Impossible: The Case Against Lee Harvey Oswald

[David Von Pein]

I agree, David, that it's possible Oswald made multiple trips up and down the stairs, or even in the elevators, in the 11:00 to 12:00 hour. But will you agree that Oswald was WORKING on 11-22-63, and not hiding out on the fifth and sixth floors pretending to work, as claimed by some LNs, who think Oswald's being on the upper floors the bulk of the morning of 11-22 a necessary part of the plot?

Yes, I agree. He was very likely "working" throughout most of 11/22, although I feel it's important to also point out the fact that there were multiple unfilled orders on Oswald's clipboard (which was found very near the location where LHO hid his rifle near the staircase).

BTW, Pat, would you mind telling me which LNers have purported that Oswald was "hiding out" on the upper TSBD floors "the bulk of the morning of 11-22"? I cannot recall ever hearing that specific theory re Oswald before.

Edited May 11, 2012 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

DVP refuses to take the JFK Challenge, so I wouldn't rely on anything he reports.

As if accepting Barry's "JFK Challenge" is required to convict Oswald.

I guess if I don't take Barry's "challenge", then all of the evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald (which was firmly established long before I was three years old) will completely cease to exist.

Somebody better check on Barry....because I doubt he's able to leave his house anymore. His inflated head won't fit through the front door.

[Gil Jesus]

Now any objective person would have to admit, that when there is this much deliberate obfuscation and interference and outright falsification, then the official story had to be made up. Or else why do all this crap?

You mean:

The Mauser that became a Mannlicher-Carcano ?

The pointed bullet found on the stretcher that became CE 399 ?

The "steel-jacketed" 30.06 bullet recovered from Walker's home that became CE 573 ?

The white jacket that became greyish tan ?

The invisible paper bag in the crime scene photos ?

The same paper bag whose paper and tape could only be matched to the paper and tape that was in the shipping room of the TSBD on the afternoon of 11/22/63 ?

The .38 shells/ bullets that didn't match ?

The .38 auto shell that became a .38 special ?

Putting Oswald in a lineup with two teenagers and a Mexican ?

How could anyone believe all of this was falsified ?

ROFLMAO

Of course it was.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

the purpose of this book is to demonstrate once and for all that it would have been impossible for a court of law to have found Oswald guilty.

Which is why the DPD and Jack Ruby conspired to kill Oswald before custody was transferred to the Sheriff's Dept. Oswald was never going to have his day in court. Ruby was part of the corruption of the whole prosecutory system in Dallas. An Oswald trial would have exposed the extensive corruption of officialdom, including the framing of individuals for crimes they did not commit.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Gil Jesus

[Barry Krusch]

DVP refuses to take the JFK Challenge, so I wouldn't rely on anything he reports.

As if accepting Barry's "JFK Challenge" is required to convict Oswald.

I guess if I don't take Barry's "challenge", then all of the evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald (which was firmly established long before I was three years old) will completely cease to exist.

Somebody better check on Barry....because I doubt he's able to leave his house anymore. His inflated head won't fit through the front door.

But DVP, if you were even 50% confident in what you profess to believe, then taking on my challenge would be a very profitable endeavor for you. The fact that you are avoiding the challenge tells me that you are less than 50% confident in what you profess to believe.

If you don't have any faith in what you claim to believe, why should I?

My message to the members of this forum is this: all of these debates are FAKE debates. The people on the other side do not actually believe what they say. Just call them on it, prove it for yourself. Challenge them to appear before an arbitrator. Watch them dodge, duck, and run.

[Pat Speer]

I agree, David, that it's possible Oswald made multiple trips up and down the stairs, or even in the elevators, in the 11:00 to 12:00 hour. But will you agree that Oswald was WORKING on 11-22-63, and not hiding out on the fifth and sixth floors pretending to work, as claimed by some LNs, who think Oswald's being on the upper floors the bulk of the morning of 11-22 a necessary part of the plot?

Yes, I agree. He was very likely "working" throughout most of 11/22, although I feel it's important to also point out the fact that there were multiple unfilled orders on Oswald's clipboard (which was found very near the location where LHO hid his rifle near the staircase).

