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David Josephs

Where is the CHECK/MO for Oswald's $10

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So, by implication, we've now got Lee Farley calling all of the following people liars too (since Farley is clearly impying in this thread that Ted Callaway saw NO GUNMAN AT ALL on Patton on 11/22/63):

B.D. Searcy

Pat Patterson

Warren Reynolds

Sam Guinyard

L.J. Lewis

Harold Russell

All of the above witnesses saw a gunman in the area of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Boulevard just after J.D. Tippit was shot.

And, to a lesser degree, all of the following witnesses must be liars too (to the extent that they each saw the lone killer of Tippit at the corner of 10th & Patton and moving toward the area on Patton where Ted Callaway's car lot was located):

Barbara Davis

Virginia Davis

Domingo Benavides

William Scoggins

Here's what Sam Guinyard told the Warren Commission:

JOSEPH BALL -- "Did you see Mr. Callaway there?"

SAM GUINYARD -- "We was together; yes, sir."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/guinyard1.htm

=================

I have a feeling that Lee Farley is just pulling my leg in this thread re Callaway, though. Because nobody with all their screws tightened can possibly deny that Callaway saw a gunman (Lee Oswald to be exact) on Patton Avenue. Particularly when ALL of the above witnesses corroborate Callaway's observations.

I guess maybe it's a slow week at Anybody-But-Oswald central (where Farley is Vice-President -- DiEugenio is Grand Poobah), so he decided to come up with one of the silliest theories I have ever heard re this case -- i.e., that Ted Callaway saw NO GUNMAN AT ALL on Patton on 11/22. That rivals Brian David Andersen's "JFK WAS WEARING A PYROTECHNICS DEVICE AND FAKED HIS OWN DEATH" theory.

Edited by David Von Pein

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And by the way, there is a difference between a man with a gun, and a gunman. Just for the record you have only ONE official eyewitness to the shooting of J.D. Tippit and that is Helen Louise Markham.

Dead wrong. Bill Scoggins is positively a "Murder Witness", no matter how you want to categorize him. He saw Tippit fall to the ground and then saw Oswald, with a gun, coming straight toward him.

And, of course, Domingo Benavides is a murder witness too. And probably Jack Tatum, but you can throw him out if you like (which you will), because he didn't surface for 15 more years. But he saw Oswald shoot Tippit in the head.

So, to say that Helen Markham is the only "official eyewitness" is just a crock. And you know it's a crock.

Let me repeat my edit from my last post (so you can now start calling Sam Guinyard a bald-faced xxxx too):

JOSEPH BALL -- "Did you see Mr. Callaway there?"

SAM GUINYARD -- "We was together; yes, sir."

Edited by David Von Pein

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It is only the likes of you that this stuff just rolls off of.

Yeah, just pretend that DVP is the ONLY person on the planet who thinks your silliness re Callaway is really silliness.

So, you'll ignore the fact that the WC and the HSCA declared your favorite patsy guilty of killing Tippit (and Kennedy). And there are many thousands of reasonable people out there, besides me, who know that Callaway saw Oswald and that Oswald shot Tippit.

Hell, you don't even think that Oswald's actions in the theater are indicative of his guilt, do you? He pulls a gun, tries to shoot more cops, utters one (or two) statements that reek with guilt ("It's all over now" and/or "This is it"), and fights like a wild man before the cuffs are slapped on him.

Or do you think Oswald really had a gun in the theater? Was that all "fraudulent" too? Including Johnny Brewer's confirmation of an ARMED Oswald fighting with the cops inside the theater?

(Yes, I changed the subject a bit. But, oh well.)

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It’s interesting you bring up Guinyard, Dave. Didn’t he say he saw the “gunman” emptying the spent shells from his revolver.

He was with Callaway wasn’t he? Did Callaway see this?

Irrelevant for this discussion. This discussion is all about your stupid and inane belief that Callaway was lying about seeing ANY gunman on Patton Avenue after Tippit was shot.

But Guinyard confirms that he was right next to Callaway when the gunman passed by.

Or would you like now to say that Callaway WAS there, but he had his eyes closed and never SAW anything?

Can you direct me to Jack Tatum's Warren Commission testimony please?

I already said that you can toss Tatum in the trash (which, of course, you already have--years ago). Why are you belaboring this? Whenever I talk to a CTer, I always toss Tatum in the garbage too. (Just like you are forced to reject Beverly Oliver and Gordon Arnold on the same grounds.)

Edited by David Von Pein

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So, what are you saying, Lee? Do you think both Callaway and Guinyard were liars? They really WEREN'T together when Oswald passed by?

