David Josephs Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) So here we are 5 years later and Chris D and I have done some amazing work. The discovery and acquisition of Tom Purvis' copies of the Robert West Surveys of Nov 26, Dec 2-4 and Feb 1964 conclusively proves the FBI move the path of the limo, doctored CE884, and created an explanation for the Zfilm which places limo at later frames behind the limo in earlier frames simply due to CE884's adjustments. The question to ask is whether the exact position of the limo and the frame related to that position have any real relationship to each other. Shaneyfelt repeated states that nothing important happens until z161 or z171 which is essentially the "beginning of the film". CE884 changed frames 168-171 to 161-166 thereby moving the limo at 171 to the point we see it at 166. JFK in the zfilm from 161 - 166 is in the same line of sight as JFK at the z168 - z171 metal stakes and represent the same distance which in turn equates to 3mph. We can pinpoint the location of the limo in the zfilm... but the relationship to frame #'s and everything the WCR states about that film and those locations is complete nonsense. I'm not trying to discredit anyone's work... all that I am saying is that an altered 18.3fps Zfilm from a 48fps original - when the only other setting on the camera is 16fps - may not be the best source material to determine anything other than the conspiracy to hide the truth. There's also the FACT that Z313 as we see it was determined to be the 2nd shot in 3 surveys prior to the one published Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; because we were able to determine the speed of the camera, and thereby accurately determine the length of time it takes for a specific number of frames to run through the camera at this 18.3 frames per second, and having located these frame positions in the street, we took the farthest distance point we had in the Zapruder film which was frame 161 through frame 313. Edited March 1, 2018 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 22 hours ago, David Josephs said: The discovery and acquisition of Tom Purvis' copies of the Robert West Surveys of Nov 26, Dec 2-4 and Feb 1964 conclusively proves the FBI move the path of the limo, doctored CE884, and created an explanation for the Zfilm which places limo at later frames behind the limo in earlier frames simply due to CE884's adjustments. And, if one keeps that "moved" limo path in mind and applies that same principle to Myers recreation around the corner, one will see that Myers uses the "rear tire" as opposed to "JFK within the limo" as his switched path. And in doing, the distance his marker (rear tire) has to travel is much less than JFK travels. Of course that distance difference (starting at the corner of the County Records Building) is made up by the bogus fps rate applied to the entire Towner film. Which, in this case equals 1.8 seconds time difference =19.77ft (radius difference). That 19.77ft over a one second time frame (13.44mph) just happens to equal the speed of the limo from z156-z166 previously plotted in prior postings via the West plats. It also equals the approx limo speed (13.54mph) from z133-z166 (33frames) plotted, using the extant zfilm. And, that 1.8seconds of time converts to 33 frames using 18.3fps. When sliced up at 1.8 seconds, 19.77ft = 10.98 ft per sec = 7.47mph + (3.74 mph = speed of limo z168-z171 via CE884) = 11.21 mph = Shaneyfelt's testimony for average limo speed(11.2mph) for Z161-Z313. It's very obvious what he did to support the WC conclusions. What isn't so obvious is if many understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 David I agree. The Zap film has morphed into something that is basically a shell of itself. About the closest we can get to the original is the copy LIFE gave to the Warren Commission in early 1964. But even that copy was not complete and difficult to view ... frames before Z171 were missing, Z208-Z212 were reportedly destroyed by a lab technician who worked for LIFE and the film is grainy and in black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) On 8/31/2017 at 1:26 PM, George Sawtelle said: David I agree. The Zap film has morphed into something that is basically a shell of itself. About the closest we can get to the original is the copy LIFE gave to the Warren Commission in early 1964. But even that copy was not complete and difficult to view ... frames before Z171 were missing, Z208-Z212 were reportedly destroyed by a lab technician who worked for LIFE and the film is grainy and in black and white. It is my understanding of the situation that by the time a film reached NPIC Sat night, it was already altered. Ask yourself... Max Philips sent a film to DC Friday night. Chief Rowley should have had it by 2-3 