Gary Mack Explains

[J. Raymond Carroll]

How many times had Lee EVER done such a thing prior to 11/22? Answer: Never

Hello David:

You and I sometimes agree,and I have to say that,

even when we disagree

you are always most pleasant and charming.

I too had never heard about $13 left in Lee's room,

and I would be most surprised if it is true,

because that rooming house had many tenants

and we know nothing about those people

because there never was a real investigation.

So if I were Lee I would not leave any cash lying around.

I think Pat just forgot to take his memory pills today.

But can you please tell us how you are so sure

that Lee had never previously left his money with Marina?

Edited March 10, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Pat Speer]

They found $13.87 in his room. This suggested that he'd planned on returning.

Why are you misrepresenting the evidence, Pat? There was no money found in Oswald's room on Beckley. The $13.87 was found IN OSWALD'S POCKETS when he was arrested. [see WR, Page 745, below.]

I think it's ironic that certain conspiracy theorists are raking Gary Mack over the coals for making a mistake about the note, and here we have Pat Speer making a similar mistake--claiming some money was found somewhere where it definitely was not. Nice hunk of irony there indeed.

And you and Raymond are totally missing the boat regarding Oswald leaving behind his wedding ring and nearly all his cash ($170.00) in Irving on November 22.

How many times had Lee EVER done such a thing prior to 11/22? Answer: Never.

Doesn't that suggest something to you, Pat/J. Raymond?

Sorry, David, but if you look at the Dallas Archives website, you'll see that it specifies that the receipt I posted was for materials recovered from Oswald's rooming house.

43. Property Clerk's Invoice or Receipt, by W. M. Dickey. Property Clerk's Invoice or Receipt for property removed from 1026 North Beckley, (Multipart Form), 11/30/63. 1 page 00000190 01 07 043 0190-001.gif

While I suspect you're right, and that these items were in fact the items pulled from Oswald, this raises another question...why the heck was this list made on the 30th, when the lists of Oswald's clothes, etc, were made on the 22nd?

And where's the list for the other stuff supposedly pulled from his person? Like his wallet? Or the bullets he supposedly carried in his pockets?

Were those items sent on to the FBI, and no longer in the DPD's possession on the 30th? Perhaps.

But that still doesn't answer the question why NO inventory of these items was created prior to the 30th.

Was Oswald carrying something when arrested that was made to disappear?

Edited March 10, 2013 by Pat Speer

[David Von Pein]

Well, for Pete sake, Pat, that same inventory sheet also shows the bus transfer and Oswald's bracelet -- which are things that were ON OSWALD when he was arrested.

Don't tell me you think the bus transfer was found in Oswald's room too?

[David Von Pein]

Was Oswald carrying something when arrested that was made to disappear from the inventory?

Like what, Pat? Any ideas?

Maybe a Mauser?

Or perhaps the $6500 that he obtained from co-plotters in Mexico?

Is there anything that isn't suspicious to JFK conspiracy theorists?

Edited March 10, 2013 by David Von Pein

[J. Raymond Carroll]

David:

You have replied to Pat

but you seem to be dodging my question:

How do you know that Lee had never previously

left his money with Marina?

[Ian Kingsbury]

They found $13.87 in his room. This suggested that he'd planned on returning.

Why are you misrepresenting the evidence, Pat? There was no money found in Oswald's room on Beckley. The $13.87 was found IN OSWALD'S POCKETS when he was arrested. [see WR, Page 745, below.]

I think it's ironic that certain conspiracy theorists are raking Gary Mack over the coals for making a mistake about the note, and here we have Pat Speer making a similar mistake--claiming some money was found somewhere where it definitely was not. Nice hunk of irony there indeed.

And you and Raymond are totally missing the boat regarding Oswald leaving behind his wedding ring and nearly all his cash ($170.00) in Irving on November 22.

How many times had Lee EVER done such a thing prior to 11/22? Answer: Never.

Doesn't that suggest something to you, Pat/J. Raymond?

"Junie needs new shoes"

[Pat Speer]

My realization that the DPD didn't inventory Oswald's personal items until the 30th has sent me on a bit of a hunting expedition. While looking through the DPD's files, I noticed that 2 Klein's rifle ads supposedly found at the Paine's house were added into the inventory on 12-2, but that a rifle ad was photographed on 11-29.

Is there an earlier list or report somewhere showing the discovery of this Klein's ad?

Or was it, in fact, first "discovered" on 12-2, 4 days after it was first photographed?

[Karl Kinaski]

ITTC, the interview, his Ruby-docu: Mack, a master of intentional slips...Mack explains...yeah, and he knows much, and when he explains there are always some "poison pills" in his explanations regarding the Dallas-tragedy...

KK

Edited March 10, 2013 by Karl Kinaski

[David Von Pein]

Gary Mack...forgot the Waker shooting was in April? I don't think so. And neither should anyone else.

