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Chris Bennett

How did the shooters get in and out of the TSBD?

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Here's a quick view of the sheet... the pink is 12:30....

The more you guys discuss this the greater my desire to get back to it...

Can include anything you like in a cell as well... links, photos, etc... and it's completely searchable..

Now, if I just had another 24 hours in each day......

Cheers

DJ

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My comments in blue

...

12:51:

"Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.[/b]

Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.

Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.

And I said to him, ""Did you see anyone run out the back?""

He said, ""No, sir.""

""Did you see anyone leave the back way?""

""No, sir.""

Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.

Enters TSBD from rear and is directed to Truly"

Truly's timeline from Lumpkin to Fritz is VERY interesting... check Truly's testimony for WHEN he tells Fritz and what is occurring

btw - I created a spreadsheet - time across the top, people along the side... filling in the boxes as to what happens when so we can trace a person OR time and see all that happens... Need some serious time to fill in the boxes with what's already known... labor of love yet nowhere near complete

This is great stuff... thanks Richard

DJ

...

David and Tommy,

Will be updating the Timeline as I go through your suggestions and additions. Keep it coming. I have also found some additional interesting sources. I am trying to get an updated timeline as my available time permits. Next version will hopefully have references attached.

David: it sounds like your Spreadsheet project is very close to what we are looking at on the timeline.

Bill: You said, "It would be totally cool if someone would come up with a program that allows us to merge all of these chronologies together, though keeping their integrity, possibly by using a different color or font for each one."

That would be an incredible tool, and it is exactly what digital databases are designed to do. I know that everything involved in this Timeline (for example) has been researched and discussed by many others over the years. There are volumes of data out there. The task would be to funnel all the good stuff into a central repository. One of the problems is that so much of the resource data is in PDF format. That adds an additional layer of complexity in translating the pdf data into a text format that would importable into a database. Lots of manual work if you know of a dedicated group of people with sufficient time available.

smile.gif

So much research, so little time.

Let's just start with the TSBD ins and outs, ups and downs to see what we come up with.

BK

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My comments in blue

David, ( and Tommy, Bill and anyone else who is interested)

I have put together a rough draft of a timeline of persons of interest in the TSBD just before and after the shots were fired. I am posting it here in the hopes of getting additional info from members who may be able to fill in some of the blanks, or make corrections. Ideally, I would like to be able to list and time-stamp witness sightings of unidentified (or known) persons who may have been involved in the plot.

Rough draft below. (*Note: I am aware of some of the conflicting statements)

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD.

12:05 –12:10: Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?)(2)

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes

before 12:15 (?)

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the 1st floor Lunch Room

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was dark) Which window? At the far other end of the building from "LHO's so-called Sniper's Nest?

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one)

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor with Rifle. (w/m, early 30's, slender, 165-75,light clothing) Which window? "LHO's" so-called Sniper's Nest?

12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald on 1st floor near front of TSBD (? conflict w 12:12 sighting)

Was this from Summers' interview... cause I've read where 12:25 was related to Arnold... yet I think that Reid was a much more likely candidate to have seen Oswald on the 2nd floor when she left to go outside...

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, w hat, glasses, tan sport coat in 2ndwindow from East corner, 7th floor. (1)

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor East corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat)

Geneva Hine, the only employee in the Depository’s second floor offices, observes the electrical power and telephone system go dead.

"In the motorcade’s Vice Presidential limousine, Lyndon Johnson is later described as having his

ear up against a small walkie-talkie held over the back seat, listening to the device which is turned low.

(This description comes from Sen. Ralph Yarborough who is riding with Johnson.)"

12:29 Fischer and Edwards see w/m in 6th floor east corner window

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30 Amos Euins sees Black man with rifle in 6th floor corner window (later changed to white man)

12:30 Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor corner window Which corner window, East or West?

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet from West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears shot.

12:30: Dillard Picture shows Jarman, Norman and Williams in 5th floor windows. They say they run to West Window after shots. Which windows, exactly?

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one).

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) (4)

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (accomplices? may be Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams)

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side).

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. (WC testimony)

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting.

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand.

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon Walk away from a back TSBD door?

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit)

12:33: Officer Barnett moves from Back to guard Front entrance of TSBD

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston.

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens.

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 5thfloor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Before entering the TSBD, Mooney told a "citizen" to guard the big back gates, which he apparently did. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. On the first floor, two women (Victoria Adams and a coworker?) rush up to Mooney as he's getting on the elevator and ask him to take them up to the second floor. Mooney takes himself and the two women, in the elevator up to 2nd floor, Mooney and the two women enter an office and he takes a quick look around and then goes back to the elevator to continue going to the upper floors. The elevator doesn't work now because the power is off. He switches to the stairs and encounters "two men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. TWO men?