And actually, come to think of it, Guinyard is a good witness for the proposition that Oswald was still, indeed, "kicking out shells" out of his gun all the way down Patton, which means that a FIFTH shell might very well have been ejected farther down the street from the corner of 10th & Patton, which would be consistent with Oswald firing five shots (as Callaway always maintained), with one of the shells never being recovered.

I've never heard of anybody hunting for shells far down Patton Avenue. Have you? It's quite possible that a shell was dropped there by Oswald and never found.

Quote
Both are taken to City Hall to ID the man they saw. They ID him together, along with Cecil McWatters who was there to get railroaded into an ID. Just before the parade starts, Jim Leavelle says, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him."

Here's what Callaway said about that:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-bEyazi8WAuSVMtWG1aTWlNeWc/view

Edited by David Von Pein

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Mr Von Pein... you've succeeded in diverting the attention of yet another thread...

let's try not being tautological for once okay?

Forget whether Oswald has this gun or not... there are some basic steps in the process that are MISSING...

The "CASH" marked by the "X" is related to the $19.95 balance plus COD charges...

I have a few "DO YOU THINKS" as well

Do you think that Seaport would not record the reciept of the COD deposit? This invoice is dated March 13... the $10 deposit was sent "in january"?

When did Seaport get the coupon and deposit... and why is there not a single shred of evidence supporting that answer?

Do you think that Seaport would not record the deposit of that $10 in some sort of record or DO YOU THINK they just kept their money under a mattress?

Do YOU THINK that Railway would want to collect their money as well? Don't they get the $1.27 COD charge? So Railway would have records of the $1.27 transaction, as well as the forwading of the money to Seaport...

DO YOU THINK there would be records of these transactions?

And, IMO, the rifle and pistol were not ordered a month apart. Oswald merely filled out the pistol coupon on January 27th, but it's almost a certainty that he didn't mail it until March 12th...the same day he mailed in his rifle coupon to Klein's.

In what did Oswald mail the $10 cash deposit? What day did Seaport get the order? Should be in the records if any of the FBI cared to look...

So please DVP... stick to the questions... you want to start a post on what you think is OBVIOUS... have at it...

I just want to know why the records for the 2nd most important gun purchase are not available.

DJ

There is no indication he ever left to pick up the rifle or the pistol, both of which arrived at the Post Office on the same day even though they were ordered a month apart.

Where is your proof the rifle and pistol arrived at the P.O. (coming from Chicago and Los Angeles, respectively) "on the same day"? There's no proof of that. (Not that it really matters, of course.)

Plus: Why couldn't Oswald have picked up his guns on a Saturday, instead of a workday? He didn't work Saturdays at Jaggars, did he? And weren't the post offices open at least a half-day on Saturdays in Dallas in 1963? (They are here in Indiana.)

Another basic, common-sense point needs to be made here----

Who the heck orders something through the mail, and then doesn't even bother to go and pick it up?

And please don't chime in with "Where's the proof Oswald ordered ANY guns through the mail?" -- because that's totally absurd. OF COURSE Oswald ordered his guns via mail-order. Hence, he would have been expecting them to arrive at the place he had them sent--his P.O. Box. Hence, he would have picked the damn things up.

Can anyone possibly fight the basic logic of my last paragraph?

And, IMO, the rifle and pistol were not ordered a month apart. Oswald merely filled out the pistol coupon on January 27th, but it's almost a certainty that he didn't mail it until March 12th...the same day he mailed in his rifle coupon to Klein's.

How can we know this?

Because BOTH Seaport & Klein's internal paperwork show stamped dates of "March 13, 1963" on the respective invoices for those purchases. (Which, of course, would also mean, if I'm correct, that Oswald's revolver coupon made it to L.A. in just one day -- which is possible, since he very likely used Air Mail to mail it too, like he did his Klein's order.)

But do you really think that Seaport received Oswald's order in late January, but then didn't write up the invoice until March 13th? I would doubt it.

And please note that the Seaport order indicates with an "X" the method of Oswald's initial $10 deposit -- via "Cash".

MichaelisEx2.jpg

WaldmanExhibitNo7.jpg?t=1279170764

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Okay David, If we know it was cash and the Warren Commission knew it was cash, then...Why ask Holmes about a Money Order to Seaport? Was Belin just shooting the breeze with Harry?

Belin was probably inquiring about a possible money order that Oswald might have used to pay the C.O.D. balance of $19.95 (+$1.27) when he picked up the revolver.

What makes you think Belin was talking about Oswald's deposit payment of $10.00?

We have no idea how Oswald paid REA for the balance of the payment. He could have used a money order. Or maybe he again paid cash.

