David Morales

[Larry Hancock]

Ron, a couple of things to factor into the train overpass equation:

1) The police officers stated that they were assigned to the East and West

of the overpass - which means their focus was on the traffic on Elm and

not really on security for the overpass. If you take a close look at the DPD

reports you will see that almost all their efforts on the motorcade route

were about traffic control for the "parade", not about security. The concern

for security and preparations for that were virtually all at the location of

the speech where they expected agitators and demonstrators based on the

model of the earlier visit by Stevenson.

-- note: it's not like an abort team would have been supplementing DPD

or other security in the Plaza, there was none there.

2) The officers were unprepared for people to start showing up on the overpass

and used Holland to vet RR employers just because he told them he was

a company manager; there was no plan for it. Apparently the cops accepted

the position that since it was RR property then employees could be up there.

3) The RR overpass is really quite wide, much more so than it appears

in the photo, there is no way that two cops could cover both ends of it as

well as watch out for traffic problems - and it is worthwhile noting that

these two cops had most of their attention focused on the stalled

pick up on Elm street that would have been a real problem for the

motorcade. They only managed to get it out of there shortly before

the motorcade arrived but that did occupy their attention. Whether that

stalled pick up was pure circumstance or a diversion depends upon whether

you tend to be suspicious of such things. The police report on it afterwards

satisfies some but not others.

4) There is no indication that DPD worried about security per se anywhere

in the Plaza, the only officers west of Houston were assigned to bridges

and overpasses.

5) Plotters wishing to use either knoll would have to have assumed both

car and foot traffic as a possiblity on either side of the knoll, both had

car and foot access - and both were exposed to people looking out across

them, whether it was Bowers in his tower or employees in the Post Office

annex behind the south knoll.

-- Larry

[Tim Carroll]

Tosh,

The people on the overpass were supposed to be railroad workers. An office supervisor, Holland, was there for the purpose of making sure that's who they were. Holland did say that some people he didn't know arrived at the last minute, and the cops were checking them. But since the workers were allowed to be there, it was natural they would congregate on the north end, where JFK would pass right under them, instead of the south end, which would therefore be deserted.

But then there's the question, why didn't the cops move them away from the north end, toward the south, so that they wouldn't be standing right over the president? That was not supposed to happen anywhere on the motorcade route.

So there may indeed have been a reason why the cops let them stay at the north end. Maybe there was something at the south end that they were not supposed to see or hear.

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron's right. The security on the triple underpass was flagrantly amiss. The last thing security would allow is for anyone to be able to be directly above the presidential limo - not a railroad worker, not anyone. So to actually favor the north side is inexplicable.

Tim

[William Plumlee]

x

Edited March 21, 2008 by William Plumlee

[Tim Carroll]

Tosh,

I've been unable to attach photos on this site for a few days now. I tried again when you asked for an overhead view with no luck. I keep getting an error message saying that the file is greater than allowed by the administrator for my group, or whatever. Everything was working fine until a few days ago. I'm making my first trip to the Plaza this Nov. 18 on my way home to California from scuba diving in the Florida Keys. I'd be glad to hear any suggestions for photos. I will be examining my classic gunman figure position. I'll try to e-mail John to see what gives with the attachments.

Tim

[Guest]

Tosh,

I've been unable to attach photos on this site for a few days now.  I tried again when you asked for an overhead view with no luck.  I keep getting an error message saying that the file is greater than allowed by the administrator for my group, or whatever.  Everything was working fine until a few days ago.  I'm making my first trip to the Plaza this Nov. 18 on my way home to California from scuba diving in the Florida Keys.  I'd be glad to hear any suggestions for photos.  I will be examining my classic gunman figure position.  I'll try to e-mail John to see what gives with the attachments.

Tim

I have doubled the space available for uploads to those under the "JFK" permission masks. This should resolve this issue

[Tim Carroll]

Overview:

Tosh,

You said you recognized the man standing next to Umbrella Man although could not identify him by name. Are you ruling out the following portrayal as correctly identifying Bosch?

Thanks,

Tim

[William Plumlee]

x

Edited March 21, 2008 by William Plumlee

[William Plumlee]

x

Edited March 21, 2008 by William Plumlee

[William Plumlee]

x

Edited March 21, 2008 by William Plumlee

[Larry Hancock]

Hi Tosh, let's see if I can cover the points in your post in sequence...grin.

First, the pick up I was referring two was stalled and blocking one lane

south bound on Houston for most of the hour - hour and a half before the

motorcade arrived. It was giving the cops fits as they knew they had to

clear it; supposedly it was stalled. One officer left with one of the guys in

the pick up and eventually they came back and I think towed it off with

another pick-up, either that or got it started, forget which. It got out

of the area just about the time the call went out for the ambulance up at

the corner of Houston and Elm. Lots going on in the plaza before the arrival

of the motorcade; the ambulance almost ended up blocking the intersection.