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Mooney said he ascended the stairs alone. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective"(?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor. Mooney said he ascended the stairs from the 2nd floor to the 6th floor, briefly looked around the 6th floor, then ascended the stairs to the 7th floor where he encountered plainclothes sheriff's deputies Webster and Vickery. They start searching a dark

12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. Do we know which window?

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th floor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor.

12:34: Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4thfloor*

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most."

he goes up with two officers and comes down alone....

Goes behind TSBD: Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male (negro) who was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not. Could this "colored male" be the same "citizen" Mooney asked/told to guard the big back double "gates", according to his Warren Commission testimony?

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD

12:35: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "SS Agents".

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD

12:37: Sawyer returns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post.

Undetermined time: Mooney, Vickery, and Webster leave 7th floor, go down to 6th floor; Mooney discovers SE window box configuration, empty shells, chicken bones and soda. Shortly before 1:00 (?), Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz. Was the "soda" a Dr Pepper?

12:43-12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 Winchester Rifle

12:44: Roger Craig hears whistle. Sees Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt runs down slope and gets inside. Craig runs over to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit")

Undetermined time: Fritz arrives at TSBD (sometime before 1:00 ?)

12:51:

"Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.[/b]

Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.

Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.

And I said to him, ""Did you see anyone run out the back?""

He said, ""No, sir.""

""Did you see anyone leave the back way?""

""No, sir.""

Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building. Could this "colored man" be the same black guy Haygood had earlier encountered at the rear of the TSBD?

Enters TSBD from rear and is directed to Truly"

Truly's timeline from Lumpkin to Fritz is VERY interesting... check Truly's testimony for WHEN he tells Fritz and what is occurring

btw - I created a spreadsheet - time across the top, people along the side... filling in the boxes as to what happens when so we can trace a person OR time and see all that happens... Need some serious time to fill in the boxes with what's already known... labor of love yet nowhere near complete

This is great stuff... thanks Richard

DJ

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle between boxes

I TRIED to hilight my comments and questions in green. Sorry if I've messed up your comments, questions, colors, guys!

--Tommy :)

bump

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Here's a quick view of the sheet... the pink is 12:30....

The more you guys discuss this the greater my desire to get back to it...

Can include anything you like in a cell as well... links, photos, etc... and it's completely searchable..

Now, if I just had another 24 hours in each day......

Cheers

DJ

David,

Checked out your spreadsheet. Looks good. We are on the same page regarding time-stamping and locating individuals in and around the TSBD just before and just after shots were fired.

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Hey there Tom...

Some good questions..

Here is CE477 that Brennan marked... seems Mr. B here is about as positive of the window as he was in identifying Oswald that day....

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are you referring to there?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a couple of times.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window.

Mr. BELIN. You mean because some windows are open below it?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. The way the building is built, it seems like this is more or less a long window with a divider in the middle.

ce477.jpg

and regarding that black man at the back of the TSBD... I'd wager it was the same guy... but there is no real way to tell...

Rowland?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0488b.htm

Mr. ROWLAND - We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle, This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.

We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?

Mr. ROWLAND - This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.

Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.

It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. SPECTER - All right.

Cheers Tom,

DJ

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12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Before entering the TSBD, Mooney told a "citizen" to guard the big back gates, which he apparently did. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. On the first floor, two women (Victoria Adams and a coworker?) rush up to Mooney as he's getting on the elevator and ask him to take them up to the second floor. Mooney takes himself and the two women, in the elevator up to 2nd floor, Mooney and the two women enter an office and he takes a quick look around and then goes back to the elevator to continue going to the upper floors. The elevator doesn't work now because the power is off. He switches to the stairs and encounters "two men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. TWO men?

...

Goes behind TSBD: Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male (negro) who was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not. Could this "colored male" be the same "citizen" Mooney asked/told to guard the big back double "gates", according to his Warren Commission testimony?

...

Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building. Could this "colored man" be the same black guy Haygood had earlier encountered at the rear of the TSBD?

...

I TRIED to hilight my comments and questions in green. Sorry if I've messed up your comments, questions, colors, guys!

--Tommy :)

bump

Tommy,

Mooney said he encountered Two men coming down the stairs.

Regarding the Black guy guarding the rear gate, it would have been great if someone would have asked him his name or described him.

I hope to devote some time on this in the next few days.

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Thanks Richard... it just starts to grow hair when you think of all the people that can run down the left side...

I think Manchester's book will be valuable in placing events into context as well...

I'd also go as far as color coding the cells for the source of evidence... testimony, affidavit, CSS Forms, etc....

I think if we concentrate on just the assassination events... and expand from there... your list is a great place to start to highlight the key events for the time

and I will add them to my spreadsheet asap... as well as staying within the 11am-2pm while starting with 12:30...

I firmly believe this type of representation of the assassination will expose the conflicts very easily..

