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Chris Bennett

How did the shooters get in and out of the TSBD?

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David.

Been asking that one for years David.If Truly is to be believed (twice) He Identified two strangers(to Baker)

Oswald in the lunchroom and a man in a Tan Jacket on the 3rd/4th floor. with "he works here"so we know that the tan jacket man was an employee well known to Truly .Baker does not mention Drawing his weapon on the tan man nor does Truly mention a weapon . Speculation:perhaps he recognised him before he turned back towards them and offered the information before Baker needed to ask!:I think this tan man would be in the list of employees .So when the "wheres Oswald?" shout came about Truly could have offered the information that he had seen him in the lunchroom earlier ,Or is this where he stepped away while the authorities spoke?.If Jack Dougherty said "something caught my eye when Oswald came in to work

that morning" We would be arguing that point I believed JD was used in other ways up on the 6th floor and that is why it is so difficult to find out any background on him .I find it hard to believe the early critics missed this one ,after all we found the name of the manhole cover FBI agent who did not want to be found .

How hard can it be? Said the discoverer of diamonds.

Ian

Ian,

some untangling needed here.

Truly only ever admitted to clearing an employee on the 2nd floor.

My own opinion is that this was an amalgamation of two separate encounters.

One being Baker's 3rd/4th floor man (I go for 4th based on things he said in testimony - i.e. specifically that they only had to go up one flight to where the elevator was - and it was on the 5th) - the other being at the entrance per the earliest newspaper accounts: these two events joined to hide the encounter with the real sniper / lookout / SN diversion guy and the fact that Oswald was cleared to leave down on the first floor and then relocating the whole thing to the second floor because of Mrs Reid's statement.

Most likely timeline: in domino room having lunch (cheese sandwich and apple) - sees Jarman and Shorty re-enter. Is oblivious to assassination. Goes upstairs for coke. Encounters Reid and starts to hear all the commotion breaking loose. Goes back down and tries to go outside (maybe just to join the crowd and see what was happening, maybe to leave). Police at door ask him "to step aside" until his details are taken (per newspaper account). At some point, Truly or Shelley clear him as an employee and he is told he can leave after giving name and address. Possibly sensing something up, or just by force of habit, he gives the police his name as Harvey Lee Oswald and a slight variation on a previous address. That then ends up on top of the Revill employee list - a list which was indeed compiled of names and addresses obtain from employees before they were allowed to leave. Oswald was simply the first to go...

Take it or leave it for whatever you see, or don't see, in that scenario.

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Interesting about the 4th floor. I believe ATF agent Frank Ellsworth was involved in a search about 130 pm and said a Manlicher Carcano was found either on the 4th or 5th floor, not the same floor as the shells.

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Interesting about the 4th floor. I believe ATF agent Frank Ellsworth was involved in a search about 130 pm and said a Manlicher Carcano was found either on the 4th or 5th floor, not the same floor as the shells.

Hi Nick..

I believe you meant to say THE MC, not "A" MC....

and when you add the number of 5th floor references from Sawyer... and what he and 2 others did between 12:34 and 12:37...

the 5th floor gets more interesting..

Former AFT agent Frank Ellsworth, who participated in a *second* search of

the book depository conducted after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963,

according to a Secret Service document, confirms that the Mannlicher-Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the fourth or fifth

floor of the building, "not on the same floor as the cartridges." He

adds: "I remember we talked about it, and figured that he must have run

out from the stairwell and dropped it as he was running downstairs."

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Interesting about the 4th floor. I believe ATF agent Frank Ellsworth was involved in a search about 130 pm and said a Manlicher Carcano was found either on the 4th or 5th floor, not the same floor as the shells.

Hi Nick..

I believe you meant to say THE MC, not "A" MC....

and when you add the number of 5th floor references from Sawyer... and what he and 2 others did between 12:34 and 12:37...

the 5th floor gets more interesting..

Former AFT agent Frank Ellsworth, who participated in a *second* search of

the book depository conducted after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963,

according to a Secret Service document, confirms that the Mannlicher-Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the fourth or fifth

floor of the building, "not on the same floor as the cartridges." He

adds: "I remember we talked about it, and figured that he must have run

out from the stairwell and dropped it as he was running downstairs."

