Jump to content
The Education Forum
Sign in to follow this  
David Von Pein

The Secret Service And CE399

Recommended Posts

Come on David. Take a course in critical thinking.

A much better idea would be for Bob Harris to take a lengthy course in:

"Not Everybody Was Lying In The JFK Case."

You don't use one of Todd's own reports to prove that he was telling the truth.

LOL.gif Hilarious.

Does the above Bob Harris rule therefore mean that I and my fellow LNers are "off the hook" (so to speak) when it comes to police officials saying things in their OWN REPORTS that I don't think are correct? Such as Seymour Weitzman's original affidavit where he calls the rifle a 7.65 Mauser? (After all, how can I possibly know for certain if Weitzman was, indeed, telling the truth when he said "Mauser" there? Maybe he was lying. How can I know? And how can Bob Harris know either, especially when looking at his quote above?)

And does this also mean that the conspiracy kooks of the world will shut up about the lack of an FD-302 report for Odum's 6/12/64 interviews with Tomlinson and Wright?

Or do you have a different set of rules for any reports written by Bardwell Odum vs. the reports written by Elmer Todd?

IOW--even if an FD-302 for Odum's 6/12 interview WAS unearthed, why would any CTer accept that report as the TRUTH, in light of these words spoken by Robert Harris?:

"You don't use one of Todd's own reports to prove that he was telling the truth."

That's like say[ing] OJ was innocent because he wrote a report saying he didn't kill anybody. .... And...it wouldn't matter whether he [Todd] etched his initials into the stretcher bullet or not, because those initials are not on CE399.

Yes, they are. You just can't see them in the NARA photos.

Plus:

Haven't you ever wondered WHY the evil FBI (including Elmer Todd, who you pretty much compared to a murderer named O.J. Simpson in your despicable comparison above) didn't just scratch the initials "ELT" into the nose of CE399 after they planted that bullet into the official evidence pile connected to the JFK case?

Why DIDN'T those evil bastards--who would stop at nothing, it seems, to frame Oswald--perform that easy task of scrawling Todd's initials into that bullet (and Rowley's and Johnsen's too, for that matter)?

Per the conspiracy clowns, Hoover's boys would go so far as to create a totally false document seen in CE2011, wherein they just MADE UP an interview conducted by Bardwell Odum (which could blow up in their lying faces at any time thereafter), but they wouldn't merely scratch some initials into a bullet that is a complete and total fraud to begin with??

They were dastardly enough to fake the bullet itself by placing it into the official record of the case, but they evidently weren't dastardly enough to scribble some initials into that same fake bullet?

What was that you said a minute ago about "critical thinking", Mr. Harris?

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The marks that I am referring to are not over Fraziers, they are below and to the right of RF.

initials2.pnginitials2x.png

We have tools available to us that John Hunt did not use(I think). He had the photos and a magnifying glass. We have the digital image that we can adjust the contrast, brightness and perform other enhancements.

Found this post by Jean Davison which tells us that someone else put their initials on the bullet. His name is Joseph Nicol, a firearms expert from Illinois.

nicolinitials.png

Edited by Mike Rago

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, right, Jimbo. Like the NARA is going to allow me to just waltz right in and examine CE399.

Get real.

Fact is: John Hunt DID NOT examine the bullet itself. He examined the same photos that have been posted in this very thread. And those photos (as good as they might be) are not definitive proof that Todd did not mark CE399.

Plus: There are TWO separate (and corroborating) official FBI documents that tell us that Elmer Todd DID mark the bullet (CD7 and CE2011). And CD7 confirms that Todd marked the bullet on the day of the assassination itself.

Spit on those records if you want to; call them fake if you want to (and you do want to, naturally). But I'm not willing to do so. Period.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And here you have the same pattern repeated: "I am going to prove all those critics deluded." Well, go ahead and do it then. And if you have no intention of doing it, then please leave. Since it's just more of your empty bombast: Sound and fury signifying nothing.

LOL.gif

Pot...meet Pa Kettle.

Reminder: Jim D. is a person who seriously thinks that Jim Garrison was right re the JFK case. And Jimbo's also a person who is deluded enough to actually think that BOTH Buell Frazier and Linnie Randle just MADE UP the paper bag that each of those witnesses said they saw Oswald carrying on 11/22/63.

Talk about "empty bombast...sound and fury signifying nothing". Jim and all other conspiracy theorists have a patent on such bombast.

Another LNer at another forum asked a good question a few months back when he asked: What have the JFK conspiracy theorists really accomplished? Anything of significance whatsoever? (Other than "bombast" and speculative theorizing that never ends?)

Food for thought as the 50th approaches.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And here you have the same pattern repeated: "I am going to prove all those critics deluded." Well, go ahead and do it then. And if you have no intention of doing it, then please leave. Since it's just more of your empty bombast: Sound and fury signifying nothing.