Well then Jim, you should be asking yourself this question:

Did Gary Mack REALLY think he could get away with such a blatant and obvious inaccurate statement about Lee Oswald leaving a "What To Do If I'm Arrested" note for Marina on the morning of 11/22/63 -- when Gary has surely got to know that many sharp-eyed people on Internet forums like this one will surely point out the obvious mistake/lie and call him on it?

Now, Jim, when Gary's quote about the note is put into the above context and framework, do you truly believe that Gary Mack would have deliberately lied about such a note being left by Oswald?

Or could it possibly--just possibly--have merely been an honest mistake (which, btw, has since been corrected at the DMN site)?

I know what Jimbo's answer will likely be. But I thought I'd ask it as kind of a rhetorical question nonetheless.

Edited March 10, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David G. Healy]

Gary Mack...forgot the Waker shooting was in April? I don't think so. And neither should anyone else.

Well then Jim, you should be asking yourself this question:

Did Gary Mack REALLY think he could get away with such a blatant and obvious inaccurate statement about Lee Oswald leaving a "What To Do If I'm Arrested" note for Marina on the morning of 11/22/63 -- when Gary has surely got to know that many sharp-eyed people on Internet forums like this one will surely point out the obvious mistake/lie and call him on it?

Now, Jim, when Gary's quote about the note is put into the above context and framework, do you truly believe that Gary Mack would have deliberately lied about such a note being left by Oswald?

Or could it possibly--just possibly--have merely been an honest mistake (which, btw, has since been corrected at the DMN site)?

I know what Jimbo's answer will likely be. But I thought I'd ask it as kind of a rhetorical question nonetheless.

all lone nut excuses, won't change one simple fact: the WCR report has failed, failed miserably, pure utter nonsense! Even a KFC maven like you can't change that.... Aren't you glad Ben Holmes doesn't post here? LMAO!

Edited March 10, 2013 by David G. Healy

[David Von Pein]

David...you seem to be dodging my question:

How do you know that Lee had never previously left his money with Marina?

I'm glad you brought this up, Raymond. Because I was not entirely correct or clear when I said this in an earlier forum post:

You [Pat Speer] and Raymond are totally missing the boat regarding Oswald leaving behind his wedding ring and nearly all his cash ($170.00) in Irving on November 22.

How many times had Lee EVER done such a thing prior to 11/22? Answer: Never.

What I should have said is this (with the emphasis on the "and" being the crucial point that I didn't stress previously):

Has there ever been another occasion which had Lee Oswald leaving behind most of his money AND his wedding ring prior to him leaving for work?

It's the COMBINATION of "money + wedding ring" that is important, IMO. Because, Ray, you are correct to point out that Lee could very well have left money in that wallet at the Paine house on previous occasions (in addition to November 22).

In fact, the Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald actually verifies that Lee did, in fact, leave money in that wallet on prior occasions (and Marina also testified that Lee left extra money in a wallet while they were living in New Orleans as well):

J. LEE RANKIN -- "Did you usually keep a wallet with money in it at the Paines?"

MARINA OSWALD -- "Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but I never counted it."

MR. RANKIN -- "On the evening of November 21st, do you know how much was in the wallet?"

MRS. OSWALD -- "No. One detail that I remember was that he had asked me whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and I said no, that I hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June and for the children. This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first."

MR. RANKIN -- "Did he take the money from the wallet from time to time?"

MRS. OSWALD -- "No, he generally kept the amount that he needed and put the rest in the wallet. I know that the money that was found there, that you think this was not Lee's money. But I know for sure that this was money that he had earned. He had some money left after his trip to Mexico. Then we received an unemployment compensation check for $33. And then Lee paid only $7 or $8 for his room. And I know how he eats, very little."

--------------------

There is also this from Vince Bugliosi's book:

"Friday morning, before leaving Ruth Paine's house in Irving, Oswald left behind his wedding ring and $170, believed to be virtually all of his money, for Marina, demonstrating that he realized he might never see her again--that is, he might not survive the assassination he was contemplating. Moreover, as he left Marina that morning, Oswald told her to use the money to buy..."anything" else that she felt was necessary for the children. Marina thought this to be strange since Oswald had always been "most frugal" and hardly allowed her to spend any money at all." -- Pages 955-956 of "Reclaiming History" by Vincent T. Bugliosi [sourced from CE1820, at 23 H 479]

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0256a.htm

--------------------

In summary --

Lee Oswald leaving behind the money and his ring doesn't PROVE he shot the President, of course. But the TOTALITY of unusual things he did on November 21 and 22 certainly indicate that Friday, November 22, 1963, was not just an ordinary regular work day for Lee Harvey Oswald.

E.G.:

1.) Visiting his wife at Ruth Paine's house on a THURSDAY instead of his normal FRIDAY.

2.) Leaving Marina $170 and his wedding ring (in tandem) -- which left only approximately $15.10 in Lee's pockets when he left the Paine house on November 22 (and, remember, per Buell Wesley Frazier, Lee was not planning on returning to Irving on Friday night).