BTW, Pat, would you mind telling me which LNers have purported that Oswald was "hiding out" on the upper TSBD floors "the bulk of the morning of 11-22"? I cannot recall ever hearing that specific theory re Oswald before.

As a former warehouse worker, I can say that having multiple unfilled orders on a clipboard at lunchtime is pretty much business as usual. Oswald was an efficient and accurate order puller. Before going upstairs, he would grab a number of small orders, so that he could complete them on one trip. If, after he got up there, everyone else left for lunch, he would lay down the clipboard in a place where he could find it, and resume his duties after lunch. The clipboard works both ways--both as evidence Oswald was on the sixth floor before going down for lunch--and evidence he was actually working.

As far as Jarman, as an order checker, he would be looking through Oswald's orders, and double-checking them for accuracy. As a result, he would have had multiple contacts with Oswald throughout the day. Now, if one wants to use all this to push the Oswald-did-it scenario, there's this--Jarman said Oswald rarely made mistakes. If Jarman's HSCA testimony is accurate, and Oswald made a mistake on 11-22, and Jarman sent him back upstairs, those clinging to the Oswald did it scenario can offer that Oswald screwed up on purpose, so that he'd have a REASON for being upstairs. But, alas, Jarman said he saw Oswald return.

This raises the possibility that Oswald had to go up there, but didn't stay up there. Did he go up there to get his rifle out of hiding for someone else's use? Did he meet someone on the back stairs and guide him up to the sixth floor? Did he go up to the roof, and lead someone who'd been hiding up there down to the sniper's nest? ???

Or does it make more sense to think he'd made a simple mistake, which he'd quickly corrected? Or even that Jarman's memory was in error?

As far as which LN's think Oswald wasn't working, etc... Over the years, I've encountered a number of LNs on the IMDB forum and JFK Assassination forum whose names are kind of a blur to me... These guys hold that Oswald was a dirty lying wife-beating commie, and that the shots he made were easy. They then extend their hatred to his being a lazy ne'er do well without redeeming value. To them he's just a loser, and the epitome of everything they hate, when, in reality, Oswald was in many ways more interesting than Kennedy. Certainly more mysterious. Anyhow, more than one of these guys has presented the clipboard as "proof" Oswald wasn't even working on 11-22, when it, in fact, supports the opposite.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Barry Krusch]

Just published volume 3. Here is the synopsis from Amazon:

Highlights of this volume include:

-- The Case of the Incredible Moving Boxes (Proposition One, Element Three);

-- The 12 reasons why the single-bullet “theory” is a total fantasy;

-- A final analysis of the confidence level for Proposition One;

-- A Virtual Jury of 12, including two attorneys and an administrative law judge, provides their confidence level for the Case of the Incredible Moving Boxes;

-- Overview of The JFK Challenge and The JFK Mini-Challenge, with a draft set of proposed rules, and a counter-rebuttal to a prototype JFK Challenge rebuttal written by an attorney;

-- Your Homework Assignment (to get more background information on a bombshell document first released on the Internet in 2011).

[Pat Speer]

This is what I'm having trouble understanding. What was Jarman's role on November 22? Was he an order checker or was he a floor layer?

According to the Secret Service information complied on December, 7, 1963, Jarman was working with the floor laying crew. No order checking, no mistakes, no rectification process.

When Jarman was pulled in by the HSCA in 1978 he tried to eradicate the contradiction that, more than likely, he himself had created. After reviewing the statements he gave to the following authorities; DPD, Dallas Sheriff Department, FBI, Secret Sevice and the Warren Commission; Jarman handwrote at the bottom of the review form "The only change I wish to make is in the Secret Service statement fourth line from the top about my working on the Sixth Floor with other employees on the morning of November 22, 1963."

FWIW, it seemed fairly clear to me from reading the statements and testimony of the TSBD employees that Jarman was an order checker (which is a rung above an order puller) and that he'd had nothing to do with the floor crew.

[Michael Hogan]

Just published volume 3. Here is the synopsis from Amazon:

Highlights of this volume include:

-- The Case of the Incredible Moving Boxes (Proposition One, Element Three);

-- The 12 reasons why the single-bullet “theory” is a total fantasy;

-- A final analysis of the confidence level for Proposition One;

-- A Virtual Jury of 12, including two attorneys and an administrative law judge, provides their confidence level for the Case of the Incredible Moving Boxes;

-- Overview of The JFK Challenge and The JFK Mini-Challenge, with a draft set of proposed rules, and a counter-rebuttal to a prototype JFK Challenge rebuttal written by an attorney;

-- Your Homework Assignment (to get more background information on a bombshell document first released on the Internet in 2011).

