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Help Please - need to see FBI Item D-77: Kleins orders

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During Waldman's testimony he is shown FBI Item D-77, the microfilm record of the orders during THAT time period...

and they find and print order 270502

It is my claim that we see no other Klein's orders that identify any one other rifle from the lot of 100 included with C2766 as SOLD on orders listing the Item # as C20-T750 as the LNers claim occurred for the Hidell order becasue there NEVER WERE ANY. I contend that every other order for C20-T750 was shipped something OTHER than M91/38FC rifles and that every order that was shipped an M91/38FC rifle shows us a completely different Item #.

In fact, we are not shown a single other order where a M91/38FC was shipped to ANYONE, for either a C20-T750 order or an order for its item number either.

Does D-77 exist other than as a photo of the film cannister from Cadigan Ex #1 http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0133a.htm

So that we can see some of these other orders?

Did no one EVER ASK to see where the other 99 rifles from the 10 packing lists wound up and on which orders?

Thx

DJ

Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.

Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.

Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped

Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.

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Yes, this is a bit frustrating... this microfilm has orders processed all around the HIDELL order which could show other C20-T750 orders identifying which rifles were shipped.... M91/38TS or FC's...

but the FBI has it since 11/23/63...

DJ

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Gonna bump this one more time...

With all the argument over the Kleins order and their shipping a replacement for C20-T750, one would think that the ABSENCE of any other orders that show the same thing, or a batch of orders which show the actual rifles shipped for C20-T750, and the ACTUAL item # of the M91/38FC rifles shipped,...

... might be something worht concealing if it did not show what was needed....

We havre the photo of the microfilm cannister... Any idea where we can actually SEE the FBI D-77 contents?

Gary Mack maybe has the printout at the museum?

Armstrong/Weisberg in their collections?

Mary Ferrell?

Thanks in advance for any assistance

DJ

270502 was the order #... the info on the orders prior to this would be VERY interesting

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0133a.htm

269288 thru 270596... 1200 orders !! prior and 90 or so AFTER....

WHAT Kleins shipped for C20-T750 orders from Aug 1962 thru March 1963 would be right there on these orders, no?

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Date: 8/18/2010 3:28:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time

From: Gary Mack

To: David Von Pein

--------------------

Dave,

Thanks to The Sixth Floor Museum’s collection, today I examined all

1963 issues of the American Rifleman and here is what I found:

Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with

scope)

Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above

Mar 63 -- No ad

Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with

scope)

May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66

Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with

scope)

Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with

scope)

Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above

Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above

Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above

Nov 63 -- No ad

Dec 63 -- No ad

So as I suggested earlier, Oswald ordered the 36” rifle but, probably

due to Klein’s running out of stock, he received the 40” model

instead. The price remained the same, so Klein’s may have just sent

him the newly available model instead. They would certainly accept a

return if he didn’t want it.

The Museum’s copy of the May 1963 issue is missing four pages and,

since Klein’s ads normally ran in the back half of the magazine, it

was likely on one of those pages. But as you can see, the ad for the

months before and after May showed the exact same 40” rifle.

I don’t know when the American Rifleman normally went to press, but I

would think they’d want the new issue to appear on the newsstands and

in subscriber’s mailboxes at or shortly before the beginning of each

month. That would mean all ad copy must be ready and in the hands of

the publisher at least 30 days ahead of time, maybe more.

If Klein’s ran out of 36” rifles in January, they might not even have

enough time to get a corrected ad in by the March deadline. Maybe

that’s why there was no ad in the March issue? Perhaps Klein’s sold

out of the Carcano and other weapons and just couldn’t update their

new ad before the deadline?

Gary Mack

[August 18, 2010]

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/-T9y2K5oOq4/SMyT9S_onnEJ

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Dave..Mr. Mack does seem to use quite a few probably's, may haves,likely's,don't knows,would think's,perhaps,etc... to use this as an example of fact......Robert

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Dave..Mr. Mack does seem to use quite a few probably's, may haves,likely's,don't knows,would think's,perhaps,etc... to use this as an example of fact......Robert

S.O.P. Robert...

But he does not address what would certainly be PROOF of their shipping activity for orders of Item # C20-T750

There are 99 other rifles on the 10 packing slips that included C2766... Are we saying that the FBI cannot point to a single OTHER ORDER for which they shipped one of those seriel #'s for a C20-T750 order?

