Did the limo stop? Really?

[Pat Speer]

Since Daniel seems to think the ratio of those claiming the limo stopped will change if we include those in the motorcade, I went ahead and searched for the words "stop" and "halt" in chapters 5b and 6.

Governor John Connally sat in the limo in front of Kennedy. (6-22-64 interview on television station KRLD, most of which was re-broadcast on CBS 9-27-64)“I saw the two Secret Service men in the front seat. I heard what they said…Roy Kellerman, who was in the right front, between the second and the third shot—between the time I was hit and between the time of the third shot—both the driver and Roy were looking back into the seat to see what had happened. This was all, again, happening in a matter of seconds and they both had a look of almost consternation on their face. Roy, in the right seat turned around, on a radio communication, obviously working something on the panel of the car, and said, “Get out of the line.” And then he said, apparently over the radio, “Get us to a hospital quick.” So we immediately pulled out of the caravan and began picking up speed….No, the car never stopped."

Never stopped.

B.J. Martin rode his motorcycle on the far left behind Jackie Kennedy. (2-14-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) "It was after the third shot it had almost came to a stop, it was going very slow.”

It almost came to a stop, i.e. it never came to a stop.

Bobby W. Hargis rode to the right of Martin and to the left of Mrs. Kennedy. (11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit. Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun."

Hargis thought he saw the limousine stop.

Douglas Jackson rode on the far right of the President. (Notes written on the night of 11-22-63 as reprinted in The Kennedy Assassination Tapes, 1979)"About that time I heard what I thought was a car back fire and I looked around and then to the President’s car in time for the next explosion and saw Mr. Connally jerk back to his right and it seemed that he look right at me. I could see a shocked expression on his face and I thought 'Someone is shooting at them.' I began stopping my motor and looking straight ahead first at the Railroad overpass and saw only one Policeman standing on the track directly over the street." (As quoted by Fred Newcomb in Murder from Within, an unpublished manuscript from 1974) ""Mr. Connally was looking toward me. And about that time then the second shot went off. That's the point when I knew that somebody was shooting at them because that was the time he [Connally] got hit - because he jerked. I was looking directly at him…he was looking…kind of back toward me and…he just kind of flinched." "…that car just all but stopped…just a moment." (9-17-75 FBI report) "At this point, Jackson had just rounded the corner from Houston to Elm Street and he recognized the second noise as a definite gunshot…At this point, he was 15 to 20 feet away from the Presidential vehicle and he stopped his motorcycle in the street and looked toward the railroad overpass, directly in front of the Presidential car."

Jackson admitted in his notes that he stopped but says nothing about the limo. He then later told Newcomb the limo all but stopped, i.e. that it slowed way down, but did not come to a dead stop.

Senator Ralph Yarborough sat the on the back seat behind the driver of the Vice-Presidential car. (7-10-64 affidavit, 7H439-440) “as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast, close by….When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After what I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots (calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot…) a third shot was fired. After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up…" (Interview with Jim Marrs published in Crossfire, 1989) "I thought 'Was that a bomb thrown?" and then the other shots were fired. And the motorcade, which had slowed to a stop, took off." (1-18-92 Interview with Deborah and Gerald Strober, published in Let us Begin Anew, 1993) "The third one caused my confusion there. Immediately after the first shot the motorcade slowed up--slowed up to just nearly a walk. I thought it stopped. And I could smell smoke--gunsmoke --'cause it's coming down from that rifle right over us; we were in the back seat, behind it, that second shot, then it came. It was just like counting: one, two, three. I thought: My goodness. Was there a bomb? What's that smoke up there? And what are they stopping for?"

Discussed the motorcade coming to a stop, and not the limo.

Milton Wright was the driver of the next car in the motorcade, the car of Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell. (8-28-98 letter to Vince Palamara quoted in JFK: The Medical Evidence Reference) “As we were turning in front of the book depository, the first shot was fired. When the second shot was fired I believed that it came from the book building. I stopped and was looking at the building when the third shot was fired.”

Admits he stopped, which would undoubtedly cause the cars behind him to stop.

Jack Bell was a newsman for the AP in the back seat of the next car. (11-22-63 eyewitness account written for the Associated Press, found in the 11-22-63 Spokane Spokesman-Review and the 11-23-63 New York Times) "There was a loud bang as though a giant firecracker had exploded in the caverns between the tall buildings we were just leaving behind us. In quick succession there were two other loud reports...The reports sounded like rifle shots. The man in front of me shouted 'My God, they're shooting at the president!' Our driver braked the car sharply and we swung the doors open to leap out. Suddenly the procession, which had halted, shot forward again." (11-22-64 AP article found in the Ada Oklahoma Evening News) "The President's auto, four cars ahead, already had made the turn toward the underpass and we had just completed it when there was a loud report. My first thought was: Those Texans, now they're shooting off giant firecrackers. Then came two more reports, paced possibly five seconds apart. They had the ominous sound of rifle crack. The President's car had stopped. We reporters riding 'pool' scrambled to get out to run ahead. But at almost that instant, a Secret Service man, riding in the front seat of the presidential limousine stood up, phone in hand, and waved the preceding police cruiser on." (11-23-66 AP article found in the Oil City Pennsylvania Derrick) "Then there was a second crack, unmistakably that of a rifle. It was followed in about five seconds by a third. Then there was a moment of awful silence, broken by shrill cries and screams. People scurried toward whatever protection they could find. As we scrambled back into our car, the motorcade, which had halted, was moving again."