Yes, David. Thanks for the emphasis on that. I had not thought about the 2 rifle issue for some time. If true, how ironic that THE Manlicher was found AND Roger Craig's Mauser, with the word Mauser stamped on it, was also found. No need to switch rifles..one just disappears after a few days

Nick

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Three men on the floor below heard the shells hitting the floor above, and one of them had dust/debris land on his head.

That musta have been one helluva heavy shell to hit the floor hard enough to cause dust to fall on someone's head a floor below.

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Three men on the floor below heard the shells hitting the floor above, and one of them had dust/debris land on his head.

They were so convinced that the shots came from above them that they ran to the west end of the building. ( 3 H 204 )

Edited by Gil Jesus

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Three men on the floor below heard the shells hitting the floor above, and one of them had dust/debris land on his head.

That musta have been one helluva heavy shell to hit the floor hard enough to cause dust to fall on someone's head a floor below.

I always thought the debris seceded because of the sonic/air pressure of the TWO (sic)shots. (The first BANG they located down the street)

KK

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When Serg, Harkness - minutes after the shooting - came to the back door of the SBDB, there was a bunch of men in plain clothes there, claiming, they were Secret Service.

I think those false SS men were securing the escape-route for the SBDB shooting team. (The guys Carr saw getting into the Rambler on the east side of the SBDB building...heading north, against THE one way street called HUSTON... a guy named WORELL saw another man leaving the back of the SBDB...

Edited by Karl Kinaski

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When Serg, Harkness - minutes after the shooting - came to the back door of the SBDB, there was a bunch of men in plain clothes there, claiming, they were Secret Service.

I think those false SS men were securing the escape-route for the SBDB shooting team. (The guys Carr saw getting into the Rambler on the east side of the SBDB building...heading north, against THE one way street called HUSTON... a guy named WORELL saw another man leaving the back of the SBDB...

Goes behind TSBD: at 12:35/6 (Did he go up with Sawyer?)

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male who was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not.

DPD investigation at its finest... :blink:

Harkness sure gets all the importand jobs from Sawyer, huh....

Mr. BELIN - It had already been sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS - There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front.

Mr. BELIN - Were they stopping people from going in and out?

Mr. HARKNESS - I don't know.

Mr. BELIN - You don't know?

Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them.

Mr. BELIN - Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the building to make sure it was.

Mr. BELIN - Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that time?

Mr. HARKNESS - Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that.

Mr. BELIN - Then you went around to the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there?

Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

Mr. BELIN - Then did you say around the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS - I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer---helped get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS - Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station.

Mr. BELIN - You mean some transients?

Mr. HARKNESS - Tramps and hoboes.

Mr. BELIN - That were on the freight car?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS - That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there.

We had several officers working in that area.

Mr. BELIN - Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in. Who was actually ARRESTED?

Mr. BELIN - Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Were all those questioned?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.

Mr. BELIN - Any guns of any kind found?

Mr. HARKNESS - Not to my knowledge.

Finally... are we really going to even bother with our three black men on the 5th anymore? Supposedly a high powered rifle explodes 10-15 feet from their heads and one claims to be able to hear, AFTER THAT, the clink of a shell and the working of a bolt... yet as Lee mentions... nothing of a person or persons moving...

The most common sense questions wreck havoc on the official story every time...

And to bring this full circle.. Agent Sorrels MAY have encountered the same black man at the back door as Harkness did 20 minutes before, so this is STILL before 1pm

Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.

Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.

Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.

And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?"

He said, "No, sir."

"Did you see anyone leave the back way?"

"No, sir."

Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.

I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager and they pointed to Mr. Truly.

I identified myself to Mr. Truly.

Mr. STERN - Just a minute.

Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not.

Mr. STERN - There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?

Mr. SORRELS - I did not see one; no, sir.

Mr. STERN - And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.

As amazed as Mr Stern here sounds.... that's were this line of questioning ends.

As I've mentioned before... WHOEVER WANTED TO could have easily gotten into and out of the TSBD, if shots were fired from there, very easily.

DJ

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When Serg, Harkness - minutes after the shooting - came to the back door of the SBDB, there was a bunch of men in plain clothes there, claiming, they were Secret Service.