Not ONE, Dave?

Does it not make ANY SENSE TO YOU AT ALL that substantiation for such a claim would be EASILY PROVEN with any number of other orders showing the SAME DAMN THING....

The FBI even has the microfilm of orders.... and I would even imagine that the microfilm cannister prior to this one ALSO HAS PROOF to support

YOUR LONE CONTENTION that Kleins shipped HIDELL a different rifle than ordered...

GARY - IF Kleins ran out of 36" rifles in January, then we would have orders from as early as APRIL 1962 which were shipped a 36" M91/38TS rifle for an ad for C20-T750...

If they cancelled their TS order in April 1962, WHAT RIFLES WERE THEY SHPPING FOR C20-T750 ORDERS FROM MAY THRU JANUARY?

GARY - Can you offer any coroborration for what Kleins was shipping? Did they not keep a list of "TS" rifles that satisfied C20-T750 orders as the kept a list of "FC" rifles?

IF KLEINS BEGAN SHIPPING THE "FC" RIFLE FOR C20-T750 ORDERS, WHY DONT WE HAVE A LIST OF SERIEL #'S LIKE C2766 AND A VC # ASSOCIATED WITH ANY OF THOSE ORDERS?

The ongoing WC apologist argument that Kleins shipped Hidell a "FC" without a single coroborrating order, when the FBI HAS THE RECORDS SINCE 11/23... is a problem DVP...

Why are we being hidden from all those orders?

DJ

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LN'ers are allowed to deal in "I would think," "might," and "perhaps." The rest are held to a higher standard of proof.

Edited by Mark Knight

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An open letter to Gary Mack and DVP:

Are you going to now try and say that the HIDELL ORDER was the only one in which a rifle serial # and VC # were written?

That Kleins would not keep track of who bought what, when and where? As they did on the HIDELL ORDER?

Even your Dad’s food business would keep track of what it shipped for orders placed…. this isn’t about INVENTORY ERRORS… this is about the FBI creating an order that is used to implicate Oswald by HANDWRITTING a serial number on it.

Are you claiming that you’ve NEVER SEEN ANOTHER KLEIN’S order… EVER? if so, how would you know what they shipped for C20-T750 orders thru Jan/Feb 1963 or where any of the “FC” rifles were shipped and what ITEM # was used…

Gary – this is the same BS excuse for the Seaport/REA revolver order…. it was as if the rules of business were suspended and common sense thrown out the door….

There is simply no hard proof that REA ever got its COD charges or the SEAPORT ever got its $19.95 from REA…

If REA paid Seaport… forwarded them the money, don’t you supposed REA would have a receipt of the actual movement of money to SEAPORT? of actually receiving and depositing the $1.27?

None of these things exist cause it did not happen that way….

We can see Ruby’s mother’s dental records, but not the paper trial that substantiates two of the most important pieces of evidence against Oswald…. the revolver and rifle.

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perfect dude… can’t address a question, start in on the insults… I find it interesting that you think being called a propaganda doll for the WCR is an insult… you wear the badge so proudly.

“but what is known is that by February 1963, they had no more 36” Carcanos to ship” - this is exactly what we are trying to find out Gary… we do NOT KNOW this to be a fact at all…

that is the HYPOTHESIS you are starting with….

Additionally, from your answer… Kleins would have been shipping TS rifles in Jan 63, Dec 62, Nov 62, etc… WHERE DID THEY GET THESE RIFLES GARY?

Also from your answer there would be OTHER orders shipped in March, April, May 63 and beyond that referencing the SERIAL # and VC # of OTHER “FC” RIFLES as was on the HIDELL order – no?

A logical next step FOR THE FBI would be to print out all C20-T750 orders… and see what was shipped – if over and over an FC was hipped for C20-T750, you have your supporting evidence… IF NOT, and the HIDELL ORDER was the ONLY ONE in which an FC rifle was shipped...

Wouldn’t you be interested in that info in determining whether Kleins had established a pattern or THE HIDELL ORDER was the only one referenceing a FC rifle for a C20-T750 order prior to April 1963… duh!

And to print out any order that referenced one of the other 99 rifles on the list… Surely they sold more than just the one M91/38FC during this time period….