Initially discussed the procession coming to a halt, then later sweetened his story with tales of the limo coming to a halt and Kellerman standing up in the front seat, then returned to claiming merely that the motorcade halted.

Bob Clark of ABC News was in the back seat as well. (Phoned-in recap, broadcast around 2:10 PM, 11-22-63) "We had just rounded the corner at the fringe of the business district when three shots suddenly rang out. They sounded at this stage like an automobile backfiring. They were extremely loud...We heard the shots very clearly but it was almost inconceivable at this stage that this was an assassination. Then three or four seconds elapsed before the car that the president was traveling in--this car came to an immediate stop. The Secret Service follow-up car--some of the agents piled out then almost immediately leaped back in."

Clark, as Bell, was trying to see what was going on from the back seat of a crowded hard-topped car about 150 feet away from the limo at the time of the shooting. One might assume he guessed the limo stopped based upon the behavior of the cars in front of him.

Dave Wiegman, a cameraman, sat on the right side of the front seat of a convertible press car several cars behind Bell and Clark. (Pictures of the Pain, p.371-372, Trask interview 3-18-89) “I don’t think I was fast enough to react to the second, but I think on the third one I was running. The car had slowed down enough for me to jump out…I jumped and I remember running and I heard the third shot … I’d done this before in other motorcades because a lot of times the President will stop and do something …The motorcade has stopped, plus you heard a report."

Says motorcade stopped. Says nothing about the limo, which he could not see when the first shot was fired.

Henry Burroughs was in yet another press car back behind the car holding Weigman. (10-14-98 letter to Vince Palamara quoted in JFK: The Medical Evidence Reference) “After the President’s limousine turned the corner at the book depository we could not see him, but we heard the shots, and the motorcade stopped.”

Says motorcade stopped, Nothing about the limo.

James Underwood sat in the front seat of camera car #3, which has just rounded the corner onto Houston Street at frame 160. (4-1-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H 167-171) "By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car stopped."

Says motorcade stopped. Nothing about the limo.

Tom Dillard sat in the right front seat of camera car # 3 and took photographs of the school book depository after the shots. (11-25-63 FBI report, CD5, p.16) “Mr. Dillard stated the car in which he was riding had not approached the corner of Houston and Elm Streets when he heard a noise sounding like a “torpedo” (a large firecracker). He states upon hearing another sound similar to the first he realized it was gunfire. He states that upon hearing the third shot the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.”

The car in which he was riding stopped. Nothing about the limo.

H.B. McLain is the motorcycle office riding alongside camera car # 3 in the Hughes frame corresponding to Zapruder frame 160. (The Kennedy Assassination Tapes, 1979) “As the President got around onto Elm Street, I was approaching the middle of the block between Main and Elm. It was along there that I heard a shot. I suppose it was the first shot because I looked up and saw the pigeons flushed from their roost on top of the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. I was either stopped or stopping at the time. I looked around in an effort to determine what had happened."(No More Silence p.162-168, published 1998) “When I made the turn onto Houston on the left side, we had caught up with the cars in front of us, and I had stopped right by the side of the entrance to the old jail, which is about midway between Main and Houston Streets on Houston. I heard one very clear shot, threw my head out and it appeared that about 5,000 pigeons flew out from behind that building straight ahead….But I could see the limousine off to my left on Elm, and saw Mrs. Kennedy crawling on the back of the car.”

Motorcade stopped. Nothing about the limo stopping.

Congressman Henry Gonzalez, was, apparently, in one of the next cars. (11-23-63 UPI article found in the San Antonio Light) "The terrain was such that it must have been carefully selected by the assassin. The motorcade moved down an incline and went under an overpass. It had slowed to a halt at this point. Part of the entourage was excluded from view of the other cars. The terrain was well selected for the act."(3-16-64 UPI article found in the Brownsville Texas Herald) "Gonzalez said he was in the sixth car in the motorcade and was sitting on the left hand side of the car in the rear. The congressman said when the first shot was fired the car stopped just in the intersection of Houston and Elm streets." (8-25-75 UPI article found in the Fort Pierce Florida News Tribune) "Gonzalez said he was in the motorcade in Dallas when President Kennedy was slain. "I have never mentioned this to anyone before. But when the first shot sounded, the cars were already at a complete halt or just crawling. Odd that we should have come to a virtual stop even before the first shot, at the exact spot."

