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Thomas Graves

"Tan Jacket Man" Secretively Hands Something to "Blue Coated Guy" in the Parking Lot

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Guest Tom Scully

Mark, your are correct, what could I have been thinking? This is obviously the most important, high potenital for a break through, thread in the history of this forum!

Every thread should be bumped at least 8 times, with no significant follow on details posted by the bumper, there are only a few thousand threads, what the heck does it matter?

Now...Let's get to it! All that is needed is the name of the man in the jacket, and the name of the back of the head guy the jacket guy passed an unidentified object to, and of course, a reliable I.D. of the object.

I'm going to pin this key thread until advocates and participants determine they all of something better to do with their time, say, go play in traffic, of for the next thirty days, whichever comes sooner.

BTW, doesn't anybody even want to solve this murder mystery, anytime soon?

.......

I'm back. Do I have to beg? There are nearly 10,000 page views here...its Seinfeld, a "show" about nothing.

You choose.... fritter away your time, your focus, on this type of topic, it amounts to infotainment, or....

work on higher odds plays. I've got less than 12 hours into this :

This garbage effort of a book, has the same inverse relationship to the information displayed in the quote box below it,

as this thread's topic has to what this forum is supposed to be devoted to. Consider, have you ever known John Simkin

to author a thread about unidentified people, based on an animated gif file or some other video snippet? I've cannot

recall that ever happening. Please use your time more constructively, please prioritize your focus. Consider what a complete

waste Peter Janney's book is, unless you think the CIA constructed all of the background of "assassin" William L. Mitchell,

or mayber they put me up to doing it? (BTW, I spent no money, never left my house, used only internet searches.....)

I talked to Lisa last night and she said she probably won't reply to Janney's pleas of outrage via the Spanish Inquisition. She said, words to the effect, my approach was cool and analytical, his was almost violently emotional, so what's the point? Obviously, it hit home with him.

Since I was named in the title and am named throughout--even though I wrote not a paragraph of the review--let me reply to a few points of the poor tortured victim of Torquemada/Lisa.

.................

7. We now come to Lt. Mitchell, the CIA hit man that Damore and Janney need so much to create the fantasy of a CIA elimination on the towpath. According to Holmes/Damore and Watson/Janney, Damore wrote a letter to a CIA assassin at a CIA safehouse. Now please sit down before you read what happened next. Sitting down? Good.

The hit man wrote back! Yessiree pardner. Now, in my part two, i will go over just how ridiculous this is. I mean it makes you wonder how much experience the two crack investigators have had with CIA safehouses. Either in person or in reading about them. They are called "safehouses" because they are secure and surveilled and enclosed. The idea that the "hit man" , at a safehouse, would reply to a journalist is so foreign to my experience that its kind of absurd. But this strand of Janney's gets even more nonsensical, and I will deal with it at length n Part 2. And the Fletcher Prouty as backing, is part of it. We wlil then see whose facts are more tenable.

8. He then goes on to try and defend his gallery of rogues who he uses as sources for the book: Damore, Leary, Morrow, Douglas, etc. He knows these guys all have serious problems in credibility. So he tries to innoculate them in advance. To the novice this may seem OK. To the experienced researcher its not. Because he never ever comes completely clean about them--that is to tell you how bad they really are. And in the case of Morrow, he cannot get to the original source anyway. But when you add this crew to Klein, Collier and Horowitz, Priscilla Johnson, Sy Hersh etc, well, that is quite a smelly pile of rubbish if you ask me. But that is what this book is like. And then he screams bloody murder for being criticized. Maybe he expected a Nobel Prize?

..................

This image is from Appendix 3 in Janney's book. Janney refers to it in his description of Damore calling his attorneyJames H Smith in April, 1993, claiming he had "cracked it" by locating Crump trial witness, William L Mitchell. This image is part of one of the six pages of notes Smith is said to have jotted down on his ever present legal pad as Damore related his findings over the telephone.

William L. Mitchell was FBI and an officer in every branch of the military at one time or another, and a father of 5 children.