LOL.gif

Pot...meet Pa Kettle.

Reminder: Jim D. is a person who seriously thinks that Jim Garrison was right re the JFK case. And Jimbo's also a person who is deluded enough to actually think that BOTH Buell Frazier and Linnie Randle just MADE UP the paper bag that each of those witnesses said they saw Oswald carrying on 11/22/63.

Talk about "empty bombast...sound and fury signifying nothing". Jim and all other conspiracy theorists have a patent on such bombast.

Another LNer at another forum asked a good question a few months back when he asked: What have the JFK conspiracy theorists really accomplished? Anything of significance whatsoever? (Other than "bombast" and speculative theorizing that never ends?)

Food for thought as the 50th approaches.

Interesting how DVP can talk to us about Jim, Frazier, Randle, Oswald, paper bags, FOOD, the 50th... yet when it comes to dealing with the FACT that the men who had the opportunity to mark the shell MAY ACTUALLY HAVE, DAVID !! Except the bullet that Rowley gives to Todd is NOT the same one he got from Johnsen... He says so himself...

So the bullet that has Todd and Frasier and Cunningham's initials is a 6.5mm round weighing 159.7 grains or so... that ROWLEY GAVE TO TODD

The bullet that was found by Tomlinson and given to Wright and given to Johnsen MAY have had initials on it... who knows... THAT BULLET never made it out of Rowley's office... if it ever got there.... the world at large has never seen the bullet that Tomlinson gave to Wright....

ANYBODY can initial an empty envelope and tell us whatever they want WAS inside.... if CE399 WAS in that envelope, why do Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley not identify it as such? If they NEVER SAW THE BULLET in the envelope... initialing it does not change what's inside...

Stay with CE399 DVP and try to wiggle your way out of the SS's either LACK of proper procedure in creating a chain of evidence for this bullet, OR

Rowley perpetrating a crime by replacing THAT BULLET with what becomes CE399.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stay with CE399, DVP, and try to wiggle your way out of the SS's either LACK of proper procedure in creating a chain of evidence for this bullet, OR Rowley perpetrating a crime by replacing THAT BULLET with what becomes CE399.


In your "switched bullet" scenario which has Chief Rowley being the main criminal, please tell me just exactly how and when the United States Secret Service gained possession of Lee Harvey Oswald's C2766 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in order to perpetrate this grand fraud and switcheroo of the bullets?

Did James Rowley just happen to have an expended bullet from Oswald's gun sitting in a cabinet drawer in his office in Washington prior to 9:00 PM EST on the evening of 11/22/63?

The fact is....

The silly cloak-and-dagger scenario that has the FBI or Secret Service performing a convenient "switch" of the bullets on November 22 has always been a flimsy and wholly unprovable tale served up by desperate conspiracists in their persistent efforts to paint Oswald as an innocent patsy.

We know that Oswald's rifle remained in Dallas until approx. 11:45 PM CST on the night of JFK's assassination. And we also know that the stretcher bullet was transported from Dallas to Washington aboard Air Force One by SS agent Richard E. Johnsen, with that AF1 flight departing Dallas Love Field at 2:47 PM CST.

So what I want to know is how it was even remotely possible for the FBI (or, as David Josephs suggested above, the Secret Service, led by Chief Jim Rowley) to have even had any opportunity to "switch" any bullets prior to midnight on 11/22/63?

Obviously, there was no such bullet-switching opportunity, because Oswald's rifle wasn't even in Washington until (at the earliest) about 3:30 or 4:00 AM EST on November 23rd. Therefore, nobody in Washington could have had a chance to fire any bullets through Rifle C2766 (in order to start framing Lee Oswald with them) until early in the morning of 11/23/63.

David J. will probably now simply say that CE399 was obtained by the FBI at a LATER time and then inserted into the official record of the case. But that's not what Mr. Josephs claimed above, because above he speculated that Rowley of the SS was possibly "perpetrating a crime by replacing THAT BULLET with what becomes CE399". Ergo, Rowley, who was in Washington, would have had to have had access to Oswald's Carcano rifle prior to 9:00 PM EST on November 22 (when we know the gun was still in Dallas). Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agent Richard Johnsen writes that he received a bullet from Mr. Wright at Parkland Hospial

(Click image to enlarge)

wrightjohnsen.png

Edited by Mike Rago

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There's no credible evidence that Wright had anything to do with finding any bullet.

Richard Johnsen TOLD US that he got the bullet from O.P. Wright at Parkland, via Johnsen's typewritten note that he wrote at the White House on 11/22:

Richard-Johnsen-Note-Regarding-Stretcher-Bullet.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nathan Pools co-discovery of the stretcher bullet. He gave the bullet to Tomlinson. Pool says Tomlinson gave the bullet to either Wright or a SS agent.

