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Lee Forman

Richard Carr source data

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Lee Farley - many thanks, I believe you have successfully connected the dots here - the original 'statement' being hearsay reported officially through another, followed by a series of interviews. There was, among the Baylor docs you cited, this handwritten affidavit signed and initialed by Carr - which counters the statements made earlier by Mary Sue Brown - and Carr provides clarification in this hand written version as well. Hence the linear sequence of reports available by Carr is consistent - the 1963 statements he denies in his first reports in 1964 are not his direct statements.

The grey colored Rambler IS placed down Commerce on Record st by Carr - contrary to his later Clay Shaw account - in this handwritten and signed version. Further [despite a photographic record of what appears to be a Rambler parked on the Elm St extension parked in the opposite direction than Carr's later account] it failed to mesh with the account provided later by Brennan in his book [concerning a 55 - 57 Oldsmobile] which maaaaybe can still work with Bowers cited '59 Olds wagon [12:00pm].

Curiously enough, if you read Page 17 - his description of the man seen is not consistent with the alleged sniper window - even if we were to credit his recollection as being off [he cites the Top floor, which = 7th], he is clear that the man 'not in the end window' but in the 'second window over' from Houston. Just an aside. I don't know whether or not the 7th floor would have been visible from his location or not [and don't really care] - unfortunately, I see that it's not possible to make much use of Carr's Clay Shaw 'rambling' - which is a pity. Left with the impression that he may have indeed witnessed Johnson's henchman - not much value otherwise.

http://contentdm.baylor.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/15poage-arm&CISOPTR=33901&REC=2

- lee

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... It's apparent that if Carr couldn't see in the sniper's window, the sniper could probably see him.

Could ... or couldn't? As written, it makes no "apparent" sense: "if I cannot see you, you can probably see me?"

If you look at the photo taken from the view of the sniper's window posted above, you can clearly see the building under construction - so therefore the sniper, whoever he was, could have seen Carr going up the steps on the side of the building under construction.

Whether or not Carr could have seen anyone in the windows of the TSBD is up to you.

OK, if you insist.

By this measure, someone who couldn't be seen behind Old Red from the window in the above photo might be able to see someone in the window ... it's "up to me" whether he could or not.

Lines of sight work the same in both directions.

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Dukes point, that Carr could not have seen the Huston Street Rambler and the men getting into it, from the scaffold on which he was standing, is obsolete, because Carr told Garrison he saw that incident AFTER he had left the scaffold...he saw that incident from ground level...

KK

edit

Edited by Karl Kinaski

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Cover-Up by Gary Shaw, interview by Shaw in April of 1975 (pg.13)

Mrs. Walther was not the only person to see a man wearing a brown suit coat on an upper floor of the Depository. Steelworker Richard Randolph Carr was working on the seventh story of the new courthouse building, then under construction at Commerce and Houston Streets. Carr saw, standing on the sixth floor of the Depository, a heavy-set man wearing a hat, tan sportcoat and horn-rimmed glasses. Very shortly after the President was shot Carr observed a Rambler station wagon with a luggage rack parked facing north alongside the eastern side of the Depository and on the wrong side of Houston Street. Two men ran from either inside or from behind the building and entered the Rambler, which left in such a hurry that one of its doors was still open; Carr last saw the station wagon speeding north on Houston.
After climbing to the ground, to see what had happened, Carr looked up Houston Street and saw the same man in the tan jacket that he had seen in the Book Depository. Carr told the author that the man was “in an extreme hurry and kept looking over his shoulder.” He was last seen walking rapidly eastward on Commerce Street. Carr was not called to testify before the Warren Commission.
But the experience he had with agencies investigating the President’s murder was typical of that of several other witnesses. Carr told the author in a taped interview: “The FBI came to my house - there was two of them - and they said they heard I witnessed the assassination and I said I did. They told me, ‘If you didn’t see Lee Harvey Oswald in the School Book Depository with a rifle, you didn’t witness it.’ I said, ‘Well, the man I saw on television that they tell me is Lee Harvey Oswald was not in the window of the School Book Depository. That’s not the man.’ And he (the FBI agent) said I better keep my mouth shut. He did not ask me what I saw, he told me what I saw.”
Not long after the above visit, real harassment began. Like a number of other witnesses, Carr found that it could be frustrating - and downright dangerous - if one tried to contradict the official lie in favor of the facts. One night Carr was paid a visit by twelve Dallas policemen and detectives. With a search warrant they went through the entire home (“They tore up the house,” Carr said), supposedly searching for “stolen articles.” While this was done Carr and his wife were ordered to sit on a couch while two of the policemen held shotguns on them. They took Carr and his son to jail and held the elder overnight. His son was questioned for several hours as they attempted to make him admit that “stolen articles” were in his father’s house. The following day Carr received an anonymous telephone call advising him to “get out of Texas.” The threatening phone calls continued and finally, for the safety of his family, Carr moved to Montana.
Things for Carr were no better in Montana. One morning three sticks of dynamite were found wired to the ignition of his automobile. Fifteen days before he was to testify at the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans, Carr stepped out on his front porch and was almost shot by a gunman; Carr was alerted by a policeman who lived next door and they were able to apprehend the would-be killer.
After testifying at the hearing for Shaw, Carr was attacked in Atlanta, Georgia by two men, one of which stabbed Carr in the back and in the left arm; the knife blade actually broke off in his arm. Carr shot one of the assailants three times, killing him. He then fled to relatives in West Virginia where he turned himself in and was later no-billed by an Atlanta jury.
Carr and his family were not bothered for several years. But in early 1975, as talk of reopening the JFK investigation increased, they began to receive more threatening phone calls. Now Carr no longer answers the telephone unless he is certain who is calling.

