"Usama Bin Lain died in 2002"

[Duane Daman]

Got a citation for that Lt. Col. Daman?

That's Col. Daman, Private Colby!

Chinook computer was 'positively dangerous' say newly-disclosed MoD documents

Tony Collins

Monday 04 January 2010 07:56

A computer flaw in the type of Chinook helicopter that crashed on the Mull of Kintyre, killing all 29 on board, was known to be "positively dangerous", according to military documents that have not been published until today.

The RAF blamed the two pilots, Flight Lieutenants Rick Cook and Jonathan Tapper, for the crash of Chinook ZD576 on 2 June 1994, which killed 25 senior police and intelligence officers.

But an RAF Board of Inquiry was unable to establish why the crash happened. It did not rule out problems with the Chinook Mk2's innovative, software-controlled "Fadec" fuel control system as a contributory factor in the crash.

Now internal Ministry of Defence documents, which have been seen by the BBC and Computer Weekly, show that the RAF hierarchy approved the Chinook Mk2 as airworthy while knowing - and without remedying - a dangerous flaw in the helicopter's "Fadec" fuel control system.

Computer Weekly has already reported on problems with the Fadec system in a 140-page report which we published in 1999. But the internal MoD documents that are now disclosed contain the most serious internal criticism yet of the Fadec.

The criticism is contained in a memo written in September 1993 - nine months before the crash on the Mull of Kintyre - by the Superintendent of Engineering Systems at an MoD establishment at Boscombe Down, Salisbury.

IT experts at Boscombe Down were tasked with checking the Chinook's Mk2's Fadec software as part of the tests to see whether the helicopter was airworthy. After an assessment of the Fadec software the Superintendent of Engineering Systems said that the density of deficiencies was so high that the software was unintelligible.

He said of the anomalies in both the software code and documentation: "One of these, the reliance on an undocumented and unproved feature of the processor, is considered positively dangerous".

He added that the software "falls significantly short of the standard required and expected for a safety-critical system No assurance can be given concerning the fidelity of the software and hence the pilot's control of the engine (s) through Fadec cannot be assured".

The Superintendent's memo also said that a hazard analysis by Boeing, the Chinook's manufacturer, had categorised the Fadec software as "safety-critical" because "any malfunctions or design errors could have catastrophic effects".

More here.

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2010/01/04/239793/Chinook-computer-was-39positively-dangerous39-say-newly-disclosed-MoD.htm

The Army Chinook helicopter, like the one shot down Aug. 6 in Afghanistan killing all 38 onboard, is the U.S. chopper most susceptible to Taliban ground fire, according to statistics compiled by a former aviator.

Experts say the crash rate shows two principal facts: The lumbering CH-47 Chinook is not designed to fly into the teeth of a firefight to deliver troops and supplies, and the Taliban is somewhat skilled in using crude weapons to hit a big target like the 50,000-pound chopper.

People associated with special operations and Army aviation are making those points as the U.S. command in Kabul begins an investigation into the mission that killed 30 Americans, 17 of them elite Navy SEALs, when a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) hit the CH-47 in Warnak province.

"It's a big aircraft," said retired Army Brig. Gen. Sam Cockerham, who flew helicopters in Vietnam. "It's a cargo aircraft. It's not an attack aircraft. It's not a scout aircraft. It's a cargo aircraft, so that means when it goes into a risky area, it's got to have some protection with it. It's got to have scouts on the ground and also something in the air flying along with it."

The U.S. command in Kabul has yet to release full mission details. Marine Gen. John Allen, the top NATO commander in Afghanistan, declined at a recent press conference to discuss the air assets at his disposal. He has ordered an investigation that will officially determine the crash's cause, as well at look at the mission itself.

An Army pilot told The Washington Times: "Escorts are always preferred for lift aircraft. Sometimes they go in pairs, sometimes with other utility aircraft, sometimes with attack or recon aircraft. There are hundreds of specific missions a day, and only so many aircraft to cover them. When it is possible, yes, they get an escort."

Military officials first said the hastily dispatched Chinook was sent to rescue pinned down Army Rangers in a firefight with a dozen or so Taliban militants. But Gen. Allen later provided a different reason, saying the Rangers requested more forces to kill or capture fleeing Taliban.

