Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Robert Prudhomme]

I would like to add that the photo above, used by Stan Dane, was taken from street level, and PM and Frazier would be quite a bit higher than the person with the camera.

I'm not sure how this perspective would affect our view of the difference in height of the two men. Anyone?

Edited April 1, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[James R Gordon]

II have admitted that perspective may well influence the result.

What concerns me is the difference between the top of PM's head to the top of the door. From what I can see the height of the door is approx 7' 6"

He ought to be taller if he is around Oswald's height. However he actually appears to be only 5'

[Thomas Graves]

II have admitted that perspective may well influence the result.

What concerns me is the difference between the top of PM's head to the top of the door. From what I can see the height of the door is approx 7' 6"

He ought to be taller if he is around Oswald's height. However he actually appears to be only 5'

Dear James,

Do you know which step he's standing on?

Respectfully,

--Tommy

[James R Gordon]

No Thomas I do not.

The door is a sliding door and the top step is quite wide.

He appears to be standing on the same level as the woman and the other man.

But the short answer is no I do not. If you can establish that he is not standing on that step, that would make a difference.

Correction. It is not a sliding door.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Another correction, the top step is not that wide. The entrance was renovated years later, and the top step made much wider, but in 1963 the top step was quite narrow.

[James R Gordon]

Robert,

We need to know how wide. Looking at post 1746 PM is right up against the corner of the door frame and wall. That would put him on the top step.

The individual highlighted in the same post would appear to be on the same step. Not sure about the woman.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Post 1746? That was only two posts ago, and it was my post.

[Robert Prudhomme]

From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. BALL. You saw the Presidents car pass?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything after that?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, I heard the shots.
Mr. BALL. Where--what was the source of the sound?
Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Yes, this fellow come to me---Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain

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by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to .think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards."

[James R Gordon]

Quite right Robert,

I was referring to the image attached to that post and my analysis of how PM was standing.

[Vanessa Loney]

Hi Bob - there is a colour picture of the new TSBD landing with the old top landing bit measured. You're right it's quite narrow. And there's one of a police officer standing on the step down from the landing to open the door. I'll see if I can find them again. I can't link though but will get you the locations.

[Chris Davidson]

http://www44.zippyshare.com/v/W9QJYPBu/file.html

James,

You have the same concerns I do.

But, this may help.

The police officer near PM's position is actually one step below the top platform.

Watch the shadow across that top step as the cop steps through it with both feet.

Is it conclusive as a comparison with Darnell, of course not. It's as close as I've been able to find, making the assumption that PM is

closer to the wall,but on the same step as the policeman.

I'm now leaning toward PM being one step down from the top.

chris

[James R Gordon]

Thanks Chris,

Well if PM is indeed one step lower, that takes care of the height issue.

My instinct - looking at that image - is that PM is actually on the top step.

However I will give PM the benefit of the doubt and agree he is one step lower.

I will step out of the discussion and let members return the discussion to other areas of importance regarding PM.

[Brad Milch]

Hi James & all,

I hope this is a good spot to add this thought to the discussion food table: if PM was LHO & was filming when JFK's & LBJ's cars had passed his location, what was holding his attention when the Darnell, Couch & Wiegman camera cars suddenly pull up to the Elm St. divider, stop & capture on film PM standing in the TSBD entrance?

This researcher believes the answer to that question is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW_U8pxOu78

The obvious question following acceptance of the PM = LHO equation that is hanging in the air is: Who's doing the shooting & from where if PM = LHO (regardless if PM is filming or not)?

The Records Building rooftop comes into play in the research of John T. Orr (that he gave to Janet Reno). If either Leroy Blevins Sr. or John T. Orr are correct, we've been looking at the wrong building for shooters the last 51 years.

Something to chew on later in the thread, maybe?

BM

Edited April 1, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Ray Mitcham]

Apologies Ray. It's at jfkassassination forum photo gallery under William Allen Photo's Large on page 4. It's the last one on the page.

I'll try and get my links issues sorted out and insert it.

Thanks, Vanessa. Don't know if you mean this photo. If so the door being opened by the cop, is central and the glass to the left as we look at it, is a fixed partition. (You can see the radiator behind the glass- it wouldn't be there if the partition was a door..)

[Vanessa Loney]

Thanks for posting that Ray.

It's not the one I meant but I'll try and post that tomorrow. I agree that there is a fixed pane to the left of the door. My point about PM is that he didn't appear to be standing on the top landing to me and I thought that was because it would put him in the path of the door as it opens. It's a bit clearer in the other photo with the police officer.

I think Chris has done a great job of showing that PM was indeed on the step down from the landing though.