Motorcade slowed to a halt. Virtual stop. Gonzalez was actually much further back in the motorcade then he remembered and could not see the limo at the time of the shots.

J.W. Courson rode a motorcycle in the motorcade by the press bus. (No More Silence, p.127-131, published 1998) “All was going well until we had just made a right turn from Main onto Houston Street due to the limousine having to make the sharp left turn up ahead which slowed the motorcade. We had to stop, thus I was sitting on my motorcycle in the left lane on Houston looking more or less at the Book Depository. That’s when I heard the shots! I couldn’t tell exactly from where the shots came because of the echo pattern, but there were three very distinct shots. The first two were fairly close together then there was more space between the second and third. I could tell that they came from one location, but really I was concentrating more on the President and seeing if they needed help up ahead. I looked to my left…The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner on Elm. Then the Secret Service agent helped push her back in the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed.“

Courson was much further back in the motorcade than he lets on and it's doubtful he saw what he claims to have seen. Nevertheless, he did say the limo stopped.

Stavis Ellis was one of the motorcycle officers out in front of the lead car. (The Kennedy Assassination Tapes, 1979) Officer A “when the first shot was fired, I was looking directly at the President, and I saw the concrete burst into a cloud of dust when the bullet hit the curb. I noticed, too, that with the shot, some people started running in every direction, while several people hit the ground…Then while looking back at the President, I heard the second shot. The President became rigid and grabbed his neck. It also seemed like the limousine stopped or almost stopped, and agents from the following car started running toward the President’s limousine."

Unsure if it stopped.

Once again this is a mixed bag. Some said it stopped. Some said it did not. There's certainly nothing here to make one rationally conclude the limo stopped, and that all the films are fake.

[Pat Speer]

This argument becomes a battle in semantics. Did the limo actually stop, or merely slow down? What does slow down mean, exactly? Are we going to get to the point where we adopt the Clintonian logic of "what is is?"

There was something so noticable about the speed of the motorcade, or limo specifically, that numerous witnesses volunteered their observations on it during their testimony. Whether the limo slowed down or actually stopped, the driver was not following normal procedures. At the sound of gunfire, William Greer didn't step on the gas, per his training. Instead, he hit the brakes and actually turned around to look at the President. Apparently, hands thrust up to his neck and a distressed look on his face weren't enough to motivate this professional to respond properly. Why?

This may all be just another part of the parlor game- did the limo stop or just slow down? However, those who argue that the witnesses who noticed this were mistaken become, in effect, defenders of the Secret Service detail that failed JFK so miserably. If there was something strange or improper about the limo's speed at the time of the shooting, then the Secret Service must be held accountable for that. This has all been debated numerous times, but I just don't see how anyone can defend what Greer did that day. It can't be standard procedure to slow down and look over your shoulder at the sound of gunfire.

Some want to excuse the negligence of the Secret Service in Dallas. I think that's absurd, given the indications we have all of them failed to do their job that day. Thus, I think this issue is a part of that whole debate regarding the performance of the Secret Service. How do those who think all those witnesses who reported the limo stopped/ significantly slowed down feel about the performance of JFK's Secret Service detail?

Not sure what you mean, Don. This thread is not a defense of Greer or the Secret Service. No one of whom I'm aware--including lone nutters--thinks Greer's performance was adequate. This thread is about the eyewitness evidence. For years some have claimed the lack of a limo stop in the Z-film proves it was faked. It has long been shown that many of those used to support this claim actually claimed the motorcade stopped, as opposed to the limo, or that the limo slowed. In several recent threads, however, I've seen Daniel, if I recall, claim that, even without those witnesses, the claim the limo stopped is solid, based upon the words of those closest to the limo. I created this thread, then, to see just how solid.

I see Daniel's point. Several close-up witnesses--Hargis, Newman--said at one time or another that the limo stopped. But I also have come to conclude that he is ultimately incorrect, IMO, in that others such as Altgens and Connally insisted that it did not stop, and many others said it almost came to a stop, which is to affirm that it did not stop.

[Pat Speer]

name='Daniel Gallup' date='08 June 2011 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1307501448' post='227999']

But Jim, I also base my case not only on those who said it stopped, and that includes several of the motorcycle officers around the limo, but also on the lack of spray exiting the back of Kennedy's head at Z 313, which should have been one of the most prominent features of that frame.

Please tell us why the spray should be seen coming out of the back of JFK's head??? I am certain that you have participated in threads where I posted how back spatter moves slower than the debris traveling in the direction of the bullet.

Zapruder's camera was only running at 18fps and unless his shutter opened almost at the exact moment that the bullet broke through the skull ... the spray moving near the speed of the projectile could not possibly be seen with Zapruder's camera.