WHAT DOES A REGULAR ORDER, that was shipped a M91/38FC Look Like? Again Gary… you have no interest in what Kleins was doing with the two and only two rifles types we are concerned about?

and what Kleins was doing to fulfill C20-T750 orders for 8 months?

Prove me paranoid then Gary… show us that the HIDELL ORDER was not the ONE AND ONLY TIME a M91/38FC was shipped for a C20-T750 ordered

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Been having yet another email conversation with GMack... He dont like that I want to see OTHER KLEINS ORDERS to substantiate the calim that Kleins was shipping a M91/38FC rifle for C20-T750 orders for months....

Any single order with a M91/38FC seriel # on it next to an Item # C20-T750 would PROIVE that Kleins was shipping the bigger rifle for the "TS" rifle in the ad....

Yet on the flip side, any C20-T750 that was shipped a M91/38TS would allow us to see WHEN did Kleins run out of TS's, and HOW did they complete these orders if the cancelled their April shipment of TS rifles?

- Is there any proof that Kleins bought TS's elsewhere?

- Did Kleins EVER have TS rifles for sale?

- Did the TS's Kleins shipped have Seriel numbers like the FC's?

So I ask again - GARY, in October 1962, when Kleins rec'd a C20-T750 coupon... WHAT DID THEY SHIP THE CUSTOMER?

Without publishing his emails y'all should know the general tone of his reply...

Only interested in Oswald's order

WHAT DOES A REGULAR ORDER, that was shipped a M91/38FC Look Like? Again Gary… you have no interest in what Kleins was doing with the two and only two rifles types we are concerned about?

and what Kleins was doing to fulfill C20-T750 orders for 8 months?

Only interested in Oswald's order

A logical next step FOR THE FBI would be to print out all C20-T750 orders… and see what was shipped – if over and over an FC was hipped for C20-T750, you have your supporting evidence… IF NOT, and the HIDELL ORDER was the ONLY ONE in which an FC rifle was shipped

- wouldn’t you be interested in that info in determining whether Kleins had established a pattern or THE HIDELL ORDER was the only one referenceing a FC rifle for a C20-T750 order prior to April 1963… duh!

Only interested in Oswald's order

Additionally, from your answer… Kleins would have been shipping TS rifles in Jan 63, Dec 62, Nov 62, etc… WHERE DID THEY GET THESE RIFLE GARY?

Only interested in Oswald's order

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Why on Earth would the FBI care about other orders in the Klein's files other than the paperwork connected with the purchase of one particular rifle with the serial number C2766 on it (which was purchased by Oswald, of course)?

That's the only gun purchase the FBI was looking for -- the one with C2766 attached to it. And that's because they knew that the JFK murder weapon was a gun with "C2766" on it. Any other Klein's order was useless and immaterial to the FBI's investigation. Isn't this obvious?

You, David Josephs, are merely concentrating on all the wrong things (again), in order to make Oswald blameless.

Of course there were many other order forms in the Klein's files that looked similar to Waldman #7. But none of those other orders had the serial number "C2766" written on them, and therefore none of those many other Klein's orders had any bearing whatsoever on the JFK murder case.

So why in the world would those other forms for non-Oswald gun purchases be propped up in any FBI report, or the Warren Report, or anyplace else (outside a forum like this one, which is filled with people who look for excuses 24/7 to exonerate a guilty double-murderer)?

Waldman-Exhibit-7.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein

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Thanks for posting David... Give us another chance to see how the LNer BLINDERS work....

The order below has some very specific characteristics that are ASSUMED based on some handwritting...

The ASSUMPTION is that Kleins shipped M91/38"FC" rifles for M91/38TS orders (C20-T750) starting some time BEFORE March 1963... or was the HIDELL order the FIRST TIME THIS OCCURRED?

People who have a brain DVP, can make the distinction between THE FIRST TIME, THE ONLY TIME and A PATTERN....

If Kleins was shipping FC rifles for C20-T750 OTHER THAN JUST TO HIDELL - which is what you are saying if Kleins was replacing the FC on the HIDELL order they would replace it on OTHER C20-T750 orders, duh! - then seeing an order with a FC seriel # on it referenced to Waldman's "VC" sheet" and we establish a PATTERN

If there is a PATTERN, the FBI proves the assumption... that Kleins WAS sending FC rifles for C20-T750 from some date forward....