am. As you look thru any timeline - try to find any reference to THAT film after it arrives in DC... From Chris Scally's timeline http://jfklancer.com/zapruder/Tabular_Z Film_Chronology.html 9:55 pm 11/22 Phillips sends one copy to Secret Service Chief Rowley in Washington, and retains other copy (0186) for Sorrels CD87, 66; Wrone, 28, 279-280; Thompson “Six Seconds…”, 311-2 12 pm 11/23 Brugioni meets two Secret Service agents with 8mm copy of film Horne, 1231, Wrone, 28-9 If Chris can comment on what he believes happens to the Rowley Film (not offered in this timeline) it would be appreciated... I've exchanged emails and discussed this with Chris but cannot find any conclusions.... I also do not agree with the 9:55pm event since the letter from Phillips does not include Zapruder's "Best Copy" from the day.. "The third print was forwarded"... Sorrels has 2... Zapruder only one... A film is not accounted for... the 8mm copy being shown assumes a 4th copy with 1 going to Rowley, 1 to FBI, 1 to Sorrels and 2 (0183 and copy) to Zapruder... that's 1 original and 4 copies, not 3. At least that's how I see it... 9 am 11/23 Zapruder shows 8mm copy of film to Stolley and others in his office. Zapruder sells print rights to Life Wrone, 33; Trask, 128-9; Schwartz SFM interview; Horne 1200 I contend this was the original or 0184. It was not until 10pm Saturday that Dino gets the film he worked upon. Chris has shown me conclusively how the 48fps film was cut down to 18-18.3fps as well as assisting in understanding the amazing math involved within the measurements and the lies of Shaneyfelt, Frazier and Gauthier. Edited October 31, 2017 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) David On Saturday, the weekend of the assassination, Brugioni says he worked with the original, unaltered. I believe the original came from LIFE in Chicago. The second set of briefing boards, for which McMahon made the 4x5 prints, was the altered original. McMahon worked on the film on Sunday. That film came from Hawkeye Works Lab in New York. So what happened was after Brugioni worked on his set of briefing boards, the original was sent to Hawkeye Works, was altered on Sunday and then sent to McMahon for his set of briefing boards, which he made on Sunday night. So you are correct, the original was altered the weekend of the assassination. BUT, a big but, no pun intended, a copy of the altered original film as a motion picture never was released to the public or to anyone until the late 70's when Geraldo showed it on national TV. Yes, some people, notably Rather and Brugioni had seen the original motion picture of the film, and both say the original is different from the extant film, the film that was archived for years in Washington. The reason the altered original film or a copy of it never seen as a motion picture until the 70's is because the CIA had no confidence in the alterations. They felt that if it was released that private film experts would want to study the original altered film and would discover that it had been altered. Similar to what we have today. BTW, the government will not allow any review of the film archived in Wash DC. So what the Warren Commission saw`was a copy of the original that had not been altered except made grainy and difficult to see any detail. And it was missing frames. So in a sense it had been altered but it wasn't the original film that was altered by Hawkeye Works. That film was kept under wraps until the late 70's. Edited September 1, 2017 by George Sawtelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 David See Horne's interview at jfkfacts.org/rewinding-the-zapruder-film/ where Horne gives his take on why the CIA did not want the altered original or a copy of it to be seen. A few years back Horne asked the federal government to allow him to study the Zap film archived in Wash DC and they refused `his request. Our government will not allow anyone to study the archived film. LIFE must have had a copy of one of the original copies made in Dallas at Kodac on the day of the assassination. It was probably the film sent to the Warren Commission. The altered Zap film then became the official record and the copies made in Dallas on Friday were destroyed. IMO, a copy was made of one of the copies that were destroyed. It would have been a second generation copy and that may be why it's so grainy. See Vol 18, Warren Commission, for prints of the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 David There was another alteration made after the Hawkeye Works alterations. It was done between Hawkeye Works and Geraldo's release of the film. That alteration was the elimination of the effects of the first shot, the shot that occurred as the limo made the turn onto Elm from Houston. The first shot hit Kennedy in the back however on the