully backward. His misstatement would follow him when later researchers found this movement to be consistent with what they thought to be a front. and not back, gunshot entry.

Trask calls it a misstatement. Duncan claims Rather got it right.

Most people would go with Trask and view Duncan's statement as nonsense.

Agree Michael. When viewed at normal speed, the forward motion is nearly imperceptible to most people.

[Todd W. Vaughan]

You must be new to this. Those who viewed the other film have been discussed for many years. From memory:

Rich DellaRosa...viewed numerous times under classified circumstances.

William Reymond...viewed numerous times courtesy of former intelligence agent.

Dan Marvin...viewed as a CIA training film.

Scott Meyer...Dallas researcher.

Milicent Cranor...saw it at a TV network.

Gregory Burnham...member of this forum.

...and I think one more. All of them reported:

LIMO TURNING CORNER FROM HOUSTON TO ELM

LIMO COMING TO STOP FOR ABOUT TWO SECONDS

Jack

In addition to the individuals listed above, there are a few others whose testimony indicates there was a different or "other" film of the assassination.

Dan Rather saw the Zapruder film within two days of the assassination and reported that " ,,, the Presidents head went forward with considerable violence...". There is no way to reconcile Rather's observation with the current Zapruder film which shows JFK being knocked back and to his left.

" Former FBI official and J. Edgar Hoover aide Cartha DeLoach recently provided further evidence of alteration in the Zapruder film (albeit unintentionally and unknowingly, I'm sure). DeLoach recalls in his book HOOVER'S FBI that he watched the Zapruder film at FBI HQ the day after the shooting and that he saw Kennedy "PITCHING SUDDENLY FORWARD" in the film. No such motion, of course, is seen in the current film."

Link from a post in another thread by Bernice Moore

Abraham Zapruder gave an interview soon after the assassination in which he stated that he started filming as the Limo was turning onto Elm Street. The current film does not include the Limo turning.

duplicate deleted TWV

Edited April 27, 2011 by Todd W. Vaughan

[Todd W. Vaughan]

You must be new to this. Those who viewed the other film have been discussed for many years. From memory:

Rich DellaRosa...viewed numerous times under classified circumstances.

William Reymond...viewed numerous times courtesy of former intelligence agent.

Dan Marvin...viewed as a CIA training film.

Scott Meyer...Dallas researcher.

Milicent Cranor...saw it at a TV network.

Gregory Burnham...member of this forum.

...and I think one more. All of them reported:

LIMO TURNING CORNER FROM HOUSTON TO ELM

LIMO COMING TO STOP FOR ABOUT TWO SECONDS

Jack

In addition to the individuals listed above, there are a few others whose testimony indicates there was a different or "other" film of the assassination.

Dan Rather saw the Zapruder film within two days of the assassination and reported that " ,,, the Presidents head went forward with considerable violence...". There is no way to reconcile Rather's observation with the current Zapruder film which shows JFK being knocked back and to his left.

" Former FBI official and J. Edgar Hoover aide Cartha DeLoach recently provided further evidence of alteration in the Zapruder film (albeit unintentionally and unknowingly, I'm sure). DeLoach recalls in his book HOOVER'S FBI that he watched the Zapruder film at FBI HQ the day after the shooting and that he saw Kennedy "PITCHING SUDDENLY FORWARD" in the film. No such motion, of course, is seen in the current film."

Link from a post in another thread by Bernice Moore

Abraham Zapruder gave an interview soon after the assassination in which he stated that he started filming as the Limo was turning onto Elm Street. The current film does not include the Limo turning.

Ah yes. Young Dan Rather.

Young Dan, who could/would never makes a mistake, who could/would never have just been talking out of his ass for more air time and a better story, and who could/would would never inflate his own self worth to get ahead at KRLD/CBS. Nope - instead Dan Rather, hand picked by the conspirators to help with the cover-up. The great COG in the vast conspiracy to kill JFK and then cover-up the truth.

DAN RATHER’S MONDAY MORNING MEETING WITH HIS JFK CONSPIRICY CONTACT

The scene – the KRLD TV break room. Dan Rather is sitting at a table with another man. They speak in hushed words.

DAN RATHER: OK, I go on the air in a few minutes. What’s my next assignment in the big JFK cover-up?

CONSPIRITOR 1: Did you see the film the bystander took?

DAN RATHER: Yep, I saw it this morning.

CONSPIRITOR 1: OK, go on TV and say you saw the film of the assassination. Then say when JFK was hit in the head, his head was driven FORWARD with considerable violence. You can even bob your head forward a bit for added effect.