3.) Telling Marina to buy "anything" that was needed for the children, which was highly unusual for the penny-pinching Mr. Oswald, according to his wife.

4.) Telling Wesley Frazier he was going to Irving to get some curtain rods at the Paine house, which we know was a lie (based on the preponderance of evidence and testimony that proves it was a lie).

5.) Taking a large paper package into work with him on Nov. 22.

6.) Taking no lunch to work on Nov. 22, which was very unusual (per Buell Frazier's testimony).

And when we add in the evidence of Oswald's guilt that was discovered AFTER the assassination, then what do all of these things suggest--in combination with one another? Do they suggest the actions of an innocent patsy? Or do they suggest the actions of a person who had a one-man plan to murder the President?

Mr. Spence, your witness.

Edited March 11, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David G. Healy]

David...you seem to be dodging my question:

How do you know that Lee had never previously left his money with Marina?

...

Mr. Spence, your witness.

so.... how are things in that cloud called illusion that you inhabit? Comedian (comic, so even Von Pein can understand) isn't your gig, Studley... <sigh>

Edited March 11, 2013 by David G. Healy

[David Von Pein]

David "ZAPRUDER WASN'T ON THE PEDESTAL AT ALL" Healy said:

so.... how are things in that cloud called illusion that you inhabit? Comedian isn't you [sic] gig, Studley... <sigh>

Gosh, you're a strange person.

Edited March 11, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

My latest e-mail conversation with Gary Mack:

Subject: Gary Mack Explains

Date: 3/10/2013 7:08:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

From: Gary Mack

To: David Von Pein

Hi Dave,

Exactly right, folks who think I would make up something wrong to mislead people just make me laugh. I sat for an interview with a News reporter and spoke off the top of my head for well over an hour and got one thing wrong out of many, many topics we discussed. I sent word to him quickly and the story was corrected. What's online is the archive version people will read forever. There may even be a formal correction notice.

As for the property invoice, that was the standard form used for items retrieved with a prisoner. Unfortunately, it was misidentified twenty-five years later when the DPD's Kennedy papers were inventoried by city archivists. Such forms were kept by the property clerk and the listed items would be released to the prisoner later. Prisoners were allowed to keep their wallets but Oswald's bullets were likely withheld along with the revolver police found him trying to fire at them. There's a separate listing for the items found in Oswald's room, though I haven't seen it in years.

Gary

=================================================

Date: 3/10/2013 7:17:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

From: David Von Pein

To: Gary Mack

Thanks, Gary.

Did the reporter just get mixed up and confused about the "note left for Marina" topic? I mean, when you talked about a "note" in your lengthy interview with the Dallas Morning News, were you really referring to the Walker incident from April 1963 and the reporter got mixed up and thought you were referring to 11/22/63 instead?

Anyway, I appreciate your taking the time to write.

Regards,

David Von Pein

=================================================

Date: 3/10/2013 9:09:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

From: Gary Mack

To: David Von Pein

As for the mistake, it was probably mine, but I'm not sure. We did talk about the Walker shooting and I could have mentioned the note then.

BTW, the DPD records probably have a similar property receipt for Ruby, too.

Gary

=================================================

Date: 3/10/2013 9:14:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

From: David Von Pein

To: Gary Mack

Gary,

Thanks for your latest reply.

It just goes to prove that even someone who knows the JFK case backward and forward (like yourself) can sometimes make an inexplicable error about a fact relating to the assassination.

I said that exact same thing to conspiracy theorist Ben Holmes when discussing Vincent Bugliosi's "brain cramp" regarding the "ragged" nature of the wound in JFK's throat (which is a topic that Ben is absolutely positive Bugliosi "lied" about in his book).

Vincent's memory is not exactly what it was many years ago (and Vince even admits that fact himself), and I think a little bit of that failing memory did, on rare occasions, sneak into the pages of his JFK book.

Bottom line -- People are HUMAN. Not machines. They make mistakes and always will as long as we humans roam the Earth.

Best regards,

David Von Pein

Edited March 11, 2013 by David Von Pein

[J. Raymond Carroll]

It's the COMBINATION of "money + wedding ring" that is important, IMO.

Since there was nothing unusual about the money

you are left with the wedding ring.

I recall reading somewhere -it may have been in Marina and Lee-

that he used to take off his wedding ring

when he worked at Jaggers.

This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first."

Mr. Bugliosi suffers from the Gary Mack syndrome.

It was only unusual that he mentioned that first.

Not clear what Marina meant by "first"

but I think she meant it was unusual for him to mention her own needs

before the needs of the children.

3.) Telling Marina to buy "anything" that was needed for the children, which was highly unusual for the penny-pinching Mr. Oswald, according to his wife.

Simply NOT TRUE

as your own quotation from Marina's testimony demonstrates.

Since the evidence does not support your case,

you and Mack and Bugliosi, et al

have to try to DEMONIZE

an innocent man.