David Josephs Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hopefully this has not been beaten to death... I was looking to corroborate that it's JFK sitting up in z456+ to see his position later in the ride to Parkland and found this with an insert of a much better resolution image of the hand/foot.... Looks to me as if JFK has fallen to his left allowing his right hand to be in this position... Has this been confirmed as his hand? thanks DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 That IS is hand there... but what is in front of it closer to the camera? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Clint Hill's coat over JFK's head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Clint Hill's coat over JFK's head? I believe Hill is still wearing his coat... he only mentions taking it off at the hospital.... but you'd have to agree that is his hand... which dispells whatever strange position JFK would have to be in (or Hill's leg for that matter) for that to be a shoe... DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Clint Hill's coat over JFK's head? I believe Hill is still wearing his coat... he only mentions taking it off at the hospital.... but you'd have to agree that is his hand... which dispells whatever strange position JFK would have to be in (or Hill's leg for that matter) for that to be a shoe... DJ I'm assuming you're aware that this has been beaten to death, on this forum. I pointed out that the shape as published in the paper had been re-touched to look more like a foot, and sparks flew. It was one of the most active threads in the forum's history. Things really heated up when Jack White thought maybe it was JFK's hand, and I thought he might be onto something. I just couldn't buy that it was Hill's right foot. One forum member said he'd tried to replicate Hill's position in his own car, but could not. Another said he was gonna have pictures taken of him replicating Hill's positon, and then disappeared for quite awhile. This popped up again on Duncan's forum recently, and someone offered that the reason it didn't look like Hill's right foot was because it wasn't. It was his left foot. This actually made some sense, and reflects my current thinking. The lower part of the shape appears to droop over the side of the limo, which makes little sense if it was JFK's jacket, IMO. Here is my slide on this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Delete - Pat beat me to it. I hadn't noticed that David had three crops of one picture up. Does the Skaggs photo in Pat's post above correspond to the left lean that we see JFK straighten up from after the break in the Towner film? Is that the Houston-Elm corner crowd we see in the BG? Remember, we don't see JFK lean over in Towner - just straighten up from leaning. Edited January 12, 2012 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Thanks Pat... With what you;ve shown me, I am convinced it is his Hand and not a foot and whatever is in front of it I cannot tell, it does look like a jacket though... why would they want to hide the fact that was his HAND? Clint Hill's coat over JFK's head? I believe Hill is still wearing his coat... he only mentions taking it off at the hospital.... but you'd have to agree that is his hand... which dispells whatever strange position JFK would have to be in (or Hill's leg for that matter) for that to be a shoe... DJ I'm assuming you're aware that this has been beaten to death, on this forum. I pointed out that the shape as published in the paper had been re-touched to look more like a foot, and sparks flew. It was one of the most active threads in the forum's history. Things really heated up when Jack White thought maybe it was JFK's hand, and I thought he might be onto something. I just couldn't buy that it was Hill's right foot. One forum member said he'd tried to replicate Hill's position in his own car, but could not. Another said he was gonna have pictures taken of him replicating Hill's positon, and then disappeared for quite awhile. This popped up again on Duncan's forum recently, and someone offered that the reason it didn't look like Hill's right foot was because it wasn't. It was his left foot. This actually made some sense, and reflects my current thinking. The lower part of the shape appears to droop over the side of the limo, which makes little sense if it was JFK's jacket, IMO. Here is my slide on this: Edited January 12, 2012 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Delete - Pat beat me to it. I hadn't noticed that David had three crops of one picture up. Does the Skaggs photo in Pat's post above correspond to the left lean that we see JFK straighten up from after the break in the Towner film? Is that the Houston-Elm corner crowd we see in the BG? Remember, we don't see JFK lean over in Towner - just straighten up from leaning. The Skaggs photo was taken just as the limo turned onto Houston from Main. For a time I believed the seat in the photo supported that it was JFK's hand in the Miller photo, but changed my mind after noticing that the shape in Miller extends down from the edge of the limo, when the seat does not. Edited January 12, 2012 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Thanks Pat... With what you;ve shown me, I am convinced it is his Hand and not a foot and whatever is in front of it I cannot tell, it does look like a jacket though... why would they want to hide the fact that was his HAND? Clint Hill's coat over JFK's head? I believe Hill is still wearing his coat... he only mentions taking it off at the hospital.... but you'd have to agree that is his hand... which dispells whatever strange position JFK would have to be in (or Hill's leg for that matter) for that to be a shoe... DJ I'm assuming you're aware that this has been beaten to death, on this forum. I pointed out that the shape as published in the paper had been re-touched to look more like a foot, and sparks flew. It was one of the most active threads in the forum's history. Things really heated up when Jack White thought maybe it was JFK's hand, and I thought he might be onto something. I just couldn't buy that it was