My favorite being Truly, Lumpkin and Fritz... Where the WC is trying to convince Truly he did not speak to Fritz until after the rifle was found...

Cheers... PM me if you'd like to colloborate on this... as Bill has said, there are already a number of good timelines, yet many attempt to throw in everything

rather than concentrate on specific assasiantion events

DJ

Here's a quick view of the sheet... the pink is 12:30....

The more you guys discuss this the greater my desire to get back to it...

Can include anything you like in a cell as well... links, photos, etc... and it's completely searchable..

Now, if I just had another 24 hours in each day......

Cheers

DJ

David,

Checked out your spreadsheet. Looks good. We are on the same page regarding time-stamping and locating individuals in and around the TSBD just before and just after shots were fired.

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Richard...

re Mooney, I believe others posted this as well.... he said SOME, not TWO

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

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Here's a quick view of the sheet... the pink is 12:30....

The more you guys discuss this the greater my desire to get back to it...

Can include anything you like in a cell as well... links, photos, etc... and it's completely searchable..

Now, if I just had another 24 hours in each day......

Cheers

DJ

David,

Just an idea, but if you were to put it on Google Docs, you could make it easy for others to collaborate on it if that is your intention. Of course, you can control who can view and/or edit it.

Best,

Chris

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Richard...

re Mooney, I believe others posted this as well.... he said SOME, not TWO

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Good catch David.

I will have to check my notes and see where and when I got the notion that Mooney met two officers coming down.

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Who is to say that the shooters weren't all ready there? There was people laying floor in the building so one or more could have been part of the assassination.

Or it could have been another employee working in the building.

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Dave, Tommy, Bill, and all:

Here is the updated TSBD timeline, with some additions and corrections, and references provided. I am still hoping to get more feedback and info.

I have included questions and observations at the bottom of this post.

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD. 1

12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) 2

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 3

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room 4

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window) 5

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) 6

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) 7

12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1st floor near front of TSBD 8

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two 9

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan sport coat in 2nd window from East corner, 6th floor. 10

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) 11

12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin 12

12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6th and shots from 4 to 3.) 13

12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. 14

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) 15

12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor SE corner window 16

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. 17

12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. 18

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one). 19

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) 20

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams) 21

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). 22

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. 21

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. 22

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. 23

12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. 24

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away fromthe TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon 10

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) 25

12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . 22

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. 26

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. 27

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4th or 5th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing 28

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. 29

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an"unknown DPD Detective" (?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor 30

12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. 31

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th flloor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor. 29

12:34: Inspector Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4th floor 32

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD 33

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD 34

12:36– 12:37: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "some Secret Service Agents".35

12:37: Sawyer retrurns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. 32

12:40 – 12:45: Dep. Craig hears whistle. Sees light green Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt, runs down slope and gets inside. The Driver of the vehicle was husky latin, dark wavy hair, tan windbreaker jacket. Craig runs over to report this to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") 24

12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 (Winchester Rifle on Channel 2) 36

12:50 – 12:55: SSAForest Sorrels returns from Parkland Hospital to the rear entrance of the TSBD and enters the building with no one checking his ID, the first genuine SS Agent to arrive on the scene. 37

12:58: Captain Fritz arrives at front entrance of TSBD 38

12:58: Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz, who is standing in front of TSBD (After leaving the 7th floor,Mooney, Vickery, and Webster went down to 6th floor, where Mooney discovered SE corner window "sniper lair", empty shells, chicken remnants and soda.. 39

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle they idenitfy as a 7.65 Mauser, concealed between boxes on the 6th floor 40

References:

1. Eddie Piper Dallas Sheriff Affidavit of 11/23/63; also WC Testimony

2. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol. III, pp 169-173 (left 6th floor at 12:20; was up there for 15 minutes)

3. CD5:41 Archives from Mary Ferrell Timeline

4. Anthony Summers 1978 interview with Carolyn Arnold/ Jim Marrs, Crossfire p. 49

5. Arnold Rowland, interviewed by Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford before the Warren Commission (10th March, 1964)

6. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol.III – Page 173, March 24, 1964; http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page173.php

7. Howard Brennan Dallas Sheriff statement: November 22, 1963. (Description). Howard Brennan FBI Report: January 7,1964. (Gave 12:18 as time of sighting)

8. Arnold's 26 Nov 1963 statement is published by Weisberg (1967) p. 210, with discussion on pp. 74-75.The original handwritten statement says 12:25. When retyped by the FBI the time was changed to 12:15 (Guth & Wrone 1980, p. xxxii).
 This is cited by Don Thomas in Rewriting History:Bugliosi Parses the Testimony, http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony

9. Ruby Henderson FBI statement of 12/6/63. Saw men on 6th floor after ambulance had departed.

10. Richard Randolph Carr: http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf, p. 8

11. http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf

12. Robert Edwards WC Testimony on April 9. 1964, Vol VI, pp. 203- http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page203.php

