Why is this not visible on any photo or film?

[Wim Dankbaar]

Below is a fragment of the Warren Commission testimony of S.M. Holland, who saw the assassination from the triple overpass.

Lee Bowers was also saying that a motorcycle cop shot all the way up to the incline of the grassy knoll, towards the spot under the large tree where Holland saw the puff of

smoke.

Why is this not visible on any photo or film?

Wim

Mr. HOLLAND - Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys' cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble.

Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in his hand.

Mr. STERN - Toward---

Mr. HOLLAND - The location that---

Mr. STERN - Where you saw the puff of smoke?

Mr. HOLLAND - Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and he run up the rest of the way on foot.

Mr. STERN - Go ahead. This is at the time of the---

Mr. HOLLAND - At the time of the---

Mr. STERN - That the shots were fired?

Mr. HOLLAND - The shots was fired.

Mr. STERN - Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade?

Mr. HOLLAND - In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he---tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there the rest of the way with his---

Edited September 29, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar

[Jack White]

Below is a fragment of the Warren Commission testimony of S.M. Holland, who saw the assassination from the triple overpass.

Lee Bowers was also saying that a motorcycle cop shot all the way up to the incline of the grassy knoll, towards the spot under the large tree where Holland saw the puff of

smoke.

Why is this not visible on any photo or film?

Wim

Mr. HOLLAND - Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys' cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble.

Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in his hand.

Mr. STERN - Toward---

Mr. HOLLAND - The location that---

Mr. STERN - Where you saw the puff of smoke?

Mr. HOLLAND - Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and he run up the rest of the way on foot.

Mr. STERN - Go ahead. This is at the time of the---

Mr. HOLLAND - At the time of the---

Mr. STERN - That the shots were fired?

Mr. HOLLAND - The shots was fired.

Mr. STERN - Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade?

Mr. HOLLAND - In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he---tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there the rest of the way with his---

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wim...I have always wondered the same thing. Also, I recall another witness saying that

while the motorcade was stopped, one motorcyclist made a complete circle in the street

at about the location of the storm drain. This is shown in NO photos.

Jack

[Ron Ecker]

An officer (presumably Smith) is shown running up to the fence on page 51 of Killing of a President.

His left arm is away from his body and his right arm is close, probably because he's holding his drawn pistol.

[Wim Dankbaar]

Clyde Haygood was the officer who lays his bike down and first runs up the knoll. I called him a few months ago. He says he did not have his gun drawn.

But I was more interested in seeing the motorcycle officer that actually shot up the knoll with his bike (according to Bowers and Holland). BTW, I wonder how Bowers could have seen that from the railroad tower.

Wim

[Steve Thomas]

Wim,

Clyde Haygood was the officer who lays his bike down and first runs up the knoll. I called him a few months ago. He says he did not have his gun drawn.

Bobbie Hargis was the motorcycle officer who can be seen peering over the concrete wall at the top of the incline.

Clyde Haygood told the WC that he tried to jump the north curb on Elm St. but it was too tall, so he left his bike in the street and ran into the railroad yards.

But I was more interested in seeing the motorcycle officer that actually shot up the knoll with his bike (according to Bowers and Holland). BTW, I wonder how Bowers could have seen that from the railroad tower.

I wonder if Bowers saw Haygood trying to get over the curb and then saw the upper part of Haygood's body moving up the slope and assumed he was still on his bike.

I thought this part of Haygood's testimony was interesting.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any people over there or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. In the railroad yard, I talked to one of the people I presumed to be a railroad detective that was in the yard.

Mr. BELIN. Had he been in the yard before or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No. He was just coming into the area after I was.

Mr. BELIN. He was coming into the area after the shooting?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

I never paid too much attention to this part of Holland's testimony, but it got me thinking:

Mr. HOLLAND - Well, about 11:00 o'clock, a couple of policemen and a plainclothesman, came up on top of the triple underpass. and we had some men working up there, and I knew that they was going to have a parade, and I left my office and walked up to the underpass to talk to the policemen. And they asked me during the parade if I would come back up there and identify people that was supposed to be on that overpass. That is, the railroad people.

Mr. STERN - Where are your offices, Mr. Holland?

Mr. HOLLAND - At the Union Terminal Station.

Mr. STERN - Is that within walking distance of the triple overpass?

Mr. HOLLAND - Yes, it is. About--less than a quarter of a mile a very short distance.

Mr. STERN - And these policemen that you spoke to, there were 3 altogether?

Mr. HOLLAND - Two---there were 2 city policemen and 1 man in plainclothes. I didn't talk to him. I talked to the city policemen.

Mr. STERN - You don't know what his affiliation was?

Mr. HOLLAND - I know he was a plainclothes detective, or FBI agent or something like that, but I don't know, and I told him I would be back and after lunch I would go up there.

Now we know that J.W. Foster and J.C. White were assigned to the overpass, but are these the SAME policemen that Holland talked to at 11:00 AM?

Their WC testimony picks up at the arrival of the motorcade and there are no after-action reports by them in the DPD Archives index.

So far, I haven't found any record of the plainclothed officer that Holland talked to, and Foster told the WC that he had received his assignment from Sergeant Harkness.