extant Zap film Kennedy is not seen arching his back. All we see is Kennedy waving and smiling. Frames were added and subtracted from the film to eliminate the effect of the first shot. We had a researcher post here saying people on the south side of Elm at the intersection of Elm and Houston were seen in some frames and missing in others. His research supports the removal and addition of frames. I don't know how many frames were added or subtracted. The official version now is the loud sound was not a rifle shot, it was a backfire of a motorcycle. Frames before Z173 were missing from the film LIFE gave to the Warren Commission for their study. What that means is that the effect of the first shot on Kennedy had not been altered at Hawkeye Works, or at the point at which the film was given to the Warren Commission. The elimination of the first shot had to have been done after the Warren Commission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 George... You post with such definitiveness Are you presenting opinions - if so please offer the supporting evidence... if these are facts... please cite a reference beyond Horne's own speculating... I understood Horne wanted to test the film to see if it was daylight or artificial light film... they didn't allow him to do that. The key here is Philip's note stating to disregard the personal scenes on the 8mm film... If a copy of the 16mm original was split into a combined A>B film in 8mm format, any one of the 5 films (0183-0187... I include 0184) could be that film. Dino claims it was "original" which jives perfectly with my theory that he got an altered version of 0184. In all your reading have you found the chain of possession of the Rowley film after it reaches Rowley? - which for me remains a key to understanding who facilitated the conspiracy. I have not read a single account in anyone's account or timeline... We are to remember that CE399 only comes into being when Rowley hands it to Todd an hour and a half after Frasier already received it. SS Chief Rowley handles both CE399 and the Zfilm on Friday night.... despite his agents telling the FBI during the autopsy that yet another bullet is lodged behind JFK's right ear... If Rowley has the 8mm version of 0184... especially at 48fps... Most anything could have been done to that film prior to Dino. Zapruder departed Kodak's Dallas Plant at about 9 PM, and turned over two of the three first day copies (IOW Zapruder kept 0183 and a best copy) to the Secret Service. One was sent to Washington, D.C. — to Secret Service Headquarters — by Dallas Secret Service agent Max Phillips, who placed it on a commercial flight late Friday night. It arrived in Washington after midnight, and sometime before dawn, on Saturday, 11/23/63. The second u201Csame day copyu201D relinquished to the Secret Service by Zapruder on Friday night was loaned by the Secret Service to the FBI in Dallas the next day, on Saturday; and then flown by the Dallas office of the FBI to FBI headquarters, in Washington, on Saturday evening. [7] Yet as we both know... Zapruder had TWO (2) films not 1. In that wonderful article Horne does not again address this film which was in the hands of the SS Chief in the nation's capitol sometime between 2am and 4am. In essence this film seems to have vanished? Time and date: This event commenced about 10 PM, EST, on Saturday evening, 11/23/63, when two Secret Service officials (estimated to be in their late 30s or early 40s) brought an 8 mm home movie of the JFK assassination to the CIA's National Photographic Interpretation Center, located in building 213 in the Washington Navy Yard. (At no time could Mr. Brugioni recall either of their names.) They had not yet seen the film themselves, and Mr. Brugioni is of the distinct impression that they had just gotten off of an airplane and had come directly to NPIC from the airport. They did not volunteer where they had come from, or where the film had come from. The event at NPIC went on all night long, until about dawn on Sunday, November 24th. [Note: The home movie of the assassination brought to NPIC by the two Secret Service officials was not copied as a motion picture that night; nor did NPIC even have the capability to do so.