From SS Agent Johnsen's statement he received the bullet from Wright. Therefore, Tomlinson must have given the bullet to Wright. This is the chain of possession.

pool4k.png

Full Nathan Pool report

http://jfk.hood.edu/...han/Item 03.pdf

The bullet was copper in color...

There is a problem here.

Tomlinson says he picked up the bullet. Pool says he picked up the bullet.

Who picked up the bullet? No who is on first!

Edited by Mike Rago

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to both Pool and Tomlinson they took an unidentified SS agent up the elevator leaving the other stretcher unattended.

I wonder if there were OTHER Chain of Evidence problems found in CE2011??

How about those pesky Tippit hulls...

Seems the same problem occurs here... Davis' and Benavidas cannot ID the hulls, Poe cannot ID hulls...

The only MARKS on the hulls are by men who were NOT AT THE CRIME SCENE... Barnes and Dhority...

The only marks on CE399? Men who were NOT IN THE SAME STATE AS WHERE THE CRIME WAS COMMITTED...

and yet these items of evidence are the cornerstone of the WCR and LNer arguments the world over.

If they cannot be traced back to the location where they were found - doesn't that remove them from being considered

AUTHENTICATED EVIDENCE?

Isn't this what Gary Mack calls HARD EVIDENCE of a conspiracy - where the only identification of the evidence comes from those not involved in the gathering of it?

DJ

post-1587-0-77351900-1349295337_thumb.jpg

Edited by David Josephs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There's no credible evidence that Wright had anything to do with finding any bullet.

For Pete sake, Lee, where on Earth can you possibly go with the theory that has O.P. Wright never even handling (or seeing) any bullet at all at Parkland on 11/22/63?

Geez, didn't Wright TELL Josiah Thompson in 1966 about seeing a bullet?* Wright said it was a "pointy" missile (of course, as we all know, he was wrong about that part), but you really want to purport that Wright saw NO BULLET at all at Parkland? Good grief, how silly.

You're as bad as Jimmy "Buell & Linnie Mae Made Up The Paper Bag Story" DiEugenio.

Also:

O.P. Wright's 1966 remark to Josiah Thompson (about the stretcher bullet being a "pointed" bullet) is one of the conspiracy-proving lynchpins in the whole case for most theorists, which means that if Wright never really saw ANY bullet at all on 11/22/63, it means that there's one less CTer (Lee Farley) who can now utilize the "pointy bullet" argument in defense of the theory that the stretcher bullets were switched.

Because Farley now wants to say that Wright never saw ANY bullet at all--"pointy" or otherwise. Which would mean, of course, that Wright was lying through his teeth during his interview with Tink Thompson in 1966.* It's very odd that a CTer would want to travel down that road. But Lee Farley has just done it.

* It also means that O.P. Wright was lying through his teeth some more--on national television--when he was interviewed by CBS News in 1967 for the CBS special "A CBS News Inquiry: The Warren Report". Sixteen minutes into Part 4 of that four-part program, Wright discusses at some length about how he saw and took possession of the stretcher bullet on Nov. 22. Wright even says he "picked up the bullet and put it in my pocket".

I've reached an interesting conclusion recently....

Time is the worst thing in the world when it comes to the outrageous theories concocted by JFK conspiracy theorists.

What I mean by that is:

Give a JFK conspiracy theorist enough time, and then just sit back and watch the additional theories start to flow like a river from their computers, sans a stitch of supportable evidence to back them up.

Two good examples of this type of behavior have been exhibited just today in this very thread:

1.) David Josephs accused James Rowley of possibly playing fast and loose with the bullets at the White House on the night of the assassination. (Up until today, I had never once heard any CTer accuse Rowley HIMSELF of being part of any conspiracy plot or cover-up.)

2.) Lee Farley now seems to like the silly idea of O.P. Wright never having seen (or handled) ANY BULLET AT ALL at Parkland Hospital on Nov. 22nd.

What will more time bring? One can only imagine.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geez, didn't Wright TELL Josiah Thompson in 1967 about seeing a bullet?* Wright said it was a "pointy" missile (of course, as we all know, he was wrong about that part)......

Josiah Thompson told Rex Bradford:

REX: Can you talk about your visits to Parkland Hospital and what you found out first of all about that bullet which mysteriously showed up on a hospital stretcher after the assassination?

