Clearing up some areas

[Pat Speer]

"and now we know of a witness to a Black man running away across the knoll whose actions were so at odds with all others, it caused SA Landis to remember him and include the sighting in his report. "

Do you have any more on this from anyone/where else?

Todd,

As you probably are aware, the "black man running away across the knoll" is very likely Marvin Chism, running west, with a child in his arms. There's a well known photograph showing that, but I don't recall the name of it. (FYI: I interviewed Chism in November, 1971). Both he and his wife should have been deposed by the WC--and the picture of him running across the knoll would have been admitted as evidence at that time. (The same goes for the Newmans, Mary Moorman, Brehm, etc. The failure to call these important witnesses was inexcusable).

DSL

A minor correction. Marvin Chism is actually Marvin Faye Chism, the wife of John Chism. While John has moved on, Faye is still with us, and is one of the closest witnesses still around. I mean, who of the adults in Dealey, would be closer? Bobby Hargis, The Newmans, Clint Hill, Paul Landis, and Mary Moorman. That's about it.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Pat Speer

[Greg Parker]

Greg,

Landis' complete statement for this point in time.

"My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive after being hit like he was. I still was not certain from which direction the second shot came, but my reaction at this time was that the shot came from somewhere towards the front, right-hand side of the road.

I did not notice anyone on the overpass, and I scanned the area to the right of and below the overpass where the terrain sloped towards the road on which we were traveling. The only person I recall seeing clearly was a Negro male in light green slacks and a beige colored shirt running from my left to right, up the slope, across a grassy section, along a sidewalk, towards some steps and what appeared to be a low stone wall. He was bent over while running and I started to point towards him, but I didn't notice anything in his hands and by this time we were going under the overpass at a very high rate of speed. I was looking back and saw a motorcycle policeman stopping along the curb approximately adjacent to where I saw the Negro running."

I'm pretty sure the only person Landis could be describing is: http://i140.photobuc...n/Moorman-2.gif

according to the extant films that are available.

chris

Thanks Chris, I certainly agree it's far more likely him than Chism - though the clothing description again, is not a match, and I wonder why he would stand out more than the others in his vicinity?

And if this is the person Landis was talking about, it doesn't mean the Piper episode never happened. Not everything was caught on film - unless you're into Rorschach Tests. I'm sure you understand that, judging by your last comment.

[Robin Unger]

Greg,

Landis' complete statement for this point in time.

"My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive after being hit like he was. I still was not certain from which direction the second shot came, but my reaction at this time was that the shot came from somewhere towards the front, right-hand side of the road.

I did not notice anyone on the overpass, and I scanned the area to the right of and below the overpass where the terrain sloped towards the road on which we were traveling. The only person I recall seeing clearly was a Negro male in light green slacks and a beige colored shirt running from my left to right, up the slope, across a grassy section, along a sidewalk, towards some steps and what appeared to be a low stone wall. He was bent over while running and I started to point towards him, but I didn't notice anything in his hands and by this time we were going under the overpass at a very high rate of speed. I was looking back and saw a motorcycle policeman stopping along the curb approximately adjacent to where I saw the Negro running."

I'm pretty sure the only person Landis could be describing is: http://i140.photobuc...n/Moorman-2.gif

according to the extant films that are available.

chris

Thanks Chris, I certainly agree it's far more likely him than Chism - though the clothing description again, is not a match, and I wonder why he would stand out more than the others in his vicinity?

And if this is the person Landis was talking about, it doesn't mean the Piper episode never happened. Not everything was caught on film - unless you're into Rorschach Tests. I'm sure you understand that, judging by your last comment.

John Chism can be ruled out he was wearing a "dark suit " at the time.

Not a beige shirt and light green slacks

Edited August 25, 2011 by Robin Unger

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Greg,

"I submit again that Rowland DID see a Black gentleman on the 6th floor aged in his 50s - that this man was Eddie Piper - that Piper ran downstairs and out the loading dock in terror about the time of the assassination and headed to Special Services due to knowing them from being busted gambling. "

And you think the man seen by Landis was Piper?

Todd

... I could well imagine Piper at his age, being bent over with the physical exertion. It now seems likely he ran straight past the wrapping table and out that side loading dock.

Oh, puh-LEEZE, Greg!

Eddie Piper was 55. You're 53. Are YOU anywhere close to describing yourself that way?!? Are YOU "elderly?"

I didn't think so.

Again you twist my words. I said "at his age" What was his age? MId '50s? Yes, it was, so that was the age I was referring to. I made no attempt to describe him as "elderly". Please desist from this nonsense.