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 George ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) David We have an advantage in trying to solve this case. We know for a fact that the crime was covered-up. Horne's perspective comes from that direction. So does mine and so does your's. When we speculate about the details of the cover-up and we put some logic behind it we are probably pretty close, even absent documentation. Brugioni's briefing boards were never`seen by anyone outside of his staff and himself. In fact they have disappeared. However McMahon's briefing boards were seen by others. If you are to cover-up the crime, would you show Brugioni's or McMahon's briefing boards? Horne says McMahon's briefing boards were based on the altered original film, which to me is logical given what happened. When Horne says the alterations were crude he is mainly referring to the black-out used to cover-up the hole in the back of Kennedy's head. He believes that when researchers see the back of Kennedy's head blacked-out with something similar to black paint they will naturally want to inspect the film. The CIA would avoid showing the altered original film to anyone for inspection simply because inspection of the film would blow the cover-up. They finally allowed the film to be released to the public in late 70's since time had eroded the public's interest in the assassination (or so they thought). However the government has not allowed anyone to study the altered original film currently archived in Wash DC. My belief is that the motion picture of the film is the entire film complete, not necessarily a film we would see in a theater. I'm not familiar with the issue of the fourth copy and therefore I won't comment on it. Edited September 3, 2017 by George Sawtelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 David With all the documentation given in the Warren Report at some point a definite conclusion should be made. The problem with the Warren Report is that illogical and flat out wrong conclusions were made. Is it any wonder that many don't believe their conclusions? I very seldom rely on documentation supplied by the Warren Commission. It has been proven time and time again that evidence was faked and manufactured. Eye witness testimony was changed after a witness signed his or her testimony. How do we know that the note "History of Evidence" was written on 22 Nov 1963? The writing is not consistent, some is written and some is printed. I don't see a signature on that note do you? The note on the right has a signature and date but it seems to conflict with the note on the left. Maybe it is an honest mistake but how can we accept evidence with mistakes as such. In a court of law I would doubt evidence with obvious mistakes would be accepted. I prefer to believe work done by Talbot, Kinzer, Douglas, Fonzi, or Thomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Scally Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 On Thursday, David Josephs posted (above): "If Chris can comment on what he believes happens to the Rowley Film (not offered in this timeline) it would be appreciated... I've exchanged emails and discussed this with Chris but cannot find any conclusions...." David: I’ve just seen your post (quoted above), so apologies for the delay in replying. I’ve effectively “retired” from JFK assassination research since early last year, but I still like to keep in touch with developments. As a result of my “retirement”, however, most of my files have been boxed-up and put into storage, so I can only give you a response as best I can from memory. The Rowley Film, as you accurately describe it, was one of what I believe were two copies of the film, given by Zapruder to Max Phillips on the night of the assassination (one of the two copies of the film was in a Kodak film box, with the number #0186 on it – I got a photo of the box from NARA some years ago; as I recall, they found it for me in a Secret Service file). Phillips sent one copy to Chief Rowley later that night, on a Navy jet which left Dallas Hensley Field Naval Air Station on Mountain Creek Road (or Lane?) almost certainly prior to midnight. There was a story in circulation at one time that Zapruder himself had taken the film to the air station, but I was never able to verify that. The second copy given to Phillips, as I recall, was given to Forrest Sorrels (or his secretary, Lillian Ryan?) probably early the next morning, November 23. As I recall, the copy Sorrels received was a 16mm-wide copy (ie. An unslit version), as his boss, Insp. Kelley supposedly loaned it the FBI on the Saturday morning. Also, I seem to recall, the FBI kept that copy of the film, and – having failed to get it copied in Dallas - sent it to headquarters on an American Airlines flight from Dallas to Baltimore early on Saturday evening. The Secret Service had to ask for its return on Monday afternoon, and eventually got it back from the FBI sometime on Tuesday. This would also explain why Sorrels didn’t have a copy of the film over the weekend – he was depending on Zapruder to project his (Zapruder’s) copy of the film for him over the weekend. Unfortunately, despite many years – and I do mean “years” – of searching, I could never fully and completely document the chain of possession of that Rowley Copy of the film after it arrived in Washington - or indeed, of any of