Janney writes that what is displayed here informs us that Mitchell was 74 years old in April, 1993.:

Janney74yoMitchellApril1993Appendix3.jpg

In addition to the skeptical comments of Jim DiEugenio, please consider that Janney insists he believes the Damore sourced details that led to the discovery of an assassin using the alias William L Mitchell from mid october, 1964 to July 27, 1965, a mystery man who was able to convince police investigators, prosecutors, defense counsel, the trial judge, all 12 jurors, and journalists covering the investigation, arrest, and the trial, that a 2d Lieutenant at the Pentagon, age 45 in fall, 1964, had come forward to volunteer his

testimony. Why, amidst all the other questions arising in this farfetched scenario, would the CIA also offer up a 45 year old to impersonate a junior officer of a rank someone in their 20's would almost always achieve? Janney avoids any reference to witness Mitchell's age, attributing only defense attorney Roundtree's concern that the testimony of the "lean and fit" witness would be convincing.

The core premise of the book is a fairytale. What is real and fascinating is Janney's family background. In 1937, Janney's aunt, his mother's sister, Doris, married: ........

The Autodafé of Lisa Pease and James DiEugenio:

Tomas de Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition return in a new era of suppression

of freedom of thought and adherence to a rigid dogma – namely their own prejudices!

Lisa Pease’s six-page diatribe against me and my recent book Mary’s Mosaic is, at the very least, a marvel of subjective distortion and shoddy criticism, fueled by her own personal vendetta that someone dared not follow her as she, and her partner James DiEugenio, have attempted over the years to appoint themselves as the ultimate “guardians of truth” in all things Kennedy (see the following: http://www.ctka.net/...9;s_Mosaic.html ).

And as usual, Lisa Pease’s only fallback source in her vain attempts to substantiate anything she writes is James DiEugenio, whom she seems to always regard as unassailable. Together, nothing that these two write can ever be challenged or debated – without one of them launching some kind of personal diatribe against anyone who challenges it, establishing a different opinion. Indeed, during his last appearance on Len Osanic’s Black Ops Radio program (June 28, 2012), DiEugenio gushes over “Lisa Pease’s wonderful – and I really think it’s a really wonderful piece of work . . . because it’s done in her usual very intelligent, very elegant, very incisive kind of a style. And I’m going to be doing Part II to which I am actually working on right now . . .” We wait with bated breadth.

..... Therefore, the “Negro male” spotted by officer Sylvis, who successfully eluded capture by police, couldn’t have been the defendant Ray Crump. This isn’t rocket science, but for the challenged Lisa Pease, it’s too much to tolerate, given her desperation to find some way to discredit me, whereby she finally resorts to attacking my educational credentials.

In addition, Ms. Pease can’t even seem to fathom or consider how “Lt. William L. Mitchell,” a man who told police he was jogging on the towpath when he passed Mary Meyer – allegedly just before the murder took place – told police that a “Negro male” matching Wiggins’ description was following her in an effort to frame Ray Crump. “Mitchell” would then testify against Crump at the murder trial nine months later in July 1965 as part of the CIA’s assassination operation. It doesn’t seem to matter to Pease that “Mitchell” has never been able to be located since the trial, or that his known address during that time was documented as a “CIA safe house” by three separate former CIA employees. At the time of trial in July 1965, Mitchell told a reporter that he had since retired from the military and was now a mathematics instructor at Georgetown University – yet no record of his employment there could ever be located, nor was there ever any bona-fide military service record located for “Mitchell,” either in the Pentagon where he was listed in the directory at the time of the murder, or in the main military data base in St. Louis. This was thoroughly researched by the Peabody Award-winning journalist Roger Charles, as discussed in my book, a fact that Pease fails to mention in one of her many deliberate omissions, which also included Damore’s consultation with L. Fletcher Prouty (as documented by Damore’s attorney James H. Smith) to finally understand who “Mitchell” was, before Damore confronted him. Of course, Lisa Pease is entitled to whatever flawed point of view she wants to embrace, but she’s not entitled to her own set of facts.......