Could I run full steam down 6 flights of stairs and across a grassy slope, probably slippery from morning rain without getting breathless? I don't think I could these days, and I'd suggest the average guy in his 50s couldn't either. But there is another possibility: he wad ducking to make himself as small a target as possible... worried that the sniper might take a potshot at him. Hard to miss him in those bright colors!

Landis noticed this man by the way, because he was obviously reacting quite differently to everyone else....

I just realized I did in fact, describe Rowland's man as "elderly" in post #4 in reply to Pat. I don't recall why I used that particular term, unless trying to describe him through the eyes of a Rowland ( a teenager), or whether I just misspoke in trying to distinguish him from being "young".

Bottom line: I agree calling Piper "elderly" is not entirely accurate, and certainly did not call him, or mean to imply that in the post you've replied to.

In relation to Landis' observations, this is the description I've referred to before of the flight in fright of the witness... I apologize in advance for any sensitivities involved, but believe it best to quote without change...

"Waldo stated that the source said 'when I saw this boy he was the scaredest n I ever saw. All you could see were the whites of his eyes.' Waldo stated that according to his source, the witness stated when he fled the Texas School Book Depository, he surrendered to the Special Service because that branch of the Police Department had picked him up on crap shooting charges in the past. According to Waldo, the source stated that the witness made the statement 'man, you don't know how fast is fast unless you saw me run', referring to his exit from the TSBD."

We know no such person ran out the front door. Which leaves the side loading dock - the direction in which Piper said he ran.

Now compare to the relevant part of SA Landis' observation: "He thought that the shot had come from somewhere toward the front right-hand side of the road. When he looked in that direction, he saw the only person he can recall seeing clearly who was a Negro male in light green slacks and a beige colored shirt running from Landis left to right, up the slope, across the grass, along the sidewalk, bending over while running. Landis started to point towards him, but didn't notice anything in his hands..."

I ask again: does the direction in which this fellow is running get him to the location of "Special Services" (I'm not sure if it was in the same location as DPD HQ).

Rowland's description:

Mr. ROWLAND - He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it.

Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us an estimate as to age?

Mr. ROWLAND - Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.

Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us an estimate as to height?

Mr. ROWLAND - 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, very thin.

Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion?

Mr. ROWLAND - Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.

Beige shirt and light green slacks (Landis) VS plaid shirt and bright colors, possibly red and green (Rowland).

Piper denied owning or wearing a green and red shirt ON THAT DAY [Nov 22] - which sounds like CYA in case his wardrobe got searched he could claim he got the shirt AFTER that day.

FBI description of Piper:

Born: Jan 23, 1908.

Height: 5' 10"

Weight: 140

Hair: gray

Eyes: brown

Build: slender

Facial characteristics: wears moustache; no scars or marks visible

FBI photo of Piper http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/gallery/ASSASSIONATION/JFK-WITNESSES-SUSPECTS/Front-view-of-eddie-Piper-pic_9.htm

The purpose of the FBI interview and photos - which also applied to West - was to determine if either may have been Rowland's man - yet there is no evidence that the photos were ever shown to Rowland. If they had been, and Rowland could not identify his man from them, that report would have been given prominence.

I submit again that Rowland DID see a Black gentleman on the 6th floor aged in his 50s - that this man was Eddie Piper - that Piper ran downstairs and out the loading dock in terror about the time of the assassination and headed to Special Services due to knowing them from being busted gambling. He was held overnight with nothing released officially about him save that initial report published Nov 24 concerning Oswald being escorted up by a "Negro" porter, who then returned to the 1st floor to watch the motorcade: this, nothing more than the outline of the cover story formulated after it was ordered that Oswald would take the fall alone. Whoever formulated this cover story and worded Piper's statement made one mistake: they were unaware that the motorcade was not running on time (for the amended timetable) and that it did not pass the TSBD at 12:25 as it should have, but about 5 minutes later. The gaffe was realized sometime between then and the time of Piper's testimony - with Piper given no questions on why he was now saying 12:27 to 12:30 instead of the 12:25 he originally claimed on two separate occasions.

[Gil Jesus]

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions. Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to height, weight, age?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to age?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to height?

Mr. ROWLAND. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, very thin.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.

( 2 H 188 )

MORE FROM ROWLAND:

Mr. ROWLAND. ...Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce I mean Main, and Ervay......

Mr. SPECTER. Were you observing the window which you marked "A" at the time he departed?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't. I just know, I was looking at the crowd around. and then I glanced back up again, and neither did I see the man with the rifle nor did I see him. The colored man went away.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was that after you first noticed the colored man in the window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifteen minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you looked back at window "A" at any time during that 15 minute interval?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you seen anybody in window "A" during that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The colored man was that--

Mr. SPECTER. So how many times did you notice him altogether?