Where do you get this, Bill? I've seen plenty of images in which backspatter and forward spatter are present.

Is it your position that when the forward spatter on the right of the melon disappears, there will still be plenty of backspatter apparent on the left?

Edited June 8, 2011 by Pat Speer

[Daniel Gallup]

Since Daniel seems to think the ratio of those claiming the limo stopped will change if we include those in the motorcade, I went ahead and searched for the words "stop" and "halt" in chapters 5b and 6.

Governor John Connally sat in the limo in front of Kennedy. (6-22-64 interview on television station KRLD, most of which was re-broadcast on CBS 9-27-64)“I saw the two Secret Service men in the front seat. I heard what they said…Roy Kellerman, who was in the right front, between the second and the third shot—between the time I was hit and between the time of the third shot—both the driver and Roy were looking back into the seat to see what had happened. This was all, again, happening in a matter of seconds and they both had a look of almost consternation on their face. Roy, in the right seat turned around, on a radio communication, obviously working something on the panel of the car, and said, “Get out of the line.” And then he said, apparently over the radio, “Get us to a hospital quick.” So we immediately pulled out of the caravan and began picking up speed….No, the car never stopped."

Never stopped.

B.J. Martin rode his motorcycle on the far left behind Jackie Kennedy. (2-14-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) "It was after the third shot it had almost came to a stop, it was going very slow.”

It almost came to a stop, i.e. it never came to a stop.

Bobby W. Hargis rode to the right of Martin and to the left of Mrs. Kennedy. (11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit. Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun."

Hargis thought he saw the limousine stop.

Douglas Jackson rode on the far right of the President. (Notes written on the night of 11-22-63 as reprinted in The Kennedy Assassination Tapes, 1979)"About that time I heard what I thought was a car back fire and I looked around and then to the President’s car in time for the next explosion and saw Mr. Connally jerk back to his right and it seemed that he look right at me. I could see a shocked expression on his face and I thought 'Someone is shooting at them.' I began stopping my motor and looking straight ahead first at the Railroad overpass and saw only one Policeman standing on the track directly over the street." (As quoted by Fred Newcomb in Murder from Within, an unpublished manuscript from 1974) ""Mr. Connally was looking toward me. And about that time then the second shot went off. That's the point when I knew that somebody was shooting at them because that was the time he [Connally] got hit - because he jerked. I was looking directly at him…he was looking…kind of back toward me and…he just kind of flinched." "…that car just all but stopped…just a moment." (9-17-75 FBI report) "At this point, Jackson had just rounded the corner from Houston to Elm Street and he recognized the second noise as a definite gunshot…At this point, he was 15 to 20 feet away from the Presidential vehicle and he stopped his motorcycle in the street and looked toward the railroad overpass, directly in front of the Presidential car."

Jackson admitted in his notes that he stopped but says nothing about the limo. He then later told Newcomb the limo all but stopped, i.e. that it slowed way down, but did not come to a dead stop.

Senator Ralph Yarborough sat the on the back seat behind the driver of the Vice-Presidential car. (7-10-64 affidavit, 7H439-440) “as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast, close by….When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After what I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots (calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot…) a third shot was fired. After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up…" (Interview with Jim Marrs published in Crossfire, 1989) "I thought 'Was that a bomb thrown?" and then the other shots were fired. And the motorcade, which had slowed to a stop, took off." (1-18-92 Interview with Deborah and Gerald Strober, published in Let us Begin Anew, 1993) "The third one caused my confusion there. Immediately after the first shot the motorcade slowed up--slowed up to just nearly a walk. I thought it stopped. And I could smell smoke--gunsmoke --'cause it's coming down from that rifle right over us; we were in the back seat, behind it, that second shot, then it came. It was just like counting: one, two, three. I thought: My goodness. Was there a bomb? What's that smoke up there? And what are they stopping for?"

Discussed the motorcade coming to a stop, and not the limo.

Milton Wright was the driver of the next car in the motorcade, the car of Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell. (8-28-98 letter to Vince Palamara quoted in JFK: The Medical Evidence Reference) “As we were turning in front of the book depository, the first shot was fired. When the second shot was fired I believed that it came from the book building. I stopped and was looking at the building when the third shot was fired.”

Admits he stopped, which would undoubtedly cause the cars behind him to stop.