(This article is also posted on Lew Rockwell.com: http://lewrockwell.c...anney3.1.1.html )

The small set of details that demolish the speculation presented by Janney and Dovey Roundtree :

Annual report to the president

books.google.comCornell University. College of Engineering - 1961 - Snippet view

Spring Term only) Mr. William Mitchell (5th yr. B.M.E. Candidate. Fall Term only)

News and Notices - JStor

The Annals of Mathematical Statistics

Vol. 34, No. 3 (Sep., 1963), pp. 1133-1146

www.jstor.org/stable/2238500

Mitchell, William L., B.M.E., (Cornell University); Graduate Student, Operations Re- search, Harvard University; 70 Perkins Hall, Harvard University, Cambridge

New York mathematical society. List of members, constitution, by-laws

books.google.comAmerican Mathematical Society - 1964 - Snippet view

American Mathematical Society. MISARE ... AI Math., Computation Lab., Harvard Univ., Cambridge, Mass. ... MITCHELL, WILLIAM L. I Pentagon, OR Group, Systems Dept., USADSC, Washington, D. C. l500 Arlington Blvd., Apt. l022,

Combined membership list of the American Mathematical Society and ...

books.google.com American Mathematical Society, Mathematical Association of America, Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics - 1965 - Snippet view

...... MITCHELL, WILLIAM L. I Pentagon, OR Group, Systems Dept., USADSC, Washington, D. C. 1500 Arlington Blvd., Apt. 1022, Arlington, Va. MITCHELL,

Harvard alumni directory

books.google.com Harvard Alumni Directory (Office), Harvard Alumni Association, Harvard University - 1965 - Snippet view

22310. Ed Adm. g25-29 AM 26, PhD 29 MltcheU, WUliam Lockwood, 1500 Arlington Blvd. , Apt. 1022, Arlington, Va. 22209.

Directory of Computer Education and Research: Volume 3

books.google.com T. C. Hsiao - 1973 - 1800 pages

MITCHELL, WILLIAM L. - Assistant Professor of Business Administration

Department of Management Sciences School of Business and Economics CALIFORNIA

STATE UNIVERSITY, HAYWARD Hayward, California 94542 - July 25, 1939 - BME,

1962, Cornell University; MS, 1963, Harvard University; PhD, 1970, University

of California, Los Angeles - Operations Research - ORSA, TIMS, IMS, ACM,

SIAM, MAA - Visiting Research Associate, University of Stockholm, Summer

1971; Research Assistant, Operations Research Center, University of

California, Berkeley, 1966-70; 1st Lieutenant/Systems Analyst, USADATCOM.

U.S. Army, 1963-65.

Fullbright Fellow University of London, 1965-66

Directory Emeriti - California State University, East Bay

www20.csueastbay.edu/oaa/files/docs/DirectoryEmeriti.pdf

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View

California State University, Northridge. Emeritus, 2007. FAUST, JUDITH (1997), Librarian: A.B., 1968, College of William and Mary; M.L.S., 1971,. University of....

Directory of Emeritus Faculty

Professors .....

.......

MITCHELL, BILL (1969), Associate Professor of Business Administration: B.M.E., 1962, Cornell

University; M.S., 1963, Harvard University; Ph.D., 1970, University of California, Berkeley.

Emeritus, 1989

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Sean,

They are both standing with hands in pockets. Is there something else about the posture you notice?

The guy in Bronson to me, seems to have a looser fitting jacket, darker hair and a different head shape... but I don't want to go round and round with you on it. I'll leave it at this: your confidence it is the same person does make me less certain of my own position and anything I say about in future will be qualified accordingly.

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Mr. Scully...I believe that this thread is beginning to bear some fruit. IF, as it appears, the TJM is seen on the ground prior to the shooting, then that would virtually ELIMINATE him as the man in the brown jacket that Baker encountered on an upper floor of the TSBD...and therefore ELIMINATE him as a suspected shooter in the 6th floor window.

Now, I'm not sure WHY you are taking this thread so personally...comsidering how long the Fetzer/Cinque sideshow was allowed to go on, this thread is merely a shadow of that one. And I consider any information about folks actually ON SITE in Dallas on 11/22/63--especially ones that may eliminate a person from being a suspected shooter--would actually have some bearing on the JFK assination. When it's all said and done, this thread may NOT tell us who the shooter was; but it may tell us who the shooter WASN'T, and that in itself has some value...IMHO.

Maybe even more than whose grandfather was friends with whose best man at whose cousin's uncle's daughter's wedding 30 years prior to the assassination.

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I am interested as to who the long coat man in the background could be.

Does anyone know the temperature at the time of the JFK assassination?

Wearing a trench coat seems illogical to me unless things were significantly colder.

Someone referred to him above as a detective, but, if he was, he ostensibly wasn't a homicide detective because they wore their trademark white Stetsons (or so I have read).