DAN RATHER: OK, got it, no problem. Hey, by the way, what really happened to his head in the film I saw, it all happened so fast.

CONSPIRITOR 1: It did happen fast and is hard to see in only a few viewings – JFK’s head is really driven backward and to the left with considerable violence because we shot him from the front, as you know, Dan. But we want to make it look like he was shot from behind, so the CIA is altering the film to show his head driven forward.

DAN RATHER: Ohhhh, I get it. And by my saying I say the film and saw his head driven forward it will just add corroboration to the film when it’s done being altered.

CONSPIRITOR 1: Exactly. I knew we hand picked you to help us kill JFK for a reason - you’re sharp – you’re going places. Now, hop to it.

Rather leaves. Conspirator 1 goes back to drinking his coffee. After a few moments Conspirator 1 can see on the TV monitor in the KRLD lunchroom that Rather is now live on the air. After a few moments Conspirator 2 sits down across from Conspirator 1 with his coffee, unaware of Rather on TV behind him.

CONSPIRITOR 2: Hey, Conspirator 1, good thing I caught you. Change of plans, buddy. I just got of the horn with the CIA boys at NPIC and in altering the film, they found that they need to leave JFK’s head being driven backwards and to the left visible in the film. So, bottom line, we now don’t want Rather to say anything about the head going in any direction on the air.

At that instant, in the background, Dan Rather can be heard on live TV to say “his head was driven FORWARD with considerable force”.

CONSPIRITOR 2: Aghhjh! (as he spits his coffee all over CONSPIRITOR 1)"We're f$%ked!"

Edited April 27, 2011 by Todd W. Vaughan

[David G. Healy]

Agree Michael. When viewed at normal speed, the forward motion is nearly imperceptible to most people.

That's not the point, Richard. The point is that Rather was correct...PERIOD!!!

Oh Dunc, perhaps its all that hair, YOUR hair... that weighs you down, making faulty conclusions, misinterpretations, etc... there was a lot of that in the 60's if I recall, eh? And, can't get the debate your looking for on your own forum these days? Well now that's sad!

[David G. Healy]

hey Glen...

the silence mystifies, 6700 looks, 85+ responses.... get-a-grip laddie! Z-film alteration is alive and well...

[Michael Hogan]

Nonsense, Dan Rather got it right.

From Pictures Of The Pain by Richard Trask, page 90:

The real controversy over Rather's description, however, was his mentioning that upon receiving the final shot, President Kennedy's head moved violently forward. Rather wrote of his description, "....I did it as well and as honestly as I could under the conditions," but he did blow a piece of the description. To the eye, the head moved decisively and forcefully backward. His misstatement would follow him when later researchers found this movement to be consistent with what they thought to be a front. and not back, gunshot entry.

Trask calls it a misstatement. Duncan claims Rather got it right.

Most people would go with Trask and view Duncan's statement as nonsense.

Agree Michael. When viewed at normal speed, the forward motion is nearly imperceptible to most people.

For sure.

As you and most members of this forum know, it was Josiah Thompson who first made the public aware of the forward movement of the President’s head at the time of frames 312/313. He went to the National Archives and, using a technique developed by the brilliant Vincent Salandria, Thompson utilized two slide projectors simultaneously focused on the same spot in order that two Zapruder slides could be compared to each other. The process was tedious and Thompson could only make his final determination of dual head movement by carefully studying and measuring 8x 10 stills at the Life Magazine offices using a microscope and the assistance of a young physicist.

In Six Seconds in Dallas, Thompson claims that the President’s head is moving forward in frames 312-313. He writes:

Amazingly, in the very next frame, 314, it is already moving backward.

In any case, Thompson is describing an event that clearly is not visible to someone viewing the film from a projector, as Dan Rather was.

Sometimes Duncan doesn't read things very carefully, if at all. Sometimes he posts something so obviously in error, it is clear he didn't think things through before posting. He then tries to change the playing field. That's why it's a waste of time to debate him.

And when it comes to Dan Rather and the Zapruder film, Richard Trask is probably a more credible source than Duncan MacRae.

[Michael Hogan]

Sometimes Duncan doesn't read things very carefully, if at all. Sometimes he posts something so obviously in error, it is clear he didn't think things through before posting. He then tries to change the playing field. That's why it's a waste of time to debate him.

And when it comes to Dan Rather and the Zapruder film, Richard Trask is probably a more credible source than Duncan MacRae.

Richard posted that the head did not move forward.