13. Ronald Fischer Dallas Sheriff's Statement: November 22, 1963. 19H475; FBI Report: December 2,1963. CD205

14. Geneva Hines WC Testimony, 4/7/64 http://www.aarclibra...df/WH6_Hine.pdf

15. James Underwood WC Deposition,4/1/64, Vol. VI, p. 170, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page168.php

16. Howard Brennan Sheriff Statement: http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2823-001.gif

17. Jack Daugherty WC testimony: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php

18. Dillard photo. Regarding Jarman: Mike Regan says Gary Mack told him he examined the negatives which confirmed Jarman in the 4th window from the SE Corner. http://educationforu...opic=4624&st=45 post #50.

19. Vicky Adams Warren Commission Testimony, 4/7/64

20. The Elevator Escape Theory by Richard Gilbride, http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html,pp 21-22

21. Officer Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III pp.247-263

22. from Comparison of Dillard and Powell photos, 6HSCA 110-115

23. Mrs. Robert Reid WC Testimony, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page274.php

24. Roger Craig, When They Kill A President, 1, http://www.ratical.o.../JFK/WTKaP.html

25. (Officer Baker Affidavit), http://jfk.ci.dallas...04/0426-001.gif

26. James Worrell WC Testimony, Vol. II, p. 196, http://www.jfk-assas...ol2/page196.php

27. Jack Dougherty WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p 380, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php

28. Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 258-259 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page258.php

29. Luke Mooney WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 283-284 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page283.php

30. Harry Weatherford, Dallas Sheriff Supplementary Investigation Report, http://mcadams.posc....ny/weatherf.htm

31. Lillian Mooneyham, FBI Report: January 10, 1964, 24H531

32. Ins. Sawyer WC Testimony, Vol VI, pp 318-320, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page319.php

33. Baker WC Testimony Vol. III, p 262 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page262.php (Baker took total of 15 minutes, spent about 10 minutes on roof)

34. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 310 http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page310.php

35. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 312, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page312.php

36. DPD Description of Suspect broadcast; Mary Ferrell Chronologies Vol 4 Nov 22 1963 pg 172, Tape #1 gives 12:37-12:45; JFK Assassination Chronology 22 Nov 1963 pg 49 gives 12:45 as time; http://www.terra.es/...rios/cintas.htmgives 12:45

37. SSA Forest Sorrels, Vol VII, p. 347-348,WC testimony, http://www.jfk-assas...ol7/page347.php

38. Captain Fritz, WC Testimony, Vol IV, p.204 http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page204.php

39. Mooney signals Fritz, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page284.php, Fritz arrived and was in frontof TSBD at 12:58, then went inside according to his WC testimony, 37

40. Dep. Eugene Boone, WC testimony, Vol 6, pp 204-205. http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page205.php

Other Related Reading:

"The Elevator Escape Theory" by Richard Gilbride, http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html

Greg Parker Website; http://reopenkennedy...-cop-encounters

"The Man in the Dark Sports Coat" by William Weston http://www.manuscrip...PQ/sports~1.htm

Duke Lane thread on Lancer forum : http://www.jfklancer...g_id=82512

Don Thomas , "Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony" http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony

"Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses, HSCA Staff Report", http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf

"A Comprehensive Review of Reclaiming History", by James DiEugenio

Questions and observations:

1. Electrical Power Events: Geneva Hine's phone system lights go off, just before12:30. Was this a power outage or just no calls at that time?; Truly and Baker are unable to get an elevator down from the 5th floor less than a minute after the shots. Sandra Styles said she and Vicky Adams tried thepassenger elevator in front, but when it did not work, they went to the backstairs. The West elevator has power when Mooney gets on the 1st floor,then loses power on the 2nd floor, 12:33-12:36. Who cut power to elevator at that precise moment? Select Elevator circuits and possiblyt he phone system circuit were reported off, but I have seen no report of all power to the TSBD being off, which would have happened if the Main Circuit breaker was thrown. The 3 elevators would have been on their own dedicated circuits, as would the phone system. The evidence supports the possibility that selected circuits may have been turned on/off at various times just before and after 12:30. This rules out random fuse failure (or circuit breakers being tripped) and supports the notion of manipulation of the power circuits. Was the Fuse/Breaker box located in the basement of the TSBD?

2. Why is there no exchange of information with Mooney when he is passing the men he believes might be DPD officers on the stairs? They would have been the very first respondents on the scene. If you were Mooney, wouldn't you at least ask them a few questions … like Had they seen a man with a rifle roaming around on an upper floor? And why were they were leaving the scene so soon?

3. There are three general descriptions of unknown men seen on the upper floors, in some cases with rifles, just before and at the time of the shooting:

First man: a younger white man who was slender.