the other first-day copies either. While I have this opportunity, I should add that I also made a determined effort over an extended period of time to find out what version (or versions) of the film Life obtained on the morning of Saturday, November 23. Having spoken to a number of the individuals concerned (including Richard Stolley and – via a third party – the Life Editor in Chicago to whom the film was sent on Saturday midday/early afternoon), I believe that Stolley sent the camera original film to Life in Chicago on a commercial flight from Love Field in Dallas to Medway (or Midway?) airport in Chicago, a belief supported by the person to whom it was addressed in Chicago. This supposed camera-original film was copied by/for Life in Chicago on Saturday evening, while they were preparing the November 29 issue. Three B&W copies were made, and Rollie Zavada has told me that he is fully confident - having examined one or more of those copies – that it was made from a camera-original film, and not a copy. And that leads me to another element of the story. In 2011, I had the very good fortune to be given access to a copy of one of those 16mm black-and-white copies, which was clearly and undoubtedly made before it was slit to 8mm width or damaged by Life or anyone else. I was able to examine the film at great length, and because it was in unslit format, I could view the two sides of the film simultaneously (which is a little disconcerting the first time you view it, as the image on one side is moving in one direction, while the other half of the screen is moving simultaneously in the opposite direction!). However, viewing the film this way also allows you to view the complete - and rarely (if ever?) seen - footage of Zapruder’s grandchildren playing in his back yard, as well as the full Lillian Rogers “office” scene (Side A), while looking at the assassination side (Side B of the film at the same time. Examining the film this way shows that there is no splice or other damage on Side B, but perhaps more importantly, it clearly shows not discontinuity or unnatural movement on Side A either. It is that, more than anything else, which has convinced me that the film was unaltered and un-tampered with at that point in time – the evening of Saturday November 23, in Chicago. To return to your original question, I think the problem is that we do not have what can honestly and incontrovertibly be described as a complete, documented and verifiable chain-of-possession for ANY of the copies of the Zapruder film, or even the original itself. However, by working backwards to as close as possible to around 9 pm on the evening of the assassination, when Zapruder left Kodak with his original and copies, we can make what I can only describe as “educated guesses” about where each print of the film was at any given time. I know that isn’t what we would like, but it unfortunately seems as if that is all we will ever be able to do. Sorry for the length of this reply, David (et al), but I was working from memory and tried to include as much as I could remember, without getting into any of the authenticity issues. If you wish, I’ll try to answer any other questions you may have, but I must emphasize that my responses will only be good as my memory! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 On 8/30/2017 at 12:53 PM, James DiEugenio said: One of the worst shows in recent memory on the JFK case. Surpassed only by Gary's later show on Jack Ruby. Here is my three part review of that one. https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/jfk-the-ruby-connection-gary-mack-s-follies-part-one I think that one was the worst up until Tracking Oswald, which set a new standard for JFK BS. I agree. IMO, Gary Mack may have set me up for a fall because of the SPEED channel documentary I did in 2004, which was CT-based. If the show wasn't bad enough, the press release was even worse. The mindset seemed to be to destroy the CTs and re-establish the failed WCR once-and-for-all. Of course, that didn't work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 On 8/31/2017 at 3:26 PM, George Sawtelle said: David I agree. The Zap film has morphed into something that is basically a shell of itself. About the closest we can get to the original is the copy LIFE gave to the Warren Commission in early 1964. But even that copy was not complete and difficult to view ... frames before Z171 were missing, Z208-Z212 were reportedly destroyed by a lab technician who worked for LIFE and the film is grainy and in black and white. I agree. I call them the "Z-films". Who knows what really happened to them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Yes Pam, we are on the same page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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