Richard Carr source data

[Lee Forman]

Hi all. Does anyone have the report cited by this RIF below?

AGENCY : FBI

RECORD NUMBER : 124-10037-10131

RECORDS SERIES : DL

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 100-10461-201

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : FBI

FROM : CARR, RICHARD A.

TO : SAC, DL

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 11/30/1963

PAGES : 1

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : JFK, ASSISTANCE

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 05/29/1996

Spartacus has a quote from Carr which I have been unable to verify.

'Carr followed the man and later told the FBI: "This man, walking very fast, proceeded on Houston Street south to Commerce Street to Record Street. The man got into a 1961 or 1962 gray Rambler station wagon which was parked just north of Commerce Street on Record Street."'

I cannot find where Carr told the FBI, or anyone else, any such thing. Aside from the Clay Shaw transcript, the only other genuine source data I can find is a reference to that one page FBI report - which I was unable to find at Ferrell.

I could be wrong - but the source of the quote may, ironically, have come from an article written by Armstrong about getting the facts right.

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html

Richard Randolph Carr --- 12:28 pm - 12:40 pm --- Carr observed a man looking out the top floor of the TSBD moments before the shooting. He described the man as having an athletic build, wearing horn rim glasses, and wearing a brown coat. Minutes after the assassination Carr walked north on Houston toward the TSBD. Carr saw the man he had seen in the TSBD walk toward him on Houston. This man turned right (Carr's right) on Commerce, walked one block to Record Street and got into a 1961 or 1962 light colored Nash Rambler station wagon driven by a "young negro man." The station wagon, just north of the intersection of Commerce and Record, was last seen by Carr heading in the direction of the TSBD --- two blocks north and one block west (CD385).

Anyone know where Armstrong got this info? Does CD385 refer to the disc that came with his book [which I no longer have], or to the original FBI report?

Here's what he said at the Clay Shaw trial summarized and quoted:

- was watching from his position on the 7th floor of the new courthouse building on Houston

- saw three men exit the TSBD and get into the Rambler and drive it NORTH

- a fourth man walked up Houston and banged a left on Commerce and Carr watched him until he was out of sight

A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this.

Q: Which way was the station wagon facing?

A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north.

Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated?

A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed.

Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies?

A: Yes, I did.

A: The same man that I saw here in this window was with the three men that I told you a minute ago, they came out from behind the School Book Depository, got in the station wagon, one man crossed the street and then came down this side of Houston Street and turned onto Commerce Street.

BY MR. DYMOND:

Q: And you were watching that procedure at the same time that you were watching what was going on in the grassy knoll area?

A: No, sir.

Q: And what was going on around the Presidential vehicle and in the motorcade, right?

A: No, sir, I was watching that man at that time, and I watched him until I could see him no longer, but that man acted as if he was in a hurry and someone was following him, and I would know that man if I ever saw him again.

Would very much appreciate any additional genuine reference material which would support the quote from Armstrong's article, and an understanding of the source data.

[Greg Parker]

Lee, I think this is probably the source.

http://www.maryferre...85&relPageId=70

[Josiah Thompson]

The copy of CD 385 that Greg Parker turned you onto I think is correct. I found it in the Archives in 1967 and published it in Six Secondson pages 308-309. It is an FBI 302 that contains the text of an affidavit signed by Carr. I never have seen the signed copy.

JT

[Lee Forman]

The copy of CD 385 that Greg Parker turned you onto I think is correct. I found it in the Archives in 1967 and published it in Six Secondson pages 308-309. It is an FBI 302 that contains the text of an affidavit signed by Carr. I never have seen the signed copy.

JT

Many thanks Greg and Josiah - there are of course, a few problems here - the first of which consists of the date - the FBI RIF I cited is November of 1963 - the FBI report 1964. Too bad Carr isn't around to ask - but seems highly dubious that Carr would have known about where this individual went unless he followed him - almost as if the facts were mixed to create a 'new truth.' I wonder if Carr had the opportunity to see this version - as it seems to me that there is a very nice case for a Rambler to have been parked on the Elm st extension - facing North. That this car saw three passengers leave the TSBD, follow the Elm extension to the back exit, and drive away on Houston, North - and then return once 2 passengers had been dropped [Greyhound bus station within blocks] returned on Elm to whistle and pick up a fourth Oswald looking character - while a fifth individual had walked away down Commerce and out of view. It seems plausible to mesh with Brennan's later account [save for the model of the vehicle and potentially it's position], Robinson and Cooper, Craig, Helen, etc. -- Save for this document - which places Carr at street level [which doesn't jive well], and has him knowing where this individual ended up - meaning he followed him - and seemingly changes the age/race of the driver - I smell Denmark rot here.

Need to determine if this is the 1963 FBI file cited or if this may be different...a signed copy would be nice for sure.