I posted that the head did move forward with an image showing the forward movement.

The forward movement, however small, is accepted now and it has been for many years by everyone who isn't a little bit Cuckoo.

Whatever speed Rather viewed the film, he got it correct. That's a FACT!!!

What I wrote above is confirmed by your latest post. You misrepresent what Richard said and you misrepresent your response.

I could go back and fetch the quotes, but it's not worth it with you.

You can post about facts all you want and put the word in caps, but until you stick with what was actually said, your insistence

on what constitutes a fact is irrelevant and useless to the referenced discussion.

[Kathleen Collins]

Ah yes. Young Dan Rather.

Young Dan, who could/would never makes a mistake, who could/would never have just been talking out of his ass for more air time and a better story, and who could/would would never inflate his own self worth to get ahead at KRLD/CBS. Nope - instead Dan Rather, hand picked by the conspirators to help with the cover-up. The great COG in the vast conspiracy to kill JFK and then cover-up the truth.

DAN RATHER’S MONDAY MORNING MEETING WITH HIS JFK CONSPIRICY CONTACT

The scene – the KRLD TV break room. Dan Rather is sitting at a table with another man. They speak in hushed words.

DAN RATHER: OK, I go on the air in a few minutes. What’s my next assignment in the big JFK cover-up?

CONSPIRITOR 1: Did you see the film the bystander took?

DAN RATHER: Yep, I saw it this morning.

CONSPIRITOR 1: OK, go on TV and say you saw the film of the assassination. Then say when JFK was hit in the head, his head was driven FORWARD with considerable violence. You can even bob your head forward a bit for added effect.

DAN RATHER: OK, got it, no problem. Hey, by the way, what really happened to his head in the film I saw, it all happened so fast.

CONSPIRITOR 1: It did happen fast and is hard to see in only a few viewings – JFK’s head is really driven backward and to the left with considerable violence because we shot him from the front, as you know, Dan. But we want to make it look like he was shot from behind, so the CIA is altering the film to show his head driven forward.

DAN RATHER: Ohhhh, I get it. And by my saying I say the film and saw his head driven forward it will just add corroboration to the film when it’s done being altered.

CONSPIRITOR 1: Exactly. I knew we hand picked you to help us kill JFK for a reason - you’re sharp – you’re going places. Now, hop to it.

Rather leaves. Conspirator 1 goes back to drinking his coffee. After a few moments Conspirator 1 can see on the TV monitor in the KRLD lunchroom that Rather is now live on the air. After a few moments Conspirator 2 sits down across from Conspirator 1 with his coffee, unaware of Rather on TV behind him.

CONSPIRITOR 2: Hey, Conspirator 1, good thing I caught you. Change of plans, buddy. I just got of the horn with the CIA boys at NPIC and in altering the film, they found that they need to leave JFK’s head being driven backwards and to the left visible in the film. So, bottom line, we now don’t want Rather to say anything about the head going in any direction on the air.

At that instant, in the background, Dan Rather can be heard on live TV to say “his head was driven FORWARD with considerable force”.

CONSPIRITOR 2: Aghhjh! (as he spits his coffee all over CONSPIRITOR 1)"We're f$%ked!"

Maybe I missed something. Is this going to be a screenplay?

Kathy C

[Richard Hocking]

Sometimes Duncan doesn't read things very carefully, if at all. Sometimes he posts something so obviously in error, it is clear he didn't think things through before posting. He then tries to change the playing field. That's why it's a waste of time to debate him.

And when it comes to Dan Rather and the Zapruder film, Richard Trask is probably a more credible source than Duncan MacRae.

Richard posted that the head did not move forward.

I posted that the head did move forward with an image showing the forward movement.

The forward movement, however small, is accepted now and it has been for many years by everyone who isn't a little bit Cuckoo.

Whatever speed Rather viewed the film, he got it correct. That's a FACT!!!

What I wrote above is confirmed by your latest post. You misrepresent what Richard said and you misrepresent your response.

I could go back and fetch the quotes, but it's not worth it with you.

You can post about facts all you want and put the word in caps, but until you stick with what was actually said, your insistence

on what constitutes a fact is irrelevant and useless to the referenced discussion.

Thank you for the clarification, Michael.

I have never told anyone that JFK's head did not move forward. Anyone who has done still frame analysis of the Zapruder film knows there is forward movement of JFK's head between z312 and 313.

To get back on track with the theme of this thread, I added three names of individuals to Jack's list, who made statements that indicate there was (or still may be) a different film that showed actions or details that are not present in the current Zapruder film.