Right NOTHING showed REA gave a receipt to anyone for $21.22, was REA also using the Michaelis system of accounting?

No REA customer receipts, no REA ledger books for monies, no REA bank statements, no REA bank receipts.

It was easy for Michaelis to show a ledger entry for that day but none was offered. Again where is the accounting for the $19.95 (+1.27 COD) for the day Lee supposedly picked up the pistol? There is none. How do we know the whole thing was not done after the fact. Nothing you have is proof Lee received a weapon. What you have is EXCULPATORY evidence.

So you admit that Seaport took cash through the mail? You admit they could not show this transaction on their books?

There is nothing that ties this supposed $10 to Lee.

Below is link to a Seaport ad from 1960, interesting they show a line for CASH. Why did they stop using the ad with a line for cash David?

Also changed is the STATEMENT line, here they don't ask for a witness.

So David, things changed for Seaport:

They no longer added a line for cash.

They added a witness line.

http://www.nrvoutdoors.com/ENFIELD%20SNUB/ENFIELD%20SNUB.htm

When was the DL-28 receipt printed? By that I mean when did George Rose and Co / Seaport order these invoices?

Did they change invoices every time they changed ads? NO

They continued to use the same invoices even though they stopped taking cash through the mail.

Now how detailed was Michaelis in his book keeping?

Mr. BALL. Do you maintain a record of all sales of guns in a book?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; in this book here.

Mr. BALL. You have the book before you, do you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is a black, looseleaf notebook; looseleaf notebook with a black cover. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And you keep that in handwriting, or by typewriting?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwriting.

Mr. BALL. Do you keep a typewritten or handwritten record?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwritten.

So we see Michaelis kept a handwritten accounting, a ledger, showing gun sales.

Are you asking me to believe he, as a supervisor/office manager, did not take the same care with Seaports monies?

How much cash did Seaport receive that day David? How many Money Orders? How many checks?

Where is the accounting?

Same goes for REA!!

As Jim DiEugenio asked you: "where is the bank receipt as it was produced for the MC (rifle)? Did Belin learn his lesson there? It backfired on him that time so he just does not ask to see it this time."

Questions you avoid because you don't have answers...answers Belin knew he should avoid also.

Why did they not ask Vaughn? Would she have been able to show this was not a proper transaction thus was never called?

As DVP asked,

"What makes you think Belin was talking about Oswald's deposit payment of $10.00?"

What makes you think a business selling guns mail order couldn't show an accounting for a ten dollar transaction?

Ed

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DVP will crawl back with something.

Jim,

We have to thank David Joseph for spurring the conversation onward.

The more DVP struggles in this slip knot the tighter the noose, so I relish "his replies" (or whomever writes his material).

Ed

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Do you think that Seaport would not record the reciept of the COD deposit? This invoice is dated March 13... the $10 deposit was sent "in january"?

But Seaport certainly had not received the COD money from anyone connected with the Hidell order by MARCH 13, for Pete sake. The revolver wasn't even shipped until March 20.

Plus -- There's no proof the deposit was sent "in January". In fact, the BEST evidence on this (in my view) is the Seaport invoice below, which clearly indicates that they processed Oswald's mail-order coupon on MARCH 13TH, even though the coupon itself was dated January 27th.

Don't you think it's even remotely possible that Oswald simply filled out the coupon in January (for some reason) and then waited until he had saved enough money to buy BOTH the revolver and the rifle, and then mailed both the Klein's & Seaport coupons on the same day (March 12th)?

That scenario is quite believable and reasonable, IMO. And, as I said, the paperwork from BOTH Klein's and Seaport would seem to make my theory on this even more possible, and even probable, because BOTH the Klein's and Seaport invoices have "March 13" dates on them.

Also -- Why in the world would Seaport have had any need to save the envelope in which Oswald mailed his $10 cash deposit?

Now it's true that the microfilmed documents at Klein's do show the envelope for the rifle order (along with the order form on the same microfilm), but that doesn't mean that another company (Seaport Traders, Inc.) necessarily HAD to follow the exact same procedures as Klein's. Seaport DID save the order form. Why the need to save a torn-open envelope? In short, there was no real need to save that envelope.

And it's absolutely incredible that some CTers actually want to use the lack of an envelope to promote some strange theory that Oswald never sent in an order and $10 in cash to Seaport.

And why would there necessarily be any traceable record of a particular ten-dollar bill that a customer mailed to Seaport? Seaport probably received a lot of deposits in cash through the mail (even if they did prefer customers to send MO or checks). But I kinda doubt they would just REFUSE to fill anyone's order just because they sent in cash.