JOSIAH: You bet. We'll have to rewind back until - this was early November 1966. I'd been hired as a consultant for Life Magazine and we were all working on a story that appeared in late November 1966 called "Grounds for Reasonable Doubt," a reappraisal of the Kennedy assassination. By that time Parkland Hospital was basically an armed fort in terms of journalists and people interested in the Kennedy assassination. They had - Parkland Hospital had really had it. Their security people were keeping the press and other people out. Life Magazine got me and, I think a, uh, another light-stringer named Patsy Swank into Parkland Hospital, and I interviewed Darrell Tomlinson, who found the bullet, and I interviewed the Security Director, O.P. Wright, who was handed the bullet by Tomlinson, and who subsequently then gave the bullet to a Secret Service agent by the name of Johnsen. I was interested in Wright because as a ex-deputy Chief of Police and a cop for twenty five or thirty years, Wright had an educated eye for bullets. So I had brought along for that interview, a bunch of photographs of bullets, .38's, the ballistic comparison rounds for 399, and then 399 itself. So I started putting these photographs out and asking Wright what the bullet he found looked like. I put out the .38's, and he said, "eh, I don't - the .38's didn't look like that." And then I put out the ballistic comparison rounds, and he said, "no, no - it was pointed." And then I put a photograph of 399, and Wright said, "no... no you know, can't you hear, I said it was pointed."

REX: (laughs)

JOSIAH: At that point then he reaches into his desk and pulls out a unfired projectile, I think it was a 30/30, with a pointed tip, and he said, "now that's what I'm talking about. It looked like that." And I looked at the 30/30 round, and gulped, and said "look can I keep this?" And he said, "yeah, sure." So I put it into my pocket and photographed it that night. The photograph is in Dealey - is in Six Seconds. That bullet is pointed. And Wright certainly had an educated eye for the bullet, the so-called stretcher bullet, and he had it in his possession for a few minutes in any case. So that raised the whole possibility that the bullet in evidence as Commission Exhibit 399 is not the bullet found on the stretcher.

http://www.maryferre..._3_-_Transcript

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I've made my feelings known in the past about Tink Thompson so I'll just say it might have been more revealing to have asked O. P. Wright whether his "twenty five or thirty years" as an "ex-Deputy Chief of Police" also gave him an educated eye for correctly completing official paperwork.

Then plonked a copy of his Parkland Hospital Report in front of him...

Lee, I agree with you that there is more to O P Wright than meets the eye. What that is I don't know. I leave it to guys like you to figure it out.

I know he spent some serious time with some of the Secret Service agents in the chaos that was Parkland.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Give me a reasonable explanation why Wright would not mention this in his December report. I've told you his background.

Spouting your usual hot-air insinuations about "conspiracy theorists" being idiots is not a reasonable answer.

Bat a damn eyelid for once in your life.

And why don't you try evaluating the sum total of the evidence--just for once.

Richard Johnsen told us (via CE1024) that he got a bullet from O.P. Wright. And Darrell Tomlinson told Raymond Marcus in 1966 that he gave a bullet to O.P. Wright [page 3 of transcript of telephone call between Marcus & Tomlinson, July 25, 1966; seen below).

Given these facts (provided by TWO OTHER PEOPLE), anyone who suggests that O.P. Wright never saw ANY bullet at Parkland on Nov. 22 is just plain cuckoo.

Marcus-Tomlinson-Interview-Transcript-Page-3.jpg

Complete Transcript:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/marcus-tomlinson-interview-7-25-66.html

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geez, didn't Wright TELL Josiah Thompson in 1967 about seeing a bullet?* Wright said it was a "pointy" missile (of course, as we all know, he was wrong about that part)......

Josiah Thompson told Rex Bradford:

REX: Can you talk about your visits to Parkland Hospital and what you found out first of all about that bullet which mysteriously showed up on a hospital stretcher after the assassination?

JOSIAH: " And then I put out the ballistic comparison rounds, and he said, "no, no - it was pointed." And then I put a photograph of 399, and Wright said, "no... no you know, can't you hear, I said it was pointed."

REX: (laughs)

JOSIAH: At that point then he reaches into his desk and pulls out a unfired projectile, I think it was a 30/30, with a pointed tip, and he said, "now that's what I'm talking about. It looked like that." And I looked at the 30/30 round, and gulped, and said "look can I keep this?" And he said, "yeah, sure." So I put it into my pocket and photographed it that night. The photograph is in Dealey - is in Six Seconds. That bullet is pointed. And Wright certainly had an educated eye for the bullet, the so-called stretcher bullet, and he had it in his possession for a few minutes in any case. So that raised the whole possibility that the bullet in evidence as Commission Exhibit 399 is not the bullet found on the stretcher.

http://www.maryferre..._3_-_Transcript

No matter how you slice it, it was a nearly pristine bullet that is being talked about here. Either CE399 or the one that Wright is talking about.

So either a pristine 30/30 bullet ended up on the stretcher or a pristine 6mm ended up on the stretcher.

So, somehow a bullet was fired from a gun in Dealey Plaza and ended up in Connally's clothes and ultimately on his stretcher in nearly pristine condition.

So you have exactly the same problem(if Wrights description is correct(it is not) ) ... A pristine bullet that ended up in Connally's lap!

Edited by Mike Rago

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...