[David Andrews]

Duncan MacRae: Nonsense, Dan Rather got it right.

The heads of Kellerman and the Connallys start to move forward also c. Z-312. Did they all take a bullet then?

Is JFK's forward head motion the artifact of an edit-obscured limo stop?

Edited April 28, 2011 by David Andrews

[Michael Hogan]

What I wrote above is confirmed by your latest post. You misrepresent what Richard said and you misrepresent your response.

I could go back and fetch the quotes, but it's not worth it with you.

More Hogan Hogwash. I suggest a visit to Specsavers should be added to your "Things to do" list.

Here's Richard's quote.

Richard Hocking, on 27 April 2011 - 04:37 AM, said:

"There is no way to reconcile Rather's observation with the current Zapruder film which shows JFK being knocked back and to his left."

This is what Richard really wrote; contrast it with what Duncan wrote above:

In addition to the individuals listed above, there are a few others whose testimony indicates there was a different or "other" film of the assassination.

Dan Rather saw the Zapruder film within two days of the assassination and reported that " ,,, the Presidents head went forward with considerable violence...". There is no way to reconcile Rather's observation with the current Zapruder film which shows JFK being knocked back and to his left.

It's clear why Duncan felt it necessary to quote Richard out of context. How much extra effort would it have been to post the quote in full? None.

Duncan prefers to misrepresent what Richard wrote in a clumsy effort to mask his own nonsense, to borrow his word.

It was the entire quote that Duncan called "nonsense." Even though Trask affirmed what Richard wrote.

Trask trumps MacRae every time. Duncan's lame attempts may work on his forum, but they won't work here.

This is why attempting to discuss things with guys like Duncan is a waste of time. He can't bring himself to stick to what was actually said.

Duncan's arguments are often childish and this episode has been no exception.

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Ah yes. Young Dan Rather.

Young Dan, who could/would never makes a mistake, who could/would never have just been talking out of his ass for more air time and a better story, and who could/would would never inflate his own self worth to get ahead at KRLD/CBS. Nope - instead Dan Rather, hand picked by the conspirators to help with the cover-up. The great COG in the vast conspiracy to kill JFK and then cover-up the truth.

DAN RATHER’S MONDAY MORNING MEETING WITH HIS JFK CONSPIRICY CONTACT

The scene – the KRLD TV break room. Dan Rather is sitting at a table with another man. They speak in hushed words.

DAN RATHER: OK, I go on the air in a few minutes. What’s my next assignment in the big JFK cover-up?

CONSPIRITOR 1: Did you see the film the bystander took?

DAN RATHER: Yep, I saw it this morning.

CONSPIRITOR 1: OK, go on TV and say you saw the film of the assassination. Then say when JFK was hit in the head, his head was driven FORWARD with considerable violence. You can even bob your head forward a bit for added effect.

DAN RATHER: OK, got it, no problem. Hey, by the way, what really happened to his head in the film I saw, it all happened so fast.

CONSPIRITOR 1: It did happen fast and is hard to see in only a few viewings – JFK’s head is really driven backward and to the left with considerable violence because we shot him from the front, as you know, Dan. But we want to make it look like he was shot from behind, so the CIA is altering the film to show his head driven forward.

DAN RATHER: Ohhhh, I get it. And by my saying I say the film and saw his head driven forward it will just add corroboration to the film when it’s done being altered.

CONSPIRITOR 1: Exactly. I knew we hand picked you to help us kill JFK for a reason - you’re sharp – you’re going places. Now, hop to it.

Rather leaves. Conspirator 1 goes back to drinking his coffee. After a few moments Conspirator 1 can see on the TV monitor in the KRLD lunchroom that Rather is now live on the air. After a few moments Conspirator 2 sits down across from Conspirator 1 with his coffee, unaware of Rather on TV behind him.

CONSPIRITOR 2: Hey, Conspirator 1, good thing I caught you. Change of plans, buddy. I just got of the horn with the CIA boys at NPIC and in altering the film, they found that they need to leave JFK’s head being driven backwards and to the left visible in the film. So, bottom line, we now don’t want Rather to say anything about the head going in any direction on the air.

At that instant, in the background, Dan Rather can be heard on live TV to say “his head was driven FORWARD with considerable force”.

CONSPIRITOR 2: Aghhjh! (as he spits his coffee all over CONSPIRITOR 1)"We're f$%ked!"

Maybe I missed something. Is this going to be a screenplay?

Kathy C

Isn't it kind of already?

Filming begins tomorrow.