[Thomas Graves]

See the car in the background of this Croft photo, behind the lady wearing blue dress and red sweater? With all due respect to J.W. King, imho it's a Rambler Station Wagon parked on the Elm Street Extension, facing east-north-east. (I used to own a 1961 "Cross Country" station wagon and I got very good at recognizing it from a distance in big dark parking lots, etc.)

Note: In the Robert Hughes film, I found another Rambler station wagon in the parking lot behind the "Grassy Knoll" with its headlights on and one of the hat-and-coat-wearing "officials" approaching it and then veering away from it. There's no reason I can think of for its headlights being on other than to attract someone-in-particular's attention or to send another sort of prearranged signal.

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Edited July 17, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[John Dolva]

I think so too plus the ''body'' is the left rear pillar.

[Thomas Graves]

deleted

Edited July 17, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[John Dolva]

The crop I posted with the really rough outlines is smoothed. A zoom on a copy* without any value alteration shows a consistent pixelation and everything seems to me to be explainable.

edit add : From Robins Site*

Edited November 10, 2011 by John Dolva

[Thomas Graves]

The crop I posted with the really rough outlines is smoothed. A zoom on a copy* without any value alteration shows a consistent pixelation and everything seems to me to be explainable.

edit add : From Robins Site*

John,

Where did you post it??

--Tommy

Never mind, John. I found it! On the "Shooter Seen" thread, post #39.

--Tommy

Edited November 11, 2011 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

See the car in the background of this Croft photo, behind the lady wearing blue dress and red sweater? It's a gosh darned Rambler Station Wagon parked on the Elm Street Extension. (I used to own a 1961 "Cross Country" station wagon and I got very good at recognizing it from a distance in big dark parking lots, etc.)

Now regarding the (dark green?) pickup truck parked in front of the Rambler, I don't suppose that's a man sitting behind the steering wheel, leaning over far to his right with his head turned that direction as well in order to fully appreciate the upcoming "action" down on Elm Street? Nah. It's probably just a strange part of that tree branch that makes it look like that. Except that when I looked at a much larger "blow up" of this photo, I thought I detected flesh tones in his face and a curving white line right where a collar would be...

Note: I found another Rambler station wagon in the parking lot behind the Grassy Knoll with its headlights on and one of the hat-wearing men in suits ("Rip" Robertson or John O'Hare?) approaching it. There's no reason I can think of for its headlights being on other than to attract someone-in-particular's attention or to send another sort of prearranged signal.

--Tommy

bump

[Duke Lane]

... Would very much appreciate any additional genuine reference material which would support the quote from Armstrong's article, and an understanding of the source data.

Lee,

We had a huge discussion about Carr a couple of years ago on this forum; don't recall what it was called, but there was a lot of "extra" stuff that you'll seldom find all together in one place. All of Carr's various statements and their evolutions were discussed and dissected.

Bottom line is this: Carr didn't see anything other than what he told the FBI the first time, which was, in effect, "nothing." All the rest was just an elongation of his 15 minutes of fame. Most if not all of what he swore to in New Orleans was false (stipulating his name and each use of "the" and "a"), including his military record.

But even tho' he was a de facto if not de jure deserter, and not the decorated WWII hero he claimed to have been, and despite the fact that it was and is physically impossible for him to see what he later claimed to have seen (his first description to the FBI was accurate), some people continue to believe his stories. Plural.

[William Kelly]

... Would very much appreciate any additional genuine reference material which would support the quote from Armstrong's article, and an understanding of the source data.

Lee,

We had a huge discussion about Carr a couple of years ago on this forum; don't recall what it was called, but there was a lot of "extra" stuff that you'll seldom find all together in one place. All of Carr's various statements and their evolutions were discussed and dissected.

Bottom line is this: Carr didn't see anything other than what he told the FBI the first time, which was, in effect, "nothing." All the rest was just an elongation of his 15 minutes of fame. Most if not all of what he swore to in New Orleans was false (stipulating his name and each use of "the" and "a"), including his military record.

But even tho' he was a de facto if not de jure deserter, and not the decorated WWII hero he claimed to have been, and despite the fact that it was and is physically impossible for him to see what he later claimed to have seen (his first description to the FBI was accurate), some people continue to believe his stories. Plural.

Wait a minute Duke,

I remember that thread too, and while you were the one who said Carr's military record was false, and he wasn't a Ranger as he claimed, I called his pals as his local VFW and talked with the commander who said Carr was indeed a veteran.

In addition, what he says in his first statement is significant, which is that he saw a man in the window of the top floor of the TSBD and then shortly thereafter saw him walking down the street and enter a Rambler station wagon.

How is that not significant, especially when we have other people seeing the Rambler, we have photos of the Rambler and it appears that Richard Bartholomew identified the Rambler and its owner at the time?

Richard Randolph Carr : Biography

BK

Edited November 12, 2011 by William Kelly

[Duke Lane]

Wait a minute Duke,

I remember that thread too, and while you were the one who said Carr's military record was false, and he wasn't a Ranger as he claimed, I called his pals as his local VFW and talked with the commander who said Carr was indeed a veteran.