If this was the FIRST TIME, then the FBI can prove the assumption by showing SUBSEQUENT ORDERS with the Seriel#, VC # of a FC rifle shipped for a FEBRUARY COUPON FOR C20-T750...

IF THIS WAS THE ONLY TIME... then you have a problem David (and by proxy GMACK)... You have to answer the question...

IF KLEINS WAS SHIPPING TS RIFLES BEFORE HIDELL FOR C20-T-750, AND AFTER HIDELL, THEN THIS IS THE ONE AND ONLY ORDER ON WHICH KLEINS SENT A FC RIFLE FOR A C20-T750 ORDER...

One and only time? The ONLY ORDER for which an FC rifle was shipped for a C20-T750 order was HIDELL's? How do you explain that?

THAT is why we need to see these orders and THAT is why the FBI has kept those orders in their possession.... you honestly believe that if the Kleins orders help implicate Oswald, the FBI would have simply discarded this valuable evidence? Or were they counting on yahoos like GMACK who prcoclaim that, "Only Oswald's order mattered"

Gary asked "why do yo suppose no other researcher has asked for and gotten copies of those orders?"

And I ask WHY, if we have the microflim, have we not seen the stack of orders for C20-T750 from that cannister and SEE SHAT THEY SAY?

Find some order with FC seriel #'s on them and SEE WHAT WAS ORDERED...

---------------

Has this really escaped research all these years? I only recently found out about D-77, Cadigan Ex #1.... maybe I can get some help with a NARA request?

......

and to Gary Mack in response to yeta nother classic letter :

Your lack of intellectual curiosity and integrity is the only joke here Gary…

Focus Gary… LATONA SAYS THERE ARE NO PRINTS ON THE RIFLE

How can you say Oswald, who was not wearing gloves and supposedly had THAT RIFLE in his possession for over 6 months, let alone the amount of handling of it supposedly THAT DAY…

Mr. LATONA. I was not successful in developing any prints at all on the weapon. I also had one of the firearms examiners dismantle the weapon and I processed the complete weapon, all parts, everything else. And no latent prints of value were developed.

You have no ID of Oswald shooting

You have no prints on the rifle

You have no photos of the bag or clip having actually BEEN IN THE TSBD

You can’t find where the ammo was purchased

The sling is a hand-made oddity

The rifle is seriously a Piece of SH!T along with the ammo

CE399 was NOT INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION yet was connected to the rifle and ergo Oswald…

You have no one seeing him go UP to the 6th floor

You have no one see him enter with a package

In fact Gary, you have very little authenticated, corroborated evidence of anything related to Oswald other than the FBI’s discounting of Carolyn Arnold, and the kid glove handling of Mrs. Reid

What Mrs. Arnold says she actually told the FBI is very different from the report of her comments and not vague at all. She said: "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination [12:15], I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment. . . . Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly." Mrs. Arnold has reason to remember going into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water

Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?

Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Just 1 second there. How long after the third shot did you run into the building?

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on Friday and I am going to come to that as soon as I get the route first.

Mr. DULLES. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You went into the building in the main lobby?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the elevator or the stairs?

Mrs. REID. No; I went up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs?

Mrs. REID. No; the front stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. I went into the office.

Mr. BELIN. You went into your office?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."

He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.

Mr. BELIN. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time that the last shot was fired, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?

Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you.

Mrs. REID. Two minutes.

Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald crossed?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.

That’s it… let her off the hook… there will be no, “So Mrs. Reid, who was in the lunchroom when you left?”

Bottom Line? That you would prefer NOT TO SEE OTHER EVIDENCE in this case is all we need to know…

And the way you continue to spin what little you have to go on is also quite amusing…

What I identified was a means for CONFIRMING THE WCR which suggests that Kleins sent HIDELL a FC rifle… or proving that they didn’t and never did send FC rifles for C20-T750 orders

That you and DVP are so afraid of what these orders would show is also a joke….

One would think you and he would WANT to confirm Kleins business activities…. but proving Oswald did it, or NOT, is not the same as sitting at your desk and saying HISTORY SAYS SO….