David Harkness was on a three wheeled motorcycle and was in uniform.

Interesting.

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

Bobbie Hargis was the motorcycle officer who can be seen peering over the concrete wall at the top of the incline.

Gary Mack tells me that I am wrong. It was Haygood who ran up the slope and can be seen peering back over the bridge looking down the railroad tracks.

Steve Thomas

[Pat Speer]

Bobbie Hargis was the motorcycle officer who can be seen peering over the concrete wall at the top of the incline.

Gary Mack tells me that I am wrong. It was Haygood who ran up the slope and can be seen peering back over the bridge looking down the railroad tracks.

Steve Thomas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hargis was riding behind Kennedy. After the fatal shot, he stopped his bike, ran across the street over to the stockade fence, circled back over by the Newmans, got back on his bike and raced down to the other side of the railroad bridge. As he left the scene, Clyde Haygood drove up, tried to hop the curb, dropped his bike, and led a crowd down to the railroad bridge, where he hopped a short wall and was immortalized on film.

I believe in Malcolm Couch's film there is another officer, Weitszman???, on the south side of Elm, waiting to cross, with his gun drawn.

[Alan Healy]

Hi,

it is my understanding that Hargis only went to the wall(at the BDM position) looked over it, saw nothing & then drew back.

I'm pretty sure he did not(or could not even) look over the fence, but jumping back on his bike to catch someone escaping to the west was his main thought & he was quite swift in doing so, especially taking into account the utter confusion that surrounded him on Elm.

Alan.

[Alan Healy]

I'm pretty sure he did not(or could not even) look over the fence,

Which makes one think that he was looking for someone/thing behind the wall & not the fence, does it not?

Anyhoo, the point Wim made about what Bowers could see from his tower is also interesting;

Bothun3 seems to say "not much"

Could Bowers be recalling what he heard from other witnesses & putting it together with his own important account(all innocently of course)?

Wouldn't be the first time, I'm sure.

Or maybe he saw an officer at the wall & just put two & two together.

Hargis actually at the wall, I have never seen. Weigman, Bell, Nix & Co all miss him.

[Alan Healy]

This photo also suggest he'd have to be looking real hard too, maybe he was!

I would be.

[Bill Miller]

This photo also suggest he'd have to be looking real hard too, maybe he was!

I would be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mike Brown has said that Bowers brother has said in the past that Lee saw more than he told, but kept much of it to himself out of fear. That would not surprise me because I never thought that some of what Bowers had said made much sense. Here is why ...

Bowers said he heard shots fired and he knew Kennedy was passing by. He had seen a flash of light or some unusual occurrence at the Hat Man location (according to Lee in his own words). So what does Bowers tell us he did next - lost track of what was happening as he went back to his duties. This goes against all human nature. You hear gun shots - see something odd take place at the fence and then tell us you went back to your duties and lost track of what happened right out in front of you ... something wasn't right IMO with Bowers statements. What duties was so important? The train yard was at a standstill during the passing of the motorcade was it not. Lee stopped a train car at some point, but what did that take - a simple throwing of a switch? It is unimaginable to me that Lee would not have kept watching the fence area to see what the two individuals who were unknown to him were doing. A shot was heard at the Hat Man location and smoke immediately drifted out in front of the fence - Bowers hints to seeing this when speaking to Mark Lane. If what Hoffman says is correct, then Bowers could not have missed the hatted man turning away from the fence with his gun in tow. It's almost as if Lee gave a little bit of information to let us know something occurred at the fence on the RR yard side, but not enough to make him the start witness, which would make him be in fear of his life. According to Brown when talking about Lee Bowers brother - Lee was paranoid and thought he might be in danger. Danger of what if Oswald was the lone assassin? I believe that Bowers was afraid because the conspirators knew he had to have seen something. And even if Lee had not seen something - any RR yard assassin(s) would not have risked finding out. It makes sense to me to hear that Lee down played what he had seen, but I think in the end that it didn't do him much good.

Edited October 3, 2004 by Bill Miller

[Alan Healy]

Mike Brown has said that Bowers brother has said

(cont).....

Mike Brown?

THE MB who says he knows who the couple on the bench were(or knows someone who knows them), dont make me laugh!

Thats like me opening a post with the words "Gerald Posner says".

The Couple/Bench story is false history, just like Arnolds'.

Blackdogman is the closest well get to knowing what really happened on the knoll & he was no "innocent bystander".

It dont matter to me that Ill never know who he was, just as long as I keep sweeping up the dung that surrounds him behind that little wall.

Anyone who swallows these kinda storys I am sympathetic too but to go as far as to lie or decieve in order too back them up(like MB with the couple & like you with Arnold) is about as strange as it gets, especially since we consider ourselves "Truthseekers".

You & Mike seem to think, you know exactly what happened behind the wall but the stories you have come to believe in ,make you both look like suckers,

thats my opinion anyway.

If anyones interested, yes I do still believe BDM was a conspirator, now more than ever, I dont believe his image has been disguised(but I know I could be wrong there), he still looks like a shooter to me & whoever says it looks like Arnold is either blind or up to no good!