In addition, what he says in his first statement is significant, which is that he saw a man in the window of the top floor of the TSBD and then shortly thereafter saw him walking down the street and enter a Rambler station wagon.

How is that not significant, especially when we have other people seeing the Rambler, we have photos of the Rambler and it appears that Richard Bartholomew identified the Rambler and its owner at the time?

Richard Randolph Carr : Biography

No, Bill, it was Antti who discovered that his claimed military record was false, that the Ranger battalion that he claimed to be part of wasn't where he said it was, and that neither was Carr. I know enough about the VFW (quite a lot, actually) to know that what he told anyone there doesn't necessarily have any bearing on reality other than that he had something to show that he served during a relevent time frame in a war zone.

His first statement said that he couldn't see anything other than the upper-most (7th floor) windows of the TSBD and the "grassy area" to the left. I do not recall that the Rambler was any part of his FIRST statement, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. His "identification" of a Rambler came much later, and included - under oath - events that he could not possibly have seen from his supposed vantage point, i.e., anything happening on Houston Street next to the TSBD.

Cling to what you will, but that spaghetti won't stick on any wall that's not smeared thickly with glue.

[William Kelly]

Wait a minute Duke,

I remember that thread too, and while you were the one who said Carr's military record was false, and he wasn't a Ranger as he claimed, I called his pals as his local VFW and talked with the commander who said Carr was indeed a veteran.

In addition, what he says in his first statement is significant, which is that he saw a man in the window of the top floor of the TSBD and then shortly thereafter saw him walking down the street and enter a Rambler station wagon.

How is that not significant, especially when we have other people seeing the Rambler, we have photos of the Rambler and it appears that Richard Bartholomew identified the Rambler and its owner at the time?

Richard Randolph Carr : Biography

No, Bill, it was Antti who discovered that his claimed military record was false, that the Ranger battalion that he claimed to be part of wasn't where he said it was, and that neither was Carr. I know enough about the VFW (quite a lot, actually) to know that what he told anyone there doesn't necessarily have any bearing on reality other than that he had something to show that he served during a relevent time frame in a war zone.

His first statement said that he couldn't see anything other than the upper-most (7th floor) windows of the TSBD and the "grassy area" to the left. I do not recall that the Rambler was any part of his FIRST statement, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. His "identification" of a Rambler came much later, and included - under oath - events that he could not possibly have seen from his supposed vantage point, i.e., anything happening on Houston Street next to the TSBD.

Cling to what you will, but that spaghetti won't stick on any wall that's not smeared thickly with glue.

Okay Duke,

I found the original thread and rebooted it.

Antti got Carr's miltiary records that weren't destroyed in the St. Louis fire, and discovered he was dishonorably discharged for going AWOL in 1945, after serving in First Army combat at D-Day, Battle of Bulge, etc., so he lied, but was a combat veteran.

So the bottom line is Carr was at Dealey Plaza, he was in the upper floors of the under construction building, he saw a man wearing a hat in the upper floors of the TSBD, he heard three shots, he went over to that area and saw the man he saw in the upper floors of the TSBD get into a light colored Rambler station wagon and then went home. He didn't seek attention but told his wife or family what he saw and someone else called the authorities and Carr made his statement.

I also think it possibly relevant that Carr showed his VFW commander relevant documents that he was a veteran, and said that he also worked for the DIA - Defense Intl Agency, - after being dishonorably discharged - which seems to fall into the pattern of others - including Oswald, whose dishonorable discharge is used as a sort of blackmail against them to continue working for them.

[Lee Forman]

I prefer to reserve judgement until after I can get a look at the first FBI report. There are two essential disconnects between his 1964 account and Clay Shaw - namely:

1. In the Clay Shaw account, he is on the 7th floor of the new courts building - observing everything, including the Elm St extension and Rambler and the twitchy character walking up Houston and then down Commerce until he is out of view. No car - pun intended. Never mentions leaving his location on the 7th floor.

2. In the FBI version, he begins on the 7th floor and ends at street level. For him to witness the man walking up Houston and down Commerce and enter a Rambler, if the man passed him on Houston walking toward him, he would have had to have followed the man.

If I had to chose, I like number 1 better - and concerning the affidavit, as mentioned here - not signed by Carr.

This may not be immediately solvable - however, despite his comments on the military records, etc., I am not inclined to lean towards trusting a 1964 FBI affidavit concerning what Carr said as being accurate, or 'unspoiled' with the insertion of true details Carr provided twisted as I said to create a different truth. I can cite Craig here in support as being just one witness to changes made in his account. If the one pager contains very little info - then it looks like it's going to need to stay unresolved.

If we were able to discount this FBI document, we'd have ONE Rambler on the Elm St extension, heading around the back of the TSBD, exiting on Houston with three men - returning within minutes, south on Elm, minus 2 passengers, to stop and pick up an Oswald look-a-like. If nothing else, finding this scenario very interesting - sorry for the crude diagram using Google Maps - anyone remember the location of the old Greyhound Bus Station?