Jack Bell was a newsman for the AP in the back seat of the next car. (11-22-63 eyewitness account written for the Associated Press, found in the 11-22-63 Spokane Spokesman-Review and the 11-23-63 New York Times) "There was a loud bang as though a giant firecracker had exploded in the caverns between the tall buildings we were just leaving behind us. In quick succession there were two other loud reports...The reports sounded like rifle shots. The man in front of me shouted 'My God, they're shooting at the president!' Our driver braked the car sharply and we swung the doors open to leap out. Suddenly the procession, which had halted, shot forward again." (11-22-64 AP article found in the Ada Oklahoma Evening News) "The President's auto, four cars ahead, already had made the turn toward the underpass and we had just completed it when there was a loud report. My first thought was: Those Texans, now they're shooting off giant firecrackers. Then came two more reports, paced possibly five seconds apart. They had the ominous sound of rifle crack. The President's car had stopped. We reporters riding 'pool' scrambled to get out to run ahead. But at almost that instant, a Secret Service man, riding in the front seat of the presidential limousine stood up, phone in hand, and waved the preceding police cruiser on." (11-23-66 AP article found in the Oil City Pennsylvania Derrick) "Then there was a second crack, unmistakably that of a rifle. It was followed in about five seconds by a third. Then there was a moment of awful silence, broken by shrill cries and screams. People scurried toward whatever protection they could find. As we scrambled back into our car, the motorcade, which had halted, was moving again."

Initially discussed the procession coming to a halt, then later sweetened his story with tales of the limo coming to a halt and Kellerman standing up in the front seat, then returned to claiming merely that the motorcade halted.

Bob Clark of ABC News was in the back seat as well. (Phoned-in recap, broadcast around 2:10 PM, 11-22-63) "We had just rounded the corner at the fringe of the business district when three shots suddenly rang out. They sounded at this stage like an automobile backfiring. They were extremely loud...We heard the shots very clearly but it was almost inconceivable at this stage that this was an assassination. Then three or four seconds elapsed before the car that the president was traveling in--this car came to an immediate stop. The Secret Service follow-up car--some of the agents piled out then almost immediately leaped back in."

Clark, as Bell, was trying to see what was going on from the back seat of a crowded hard-topped car about 150 feet away from the limo at the time of the shooting. One might assume he guessed the limo stopped based upon the behavior of the cars in front of him.

Dave Wiegman, a cameraman, sat on the right side of the front seat of a convertible press car several cars behind Bell and Clark. (Pictures of the Pain, p.371-372, Trask interview 3-18-89) “I don’t think I was fast enough to react to the second, but I think on the third one I was running. The car had slowed down enough for me to jump out…I jumped and I remember running and I heard the third shot … I’d done this before in other motorcades because a lot of times the President will stop and do something …The motorcade has stopped, plus you heard a report."

Says motorcade stopped. Says nothing about the limo, which he could not see when the first shot was fired.

Henry Burroughs was in yet another press car back behind the car holding Weigman. (10-14-98 letter to Vince Palamara quoted in JFK: The Medical Evidence Reference) “After the President’s limousine turned the corner at the book depository we could not see him, but we heard the shots, and the motorcade stopped.”

Says motorcade stopped, Nothing about the limo.

James Underwood sat in the front seat of camera car #3, which has just rounded the corner onto Houston Street at frame 160. (4-1-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H 167-171) "By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car stopped."

Says motorcade stopped. Nothing about the limo.

Tom Dillard sat in the right front seat of camera car # 3 and took photographs of the school book depository after the shots. (11-25-63 FBI report, CD5, p.16) “Mr. Dillard stated the car in which he was riding had not approached the corner of Houston and Elm Streets when he heard a noise sounding like a “torpedo” (a large firecracker). He states upon hearing another sound similar to the first he realized it was gunfire. He states that upon hearing the third shot the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.”

The car in which he was riding stopped. Nothing about the limo.

H.B. McLain is the motorcycle office riding alongside camera car # 3 in the Hughes frame corresponding to Zapruder frame 160. (The Kennedy Assassination Tapes, 1979) “As the President got around onto Elm Street, I was approaching the middle of the block between Main and Elm. It was along there that I heard a shot. I suppose it was the first shot because I looked up and saw the pigeons flushed from their roost on top of the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. I was either stopped or stopping at the time. I looked around in an effort to determine what had happened."(No More Silence p.162-168, published 1998) “When I made the turn onto Houston on the left side, we had caught up with the cars in front of us, and I had stopped right by the side of the entrance to the old jail, which is about midway between Main and Houston Streets on Houston. I heard one very clear shot, threw my head out and it appeared that about 5,000 pigeons flew out from behind that building straight ahead….But I could see the limousine off to my left on Elm, and saw Mrs. Kennedy crawling on the back of the car.”

Motorcade stopped. Nothing about the limo stopping.

Congressman Henry Gonzalez, was, apparently, in one of the next cars. (11-23-63 UPI article found in the San Antonio Light) "The terrain was such that it must have been carefully selected by the assassin. The motorcade moved down an incline and went under an overpass. It had slowed to a halt at this point. Part of the entourage was excluded from view of the other cars. The terrain was well selected for the act."(3-16-64 UPI article found in the Brownsville Texas Herald) "Gonzalez said he was in the sixth car in the motorcade and was sitting on the left hand side of the car in the rear. The congressman said when the first shot was fired the car stopped just in the intersection of Houston and Elm streets." (8-25-75 UPI article found in the Fort Pierce Florida News Tribune) "Gonzalez said he was in the motorcade in Dallas when President Kennedy was slain. "I have never mentioned this to anyone before. But when the first shot sounded, the cars were already at a complete halt or just crawling. Odd that we should have come to a virtual stop even before the first shot, at the exact spot."