Mr. ROWLAND. Several. I think I looked back about two, maybe three times a minute, an average. I was, you know, trying to find the man with the rifle to point him out to my wife. I noticed the colored man in that window. I looked at practically every window in the building but I didn't look at anything with the detail to see what I was looking for.

Mr. SPECTER. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?

Mr. ROWLAND. Another 5 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed this colored man on the window you have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front of you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there.

( 2 H 178 )

I wouldn't be surprised if the "colored man" had seen the gunman and was trying to avoid detection by hiding. It would explain why he appeared in the window, then disappeared, then re-appeared.

I don't believe any of the testimony indicated that he had a rifle.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Gil Jesus

[John Dolva]

bump

[Robert Howard]

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions. Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to height, weight, age?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to age?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to height?

Mr. ROWLAND. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, very thin.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.

( 2 H 188 )

To Steve Gaal:

Steve, I just wanted you to know I saw your query and did some googling, google maps, and didn't come up with any type of reference mapwise to Black River Crossing, just didn't want you to think, I had forgotten about you. Possibly the term was just regional, although I did find the lack of a current reference odd. I myself would like to know

if it was close to the International Bridge.

The reason I posted that was speculation on my part re the possibility that the two Molina's were related.......

END

Regarding the Piper, running man conundrum, the only thing I find troublesome about this person being Chism is the Secret Service agent, saying he had nothing in his hands,

Arthur Chism was carrying a baby right........

I was hoping one of the books Matrix for Assassination or Harvey and Lee might clarify this issue....

Of course it seems TSBD occupants were saying one thing to the Dallas Police on 11/22/63, and another when being deposed by the Warren Commission.

Troy Eugene West alleged he was "making coffee on the first floor for the employees" at the time of the shots.

http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=171509

Eddie Piper alleges he was "sitting on a box watching the parade," during his WC testimony he says he was sitting at

"about the second window on the first floor." But he's still sitting "on a box." [that seems to be a rather nebulous choice for a word, if you were being asked about your whereabouts at the time of the assassination, don't you think if you were sitting on something, you might be concerned enough to be a little more specific, a box of what Cornflakes?, a large box? literally, figure of speech? But Joseph Ball just plods along.....]

http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=171498

http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page383.php

Roy Edward Lewis said he "stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository," at that time.

http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=171491

All of the above individuals identified themselves as African-American in their affidavits. I do not buy for a second that Arthur Chism was who Landis was referring to.

It seems pretty obvious that Landis is referencing someone who, pardon the expression, had a "head of steam going" when he saw him running, if it was Chism running from where he stated he was at at the time the shots were fired, would Landis have even noticed him....I think not. And how do you not notice a baby in one's hands.

There is one other item, although I do not know the ethnicity of the following persons, John Armstrong pointed out that TSBD Employees Franklin Wester, Carl Jones and Gordon Smith were not interviewed by the FBI and their duties, length of employment and whereabouts at the time of the assassination are unknown; TSBD employee Haddon S Aiken worked at the warehouse on Houston Street.

see page 806 NOTE: Harvey And Lee, John Armstrong - 2003

Regarding Wester, Jones and Smith, if there is some other possibility, ie Piper, there isn't a better alibi, than no-one knowing your present at the scene in the first place.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Robert Howard

[Thomas Graves]

Anyone know the name of the guy, behind Larry Florer, being interviewed by the standing detective? In profile, the guy looks a bit like our old friend, The Mexico City Mystery Man...

--Thomas

Edited August 25, 2011 by Thomas Graves

[Pat Speer]

The man in Landis' statement is almost certainly the man on the steps with Hudson in the Muchmore film. By all appearances he ran toward Kennedy, heard shots and immediately high-tailed it out of there, never to be seen again.

As Landis was in the SS follow-up car, and out of Dealey Plaza within seconds of the shooting, it's highly unlikely he'd have seen Chism and/or Piper's response to the shots.

[Chris Davidson]

Pat,

I concur.

Here is a photo collage of the Chism's.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Chisms.png

Landis was long gone before the Chism's started their movements.

There is a photo of the "child exchange" between Mr/Mrs Chism, I just don't remember who took it.

chris

P.S.

Back to Greg, no more Chism interruptions from me.

[Robert Newell]

Anyone know the name of the guy, behind Larry Florer, being interviewed by the standing detective? In profile, the guy looks a bit like our old friend, The Mexico City Mystery Man...