And when they received the cash, they simply deposited it in their bank account with other cash and checks and MOs they received that day. There would be no specific notation to the effect that "This $10 bill here came from A.J. Hidell's order", or "This $20 here was from William Montgomery in Houston". That's silly to think such records for CASH transactions would be kept.

Also:

Dale Myers fully explains the details of Oswald's revolver transaction, and the procedures that Seaport and REA took to establish that Oswald's revolver order had been processed, delivered, and paid for by the customer. And the "red copy" of the invoice, which had the COD remittance document attached to it, verifies that the money had been collected. And it's quite possible that Oswald merely paid CASH, once again, when he picked up the revolver.

Quoting Dale Myers:

"Once Oswald received the notification card at his P.O. Box, he simply took a bus back to the REA Express office -- presented the notification card, the balance due, and some form of identification -- and accepted delivery of the revolver.

"After REA Express had delivered the package to Oswald, the C.O.D. remittance document and the amount collected from Oswald, was forwarded to Seaport Traders. Once received, the C.O.D. remittance document was attached to the red copy of the invoice, indicating that the money had been collected and the package delivered. These documents were placed in the Seaport Trader files, where they were discovered by FBI agents on November 30, 1963.

"The paper trail created by Oswald's purchase of the .38 Smith & Wesson revolver under the name A.J. Hidell is clear and direct. The actions taken by Seaport Traders and REA Express in response to Oswald's order are consistent with each company’s rules and regulations at the time and serve as evidence that the order was processed and delivered as described.

"The fact that the revolver shipped to Oswald's P.O. Box was in his possession at the time of his arrest is further evidence that the transaction occurred as demonstrated.

"In conclusion, there can be no doubt that Oswald ordered and later took possession of the V510210 revolver."

-- Dale K. Myers; 1998

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html

MichaelisEx2.jpg

WaldmanExhibitNo7.jpg?t=1279170764

Edited by David Von Pein

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...and left an indent on one of the shells.

So what? Who cares?

Oswald's V510210 gun was obviously in perfect working order at approx. 1:14-1:15 PM when he plugged Officer Tippit four times with it.

But, as always, hard-nosed conspiracists always prefer to concentrate on meaningless chaff, instead of focusing on the wheat field that is Oswald's guilt.

Even if – and it is a HUGE "if" – any shells and/or bullets can be conclusively tied to that revolver, which they cannot, the ONLY reason to suppose that the gun "was obviously in perfect working order at approx. 1:14-1:15 PM" is because Oswald can't have gotten to 10th & Patton much sooner than that.

The fact of the matter is that the shooting took place several minutes earlier than that, at approximately 1:08. If you work your way backwards from the 1:16 citizen radio call (unquestionably – and now officially – by Temple F. "Tom" Bowley), including that by the time Bowley got there, a "crowd" had already formed after the shooting, it cannot have happened as late as some would like to believe it did.

To reach a 1:14-1:15 shooting time, one can only completely discount the "few minutes" that Bowley has told me more than once that he was there before he got on the radio, and discount his time estimate of 1:10 (according to his watch) that he got there and Helen Markham's estimate of "1:06 or 1:07" when she arrived at the corner and the fact that she had to get onto the 1:12 bus in order to get to work on time (she would have been late for that even before she'd even left her house if the 1:14-1:15 estimate is correct), or you've got to either eliminate Oswald's having been at his room or you've got to put him in a vehicle to get him to the Tippit murder scene by the time he quite clearly must have gotten there if he shot Tippit as late as this claim.

There is NO EVIDENCE to support a time that late other than the radio call and the presumption that Oswald was actually the shooter. If you're honest about the first instead of trying to get facts to fit the conclusion, then you can't accomplish the latter.

That might be a "wheat field of Oswald's guilt," but it was apparently being rotated that year.

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There's so much proof that Oswald murdered Tippit, it's mind-boggling. And it's the BEST kind of evidence too -- ballistics (and yes, the bullet shells are irrevocably tied to LHO's gun, and why you're saying otherwise is a huge mystery; but you couldn't be more wrong on that point, as confirmed by Nicol, Frazier, Killion, and Cunningham....and others from the HSCA too) .... plus the fact that Oswald still had the murder weapon in his OWN HANDS just 35 minutes after the murder .... plus MULTIPLE eyewitnesses who said it was OSWALD, not somebody else, who either killed Tippit or fled the scene immediately afterward.

Just stay in fantasy land on this, Duke. That's where you apparently feel most comfortable.