"One thing that has been lost in all the stories I have read is that CH-47s were designed only for noncombat support missions," said a special operations soldier who has served in Afghanistan. "Even the MH-47s rely on stealth to survive."

The MH model is a specialized CH-47 flown by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, based at Fort Campbell, Ky. For the doomed SEAL mission, commanders chose the conventional CH-47 with a regular crew, not a special operations pilots and crew.

The special operations source said the twin-engine Chinook's ability to fly at relatively high altitudes "has caused planners to use them in ways for which they were not designed, landing in or near hot landing zones. It is an amazing aircraft but has very poor survivability when under fire — This disaster was of our own making and completely avoidable. It was simply uncalled for unless Rangers were being overrun and the ground situation required this much operational risk."

Statistics compiled by the website ArmyAirCrews.com underscore that point.

The site, run by Kevin Allen, a former crew chief on Army helicopters, reports that there have been 11 fatal Chinook crashes in Afghanistan since 2001. Of the seven brought down by enemy ground fire, six were by the relatively crude RPG.

In contrast, the Army's other workhorse, troop-carrying chopper — the 20,000-pound UH-60 Black Hawk — has suffered only four fatal crashes in Afghanistan. None involved RPGs.

"The Black Hawk has had some advances as far as crash worthiness, as compared to the Chinook," Mr. Allen said. "Obviously, the Chinook is a lot older aircraft than the Black Hawk. I just think it's the advances in safety that Black Hawk has because it is more modern than the Chinook is a main factor in that."

Of course, the Black Hawk is not immune to the RPG. In one of the most famous post-Cold War battles, known as "Black Hawk Down," two special operations versions were felled by Somali fighters in Mogadishu in 1993.

"No one in their right mind sends a Chinook, or any other helicopter, into a place where they know they're going to get shot at," the Army pilot said. "Everywhere is a potential danger area. You could get shot at any time. An AK-47 and a RPG are basically in the same category. On the fly, pull up and take a shot, duck out of sight, hide the weapon, blend in. It's a difficult formula to defend against. There isn't a helicopter out there that can withstand ground fire. There are well-placed armor panels, but if we fortified them to withstand ground fire, they would never get off the ground."

Boeing is still producing new Chinooks nearly 50 years after it first entered the Army inventory.

"The Chinook is a true multirole, vertical-lift platform," Boeing says. "The primary Chinook mission is transport of artillery, troops, ammunition, fuel and supplies within military theaters of operation."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/25/chinook-helicopter-most-susceptible-ground-fire/print/

[Matthew Lewis]

But Fadec faults were corrected after the crash on the Mull.

from your own link

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2010/01/04/239793/Chinook-computer-was-39positively-dangerous39-say-newly-disclosed-MoD.htm

[Duane Daman]

No matter what might have been corrected, the Chinook continues to be one of the most dangerous means of transportation.

"The Army Chinook helicopter, like the one shot down Aug. 6 in Afghanistan killing all 38 onboard, is the U.S. chopper most susceptible to Taliban ground fire, according to statistics compiled by a former aviator.

Experts say the crash rate shows two principal facts: The lumbering CH-47 Chinook is not designed to fly into the teeth of a firefight to deliver troops and supplies, and the Taliban is somewhat skilled in using crude weapons to hit a big target like the 50,000-pound chopper."

"No one in their right mind sends a Chinook, or any other helicopter, into a place where they know they're going to get shot at," the Army pilot said.

Getting back to what matters, before the distractions of Private Colby...

Navy Seal Team 6 – The Cover-up Continues

"The chances of this story being true is almost nil. The chances of this being a staged cover-up is over 80%. We believe these people were murdered to silence them. This is why.

Some Possibly Killed in Abbottabad Helicopter Crash Months Before

By Gordon Duff, Senior Editor – Veteran Times

We have solid information on two areas:

1.Osama bin Laden died in 2001 as an active CIA employee and his body was recovered in Afghanistan and taken to “the sand box.” We were told it was frozen. We have so much verification from this, CIA, ISI, US military and top officials. I have a direct confirmation from Bin Laden’s CIA handler who I grilled mercilessly on this.