Motorcade slowed to a halt. Virtual stop. Gonzalez was actually much further back in the motorcade then he remembered and could not see the limo at the time of the shots.

J.W. Courson rode a motorcycle in the motorcade by the press bus. (No More Silence, p.127-131, published 1998) “All was going well until we had just made a right turn from Main onto Houston Street due to the limousine having to make the sharp left turn up ahead which slowed the motorcade. We had to stop, thus I was sitting on my motorcycle in the left lane on Houston looking more or less at the Book Depository. That’s when I heard the shots! I couldn’t tell exactly from where the shots came because of the echo pattern, but there were three very distinct shots. The first two were fairly close together then there was more space between the second and third. I could tell that they came from one location, but really I was concentrating more on the President and seeing if they needed help up ahead. I looked to my left…The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner on Elm. Then the Secret Service agent helped push her back in the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed.“

Courson was much further back in the motorcade than he lets on and it's doubtful he saw what he claims to have seen. Nevertheless, he did say the limo stopped.

Stavis Ellis was one of the motorcycle officers out in front of the lead car. (The Kennedy Assassination Tapes, 1979) Officer A “when the first shot was fired, I was looking directly at the President, and I saw the concrete burst into a cloud of dust when the bullet hit the curb. I noticed, too, that with the shot, some people started running in every direction, while several people hit the ground…Then while looking back at the President, I heard the second shot. The President became rigid and grabbed his neck. It also seemed like the limousine stopped or almost stopped, and agents from the following car started running toward the President’s limousine."

Unsure if it stopped.

Once again this is a mixed bag. Some said it stopped. Some said it did not. There's certainly nothing here to make one rationally conclude the limo stopped, and that all the films are fake.

Pat, a lot of my motivation in doubting the extant film came from two sources: those who said the limo stopped and the spray out of the back of the head issue. I believe in David Lifton's utter integrity and honesty as a person and as a researcher. If the Newmans insisted to David that the limo stopped, and they didn't care what the film showed, then, at least in 1971 when the interview was conducted, that is what they said. One can go to the National ARchives and listen to this interview. Now if at some other point one or both give a different viewpoint, that is the hermeneutical problem. Add to that their contemporaneous observations, if I remember what you posted earlier, are not emphatic about a limo stop. How all this fits together is not immediately clear to me. Did Bill Newman undergo the kind of change in thinking several Dallas doctors underwent when the official case contradicted their first day statements? That wouldn't surprise me. I keep asking myself, why would the Newman's tell Lifton in no uncertain terms that the limo stopped, if it only "almost stopped?" Wondering, Daniel

[Daniel Gallup]

name='Daniel Gallup' date='08 June 2011 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1307501448' post='227999']

But Jim, I also base my case not only on those who said it stopped, and that includes several of the motorcycle officers around the limo, but also on the lack of spray exiting the back of Kennedy's head at Z 313, which should have been one of the most prominent features of that frame.

Please tell us why the spray should be seen coming out of the back of JFK's head??? I am certain that you have participated in threads where I posted how back spatter moves slower than the debris traveling in the direction of the bullet.

Zapruder's camera was only running at 18fps and unless his shutter opened almost at the exact moment that the bullet broke through the skull ... the spray moving near the speed of the projectile could not possibly be seen with Zapruder's camera.

A bullet may travel beyond the capacity of a camera to capure it in flight, but bones, blood and brains are a different story, and not seeing them exiting the back of Kennedy's head really bothers me-- bigtime. Liquid or brains cannot do what you say they do, or so it seems to me. I have not shot anyone in the head lately, but what you insist upon seems a physical impossibility. If Toni Foster could see it ("the spray went behind him") why couldn't Z's camera? -- Doubtful Daniel

[Bill Miller]

Is it your position that when the forward spatter on the right of the melon disappears, there will still be plenty of backspatter apparent on the left?

Hello Pat,

What I said was that a camera running at only 18fps cannot possibly capture the spatter that came off the back of JFK's head because it was moving too fast for Zapruder's camera to record it. A high speed camera can show this when slowed down so we can follow it. This goes to a comment I read that touched on the debris not being seen coming off the back of the head in Zapruder's film.

In Frame Z313, the first frame showing the bullet has entered the skull, the bone plate is already in the air and at the end of the tether of scalp that kept it from totally dislodging from JFK's head. The back spatter that we see drift up and over JFK's head was moving slow enough that we can see its presence in Z313. The faster moving forward spatter holds a tighter pattern and travels at a higher rate of speed that back spatter and was not seen in Z313. I also believe that the wind speed also played a role of slowing the back spatter, which helped us see on Zapruder's film.