Second while we may not know a lot of things about most SS preparations we know lot about Dallas because they had to explain them - and defend them - and beyond that they were used to justify a serious reformulation of many SS operations and procedures. We have quite detailed reports on planning from the SS lead agent and from the DPD, the SS coordinated heavily with many local agencies ranging from DPD and Sheriffs Dept, Fire Dept, Ambulance services and even the Rail Road representatives (for example no trains were to pass any overpass for at least half an hour before or after the scheduled transit time of the motorcade - may have been 45 min actually). We have the records and logs of all those meetings attended by both the SS and by the DNC represetative from Washinton, Jack Peuterbaugh (sp).

Due to the work of the ARRB with local Dallas 112th Military Intelligence we also have a specific record of what they did or did not do (not do is more like it) which is confirmed by the SS not requesting their assistance - normally SS requested Military help only on military facilities or in areas with minimal local law enforcement - such as on the conservation tour JFK took earlier that fall.

We also know about the special preparations taken at the Trade Center, in detail including going over photos of the Stevenson protest from local media to ID potential trouble makers.

On another point, actually I think we have resonably conclusive evidence now and I cover it in the book I brought out last year....whether anyone agress with that opinion is of course up to them but we really do have a huge amount of detail now.

Finally, you bet, I will email you a list privately - thank you, Larry

[William Plumlee]

x

Edited March 21, 2008 by William Plumlee

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks Tosh, and you bring up a very critical point. It is very clear

that there was at least one individual behind the north knoll fence with

Secret Service or Justice Department credentials. There may have been

another but one is clear.

That is especially important because immediately following the assassination,

an individual in Miami reported to the FBI that he had known a person

associated with Cuban exiles, who held a deep hatred for JFK and

who had traveled to Dallas. The witness knew this individual who had SS credentials in his possession.

A few years ago that individual confirmed to Noel Twyman that he had been

carrying SS credentials and that he was in Dallas on November 22.

His name is Roy Hargraves; he is now deceased.

His story is just one of the reasons that a lot of things about Dallas that

were very vague and mysterious for the first 30 some years are

becoming a lot clearer now.

As to the Secret Service not following proper procedures - that started with

most of the detail out in a bar until 3am the night before. And one of the most obvious things about the security they did provide was that it was in no way "enhanced" nor did it show any sign of earlier warnings that we now know existed in Chicago and Miami. If somebody in DC knew JFK was at risk it certainly doesn't show in the Dallas preparations for whatever reason. That was my point about security on the RR overpass, there wasn't any, not just there but virtually no place in Dallas other than at the banquet hall.

-- Larry

[James Richards]

Larry,

I'm glad you mentioned Hargraves as that information is vital I believe. Hargraves also claimed connections to the CIA even though Hemming at the time was trying to put some distance in that possible relationship.

I find this 1964 newspaper clipping below interesting. Hargraves mentions the so-called CIA sponsored mission with Vidal but correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Vidal mistrust the CIA and not want to have anything to do with them?

I guess it could suggest something rogue and if one is allowed to speculate, JM/WAVE springs to mind.

James

[James Richards]

I did say at one time to Peter Lemkin and Jim Marrs that he did look like Bosch also known as 'Gator" and had a finger missing on his right hand I think. (Tosh Plumlee)

Tosh,

You mention the name 'Gator'. Could it have been El Gato? This guy supposedly had a finger bitten off by an alligator.

James

Edited October 20, 2004 by James Richards

[Larry Hancock]

James, one thing that is surely true in the article is Hemming's statement;

he was an intelligence source for the CIA after his return and was even

given a provisional security clearance. That was withdrawn but he did continue

to provide information primarily passing it through the FBI who seems to have

copied the CIA on most of it. That continued through the early 60's.

As for Vidal, he had a preliminary CIA association at the time of his

departure from Cuba but quickly became disenchanted with them, especially

when they refused help in exfiltrating his brother. It's hard for me to

see either of them knowingly cooperating with the CIA per se.

On the other hand we are seeing more and more documents indicating that

JMWAVE tried to manipulate and get info. on the most independent exile

groups by feeding them funds through cut outs - in the end I would think it

was always easy to claim support from the CIA when it was convenient - and

on occasion it might have been true, at least as far as small amounts of money.

But as far as the CIA was concerned that was seed money for collectiong intelligence, not for really serious operations.

That's what I get from the JMWAVE ops documents at least.

-- Larry