You are a scared little man, who only wants to please his benefactors and hide behind the skirt of the government’s telling of history…

I like when you chime in Gary… only seems to happen when you know you have no argument and would rather spin your wheels with me than post on the forum…

the LOGIC behind seeing orders similar to HIDELL’s is lost on you, obviously….

Like there is no value in asking Why, if Oswald was a LN, was the CIA placing him with the KGB and discussing killing JFK and trying to arrange travel to Cuba/Russia… AND FORWARDING THAT OBVIOUSLY INCORRECT INFORMATION TO STATE, FBI and ONI.

So either Oswald WAS involved in a Conspiracy… As Mexico City suggests… or the CIA fabricated Oswald in Mexico City for the sole purpose of incriminating him…

Either way…

How again does this suggest a Lone Nut… as opposed to a conspiracy of one kind or another?

Why on Earth would the FBI care about other orders in the Klein's files other than the paperwork connected with the purchase of one particular rifle with the serial number C2766 on it (which was purchased by Oswald, of course)?

That's the only gun purchase the FBI was looking for -- the one with C2766 attached to it. And that's because they knew that the JFK murder weapon was a gun with "C2766" on it. Any other Klein's order was useless and immaterial to the FBI's investigation. Isn't this obvious?

You, David Josephs, are merely concentrating on all the wrong things (again), in order to make Oswald blameless.

Of course there were many other order forms in the Klein's files that looked similar to Waldman #7. But none of those other orders had the serial number "C2766" written on them, and therefore none of those many other Klein's orders had any bearing whatsoever on the JFK murder case.

So why in the world would those other forms for non-Oswald gun purchases be propped up in any FBI report, or the Warren Report, or anyplace else (outside a forum like this one, which is filled with people who look for excuses 24/7 to exonerate a guilty double-murderer)?

Waldman-Exhibit-7.jpg

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Find some [Klein's Sporting Goods] order with FC seriel #'s on them and SEE WHAT WAS ORDERED.

This gives me a perfect opportunity to utilize this same type of "YOU FIND IT" argument in a related "rifle" area of the case:

For years, CTers like Thomas H. Purvis (and others) have claimed that there are very likely a whole bunch of additional 91/38 Carcano rifles in existence with the serial number C2766, other than just CE139 (Oswald's rifle).

Purvis, in fact, has stated in the past that there could be as many as "40 to 50" Carcano rifles floating around with the exact same serial number of C2766 adorning them. (Which is totally insane, to begin with.)

But, to date, I have never ever seen any conspiracy theorist produce any proof at all that even TWO different Carcano rifles have the exact same serial number -- and that goes for the number "C2766" or ANY other serial number. I've never seen anyone show proof that there were two rifles of ANY make or model that have an identical serial number.

The whole idea of identical serial numbers on any products is an absurd notion on its face. And it's particularly nutty to think that there are as many as "40 to 50" Carcano 91/38s floating around with C2766 on them.

The whole idea of a serial number in the first place is to give that ONE item uniqueness, which sets it apart from all others in its general class. And particularly rifles, which are often used in crimes and would require tracing via unique serial numbers.

I can't show David Josephs any other Klein's order forms for rifles (other than Waldman 7, which is the form that hangs Oswald in a number of ways). But that's not because no other forms exist. Of course similar forms did exist in the Klein's files in 1963. For Pete sake, the Klein's people were scouring those forms and records until the wee small hours of 11/23/63 looking for one specific form with "C2766" on

it -- which, of course, they found. And that's the ONLY form the FBI was interested in in November 1963. Other rifle orders were meaningless then, just as they are meaningless now.

But in my "SHOW ME THE RIFLE" example, I feel the reason we haven't seen any other "C2766" Carcano rifles is because none of those do exist (other than the one marked CE139 in the National Archives).

But, maybe in the year 2499, some old gun buff will produce another ancient Mannlicher-Carcano with the number C2766 stamped on it.

But I'm not holding my breath. (Are you?)

But, of course, even if I'm dead wrong, and there are 150 additional Carcano 91/38 rifles in the world today with the number "C2766" on them, it's totally immaterial anyway.

Why?

Because we know that only ONE particular Carcano rifle with C2766 on it was the weapon that killed President Kennedy in Dallas. And that one particular C2766 rifle is CE139, the one with Lee Oswald's prints on it that was found in the building where Lee Oswald worked.