Second man: another white man who may have been older, heavier, and wearing a tan jacket or coat and possibly glasses.

Third man: a dark complected man who may have been Latin/Mexican/Negro.

4. Secret Service men were reported on the back entrance dock and at the front entrance within minutes of the shots, and well before Forrest Sorrels was the first actual SS agent to return to Dealey Plaza/ TSBD.

5. Unidentified men who were thought to be police officers:

A. "Some" plain clothes officers seen by Officer Mooney as he ascends the NW stairs from the 2nd floor

B. Weatherford searches the 1st floor with an unknown DPD detective

6. Unidentified Civilians:

A. Man seen in front elevator by Sawyer

B. Two men seen by rear elevator seen by Baker (may be Lovelady and Shelley)

7. Individuals seen leaving the scene:

A. Man seen by Worrel

B. Man seen by Carr

C. Man seen by Craig

D. Woman in car arrested by Craig.

(edited for spacing and syntax)

Edited by Richard Hocking

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Dave, Tommy, Bill, and all:

Here is the updated TSBD timeline, with some additions and corrections, and references provided. I am still hoping to get more feedback and info.

I have included questions and observations at the bottom of this post.

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD. 1

12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) 2

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 3

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room 4

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window) 5

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) 6

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) 7

12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1st floor near front of TSBD 8

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two 9

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan sport coat in 2nd window from East corner, 6th floor. 10

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) 11

12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin 12

12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6th and shots from 4 to 3.) 13

12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. 14

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) 15

12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor SE corner window 16

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. 17

12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. 18

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one). 19

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) 20

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams) 21

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). 22

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. 21

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. 22

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. 23

12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. 24

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away fromthe TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon 10

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) 25

12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . 22

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. 26

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. 27

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4th or 5th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing 28

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. 29

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an"unknown DPD Detective" (?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor 30

12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. 31

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th flloor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor. 29

12:34: Inspector Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4th floor 32

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD 33

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD 34

12:36– 12:37: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "some Secret Service Agents".35

12:37: Sawyer retrurns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. 32

12:40 – 12:45: Dep. Craig hears whistle. Sees light green Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt, runs down slope and gets inside. The Driver of the vehicle was husky latin, dark wavy hair, tan windbreaker jacket. Craig runs over to report this to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") 24

12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 (Winchester Rifle on Channel 2) 36

12:50 – 12:55: SSAForest Sorrels returns from Parkland Hospital to the rear entrance of the TSBD and enters the building with no one checking his ID, the first genuine SS Agent to arrive on the scene. 37

12:58: Captain Fritz arrives at front entrance of TSBD 38

12:58: Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz, who is standing in front of TSBD (After leaving the 7th floor,Mooney, Vickery, and Webster went down to 6th floor, where Mooney discovered SE corner window "sniper lair", empty shells, chicken remnants and soda.. 39

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle they idenitfy as a 7.65 Mauser, concealed between boxes on the 6th floor 40

References:

1. Eddie Piper Dallas Sheriff Affidavit of 11/23/63; also WC Testimony

2. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol. III, pp 169-173 (left 6th floor at 12:20; was up there for 15 minutes)

3. CD5:41 Archives from Mary Ferrell Timeline

4. Anthony Summers 1978 interview with Carolyn Arnold/ Jim Marrs, Crossfire p. 49

5. Arnold Rowland, interviewed by Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford before the Warren Commission (10th March, 1964)

6. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol.III – Page 173, March 24, 1964; http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page173.php

7. Howard Brennan Dallas Sheriff statement: November 22, 1963. (Description). Howard Brennan FBI Report: January 7,1964. (Gave 12:18 as time of sighting)

8. Arnold's 26 Nov 1963 statement is published by Weisberg (1967) p. 210, with discussion on pp. 74-75.The original handwritten statement says 12:25. When retyped by the FBI the time was changed to 12:15 (Guth & Wrone 1980, p. xxxii).
 This is cited by Don Thomas in Rewriting History:Bugliosi Parses the Testimony, http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony

9. Ruby Henderson FBI statement of 12/6/63. Saw men on 6th floor after ambulance had departed.

10. Richard Randolph Carr: http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf, p. 8

11. http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf

12. Robert Edwards WC Testimony on April 9. 1964, Vol VI, pp. 203- http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page203.php

13. Ronald Fischer Dallas Sheriff's Statement: November 22, 1963. 19H475; FBI Report: December 2,1963. CD205

14. Geneva Hines WC Testimony, 4/7/64 http://www.aarclibra...df/WH6_Hine.pdf

15. James Underwood WC Deposition,4/1/64, Vol. VI, p. 170, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page168.php

16. Howard Brennan Sheriff Statement: http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2823-001.gif

17. Jack Daugherty WC testimony: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php

18. Dillard photo. Regarding Jarman: Mike Regan says Gary Mack told him he examined the negatives which confirmed Jarman in the 4th window from the SE Corner. http://educationforu...opic=4624&st=45 post #50.