Barry, I listened to your discussion with Len Osanic and thought you did a very good job. He's created quite a legacy with his archived shows.

You're in there with some good company.

Do you have any plans to issue your book in traditional form?

Respect for the hard work you put in and congratulations for getting your book out there in the format of the future.

Someday maybe we can swap turtle stories. I've got a red eared slider that is over forty years old.

[Barry Krusch]

Tks, Michael. Yes, hard copy will come, maybe in 3-5 months.

Kindle format allows me to give book away for free, that's why I picked it first.

[Gil Jesus]

All of the times that witnesses gave for certain events (like when they saw Oswald, etc.) are only estimates and are very loose and approximated timelines. There's no fixed times for these things and everybody knows it.

Not true. For example, Arnold Rowland claimed to have seen a man with a rifle in the sixth floor window at 12:15 or 12:16. He remembered hearing the location of the motorcade broadcast via a nearby police radio. The transcript of the Dallas Police radio traffic shows that the location Rowland described was broadcast at 12:16.

So, some of the witnesses were pretty accurate with their times.

All of this arguing of Oswald's location is moot. Oswald was in the Domino Room at noontime and was still on the first floor as seen by 4 witnesses between 11:45am and 12:25pm.

Carolyn Arnold left the building to watch the motorcade at 12:25pm and saw Oswald on the first floor.

http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/alibi.htm

Edited May 15, 2012 by Gil Jesus

[Pat Speer]

Lee, James Jarman said he was a checker from the beginning. There's no evidence he ever said otherwise.

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT

THE STATE OF TEXAS

COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared James Earl Jarman, Jr., c/m 33, 3942 Atlanta Street, Dallas, Texas HA8-1837 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at 8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.

/s/ James Earl Jarman, Jr.

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Patsy Collins

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

He said the same thing in his testimony before the WC.

Mr. BALL - What was your job at the Depository in November of 1963, last fall?

Mr. JARMAN - Checker.

Mr. BALL - What does a checker do?

Mr. JARMAN - He checks various orders, books and things that go out to different schools.

Mr. BALL - Do the order fillers bring the books down to where you have your----

Mr. JARMAN - Right.

Mr. BALL - On a table. You have a table?

Mr. JARMAN - I have a table with a scale and I weigh these books up and put the upholstery on them and put them and put them on a little conveyor and the wrappers wrap them or pack them, whichever one it may be.

Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. JARMAN - Only as a coworker.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him while he was working there?

Mr. JARMAN - I have had him to correct orders at various times. That is about all.

Mr. BALL - Now on November 22, what time did you get to work?

Mr. JARMAN - About 5 minutes after 8.

Mr. BALL - Was Oswald there when you got there?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Where did you see him the first time?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was on the first floor filling orders.

Mr. BALL - Did you bring your lunch that day?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL - What did you do about lunch that day?

Mr. JARMAN - I got a sandwich off the carrying truck.

Mr. BALL - About what time of day?

Mr. JARMAN - It was about 10 or a little after 10, maybe.

Mr. BALL Where did you put it, keep it until lunch?

Mr. JARMAN - In the domino room.

Mr. BALL - Where in the domino room?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, they have two little windows, they have two sets of windows in there and I put it in the window.

Mr. BALL - Did you talk to Oswald that morning?

Mr. JARMAN - I did.

Mr. BALL - When?

Mr. JARMAN - I had him to correct an order. I don't know exactly what time it was.

Mr. BALL - Oh, approximately. Nine, ten?

Mr. JARMAN - It was around, it was between eight and nine, I would say.

Mr. BALL - Between 8 and 9?

Mr. JARMAN - Between 5 minutes after 8 and 9.

Mr. BALL - You had him correct an order?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did you talk to him again that morning?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir. I talked to him again later on that morning.

Mr. BALL - About what time?

Mr. JARMAN - It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. BALL - Where were you when you talked to him?

