If Oswald Was an Intelligence Agent of Some Sort, How Was He Manipulated Into Being a Patsy?

[Larry Hancock]

That's probably a good synopsis Paul, at one level Oswald's military background made him at least a bit interesting but there was no real risk - there is some discussion that a lot of work

had to be done to change passwords and such for the defense zone around Oswald's last station but to my understanding those things change periodically anyway for security reasons.

All the mystery stuff about Oswald and the U2 sounded more likely a few decades ago before we have the history under our belts that we do now...showing the Soviets had been

tracking the exact flights of the plane for years. They just needed a new SAM, not any input from Oswald. They knew exactly where the U2 was, hitting it or anywhere near it was the

problem.

And of course Oswald didn't have to be an "active" intelligence asset, as a passive actor he would produce information simply by monitoring of how the Soviets reacted to him. We've learned

a lot about the college and foreign exchange dangle programs into the Soviet Union in the last few years and Greg Parker has done some great stuff there if memory serves. Its probably

also worth noting that Oswald's own manuscript, prepared after his return and while he was in Dallas, was an excellent debriefing document providing lots of info about the electronics

factory in Minsk and other items of interest...

-- Larry

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Paul,

I'm afraid you're mistaken about the "dishonorable discharge" bit.

Oswald may have mistakenly assumed that he was appealing a serious "dishonorable discharge." Why? Well, because about a year after he had (allegedly) defected to the Soviet Union, his mother relayed to him the incorrect information that that was what he had recently been given! But Oswald never was given a "dishonorable discharge." The truth is that he was given a dependency discharge around September 1, 1959, so that he could take care of his injured mother. At that time he was also transferred from active duty to the reserves. This dependency discharge was changed to an undesirable discharge (less serious than a "dishonorable discharge") on September 13, 1960, almost one full year after Oswald "defected" to the Soviet Union...

So I suppose the question is whether or not Oswald would have protested at all against the less-serious undesirable discharge which he was, in fact, given. Perhaps not. I mean, what could he have (plausibly) expected, anyway, given his trying to defect (or "defect") to the Soviet Union and everything. And maybe, if Oswald was a US spy, maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. I mean, after all, what would the Ruskies have thought if Oswald had retained his (honorable) dependency discharge (or something equally honorable) after defecting to the Soviet Union and offering to give up some juicy Marine Corps "aviation electronics operator" secrets, especially knowing that Oswald had informed the U.S. Embassy of his intention to do so?

Anyway, the following is from the Warren Commission Report, Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald:

" [...] Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7, 1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of confinement). (451) On August 17, he submitted a request for a dependency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support. (452) [...] on August 28, the [Marine Corps] Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved; (455) approval followed shortly. (456) On September 4, he was transferred from MACS-9 to the H. & H. Squadron, (457) and on September 11, he was released from active duty and transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve, in which he was expected to serve until December 8, 1962. (458) He was assigned to the Marine Air Reserve Training Command at the Naval Air Station in Glenview, Ill. (459) Almost exactly 1 year later, on September 13, 1960, Oswald was given an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps Reserve, (460)...

[...]

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.htm

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Tommy, many thanks for this correction. It was not a "dishonorable discharge" from the Marines that Oswald received, but an "undesirable discharge."

That is a significant difference. However, I think my main point still stands, because we still have testimony from attorney Dean Andrews that Lee Harvey Oswald sought legal advice to upgrade his Marine discharge status.

And lest somebody suspect that Dean Andrews committed perjury, we also have a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to the Secretary of the Navy, John Connally (later governor of Texas), requesting help to upgrade his Marine discharge status.

In other words, this "undesirable discharge" status does not appear to me to be a reasonable outcome of a successful spy-training mission in Russia. It seems to me that Lee Harvey Oswald botched his training mission somewhere.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

As of 6/08/13, you've made at least two misstatements about Oswald on this thread:

1) That he was given a dishonorable discharge

2) That he was a cryptographer or "involved with codebreaking"

Pray tell, how in the world can we take you seriously if you can't get your facts straight?

Warmest regards,

--Tommy

Edited June 8, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Mark Knight]

This has been the problem with Paul Trejo all along. He plays fairly loose with the facts, and then bases his unwavering theories on these incorrect "facts." Watch out, Tommy: you may now have become part of the mob who is "out to get him."