19. Vicky Adams Warren Commission Testimony, 4/7/64

20. The Elevator Escape Theory by Richard Gilbride, http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html,pp 21-22

21. Officer Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III pp.247-263

22. from Comparison of Dillard and Powell photos, 6HSCA 110-115

23. Mrs. Robert Reid WC Testimony, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page274.php

24. Roger Craig, When They Kill A President, 1, http://www.ratical.o.../JFK/WTKaP.html

25. (Officer Baker Affidavit), http://jfk.ci.dallas...04/0426-001.gif

26. James Worrell WC Testimony, Vol. II, p. 196, http://www.jfk-assas...ol2/page196.php

27. Jack Dougherty WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p 380, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php

28. Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 258-259 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page258.php

29. Luke Mooney WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 283-284 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page283.php

30. Harry Weatherford, Dallas Sheriff Supplementary Investigation Report, http://mcadams.posc....ny/weatherf.htm

31. Lillian Mooneyham, FBI Report: January 10, 1964, 24H531

32. Ins. Sawyer WC Testimony, Vol VI, pp 318-320, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page319.php

33. Baker WC Testimony Vol. III, p 262 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page262.php (Baker took total of 15 minutes, spent about 10 minutes on roof)

34. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 310 http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page310.php

35. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 312, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page312.php

36. DPD Description of Suspect broadcast; Mary Ferrell Chronologies Vol 4 Nov 22 1963 pg 172, Tape #1 gives 12:37-12:45; JFK Assassination Chronology 22 Nov 1963 pg 49 gives 12:45 as time; http://www.terra.es/...rios/cintas.htmgives 12:45

37. SSA Forest Sorrels, Vol VII, p. 347-348,WC testimony, http://www.jfk-assas...ol7/page347.php

38. Captain Fritz, WC Testimony, Vol IV, p.204 http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page204.php

39. Mooney signals Fritz, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page284.php, Fritz arrived and was in frontof TSBD at 12:58, then went inside according to his WC testimony, 37

40. Dep. Eugene Boone, WC testimony, Vol 6, pp 204-205. http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page205.php

Other Related Reading:

"The Elevator Escape Theory" by Richard Gilbride, http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html

Greg Parker Website; http://reopenkennedy...-cop-encounters

"The Man in the Dark Sports Coat" by William Weston http://www.manuscrip...PQ/sports~1.htm

Duke Lane thread on Lancer forum : http://www.jfklancer...g_id=82512

Don Thomas , "Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony" http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony

"Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses, HSCA Staff Report", http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf

"A Comprehensive Review of Reclaiming History", by James DiEugenio

Questions and observations:

1. Electrical Power Events: Geneva Hine's phone system lights go off, just before12:30. Was this a power outage or just no calls at that time?; Truly and Baker are unable to get an elevator down from the 5th floor less than a minute after the shots. Sandra Styles said she and Vicky Adams tried thepassenger elevator in front, but when it did not work, they went to the backstairs. The West elevator has power when Mooney gets on the 1st floor,then loses power on the 2nd floor, 12:33-12:36. Who cut power to elevator at that precise moment? Select Elevator circuits and possiblyt he phone system circuit were reported off, but I have seen no report of all power to the TSBD being off, which would have happened if the Main Circuit breaker was thrown. The 3 elevators would have been on their own dedicated circuits, as would the phone system. The evidence supports the possibility that selected circuits may have been turned on/off at various times just before and after 12:30. This rules out random fuse failure (or circuit breakers being tripped) and supports the notion of manipulation of the power circuits. Was the Fuse/Breaker box located in the basement of the TSBD?

2. Why is there no exchange of information with Mooney when he is passing the men he believes might be DPD officers on the stairs? They would have been the very first respondents on the scene. If you were Mooney, wouldn't you at least ask them a few questions … like Had they seen a man with a rifle roaming around on an upper floor? And why were they were leaving the scene so soon?

3. There are three general descriptions of unknown men seen on the upper floors, in some cases with rifles, just before and at the time of the shooting:

First man: a younger white man who was slender.

Second man: another white man who may have been older, heavier, and wearing a tan jacket or coat and possibly glasses.

Third man: a dark complected man who may have been Latin/Mexican/Negro.

4. Secret Service men were reported on the back entrance dock and at the front entrance within minutes of the shots, and well before Forrest Sorrels was the first actual SS agent to return to Dealey Plaza/ TSBD.