Edited by David Von Pein

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There's so much proof that Oswald murdered Tippit, it's mind-boggling. And it's the BEST kind of evidence too -- ballistics (and yes, the bullet shells are irrevocably tied to LHO's gun, and why you're saying otherwise is a huge mystery; but you couldn't be more wrong on that point, as confirmed by Nicol, Frazier, Killion, and Cunningham....and others from the HSCA too) .... plus the fact that Oswald still had the murder weapon in his OWN HANDS just 35 minutes after the murder .... plus MULTIPLE eyewitnesses who said it was OSWALD, not somebody else, who either killed Tippit or fled the scene immediately afterward.

Just stay in fantasy land on this, Duke. That's where you apparently feel most comfortable.

The problems I have with Lee Harvey Oswald being Tippit's killer are numerous, and I wish the Dallas DA would convene a grand jury to investigate the crime and see if there is anyone who can be brought to justice for the murder of Tippit and other related crimes, including the assassination of the President.

For starters, it is said that Oswald killed Kennedy, so he therefore also killed Tippit, but since it can be conclusively shown that Oswald was set up as the Patsy for the assassination and wasn't even on the Sixth Floor at the time of the shooting, maybe Oswald is innocent of the Tippit murder too.

To those who say that it was Oswald who killed Tippit, I ask them which Oswald? The Oswald who was framed for the assassination, the one who left a paper trail for ordering the weapons that he didn't pick up at the post office when he could have bought them at any pawn, gun shop or department store in Dallas without any record, or was it the Oswald who was seen in the car of Tippit's best friend near the scene of his murder?

Either way, both Oswalds are inextricably entwined with intelligence agencies and are connected to espionage networks that make whatever you believe happened at Dealey Plaza a covert intelligence operation, and not the work of a lone, deranged nut.

BK JFKcountercoup: Collins Radio Connections

Inextricable - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster ...

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inextricablein·ex·tri·ca·ble. adj \ˌi-nik-ˈstri-kə-bəl i-ˈnek stri-\. Definition of INEXTRICABLE. 1. : forming a maze or tangle from which it is impossible to get free. 2 ...

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The proof that Oswald picked up the revolver, regardless of where he picked it up, is the undeniable fact that Mr. Oswald had Revolver V510210 in his hands when he was arrested in the Texas Theater on 11/22/63.

Duh!

This is another great difficulty in terms of actually proving beyond a reasonable doubt since there is no certain chain of custody in the handling of whatever gun might've been taken from Oswald in the theater, to wit:

  • McDonald never saw - and never claimed to have seen - the gun that Oswald supposedly pulled from his trousers;
  • Det. Bob Carroll also did not see the gun he took from McDonald in the theater, having put it immediately in the small of his back and then, after getting to the squad car parked in front, having pulled it out and handed it to Sgt. Gerald Hill immediately and without examination;
  • Hill played with it (and even removed and replaced all the shells from it) when he took it from Carroll, before putting the gun in his pocket;
  • It apparently remained in Hill's possession after arriving at DPDHQ, but Hill absented himself from all the other officers and took it to the personnel office (where he was on TDY), then called the other officers and caused them to absent themselves from him again to go find McDonald.

All of this occurred before any of them initialled the weapon and ammunition that eventually found its way into evidence. It was handled - and manhandled - improperly from start to finish to the extent that Captain Westbrook, Hill's nominal supervisor, refused to have anything to do with it when he arrived in the Personnel office and he had to call Robbery & Homicide to come up to retrieve the now-"identified" weapon from Hill.

None of these men could have stated with absolute certainty that it was the weapon that they handled (and did not actually see) in the theater. The only thing that suggests that it is the same weapon is faith in the supposition that none of these men - or Hill in particular - would have done anything to "queer" or "plant" incriminating evidence.

What further clouds the identity of this weapon is the statement by Officer Hutson that he accompanied Oswald into one of the interrogation rooms upon arrival at DPDHQ "and I had his gun" when they entered that room. This oral statement under oath was not either questioned or clarified and must, by definition, be as trustworthy as any other statement made under oath about this incident.

More to the point, Hutson was the only one of the officers present in the theater who was able to state with certainty how many people were in the theater when the cops went inside because he alone had actually counted them (among other of his detailed observations), so his recollection that "I had his gun" cannot be brushed aside so very quickly.

If someone can do a better job of showing that a proper and certain chain of custody was maintained, have at it.

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[Deleted duplicate post.]

ALL THAT cause you cant find the $10? Really Dave?

Cause REA can't say HERE is the $21.22 and the $19.95 sent to Seaport?

Dave...

This guy - Alvarado, knows this story bout Oswald... give him a call.. 555.CIA.ASET

peace out

DJ

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