[Paul Trejo]

Dear Paul,

As of 6/08/13, you've made at least two misstatements about Oswald on this thread:

1) That he was given a dishonorable discharge

2) That he was a cryptographer or "involved with codebreaking"

Pray tell, how in the world can we take you seriously if you can't get your facts straight?

Warmest regards,

--Tommy

Gee, Tommy, I wasn't aware that one of the conditions for contributing to your thread was human perfection.

When I make a mistake I admit it promptly. That's how I was raised, and that's my criterion for courtesy.

If you only accept error-free contributors on your thread, then you should have said so at the start.

I sure hope you can live up to your error-free standard.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 10, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Paul,

As of 6/08/13, you've made at least two misstatements about Oswald on this thread:

1) That he was given a dishonorable discharge

2) That he was a cryptographer or "involved with codebreaking"

Pray tell, how in the world can we take you seriously if you can't get your facts straight?

Warmest regards,

--Tommy

Gee, Tommy, I wasn't aware that one of the conditions for contributing to your thread was human perfection.

When I make a mistake I admit it promptly. That's how I was raised, and that's my criterion for courtesy.

If you only accept error-free contributors on your thread, then you should have said so at the start.

I sure hope you can live up to your error-free standard.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

Look on the bright side-- at least I didn't call you an "outright xxxx."

LOL

Warmest regards,

--Tommy

Edited June 10, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

All the mystery stuff about Oswald and the U2 sounded more likely a few decades ago before we had the history under our belts that we do now...showing the Soviets had been tracking the exact flights of the plane for years. They just needed a new SAM, not any input from Oswald. They knew exactly where the U2 was, hitting it or anywhere near it was the problem.

[...]

Larry,

John Newman wrote in Oswald and the CIA,

"There is circumstantial evidence that Oswald gave away something the Soviets used. The U-2 flew thirty penetration flights over Soviet territory between June 1956 and May 1960. Twenty-eight flights occurred prior to Oswald's defection in October 1959. After his defection, the next U-2 flight on April 9, 1960, was successful, but the one after that, on May 1, was shot down. The pilot, Francis Gary Powers, survived, and his own analysis suggests that Oswald betrayed the height at which the U-2 flew. In Powers view, Oswald's work with the new MPS 16 height-finding radar looms large."

(My copy is dated 2008, but I'm guessing this passage can be traced back to the original version which came out in 1995.)

Larry, to your knowledge what have we learned about this subject from the documents that have been released since 1995?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited June 10, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Ian Kingsbury]

Tommy

Oswald could have been a double patsy,his "intentions " to "tell the Russians

All I know" Powers downing killed the Paris peace summit .

Is this not a case of foreign policy being dictated by actions of others

And not the public words of the commander in chief .it appears this happened quite a lot

Among the same "set" of people.

Ian

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, we have learned a ton of things that are relevent to the question - but a great deal of that comes fro Cold War history not anything specific to Oswald or JFK documents.

That means it takes a much broader view of the history of the period before some of the things that were mysterious even in the early 90's begin to be a bit less so.

In this instance I would refer you and everyone else to two fine books dealing with surveillance flights over the USSR, which provide extensive detail on the U-2 program and

the events that led to Powers downing.

Dark Eagles by Curtis Peebles, 1995

Shadow Flights also by Curtis Peebles, 2002

The Soviets knew exactly how high the U2 was flying, they had detected it on its very first flight, their radars were quite powerful and had the altitude to do that

and signals intelligence monitored Soviet military traffic referring to it on virtually every flight. Efforts to "stealth" the U-2 were only mildly successful.

That's why everyone knew those last few flights were such a risk, it was just a matter of when and were the Soviets might manage to launch their newest

generation of SAM's against it.

-- Larry

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy, we have learned a ton of things that are relevent to the question - but a great deal of that comes fro Cold War history not anything specific to Oswald or JFK documents.

That means it takes a much broader view of the history of the period before some of the things that were mysterious even in the early 90's begin to be a bit less so.

In this instance I would refer you and everyone else to two fine books dealing with surveillance flights over the USSR, which provide extensive detail on the U-2 program and

the events that led to Powers downing.

Dark Eagles by Curtis Peebles, 1995

Shadow Flights also by Curtis Peebles, 2002

The Soviets knew exactly how high the U2 was flying, they had detected it on its very first flight, their radars were quite powerful and had the altitude to do that

and signals intelligence monitored Soviet military traffic referring to it on virtually every flight. Efforts to "stealth" the U-2 were only mildly successful.