5. Unidentified men who were thought to be police officers:

A. "Some" plain clothes officers seen by Officer Mooney as he ascends the NW stairs from the 2nd floor

B. Weatherford searches the 1st floor with an unknown DPD detective

6. Unidentified Civilians:

A. Man seen in front elevator by Sawyer

B. Two men seen by rear elevator seen by Baker (may be Lovelady and Shelley)

7. Individuals seen leaving the scene:

A. Man seen by Worrel

B. Man seen by Carr

C. Man seen by Craig

D. Woman in car arrested by Craig.

(edited for spacing and syntax)

BUMP - Thanks for that TimeLine Richard

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Dave, Tommy, Bill, and all:

Here is the updated TSBD timeline, with some additions and corrections, and references provided. I am still hoping to get more feedback and info.

I have included questions and observations at the bottom of this post.

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD. 1

12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) 2

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 3

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room 4

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window) 5

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) 6

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) 7

12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1st floor near front of TSBD 8

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two 9

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan sport coat in 2nd window from East corner, 6th floor. 10

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) 11

12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin 12

12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6th and shots from 4 to 3.) 13

12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. 14

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) 15

12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor SE corner window 16

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. 17

12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. 18

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one). 19

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) 20

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams) 21

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). 22

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. 21

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. 22

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. 23

12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. 24

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away fromthe TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon 10

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) 25

12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . 22

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. 26

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. 27

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4th or 5th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing 28

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. 29

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an"unknown DPD Detective" (?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor 30

12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. 31

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th flloor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor. 29

12:34: Inspector Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4th floor 32

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD 33

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD 34

12:36– 12:37: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "some Secret Service Agents".35

12:37: Sawyer retrurns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. 32

12:40 – 12:45: Dep. Craig hears whistle. Sees light green Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt, runs down slope and gets inside. The Driver of the vehicle was husky latin, dark wavy hair, tan windbreaker jacket. Craig runs over to report this to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") 24

12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 (Winchester Rifle on Channel 2) 36

12:50 – 12:55: SSAForest Sorrels returns from Parkland Hospital to the rear entrance of the TSBD and enters the building with no one checking his ID, the first genuine SS Agent to arrive on the scene. 37

12:58: Captain Fritz arrives at front entrance of TSBD 38

12:58: Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz, who is standing in front of TSBD (After leaving the 7th floor,Mooney, Vickery, and Webster went down to 6th floor, where Mooney discovered SE corner window "sniper lair", empty shells, chicken remnants and soda.. 39

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle they idenitfy as a 7.65 Mauser, concealed between boxes on the 6th floor 40

References:

1. Eddie Piper Dallas Sheriff Affidavit of 11/23/63; also WC Testimony

2. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol. III, pp 169-173 (left 6th floor at 12:20; was up there for 15 minutes)

3. CD5:41 Archives from Mary Ferrell Timeline

4. Anthony Summers 1978 interview with Carolyn Arnold/ Jim Marrs, Crossfire p. 49

5. Arnold Rowland, interviewed by Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford before the Warren Commission (10th March, 1964)

6. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol.III – Page 173, March 24, 1964; http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page173.php

7. Howard Brennan Dallas Sheriff statement: November 22, 1963. (Description). Howard Brennan FBI Report: January 7,1964. (Gave 12:18 as time of sighting)

8. Arnold's 26 Nov 1963 statement is published by Weisberg (1967) p. 210, with discussion on pp. 74-75.The original handwritten statement says 12:25. When retyped by the FBI the time was changed to 12:15 (Guth & Wrone 1980, p. xxxii).
 This is cited by Don Thomas in Rewriting History:Bugliosi Parses the Testimony, http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony

9. Ruby Henderson FBI statement of 12/6/63. Saw men on 6th floor after ambulance had departed.

10. Richard Randolph Carr: http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf, p. 8

11. http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf

12. Robert Edwards WC Testimony on April 9. 1964, Vol VI, pp. 203- http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page203.php

13. Ronald Fischer Dallas Sheriff's Statement: November 22, 1963. 19H475; FBI Report: December 2,1963. CD205

14. Geneva Hines WC Testimony, 4/7/64 http://www.aarclibra...df/WH6_Hine.pdf

15. James Underwood WC Deposition,4/1/64, Vol. VI, p. 170, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page168.php

16. Howard Brennan Sheriff Statement: http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2823-001.gif

17. Jack Daugherty WC testimony: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php

18. Dillard photo. Regarding Jarman: Mike Regan says Gary Mack told him he examined the negatives which confirmed Jarman in the 4th window from the SE Corner. http://educationforu...opic=4624&st=45 post #50.