Mr. JARMAN - In between two rows of bins.

Mr. BALL - On what floor?

Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.

Mr. BALL - And what was said by him and by you?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm. Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all.

Mr. BALL - Did you talk to him again?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.

Now, this is interesting. Jarman's affidavit says he saw Oswald go upstairs to get some boxes circa 11:30. He later told the HSCA he saw Oswald come back down. And yet, here in his WC testimony this incident is completely ignored. Note that Ball--one of the Belin/Ball tandem pushing Givens as the last to see Oswald--fails to remind Jarman of his affidavit. Note also that he asks Jarman if he TALKED to Oswald, and not the more relevant question if he SAW Oswald. I think it's fair from this to assume Ball was deliberately leading Jarman in a certain direction, and that Jarman went along for the ride.

As far as Norman, he was an order puller like Oswald. Where do you get that he was working on the floor crew on 11-22-63? (Perhaps you were thinking of Bonnie Ray Williams)

Mr. BALL. How many floors did you go to that morning yourself, November 22? Can you remember that?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe I went as far as the fifth floor that morning.

Mr. BALL. That is as far--

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't---yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you help them?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

You're right, Pat. I'm getting my Norman mixed with my Williams. Schoolboy mistake. If there is an inconsistency in the Secret Service information provided by Jarman then I'm willing to chalk it up as an error. I suppose the fact that there are issues concerning the different version of events and times of them going upstairs has me looking for inconsistencies everywhere.

I'll respond to your other comments later because I need to boff-up on the details of this piece of the case again but do you not find Jarman's comments about all the people waiting outside for the motorcade at 9am a bit strange? Do you believe there were crowds on Elm Street at 9am?

I think he later said it was around 10, during the morning break. But, yes, I agree it seems strange people lining up so early. I've been to the Rose Parade a couple of times and never got there more than an hour early. As Jarman's account is confirmed by Norman, moreover, and as Norman later told PBS this happened round lunch time, it seems possible the incident happened at lunch time, and that Norman and Jarman were pressured into pretending it happened earlier.

Now we need to find some pictures of Dealey Plaza from around 10. If they show empty streets, well, you've uncovered a strong argument Norman and Jarman saw Oswald downstairs around luncthime, and were pressured into lying about it.

[Barry Krusch]

Well, it has been well over a month now, and the comments that I have received on the text actually wrote in my book have been few and far between. I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the people that have been criticizing the book have not actually read it.

To remedy this defect, I am going to be posting sections of my book in the two topics related to it.

The first series of excerpts is from Chapter 8, Elements of the Case Against Lee Harvey Oswald.

FIRST EXCERPT FROM IMPOSSIBLE: THE CASE AGAINST LEE HARVEY OSWALD, VOLUME ONE, CHAPTER 8, "ELEMENTS OF THE CASE AGAINST LEE HARVEY OSWALD"

"As noted in the previous chapter, propositions can be divided into subpropositions, to be subsequently referred to more elegantly in this book as elements (note to attorneys: this usage, as a synonym for subproposition, is more fact-oriented than the law-oriented manner in which you are used to hearing the term).

As used in this book, the term element refers to a fact subsidiary to the proposition which must be true for the proposition to be true."

Edited May 25, 2012 by Barry Krusch

[Barry Krusch]

SECOND EXCERPT FROM IMPOSSIBLE: THE CASE AGAINST LEE HARVEY OSWALD, VOLUME ONE, CHAPTER 8, "ELEMENTS OF THE CASE AGAINST LEE HARVEY OSWALD"

Suppose you wanted to prove the general conclusion “men have walked on the moon.” You could start by creating this proposition:

“The first man walked on the moon on July 20, 1969.”

You could then analyze the proposition and determine the necessary subsidiary factual assumptions (i.e. elements) which also have to be true for the proposition to be considered true. Some of these are as follows:

• “America had the capacity to launch a rocket into outer space by July 20, 1969.”
  
• “America did in fact launch a rocket into outer space before July 20, 1969.”
  
• “The rocket launched into outer space by America before July 20, 1969 was capable of carrying and sustaining astronauts.”
  
• “The capacity to keep a man alive on the moon had been achieved before July 20, 1969.”
  

Edited May 28, 2012 by Barry Krusch