That's why everyone knew those last few flights were such a risk, it was just a matter of when and were the Soviets might manage to launch their newest

generation of SAM's against it.

-- Larry

Thanks Larry,

I ordered Shadow Flights a couple of days ago from Amazon.

On a slightly different tack, it's interesting that John Newman, on page 55 of Oswald and the CIA, apparently thinks that it's possible that Oswald defected (or tried to defect and changed his mind?) on his own and that a CIA operation was then built around it while Oswald was still in Russia.

" [The placing of Oswald on the CIA's HT/LINGUAL 'Watch List' on November 9, 1959, nine days after he'd told the U.S. Consul that he intended to defect and give the Soviets some radar secrets 'of special interest'] proves Oswald's status and makes his late 201 file issue all the more controversial. The talk about needing a “trigger” for a 201 on Oswald is silly because of his presence in the Watch List. The absence of a 201 file [for almost a full year] was a deliberate act, not an oversight. Moreover, this particular configuration of being on the Watch List without a 201 is an other anomaly which encourages speculation about whether LHO's defection could have been designed as part of a U.S. Operation from the beginning, or if an operation was built around his defection after the fact. " [emphasis added]

I'm curious to know what are your thoughts on this, Larry.

Personally, I think it's an intriguing idea because, if Oswald really did "defect" on his own, it's possible that he did it as an earnest, but foolish, U.S. Super Patriot who wanted to become a highly-valued spy.

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited June 12, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, first off I think my buddy Bill Simpich is going to give a much clearer picture of the Russian affair than I can...hopefully he will be in print by the end of the year. But since you asked, my impression is that Oswald was being used from the beginning, an outgrowth of his earlier volunteer informant activities with the bar girls in Japan, in a very low level inelligence ploy...positioning him as a "student" rather than a "defector". There were a series of programs of that nature in play and I think Oswald's interest in schooling in Europe was directed that way.... Certain circumstances that Bill is going to detail got him summarily redirected and moved quickly to Moscow where he was under real pressure to be taken as a legitimate defector (that wrist slashing incident was no joke). In general I think all of Oswald's various activities were with him as a "volunteer" but with many games going on around him about which he had no clue....as with most such games, the best and most reliable intelligence ploy of that nature is to find a viable volunteer and let him dangle himself. You just have to watch. You don't even have to have any direct contact....Oswald's manuscript which he produced after his return was a beautiful debrief including on the Minsk factory.

In a way then I would agree with John, Oswald was on his way to Europe for one purpose, and a new operation was built around him while that was in progress. But having multiple games in play is not unique. We have documents showing that when Richard Case Nagell showed up in Mexico City one of the first things he did was go to the American Embassy, tell them he was going to defect and provide classified information to a foreign nation. There is no record he was ever investigated over that so one can probably conclude it was part of a dangle operation to see if the KGB was doing to the US (in Mexico City) what the CIA was doing to the Cubans and Soviets there.

-- Larry

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy, first off I think my buddy Bill Simpich is going to give a much clearer picture of the Russian affair than I can...hopefully he will be in print by the end of the year. But since you asked, my impression is that Oswald was being used from the beginning, an outgrowth of his earlier volunteer informant activities with the bar girls in Japan, in a very low level inelligence ploy...positioning him as a "student" rather than a "defector". There were a series of programs of that nature in play and I think Oswald's interest in schooling in Europe was directed that way.... Certain circumstances that Bill is going to detail got him summarily redirected and moved quickly to Moscow where he was under real pressure to be taken as a legitimate defector (that wrist slashing incident was no joke). In general I think all of Oswald's various activities were as a "volunteer" but with many games going on around him about which he had no clue....as with most such games, the best and most reliable intelligence ploy of that nature is to find a viable volunteer and let him dangle himself. You just have to watch. You don't even have to have any direct contact....Oswald's manuscript which he produced after his return was a beautiful debrief including on the Minsk factory.

In a way then I would agree with John, Oswald was on his way to Europe for one purpose, and a new operation was built around him while that was in progress. But having multiple games in play is not unique. We have documents showing that when Richard Case Nagell showed up in Mexico City one of the first things he did was go to the American Embassy, tell them he was going to defect and provide classified information to a foreign nation. There is no record he was ever investigated over that so one can probably conclude it was part of a dangle operation to see if the KGB was doing to the US (in Mexico City) what the CIA was doing to the Cubans and Soviets there.