2.The Abbottabad operation involved numerous American deaths, witnessed, bodies all over, a helicopter crash. (suppressed translated TV interview below) These bodies were recovered by land vehicle from Islamabad and there was NO “successful” bin Laden operation of any kind. There was and has been a CIA safe house in Abbotabad where terror suspects were stored for years.

This gave the US several areas of severe vulnerability. Generally, Navy Seals are the best people in the world at keeping their mouths shut, these are real team players, as the term “Seal Team” belies.

We at VT were informed that the bin Laden operation was staged at this time, a theatrical farce, to cover the exit of Secretary Gates, the move by former CIA Director Leon Panetta into the DOD as Secretary of Defense and to stem any heroic claims by new CIA Director Petraeus of killing the long dead Osama bin Laden, the long frozen CIA operative."

http://askmarion.wordpress.com/2011/08/10/navy-seal-team-6-the-cover-up-continues/

[William Kelly]

No matter what might have been corrected, the Chinook continues to be one of the most dangerous means of transportation.

"The Army Chinook helicopter, like the one shot down Aug. 6 in Afghanistan killing all 38 onboard, is the U.S. chopper most susceptible to Taliban ground fire, according to statistics compiled by a former aviator.

Experts say the crash rate shows two principal facts: The lumbering CH-47 Chinook is not designed to fly into the teeth of a firefight to deliver troops and supplies, and the Taliban is somewhat skilled in using crude weapons to hit a big target like the 50,000-pound chopper."

"No one in their right mind sends a Chinook, or any other helicopter, into a place where they know they're going to get shot at," the Army pilot said.

Getting back to what matters, before the distractions of Private Colby...

Navy Seal Team 6 – The Cover-up Continues

"The chances of this story being true is almost nil. The chances of this being a staged cover-up is over 80%. We believe these people were murdered to silence them. This is why.

Some Possibly Killed in Abbottabad Helicopter Crash Months Before

By Gordon Duff, Senior Editor – Veteran Times

We have solid information on two areas:

1.Osama bin Laden died in 2001 as an active CIA employee and his body was recovered in Afghanistan and taken to "the sand box." We were told it was frozen. We have so much verification from this, CIA, ISI, US military and top officials. I have a direct confirmation from Bin Laden's CIA handler who I grilled mercilessly on this.

2.The Abbottabad operation involved numerous American deaths, witnessed, bodies all over, a helicopter crash. (suppressed translated TV interview below) These bodies were recovered by land vehicle from Islamabad and there was NO "successful" bin Laden operation of any kind. There was and has been a CIA safe house in Abbotabad where terror suspects were stored for years.

This gave the US several areas of severe vulnerability. Generally, Navy Seals are the best people in the world at keeping their mouths shut, these are real team players, as the term "Seal Team" belies.

We at VT were informed that the bin Laden operation was staged at this time, a theatrical farce, to cover the exit of Secretary Gates, the move by former CIA Director Leon Panetta into the DOD as Secretary of Defense and to stem any heroic claims by new CIA Director Petraeus of killing the long dead Osama bin Laden, the long frozen CIA operative."

http://askmarion.wor...r-up-continues/

Duane,

Gordon Duff and Veterans Times are not reliable sources for anything. They have an agenda and it ain't the truth.

If you believe UBL killed in 2002 then how do you account for the video and audio recordings of him ranting and raving over the years?

[Duane Daman]

Gordon Duff and Veterans Times are not reliable sources for anything. They have an agenda and it ain't the truth.

That sounds like your opinion, and you're entitled to it .. but where is the proof that the Veteran Times has "an agenda and it ain't the truth"? .. Do they perhaps disagree with your opinion about 911 also?

If you believe UBL killed in 2002 then how do you account for the video and audio recordings of him ranting and raving over the years?

Videos can be paraded out by the CIA long after someone is dead, with the pretense that they were recently made.. There's also a strong possibility that boogeyman bin Laden had about as many decoys and body doubles as Michael Jackson.