Hill's right foot. One forum member said he'd tried to replicate Hill's position in his own car, but could not. Another said he was gonna have pictures taken of him replicating Hill's positon, and then disappeared for quite awhile. This popped up again on Duncan's forum recently, and someone offered that the reason it didn't look like Hill's right foot was because it wasn't. It was his left foot. This actually made some sense, and reflects my current thinking. The lower part of the shape appears to droop over the side of the limo, which makes little sense if it was JFK's jacket, IMO. Here is my slide on this: The photo was sold around the world with the claim it showed JFK's foot. The photo is even in the WC documents, in a secret service report, in which this claim was repeated. It was decades, as I recall, before they started claiming it showed Hill's foot. The un-retouched version in The Saturday Evening Post, IMO, does indeed show a foot, a left foot. In my current impression, it is Hill's left foot, with his right knee pulled up against his chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Gerda Dunkel at Duncan's forum, photo sections... did this for me... Seems pretty obvious it's his hand DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Gerda Dunkel at Duncan's forum, photo sections... did this for me... Seems pretty obvious it's his hand DJ Jack White was the first to say it was his hand, and I initially agreed. But look at the lines along the edge of the limo. What is hanging down over these lines? The size of the "hand" is another problem, IMO. To me, it seems disproportionately small when compared to Hill's hand in the background. BTW, I concluded long ago that it doesn't matter much what it was. What matters, IMO, is that the press altered the photo to make it look like JFK's right foot, and that this altered photo then made its way into not only the Secret Service's files, but the recollections of a number of witnesses. If I recall correctly, NONE of the 11-22 witness statements mentioned JFK's foot flying over the side of the car. A number of subsequent statements, however, mentioned the flying foot. It's example 1A of how the media helped screw up the investigation, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Curbow Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Gerda Dunkel at Duncan's forum, photo sections... did this for me... Seems pretty obvious it's his hand DJ Jack White was the first to say it was his hand, and I initially agreed. But look at the lines along the edge of the limo. What is hanging down over these lines? The size of the "hand" is another problem, IMO. To me, it seems disproportionately small when compared to Hill's hand in the background. BTW, I concluded long ago that it doesn't matter much what it was. What matters, IMO, is that the press altered the photo to make it look like JFK's right foot, and that this altered photo then made its way into not only the Secret Service's files, but the recollections of a number of witnesses. If I recall correctly, NONE of the 11-22 witness statements mentioned JFK's foot flying over the side of the car. A number of subsequent statements, however, mentioned the flying foot. It's example 1A of how the media helped screw up the investigation, IMO. Look at the picture from the other side, obviously taken at some time shortly before the ones posted before. That picture showing Hill's alignment in the car displays what is possible and what is not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Clint_Hill_on_the_limousine.jpg Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I think the topic that dealt with this covered pretty much everything and much was learnt.. Since then I've learnt that yes there were depressed handholds and there is no answer about the sole pattern but I think there is a definite footprint in the form of no blood on it on the back seat. Did it ever become clear when the antenna was broken or retracted? edit typo Edited January 13, 2012 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 When you consider JFK's posture, lying in Jackie's lap and unconscious, it seems physically imposible that his hand could be resting there upright, especially with Hill climbing in. I think Hill would have had to move the arm, and the shoulder-torso to climb in, while most of the leg would be lying flatter to the seat. i think that one of the problems we have deciding if it's a shoe or hand is that, unretouched, it makes an odd-looking shoe sole - like a clog sole, not a wingtip. Whether it's Hill's foot is still up for debate. But, is it possible that the whole photo is a sensationalistic fabrication, to be sold to the magazines? That there wasn't enough of JFK or Jackie visible in the car to make the photo "exciting"? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 When you consider JFK's posture, lying in Jackie's lap and unconscious, it seems physically imposible that his hand could be resting there upright, especially with Hill climbing in. I think Hill would have had to move the arm, and the shoulder-torso to climb in, while most of the leg would be lying flatter to the seat. i think that one of the problems we have deciding if it's a shoe or hand is that, unretouched, it makes an odd-looking shoe sole - like a clog sole, not a wingtip. Whether it's Hill's foot is still up for debate. But, is it possible that the whole photo is a sensationalistic fabrication, to be sold to the magazines? That there wasn't enough of JFK or Jackie visible in the car to make the photo "exciting"? Just a thought. My take is that the kid Miller showed up with the photo. And someone asked, "Well, what value is this? We can't see Kennedy!" And then someone, perhaps Miller himself, said "Well, that's his foot, isn't it?" And then someone said "I guess so. Give it to artwork and see if we can't make that look more like a foot!" And bang, a shape (which was really Clint Hill's left foot) was made to look like Kennedy's right foot. And SOLD around the world... CHA-CHING! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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