FWIW, I think that the film captures a handoff (perhaps a rifle scope or magazine or a small handgun).

Christopher,

Gerda Dunkel over at JFK Assassination Forum was wondering last December if TJM's "Long Coat Man" might be Deputy Sheriff Clinton L."Lummy" Lewis.

--Tommy :sun

Edit: I think I've noticed others wearing the same kind of raincoat and acting in an (apparently) official capacity after the assassination. Could this be C.L."Lummy" Lewis with his back to the camera?

normal_LastScan21~0.jpg

Thanks a lot, Tom.

I wonder how many minutes after the assassination that this footage was shot.

It seems odd that a deputy sheriff would wear a top coat and not a thermal jacket.

I was 7 when the assassination took place and, while I remember being sent home from school early and crying about it, I don't remember how various elements of law enforcement dressed at that time, so trying to assume that a sheriff's deputy would wear the same attire in 1963 that one would wear today may well prove to be a faulty assumption.

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Hi Greg,

Bernice is right--looks like Tan Jacket Man was a street spectator and so cannot have been the man seen by Amos Euins & encountered by Marrion Baker.

Gerda Dunckel spotted our guy in Bronson a while back:

TanJacketManbronson.jpg

Sean

Bronson Large

Click on image to view full size.

Bronson_Crop_3.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger

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I am interested as to who the long coat man in the background could be.

Does anyone know the temperature at the time of the JFK assassination?

Wearing a trench coat seems illogical to me unless things were significantly colder.

Someone referred to him above as a detective, but, if he was, he ostensibly wasn't a homicide detective because they wore their trademark white Stetsons (or so I have read).

FWIW, I think that the film captures a handoff (perhaps a rifle scope or magazine or a small handgun).

Christopher,

Gerda Dunkel over at JFK Assassination Forum was wondering last December if TJM's "Long Coat Man" might be Deputy Sheriff Clinton L."Lummy" Lewis.

--Tommy :sun

Edit: I think I've noticed others wearing the same kind of raincoat and acting in an (apparently) official capacity after the assassination. Could this be C.L."Lummy" Lewis with his back to the camera?

normal_LastScan21~0.jpg

Thanks a lot, Tom.

I wonder how many minutes after the assassination that this footage was shot.

It seems odd that a deputy sheriff would wear a top coat and not a thermal jacket.

I was 7 when the assassination took place and, while I remember being sent home from school early and crying about it, I don't remember how various elements of law enforcement dressed at that time, so trying to assume that a sheriff's deputy would wear the same attire in 1963 that one would wear today may well prove to be a faulty assumption.

Christopher,

I noticed two guys in this clip (below) wearing long raincoats in the parking lot. They walk towards each other and seem to be interacting towards the end. The guy on the right enters the clip very late from the right.

In the background is a guy who takes a step towards the crowd and then steps back, turns to his right and starts walking away just like the Long Coat Man does in the TJM part of the Hughes film, but this guy isn't wearing a long rain coat. Maybe he's the guy who, a little bit later, walks close to the Rambler station wagon (in the background of the TJM section of the Hughes film).

--Tommy :sun

By the way, I wonder who the guy in the center of the frame with the movie camera is? He's wearing a brown suit and has his back to Hughes' camera most of the time.

Edit: Gary Mack just sent me a PM saying he thinks the guy with the movie camera is Don Cook of television station KTVT, Dallas.

hughesparklotgrodencl7wzqr.gif

http://www.jfkassass...?album=8&pos=16

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Sean,

They are both standing with hands in pockets. Is there something else about the posture you notice?

The guy in Bronson to me, seems to have a looser fitting jacket, darker hair and a different head shape... but I don't want to go round and round with you on it. I'll leave it at this: your confidence it is the same person does make me less certain of my own position and anything I say about in future will be qualified accordingly.

Greg,

I guess it's a certain hunching of the shoulders in Hughes & Bronson alike that catches my eye (easier to 'see' than put into words...).

As you can imagine, this certainly isn't an ID I support with anything like a happy heart--really thought the man in Hughes was our TSBD guy!

But let's keep scouring the photographic record on the off-chance the Bell/Bronson guy's face shows up. Only that way will we know for 100% whether Gerda's ID is correct.