-- Larry

Thanks Larry,

I only wonder how Oswald could have afforded, out of his own pocket, to consort with the bar girls at such expensive joints as The Queen Bee. But then again, if the girls with whom Oswald was hanging out were really Soviet agents pumping him for information, they probably gave him a big discount!

Also, there is that documented case of V.D. which he contracted "in the line of duty." In the line of duty as a "volunteer informant"? Sounds a little contradictory to me!

Regardless, I do like the notion that Oswald was a perennial Volunteer...

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited June 12, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, the bar girls may have underwritten some of the cost or its very possible that once he reported the contact to ONI he received some funds to continue

dangling himself. I think DeMohrenschieldt's (sp?) description of Oswald as a proto hippie is right on....Oswald enjoyed new experiences and was quite bright

when he wanted to be...he also got himself in lots trouble (I knew those same sorts of guys in college a few years later...grin). If you read his monograph

you see he was definitely anti Soviet and anti CPUSA...but then within months he's writing CPUSA about going underground. Clearly there are games in

progress. He just didn't realize how risky it all could be....

[Greg Kooyman]

Tommy, the bar girls may have underwritten some of the cost or its very possible that once he reported the contact to ONI he received some funds to continue

dangling himself. I think DeMohrenschieldt's (sp?) description of Oswald as a proto hippie is right on....Oswald enjoyed new experiences and was quite bright

when he wanted to be...he also got himself in lots trouble (I knew those same sorts of guys in college a few years later...grin). If you read his monograph

you see he was definitely anti Soviet and anti CPUSA...but then within months he's writing CPUSA about going underground. Clearly there are games in

progress. He just didn't realize how risky it all could be....

Larry,

My take on Oswald is that ONI saw his potential as a low level operative and Oswald was paid to be a dangle to the Soviets while in Japan. I believe Angleton picked up Oswald along with others that were handpicked for his "Operation Redskin" false defector program. I believe Angleton later picked Oswald as a perfect "Patsy" due to his eagerness to volunteer and that his experience in Russia was the perfect sheep dip for creating his false legend as a communist sympathizer. Oswald in my opinion felt he was doing his patriotic duty by volunteering for this intelligence type work, and later was used by the FBI and CIA in their competing schemes to spot communists and report on their activities.

I believe by the time David Phillips got ahold of Oswald and started grooming him as a fall guy for the assassination, Oswald had no clue as to what he was truly involved in. I believe that up until the day of the assassination, Oswald thought he was still operating as an infiltrator of Anti Castro Cuban groups reporting on their activities as well as trying to spot possible communists within their ranks. Just my humble opinion.

By the way, I really enjoyed both editions of SWHT and your latest book, Nexus. Both are "Top Shelf" material on the assassination in my opinion!

Regards,

Greg

[Paul Trejo]

...Regardless, I do like the notion that Oswald was a perennial Volunteer...

Sincerely,

--Tommy

This is close to the way I view Lee Harvey Oswald. He wanted to be a part of the Intelligence community. He wanted a permanent, full-time job with them, and he believed he had the talent for the job.

Oswald had ambition and he had gumption. He had talent, but he also had flaws. Yet he was young, so he was hopeful. Maybe somebody would see his potential and offer him some training...

To make himself available for a full-time job with the ONI, CIA or FBI, Oswald would do gopher jobs for them -- private detective sorts of information gathering -- what we commonly today call a 'snitch.' This is my opinion. Oswald had a Minox camera for just such occasions.

Wasn't there a Western Union clerk in Texas who testified that Lee Harvey Oswald would come to his office to receive small amounts of cash ($10 and $20) on a semi-regular basis?

It seems to me that Lee Harvey Oswald would volunteer for every quasi-intelligence job he could think of. He probably was one of the 36-40 young military men chosen to dangle in the USSR, and this boosted his ego tremendously. After that, he never gave up hope.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited June 13, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Greg, I'm certainly right with you on that view....and as to Paul, yes there were a couple of sources who provided information that Oswald was receiving at least

modest payments following his return from the Soviet Union...and Geg, thanks for the kind words on the books.

Amazingly this looks like one area that at least some number of CT folks might agree on. Larry