I think those false SS men were securing the escape-route for the SBDB shooting team. (The guys Carr saw getting into the Rambler on the east side of the SBDB building...heading north, against THE one way street called HUSTON... a guy named WORELL saw another man leaving the back of the SBDB...

...

Mr. HARKNESS - Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that.

Mr. BELIN - Then you went around to the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there?

Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

Mr. BELIN - Then did you say around the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there.

...

DJ

Seems like Luke Mooney's testimony needs to be fitted in here. One of the first members of the Dallas Police to enter the TSBD (after Baker) was Luke Mooney. Mooney tried to use the West Elevator at the back of the building. When it wouldn't work, He went over to the stairs and started to go up. On the way up, he encountered two men in plain clothes, who he assumed were Police. His WC testimony below (excerpt):

...

Mr. MOONEY. I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the

staircase.

Mr. BALL. Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY. It was a push button affair the best I can remember. I

got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the

second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there,

the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator.

So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I

went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down,

plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down

the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor,

I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what

floor I was on.

Mr. BALL. You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY. I was alone at that time.

... [end quote of WC testimony]

Ball never asks Mooney to ID these two men, or why Mooney felt they were deputy sheriffs. The phrase in his testimony " I believe they were deputy sheriffs" falls short of definitively identifying individuals that he knew beyond doubt were deputy sheriffs. Why did Mooney not ask these men for ID? To my knowledge, these men have never given testimony or been identified.

Given the timing of the sightings, it seems plausible that the two men Mooney saw coming down the stairs may have been the same "Secret Service" men that Harkness saw at the back of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

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Excellent Richard... thanks... I hadn't noticed that before... yet I am puzzled by something in his report...

First off he IS a Deputy Sheriff... and did NOT recognize other deputy sheriffs...

Based on this report... and the fact that Fritz does not return to the TSBD until 12:58....

How can he be one of the first to the 6th floor and the first one to find the shells almost 30 minutes after the fact??

and if correct... Williams' chicken was actually in the Sniper's next abd not a few windows down... Was Williams the black man Rowland sees at 12:15?

and then who would have been the white jacketed man with glasses, or the man in the SW window....

between Sawyer's man on the elevator at 12:35... and these men coming down the stairs (remember that Sawyer brings uniformed officers with him to the 4th floor)

It's easy to see how ANYONE could have easily slipped in and out of that building

:blink:

ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.

Date: November 23 1963

I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Victory to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dockat the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their offive. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with theese women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor, and Officers Webster and Victory went up to the 7th floor. I was the only person on the 6th floor when I searched it and was reasonably sure that there was no one else on this floor as I searched it and then criss-crossed it, seeing only stacks of cartons of books. I was at that time also checking for open windows and fire escapes. I found where someone had been using a skill saw in laying some flooring in one corner of this floor and I then went to the 7th floor and was assisting in searching it out and crawled into the attic opening and decided it was too dark and came down to order flash lights. I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by

cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken. The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor, I hung my head out of the half opened window and signaled to Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz who were outside the building and advised them to send up the Crime Lab Officers at once that I had located the area from which the shots had been fired. At this time, Officers Webstr, Victory, and McCurley came over to this spot and we guarded this spot until Crime Lab Officers got upstairs within a matter of a few minutes. We then turned this area over to Captain Fritz and his officers for processing.

At this time I continued to search this 6th floor along with many other officers and within a few minutes, I heard Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone holler out that he had found the rifle near the staircase between some rows of cartons.

We continued to search the building for a suspect.

When Serg, Harkness - minutes after the shooting - came to the back door of the SBDB, there was a bunch of men in plain clothes there, claiming, they were Secret Service.

I think those false SS men were securing the escape-route for the SBDB shooting team. (The guys Carr saw getting into the Rambler on the east side of the SBDB building...heading north, against THE one way street called HUSTON... a guy named WORELL saw another man leaving the back of the SBDB...

...

Mr. HARKNESS - Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that.

Mr. BELIN - Then you went around to the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there?

Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

Mr. BELIN - Then did you say around the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there.

...

DJ

Seems like Luke Mooney's testimony needs to be fitted in here. One of the first members of the Dallas Police to enter the TSBD (after Baker) was Luke Mooney. Mooney tried to use the West Elevator at the back of the building. When it wouldn't work, He went over to the stairs and started to go up. On the way up, he encountered two men in plain clothes, who he assumed were Police. His WC testimony below (excerpt):

...