Cheers for keeping an open mind,

Sean

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DPD cop holding a shotgun

I believe Skaggs can just be seen on the far left, in the Mentesana frame

Click on image to view full Size.

Skaggs_Mentesana.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger

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DPD cop holding a shotgun

I believe Skaggs can just be seen on the far left, in the Mentesana frame

Click on image to view full Size.

Skaggs_Mentesana.jpg

DPD cop holding a shotgun

I believe Skaggs can just be seen on the far left, in the Mentesana frame

Click on image to view full Size.

Skaggs_Mentesana.jpg

Robin,

Fantastic!

Now, the question is: Who is the guy with his back to the camera wearing a hat and a raincoat in the Mentesana frame? His face is also partially visible on the right edge of the Scaggs frame.

Or a more general question: After the assassination, which law enforcement types in the parking lot and/or Dealey Plaza were wearing a raincoat over their suit and a fedora hat? Deputy Sheriffs? Sheriff Plainclothes Detectives? DPD Homocide Detectives?

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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After watching the Hughes film that Robin posted, I'm curious who that was wearing the white Stetson, seen from 1:04 to 1:11, walking against the crowd, moving AWAY from Dealy Plaza after the shooting. His walk seems purposeful, but not hurried. [if this has been addressed elsewhere, please direct me there; I'm not intending to hijack this thread.]

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Tommy if we could find a better picture of Larry Jones we could do a comparison

With Tan man.apparently Mr Truly knew tan man did he also know Larry Jones?.

Did Baker feel the need to pull his gun on Tan Man or

Was Truly expecting him?.

Ian,

Was Truly expecting "Tan Man" to be where he was (on the third or fourth floor) at that time?

Probably. It's also possible that he confused "Tan Man" for LHO.

--Tommy ;sun

But how could that be Tommy as he had just seen "Oswald" on the second floor?.

I know they "missed the sixth" but that's a

Big leap Tommy!.

Ian,

I agree that another picture of Larry Jones would be extremely useful. I'm not 100% convinced it was him because the facial similarity is not as strong when TJM turns his head, and also, others whose opinions I respect aren't convinced.

Yet there is enough similarity(dark eyes, light spot on top of head, slender build, age etc), added to Jones' mystery phone call just prior to or just after the assassination placing him in Dallas when he had allegedly left, and Weissman's weird reaction to that call, to give me pause to continue considering the possibility.

FWIW, The 2nd floor encounter, imo, and that of a growing number of others, was a fiction. Baker initially said 3rd or 4th floor and his description was much closer to that of TJM than it was to Oswald - and that's despite having Oswald in the same room when he was giving that description. On top of that, the 6th floor witnesses all match TJM better than Oswald.

I note that someone at the other forum where this has been discussed, stated that TJM appears to do a military type turn. Does anyone else see it that way? If true, I think it may be significant.

Here is the exact quote from Jonathan Nolan: "...TJM peels off out of the crowd, with almost a heel turn like in the army, before leaving pretty rapidly..." [emphasis mine]

I'd really like to get opinions on this.

To me he was the shooter from the 6th floor. Duncan Macrae used later photographic technology to get the face of the man in that window. And then someone found that man in the Hughes film. To me that's 100% proof. I know thousands of people will disagree with me.

In the gif the man in Blue looks to me like he has a blue plaid hat on.

Kathy C

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Both hands are not is his pockets.

You're right. I stand corrected. Good catch.

It's virtually impossible to tell what his left hand is doing in the full-speed clip.

But in this clip, I don't see an object in his left hand. I see his fingers moving, though.

The coolest part of this clip, though, is watching the man in the background (in the raincoat/trenchcoat). Set his moves to some "Saturday Night Fever" music, and you're all set.

smile.gif

hughescarparkfixedx2han.gif

Or "Murder on the dance floor" Maybe?.

I believe the man in Blue has a dark blue plaid hat on. This is why his head looks weird. Also as he turns a bit toward TJM his face looks caucasian.

My other problem is Duncan Macrae. Remember he found what the TSBD shooter looked like from a photo? An advanced technique. Is it a coincidence that Tan Jacket Man had the same bald spot and looked exactly like Duncan's picture. It is my understanding that Duncan got the image first and then someone looked at the Hughes film -- and there he was! Why doesn't anyone address this?

Kathy C

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