Sherry, who teaches blood spatter, explained this concept to me.

[Andric Perez]

I wouldn't take the usual suspects too seriously, Martin. It's not exactly a secret what they're about: Scratch an anti-alterationist, and you tend to find a Warren Commission lawyer at work:

What an exaggeration. Being an alterationist is not a requirement to be a hard-core CT. From what I've read in Speer's work, he believes a silencer was used in the assassination. Would you care mentioning any WC lawyer who came close to raising that possibility? Which WC lawyer believed in a shot after frame 312? Which WC lawyer believed the bag in the archives is not the original? Which WC lawyer believes Howard Hughes financed the assassination? Which WC lawyer believed in a shot from the DalTex building and a shot (or diversionary firecracker) from behind the arcade area? Those are all positions held by Pat Speer.

[Pat Speer]

I wouldn't take the usual suspects too seriously, Martin. It's not exactly a secret what they're about: Scratch an anti-alterationist, and you tend to find a Warren Commission lawyer at work:

What an exaggeration. Being an alterationist is not a requirement to be a hard-core CT. From what I've read in Speer's work, he believes a silencer was used in the assassination. Would you care mentioning any WC lawyer who came close to raising that possibility? Which WC lawyer believed in a shot after frame 312? Which WC lawyer believed the bag in the archives is not the original? Which WC lawyer believes Howard Hughes financed the assassination? Which WC lawyer believed in a shot from the DalTex building and a shot (or diversionary firecracker) from behind the arcade area? Those are all positions held by Pat Speer.

I must admit, I didn't even think Paul was talking about me. I thought his WC lawyer reference was a reference to Lifton and his friendship with Liebeler. But, alas, you are correct, Lifton is an alterationist, one of the first.

P.S. It is not my position that Hughes financed the operation, just a pet suspicion, something I would have liked seen investigated, or have investigated myself given the time and money. The behavior of Robert Maheu, Hughes' public face, and Maheu's close relationship with the CIA, Rosselli and Giancana, is undoubtedly intriguing.

[Pat Speer]

Is it your position that when the forward spatter on the right of the melon disappears, there will still be plenty of backspatter apparent on the left?

Hello Pat,

What I said was that a camera running at only 18fps cannot possibly capture the spatter that came off the back of JFK's head because it was moving too fast for Zapruder's camera to record it. A high speed camera can show this when slowed down so we can follow it. This goes to a comment I read that touched on the debris not being seen coming off the back of the head in Zapruder's film.

In Frame Z313, the first frame showing the bullet has entered the skull, the bone plate is already in the air and at the end of the tether of scalp that kept it from totally dislodging from JFK's head. The back spatter that we see drift up and over JFK's head was moving slow enough that we can see its presence in Z313. The faster moving forward spatter holds a tighter pattern and travels at a higher rate of speed that back spatter and was not seen in Z313. I also believe that the wind speed also played a role of slowing the back spatter, which helped us see on Zapruder's film.

Sherry, who teaches blood spatter, explained this concept to me.

I remembered and have embraced Sherry's prime argument--that backspatter is always apparent and that if only one blood spurt is observed it is the backspatter, but don't recall her arguing that forward spatter would not be shown on the film. To my recollection she proposed that the back of Kennedy's head did not in fact explode. If you have a quote with her claiming forward spatter would be invisible to Zapruder's camera within 1/36 of a second--the approximate time from the bullet's impact to Z-313 (if I'm not mistaken)--I would appreciate your pointing it out to me.

Thanks, Pat

Edited June 8, 2011 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

Pat, a lot of my motivation in doubting the extant film came from two sources: those who said the limo stopped and the spray out of the back of the head issue. I believe in David Lifton's utter integrity and honesty as a person and as a researcher. If the Newmans insisted to David that the limo stopped, and they didn't care what the film showed, then, at least in 1971 when the interview was conducted, that is what they said. One can go to the National ARchives and listen to this interview. Now if at some other point one or both give a different viewpoint, that is the hermeneutical problem. Add to that their contemporaneous observations, if I remember what you posted earlier, are not emphatic about a limo stop. How all this fits together is not immediately clear to me. Did Bill Newman undergo the kind of change in thinking several Dallas doctors underwent when the official case contradicted their first day statements? That wouldn't surprise me. I keep asking myself, why would the Newman's tell Lifton in no uncertain terms that the limo stopped, if it only "almost stopped?" Wondering, Daniel

Daniel, your desire to take the Newmans--who have never claimed the Z-film is fake--as the final arbiter is most interesting, considering you believe the Z-film fake because it doesn't show a blow-out on the back of Kennedy's head, and the Newmans were consistent from day one that they saw one explosion on Kennedy's skull--by his temple.