[Douglas Caddy]

Was Osama Bin Laden Really Buried At Sea? WikiLeaks Emails Suggest Al Qaeda Chief's Body Was Flown To US Military Mortuary

Huffington Post UK Sara C Nelson

First Posted: 6/03/2012 09:40 Updated: 6/03/2012 10:18

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/06/was-osama-bin-laden-really-buried-at-sea-wikileaks-emails-suggest-al-qaeda-chiefs-body-was-flown-to-us-military-mortuary_n_1323138.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D140859

Osama Bin Laden was apparently buried in the waters of the north Arabian sea, but internal emails from intelligence service Stratfor, obtained by hacker group Anonymous and posted by WikiLeaks suggest otherwise.

According to official accounts, he was wrapped in a sheet and “eased” off the decks of the U.S.S Carl Vinson just hours after he was killed on May 2 in a United States-led operation, in accordance with Muslim tradition.

But a leaked email from Stratfor vice president for intelligence Fred Burton, sent on 2 May 2011, at 5.26am states: “Reportedly, we took the body with us. Thank goodness.”

A subsequent email on the same day at 5.51am states: “Body bound for Dover, DE on CIA plane. Than (sic) onward to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Bethesda.”

US forces said Bin Laden was killed in a siege at his compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, on 2 May 2011, just after 1am local time.

At 6.26am Burton wrote: “If body dumped at sea, which I doubt, the touch is very Adolph Eichman like. The Tribe did the same thing with the Nazi's ashes. We would want to photograph, DNA, fingerprint, etc.

“His body is a crime scene and I don't see the FBI nor DOJ letting that happen.”

The reference to Eichmann regards the cremation of the Nazi’s body following his capture, trial and execution, in order to prevent any memorial or shrine being built.

Stratfor CEO George Friedman appears to agree, noting: “Eichmann was seen alive for many months on trial before being sentenced to death and executed. No comparison with suddenly burying him at sea without any chance to view him which I doubt happened.”

By 1.36pm Burton writes again: “Body is Dover bound, should be here by now.”

The conversation takes a puzzling turn at 3.11pm, with Burton stating: “Down and dirty done, He already sleeps with the fish…”

A note adds: “It seems to me that by dropping the corpse in the ocean, the body will come back to haunt us… gotta be violating some sort of obscure heathen religious rule that will inflame islam?

"The US Govt needs to make body pics available like the MX’s do, with OBL’s pants pulled down, to shout down the lunatics like Alex Jones and Glenn Beck.”

The exchange casts a mystery over just what happened to the body of the Al Qaeda leader.

The thread of emails - under the heading The Global Intelligence Files - was published by WikiLeaks on 27 February 2012 and contains correspondence dated between July 2004 and late December 2011.

The site states: "They reveal the inner workings of a company that fronts as an intelligence publisher, but provides confidential intelligence services to large corporations, such as Bhopal's Dow Chemical Co., Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and government agencies, including the US Department of Homeland Security, the US Marines and the US Defence Intelligence Agency.

"The emails show Stratfor's web of informers, pay-off structure, payment laundering techniques and psychological methods."

The New American reports: “The release of the Stratfor emails will likely revive the debate over just what happened to bin Laden’s body and consequently, whether or not US forces actually killed the terrorist mastermind in the first place.

“Secrecy prior to the raid is understandable; a refusal to produce the key piece of evidence that the raid was successful, on the other hand, is quite curious indeed."

According to White House Press Secretary Jay Carney, a member of the military “read prepared religious remarks” that were translated into Arabic at the burial ceremony.

The lair where Bin Laden lived in secrecy before the alleged final stand off with US Commandoes was razed to the ground last month.

Bin Laden moved into the three-storey house in 2005 and lived there until it was stormed by Navy Seals in May 2011.

The house was located just half a mile from one of Pakistan’s top army training academies, which caused embarrassment for the country’s intelligence services, AP reported.

US officials say there was no evidence senior Pakistan officials were aware of Bin Laden’s location.

Residents living nearby told the Independent they had thought the building would be turned into a mosque, school or clinic.

Shah Mohammad said: “I think they should build a mosque. If you build a school there, people will just associate it with Bin Laden.”

A source had told the paper demolition was on the cards ahead of the event, adding: “There is an issue, in our culture, of such places becoming shrines.”