Mr. MOONEY. I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the

staircase.

Mr. BALL. Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY. It was a push button affair the best I can remember. I

got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the

second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there,

the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator.

So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I

went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down,

plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down

the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor,

I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what

floor I was on.

Mr. BALL. You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY. I was alone at that time.

... [end quote of WC testimony]

Ball never asks Mooney to ID these two men, or why Mooney felt they were deputy sheriffs. The phrase in his testimony " I believe they were deputy sheriffs" falls short of definitively identifying individuals that he knew beyond doubt were deputy sheriffs. Why did Mooney not ask these men for ID? To my knowledge, these men have never given testimony or been identified.

Given the timing of the sightings, it seems plausible that the two men Mooney saw coming down the stairs may have been the same "Secret Service" men that Harkness saw at the back of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

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Thanks, Richard, for unearthing a bit of Mooney's testimony that managed to have slipped by most of us. That could definitely be significant.

This thread represents the Ed Forum at its finest. Lots of reasonable analysis and speculation, with heretofore largely ignored aspects of this case subjected to fresh, intriguing perspectives.

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Excellent Richard... thanks... I hadn't noticed that before... yet I am puzzled by something in his report...

First off he IS a Deputy Sheriff... and did NOT recognize other deputy sheriffs...

Based on this report... and the fact that Fritz does not return to the TSBD until 12:58....

How can he be one of the first to the 6th floor and the first one to find the shells almost 30 minutes after the fact??

and if correct... Williams' chicken was actually in the Sniper's next abd not a few windows down... Was Williams the black man Rowland sees at 12:15?

and then who would have been the white jacketed man with glasses, or the man in the SW window....

between Sawyer's man on the elevator at 12:35... and these men coming down the stairs (remember that Sawyer brings uniformed officers with him to the 4th floor)

It's easy to see how ANYONE could have easily slipped in and out of that building

:blink:

Regarding the timeline of finding of the shells by the SE 6th floor window: We know Baker was the first officer to get to the 6th floor, but he only gives it a quick look to see if there are any people there.

Mooney must have arrived on the 6th floor very soon after Baker left. I would estimate roughly 5-6 minutes after the last shot ( ran from Houston and Main to the Parking area ... 30 seconds? Spent " a couple of minutes there" ... 2 minutes? Received word to go to the TSBD and ran over there ... another 30 seconds?). Throw in a minute or two to take the elevator to the 2nd floor and then the stairs up (passing the two plain clothes men he assumes are police officers, between the 2nd and 3rd floors) to the 6th floor ... Mooney should be there for his first look at approximately 12:35 to 12:37. He criss-crosses the 6th floor and decides there is no one there, and then goes to the seventh floor. He does not say how much time he spends on the 7th floor, which includes crawling into a dark cubby hole. At this point, he decides to go back down to the 6th floor and discovers the empty shells, chicken, soda and box configuration by the SE Window.

Mooney's report on 11/23/63 states, "... Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken." The chicken was in the Snipers Lair on one of the boxes used as a prop for the rifle.

His WC testimony 4 months later (3/25/64): ...

Senator Cooper. How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and

the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box

that had the crease in it?

Mr. Mooney. I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that.

He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one

step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.

Senator Cooper. You mean if someone bad been standing near the box with

the crease in it?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

The location of the chicken moves 5' to the West. Apparently, the WC did not want the sniper leaving greasy chicken fingerprints on the rifle.

It is unfortunate that neither Harkness or Mooney gives a description of the men on the stairs or the SS guys by the back door. Had they done so, we would be able to compare with the several witness descriptions of the men on the 6th floor seen by Brennan, Carr, Crawford, Edwards, Euins, Fischer, Henderson and Rowland. Not to mention individuals seen climbing into station wagons.

Bonnie Ray Williams testified he was on the 6th floor until 12:15-12:20, certainly makes him a possibility for the black man seen by Euins and Rowland, although Rowland describes an older looking man. The half-eaten chicken, the lunch remnants left on the boxes, give the impression that William's lunch was prematurely ended when the men on the 6th floor arrived.

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