19. Vicky Adams Warren Commission Testimony, 4/7/64

20. The Elevator Escape Theory by Richard Gilbride, http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html,pp 21-22

21. Officer Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III pp.247-263

22. from Comparison of Dillard and Powell photos, 6HSCA 110-115

23. Mrs. Robert Reid WC Testimony, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page274.php

24. Roger Craig, When They Kill A President, 1, http://www.ratical.o.../JFK/WTKaP.html

25. (Officer Baker Affidavit), http://jfk.ci.dallas...04/0426-001.gif

26. James Worrell WC Testimony, Vol. II, p. 196, http://www.jfk-assas...ol2/page196.php

27. Jack Dougherty WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p 380, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php

28. Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 258-259 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page258.php

29. Luke Mooney WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 283-284 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page283.php

30. Harry Weatherford, Dallas Sheriff Supplementary Investigation Report, http://mcadams.posc....ny/weatherf.htm

31. Lillian Mooneyham, FBI Report: January 10, 1964, 24H531

32. Ins. Sawyer WC Testimony, Vol VI, pp 318-320, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page319.php

33. Baker WC Testimony Vol. III, p 262 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page262.php (Baker took total of 15 minutes, spent about 10 minutes on roof)

34. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 310 http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page310.php

35. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 312, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page312.php

36. DPD Description of Suspect broadcast; Mary Ferrell Chronologies Vol 4 Nov 22 1963 pg 172, Tape #1 gives 12:37-12:45; JFK Assassination Chronology 22 Nov 1963 pg 49 gives 12:45 as time; http://www.terra.es/...rios/cintas.htmgives 12:45

37. SSA Forest Sorrels, Vol VII, p. 347-348,WC testimony, http://www.jfk-assas...ol7/page347.php

38. Captain Fritz, WC Testimony, Vol IV, p.204 http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page204.php

39. Mooney signals Fritz, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page284.php, Fritz arrived and was in frontof TSBD at 12:58, then went inside according to his WC testimony, 37

40. Dep. Eugene Boone, WC testimony, Vol 6, pp 204-205. http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page205.php

Other Related Reading:

"The Elevator Escape Theory" by Richard Gilbride, http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html

Greg Parker Website; http://reopenkennedy...-cop-encounters

"The Man in the Dark Sports Coat" by William Weston http://www.manuscrip...PQ/sports~1.htm

Duke Lane thread on Lancer forum : http://www.jfklancer...g_id=82512

Don Thomas , "Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony" http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony

"Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses, HSCA Staff Report", http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf

"A Comprehensive Review of Reclaiming History", by James DiEugenio

Questions and observations:

1. Electrical Power Events: Geneva Hine's phone system lights go off, just before12:30. Was this a power outage or just no calls at that time?; Truly and Baker are unable to get an elevator down from the 5th floor less than a minute after the shots. Sandra Styles said she and Vicky Adams tried thepassenger elevator in front, but when it did not work, they went to the backstairs. The West elevator has power when Mooney gets on the 1st floor,then loses power on the 2nd floor, 12:33-12:36. Who cut power to elevator at that precise moment? Select Elevator circuits and possiblyt he phone system circuit were reported off, but I have seen no report of all power to the TSBD being off, which would have happened if the Main Circuit breaker was thrown. The 3 elevators would have been on their own dedicated circuits, as would the phone system. The evidence supports the possibility that selected circuits may have been turned on/off at various times just before and after 12:30. This rules out random fuse failure (or circuit breakers being tripped) and supports the notion of manipulation of the power circuits. Was the Fuse/Breaker box located in the basement of the TSBD?

2. Why is there no exchange of information with Mooney when he is passing the men he believes might be DPD officers on the stairs? They would have been the very first respondents on the scene. If you were Mooney, wouldn't you at least ask them a few questions … like Had they seen a man with a rifle roaming around on an upper floor? And why were they were leaving the scene so soon?

3. There are three general descriptions of unknown men seen on the upper floors, in some cases with rifles, just before and at the time of the shooting:

First man: a younger white man who was slender.

Second man: another white man who may have been older, heavier, and wearing a tan jacket or coat and possibly glasses.

Third man: a dark complected man who may have been Latin/Mexican/Negro.

4. Secret Service men were reported on the back entrance dock and at the front entrance within minutes of the shots, and well before Forrest Sorrels was the first actual SS agent to return to Dealey Plaza/ TSBD.

5. Unidentified men who were thought to be police officers:

A. "Some" plain clothes officers seen by Officer Mooney as he ascends the NW stairs from the 2nd floor

B. Weatherford searches the 1st floor with an unknown DPD detective

6. Unidentified Civilians:

A. Man seen in front elevator by Sawyer

B. Two men seen by rear elevator seen by Baker (may be Lovelady and Shelley)

7. Individuals seen leaving the scene:

A. Man seen by Worrel

B. Man seen by Carr

C. Man seen by Craig

D. Woman in car arrested by Craig.

(edited for spacing and syntax)

BUMP - Thanks for that TimeLine Richard

For sure Bill.

It is still a work in progress.

I should also note that the many of the events in the Timeline are based on shots being fired at 12:30.

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