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Josh: Only one thing wrong with your Gary Shaw quote:

Carr saw the men entering the Huston-street Rambler AFTER climbing to the ground...he made this particular observation on ground level...that is an important difference...

KK

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Karl, I don’t necessarily take this Shaw quote as meaning Carr saw the Rambler from the 7th floor of the new courthouse. I think it’s just a case of some improper wording.

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Standing on the ground below the 6th floor "snipers nest" you can see the top 2 or 3 floors of the building Carr was observing from.  I don't remember what floor he was on.  Going up construction scaffolding outside the building I'm not sure what you might have seen.  I've stood at the bottom corner of this and you can't see the TSBD.  There is a better photo of the construction scaffolding and building in progress at the time somewhere on the internet I've seen showing the whole thing.  To my knowledge no one ever asked Carr if the men/man he saw was in the "sniper window", the one next to it, in the middle of the building or even further West.  Bill Kelly's comment about Carr's dishonorable discharge similarity to that of Oswald and potential use of him by others is interesting also.

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For what its worth I took walking tours to the purported Carr viewing position on  number of occasions during Lancer conferences and asked them if they could see what he claimed to have seen.  As an add-on I asked them if they could see windows in the TSBD clearly enough to describe someone in them in any detail whatsoever.   I don't recall anyone ever being comfortable with what he described after their personal experience.

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Did Carr know of Carolyn Walthers "brown suit man" statements before he gave this description himself?

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On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2011 at 9:26 AM, William Kelly said:

Okay Duke,

I found the original thread and rebooted it.

Antti got Carr's miltiary records that weren't destroyed in the St. Louis fire, and discovered he was dishonorably discharged for going AWOL in 1945, after serving in First Army combat at D-Day, Battle of Bulge, etc., so he lied, but was a combat veteran.

So the bottom line is Carr was at Dealey Plaza, he was in the upper floors of the under construction building, he saw a man wearing a hat in the upper floors of the TSBD, he heard three shots, he went over to that area and saw the man he saw in the upper floors of the TSBD get into a light colored Rambler station wagon and then went home. He didn't seek attention but told his wife or family what he saw and someone else called the authorities and Carr made his statement.

I also think it possibly relevant that Carr showed his VFW commander relevant documents that he was a veteran, and said that he also worked for the DIA - Defense Intl Agency, - after being dishonorably discharged - which seems to fall into the pattern of others - including Oswald, whose dishonorable discharge is used as a sort of blackmail against them to continue working for them.

Joe, read this post from Bill Kelly.  Carr "told his wife or family, someone else called authorities".  Then he made a FBI statement on 2/4/64.  Thanks to Greg Parker for the link in an earlier post.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111185#relPageId=69&tab=page

I don't know if he's read Carolyn Walthers statement by then or not.

But also note Bill's comment about him working for the DIA after his dishonorable discharge regarding it being used as possible blackmail.

Still not saying his story is unbelievable but questionable.  On the other hand why would someone in say the CIA or elsewhere have him concoct such a story contradictory to the official lone nut did it one?  Or, why would he subject himself and his family to continued harassment and threats on his life, if they are all true?

Another conundrum, or mystery wrapped in an enigma.  Has anyone ever verified his stabbing in Florida, killing of the man and no bill?  Any police report available on the shots fired at him or the dynamite under the hood of his car in Montana? 

 

 

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Walther's statement to the FBI was taken in early December, 1963.  Carr's statements ( 2 ) were taken in January and February 1964.

Walther's described a "Brown Suit" man.  Carr said "Tan."

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Just watched the Carolyn Walther interview again for what...the 50th time?

To me she presents one of the most sincere demeanor interviews - quiet, calm, somber.

She seems so salt-of-the-earth honest.

Maybe she got one or two things wrong ( the wrong floor? ) but her description of the kneeling rifle holder fits others ( white shirt ) and it seems so illogical that she would create a story with another man next to the kneeling man and even describe his clothing and color of this. And then add on this other standing man holding another gun which she described in a fair amount of detail.

If she accurately described the scene with two men, both with rifles, perhaps that other standing man was holding his gun on the kneeling one to make sure he ( the kneeling man) would not "chicken out" and instead carry out his orders to shoot his gun at the motorcade?

That wouldn't be a totally illogical scenario.

I don't think Carr ever knew what Carolyn Walthers had told the FBI one month before they took his affidavit.  Both stated they saw a man with a suit coat on. One described it's color as "Tan". The other "Brown." 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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This picture shows the construction scaffolding around the (to be) courts building which would have extended out from the walls 6-8' I'd think.  Carr was climbing stairs within this scaffolding or stairs constructed on the out side of the scaffolding.  If you look to the right of center of the scaffolding on the Houston street side, see the whitish looking jagged "line" going up?  Either case would increase the chance that he Could have seen the purported sniper window although at one point he said it was the second window over.  That said, if a person or persons were observed in windows other than the One partially opened, I've read the windows were filthy and with no lighting inside it seems it would have been difficult to determine if a sport coat was brown, tan or even gray.  As for identifying horn rimmed glasses... maybe Carr had better than 20/20 vision.

I have seen a better, larger, closer picture of just primarily the courts building in 1963 but couldn't find it.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=rStjJGIG&id=D97397998839E54FA6566B91ED57C2EDB6EED3E8&thid=OIP.rStjJGIG0aUI0d0pJdQhqgHaFc&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.thomasladegaard.dk%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2013%2f05%2fDealey-Plaza-2.jpg&exph=427&expw=580&q=dealey+plaza+pictures+1963&simid=608043114097150675&selectedIndex=243&ajaxhist=0  

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