Yep, one of the prime reasons I believe there was NO blow-out on the back of the head is that the Newmans--along with every other credible witness to the shooting--failed to notice it. In their case they were about 20 feet away from Kennedy staring at the back of his head. And yet they saw no blow out.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Pat Speer

[Jim Phelps]

A friend of mine, down near Dallas and an avid JFK researcher type, passed me this recently.

I think, if folks are going to make any headway on JFK, they are going to have to conclude that the Limo didn't stop, only slowed so SS could transfer. And lots of people were shocked and some folks persist in cherry picking little shock comments out of the majority of folks seeing that the Limo did not stop. Plus, all the films show no stop.

It should never even become a logical question to even consider with the abundance of information that says what is seen in Zapruder and the others is what happened.

Here is what my friend commented:

======

I questioned two live witnesses about the Limo Stopping? It amazed me their answers were identical.

James Tague and Beverly Oliver both immediately replied NO, then said well it did slow down.

Then both added, The whole world came to a stop for me then.

I have always maintained the witnesses who says the limo completely stopped were just in shock at the time.

Of course the Limo slowed, how else would SS catch it, He was almost thrown off the way it was when the limo accelerated.

I am sure you already knew this but just wanted you to know what on the scene witnesses said.

==============

There is a time to stop beating a dead horse, especially as it has turned to dust.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Bill Miller]

[ name=Pat Speer' date='08 June 2011 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1307550603' post='228064]

Daniel, your desire to take the Newmans--who have never claimed the Z-film is fake--as the final arbiter is most interesting, considering you believe the Z-film fake because it doesn't show a blow-out on the back of Kennedy's head, and the Newmans were consistent from day one that they saw one explosion on Kennedy's skull--by his temple.

Pat .. while you used the word 'interesting' ... I use the word 'typical'. Alteration has become a belief system to many and whether or not Daniel means to - on this point he comes across as hanging on to a bad observation so to not have to give his position up on that point.

Yep, one of the prime reasons I believe there was NO blow-out on the back of the head is that the Newmans--along with every other credible witness to the shooting--failed to notice it. In their case they were about 20 feet away from Kennedy staring at the back of his head. And yet they saw no blow out.

As I recall, the blow-out description is much like the limo slowed to a near stop or almost stopped momentarily ... its just a description left to interpretation. The hole in the back of the head was described by people who saw it up close as 'the bones were sprung open'. In other words the term 'avulsion' could also be described as a 'blow-out' in my view and why I personally have no problem with it being said that way.

So let us go back to the 'bones on the back of the head being sprung opened or avulsed. JFK had thick hair on his head and when the bones are sprung open causing an opening ... the hair helps conceal this opening when helped by a film that is suffering from constant blurring from either motion and panning blur. This set of circumstances was seen in a greater degree when some thought Wiegman's film showed no one on the pedestal. I have posted images showing this where motion blur was added to an image to show how details then get lost that were there before adding motion blur.

What motion blur couldn't hide is the oblong shape of the back of the President's head when that area was seen in profile. The oblong shape to the back of the President's head was the result of the bones being sprung open. When I asked Sherry and some medical personnel that I knew and trusted ... the option of swelling for instance was said to be impossible.

BTW, I have spoken directly with Sherry on the spray that went to the rear of the head and this is where I learned how it would be moving much faster than the back spatter. I had posted that information on Lancer in threads whereas Sherry was also posting, thus this would be my source of reference to anyone who would like to search for it.

[Bill Miller]

Of course the Limo slowed, how else would Greer catch it, He was almost thrown off the way it was when the limo accelerated.

==============

Jim - I think you meant Hill catching the limo and not Greer.

One other point ... had the limo stopped with the follow-up car so close, then there may have been a collision which no one reported. The cycles slowed down which allowed them to overtake the back of the limo .... people have gotten use to seeing what computers can do when altering pictures while not considering the lengthy and tedious dark room methods that would have needed to be done to do a single frame ... let alone an entire sequence of frames. If some alteration supporters would keep this mind, then they'd see that their previous thoughts on this were incorrect when weighed against this information. Other alterationist won't care because they have their pride and have too much invested in the matter ... like countless trash talking on forums and the publishing of books on the subject.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

A bullet may travel beyond the capacity of a camera to capure it in flight, but bones, blood and brains are a different story, and not seeing them exiting the back of Kennedy's head really bothers me-- bigtime.

The bone frags seen 7 to 9 feet in the air above the limo were the slower moving pieces and had the camera's shutter of operated a fraction of a frame later - they may not have been seen at all. Keep in mind that frame Z313 is only a picture of a moment in time.

As far as how fast the speed of brain matter and other debris travels along the bullets path ... you might have to consult an expert like did. That debris traveled fast enough that when Hargis was hit with it - he thought he had been shot.

[Jim Phelps]

Yes, I noticed my pal made a little goof and I edited to just SS. You caught it before I could fix it.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Jim Phelps