--Thomas

Hi Thomas--Pretty sure that is Hugh Betzner.....Robert

[Greg Parker]

The man in Landis' statement is almost certainly the man on the steps with Hudson in the Muchmore film. By all appearances he ran toward Kennedy, heard shots and immediately high-tailed it out of there, never to be seen again.

As Landis was in the SS follow-up car, and out of Dealey Plaza within seconds of the shooting, it's highly unlikely he'd have seen Chism and/or Piper's response to the shots.

Pat,

if he was the one sitting with Hudson, then he repeatedly told Hudson to lay down. Why didn't he take his own advice?

[Duke Lane]

Landis' complete statement for this point in time.

"My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive after being hit like he was. I still was not certain from which direction the second shot came, but my reaction at this time was that the shot came from somewhere towards the front, right-hand side of the road.

I did not notice anyone on the overpass, and I scanned the area to the right of and below the overpass where the terrain sloped towards the road on which we were traveling. The only person I recall seeing clearly was a Negro male in light green slacks and a beige colored shirt running from my left to right, up the slope, across a grassy section, along a sidewalk, towards some steps and what appeared to be a low stone wall. He was bent over while running and I started to point towards him, but I didn't notice anything in his hands and by this time we were going under the overpass at a very high rate of speed. I was looking back and saw a motorcycle policeman stopping along the curb approximately adjacent to where I saw the Negro running."

I'm pretty sure the only person Landis could be describing is: http://i140.photobuc...n/Moorman-2.gif according to the extant films that are available.

Parsing what he said:

I scanned the area to the right of and below the overpass where the terrain sloped towards the road on which we were traveling.

... effectively, the Grassy Knoll, no? "To the right of and below the overpass where the terrain sloped towards the road." This does not describe an area nearer to the TSBD. Landis was obviously referring to a post-shooting time when he said, "My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive after being hit like he was," and thus he could only be referring to an area beyond the TSBD area ... from which latter Piper is supposedly running. The area described by Landis is beyond where Greg postulates Piper is running.

The only person I recall seeing clearly was a Negro male in light green slacks and a beige colored shirt running from my left to right, up the slope, across a grassy section, along a sidewalk, towards some steps and what appeared to be a low stone wall.

As Landis was travelling west on Elm Street toward the Triple Underpass, and looking at "the area to the right of and below the overpass (etc.)," he was clearly looking toward the north, and not toward the south and the broad, flat plaza. Thus anyone who was "running from my left to right" would be running from the TU and generally toward the TSBD, not away from it; he was running up the slope, meaning he was running generally away from Elm Street and not toward it; and if Landis' sequence of "up the slope, across a grassy section, along a sidewalk toward some steps and what appeared to be a low stone wall," the man is apparently coming from the TU, up the hill, across the grass, toward the pergola and the sidewalk and steps on the west side of it.

It does not appear that the man in the photo linked in Chris's post is wearing "light green slacks," or "light" slacks of any color, but that's only my opinion. That man was already on the steps, and not running "across a grassy section," tho' one can argue that he might've run "up the slope" and the rest.

He was bent over while running and I started to point towards him, but I didn't notice anything in his hands and by this time we were going under the overpass at a very high rate of speed. I was looking back and saw a motorcycle policeman stopping along the curb approximately adjacent to where I saw the Negro running.

The timing of when this observation occurred can be easily deduced from this, no? Unfortunately, the description of the motorcycle being "adjacent to where I saw the Negro running" doesn't tell us quite what we want to know: adjacent-east? adjacent-south? what? But at least we have an approximation - again - of where the black man was running.

Could Piper - or anyone from TSBD - have gotten that far and then run back toward the TSBD in time before Landis passed under the TU, and if they could, why would they?!?

[Pat Speer]

The man in Landis' statement is almost certainly the man on the steps with Hudson in the Muchmore film. By all appearances he ran toward Kennedy, heard shots and immediately high-tailed it out of there, never to be seen again.

As Landis was in the SS follow-up car, and out of Dealey Plaza within seconds of the shooting, it's highly unlikely he'd have seen Chism and/or Piper's response to the shots.

Pat,

if he was the one sitting with Hudson, then he repeatedly told Hudson to lay down. Why didn't he take his own advice?

The black man next to Hudson in the Muchmore film and Moorman photo is not, to my thinking, the man Hudson spoke to. While this man's behavior is suspicious, it's not really unexpected when you consider he was a black man in the south, and that very few of the dozens of black spectators near Houston and Elm ever came forward to tell their stories.

[Greg Parker]

edit

Edited October 25, 2012 by Greg Parker