------------

RELATED "C2766" TALK:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-8.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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Purvis actually made a case for that in the rifle he himself had in his own posession. But DVP won't get into that.

And of course, Lattimer said he had a rifle with the same serial number as Oswald's. Until he was alerted to the fact that he just made a faux pas. Then he changed his story.

Then, of course, there is the testimony in the WC as to this very fact.

And then there is the FBI report which said there was a rifle with the same number but without the prefix.

Now if there was a rifle with the same number without the prefix, then this almost guarantees there was a rifle with that number with the prefix, since as Purvis and Armstrong prove the serial numbers were given and designated out at the city's factory location.

More DiEugenio Drivel. All bluster and BS from Jimbo re the serial numbers (as usual).

We all know about the FBI (Hoover) report stating that a "2766" rifle existed. But that is not the same as another "C2766" at all. The prefix makes it unique (my whole point from before).

SERIAL NUMBER (Wikipedia) -- "...A unique number assigned for identification which varies from its successor or predecessor by a fixed discrete integer value."

And John Canal proved (via correspondence he had with Dr. John Lattimer in 2004) that Lattimer's "C2766" remark in his 1980 book was merely an error that could not be corrected before the book went to press. [Fully discussed HERE. DiEugenio, naturally, thinks Lattimer was lying through his teeth.]

And if Purvis REALLY had in his possession a second C2766 MC 91/38 gun -- we'd have certainly seen pictures of that gun plastered all over the Internet by now. But I sure haven't seen any such proof via photos. Have you, Jimmy?

I believe that no other C2766 Carcano has ever existed. And, as mentioned before, I challenge anyone to locate two rifles of ANY make or model that bear the exact same serial number. To date, I've never even seen that type of generic proof re duplicate serial numbers on rifles. Have you, Jimmy? If so, please show us.

My belief is that Robert Frazier of the FBI was correct when he said this to the WC:

MR. EISENBERG -- "Have you been able to confirm that the serial number

on this weapon is the only such number on such a weapon?"

MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, it is."

--------------

MORE RIFLE CHAT:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-6.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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Hang on a second here DVP... hijack some other thread...

this is NOT about the number of C2766 rifles ....

This is about any one of the other 99 FC rilfes with seriel numbers being sold as C20-T750 by Kleins from April 62 thru Feb 63...

so that the SINGLE AND ONLY EXAMPLE of this ever happening does not become the cornerstone of your evidence....

This is very simply and you are trying to confuse the issue....

1) Do you believe C20-T750 was ordered and purchased by anyone other than HIDELL between 4/62 and 2/63?

2) Do you blieve that any orders for said Item # would have the Seriel # and VC # written on it JUST LIKE THE HIDELL ORDER?

3) Do you contend that starting with the cancellation of the TS order, C20-T750 orders were shipped a scoped 40" FC EACH TIOME and that 40" FC rifle seriel numbers woulld be written on these orders?

4) Do you understand that if they WERE SHIPPED FC RIFLES this would provew that Kleins WAS shipping the FC and you can now prove it

5) Do you also understand that if the rifles shipped for C20-T750 orders was NOT the 40"FC but some other rifle(s), your case for Kleins having shipped a FC to HIDELL is severely weakened?

I just want to see examples of other C20-T750 orders and you and GMack come flying out of the woodwork with your non-sequitor and ad hominem....

He does not see the value of reviewing the shipping patterns of Kleins related to this Item #, as expected...

You simply change the subject... also as expected....

The questions above represent a test of your common sense... simple logic: If A=B and B=C, and C=D... LOGIC tells us that A=D, B=D, A=C, etc...

Logic sand Geometry are very similiar....

If C20-T750 = M91/38FC and FC's were shipped on all C20-T750 orders during the months in question then logic tells us

that we can trace each FC rifle via an order for C20-T750 between 4/62 and 3/63... and since these orders include the HIDELL ORDER, HIDELL must have been sent an FC

If no FC rifles were ever sent for C20-T750 orders... that we cannot see a single seriel # of a FC rifle on one of these orders

HIDELL's order sticks out like a sore thumb

Even you should be able to follow that... right?

DJ

Edited by David Josephs

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