Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Michael Morrow]

If you look at a better quality frame than that, it becomes obvious that he has his arms folded and he is leaning against the wall. Once you can see that, then what everyone thought was his hand has to be a reflection (there was indeed a heater there) and he becomes more more Oswaldian in build. If what I think is a reflection, did turn out to be his hand, then I think he should be rechristened Boxing Man.

I would have to agree with you. The more I look, the more it seems clear that prayer man is actually folding their arms and leaning to their right onto the wall there.

http://imgur.com/a/WKQbP

[Thomas Graves]

Regarding the Bond #5 photo, Gary Mack says the man in the Brown suit and hat is actually Wiegman.

He also sent a film clip from a Don Cook/KTVT film. Gary said James Darnell is the guy with no hat, with the camera at 1:59 in the film clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_embedded

Dead link. "This video is private."

--Tommy

Edited July 12, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

One thing we do need to be clear on however: if Baker and Truly encountered Oswald by the second-floor lunchroom when and how they said they did, then it's highly unlikely that Prayer Man can be Oswald.

You'll have to explain that Sean.

In my scenario outlined earlier, I see no problem with

Prayer Man following Baker and Truly into the building

from where he took the front stairs

while Truly and Baker were taking the rear stairs.

Interesting theory by Mr. Carroll. Oswald could have gone up to the second floor and encountered Baker and Truly there. But how to explain Baker's describing the guy in the second floor lunch room as weighing 165 pounds when Oswald weighed only about 135 lbs?

--Tommy

[Michael Morrow]

Interesting perspective on Prayer Man that I'd not considered before, and that is we are looking at him at much more of an angle, just as we are with Buell Wesley Frazier. This is from Greg Parker's ROKC. If this somewhat sideways perspective is correct—and if Prayer Man has his arms crossed as some believe he has—then Prayer Man indeed looks even more "Oswaldish." Good work.

Just the other day Pat Speer said he thinks PM looks like a woman(!). It just so happens I'm reviewing the EDF PM thread where Sean Murphy responds to an opinion that PM might be a woman. He says the womanly appearance is due to the fact that PM's sleeves are rolled up and the eye confuses the back of a woman's head with part of Lee's torso. He then points out the woman's lower leg and foot.

In this contrast-enhanced image, I decided to roughly outline what I see as the woman. I may have made the head too small or positioned it too low – it's hard to tell – but based on the lower part of the body, the upper part is definitely there and it blends into Lee's torso, making his body appear to be broader at first glance.

Because I was looking again at this fresh, I also did a rough trace of PM's body. He is not facing directly south, but more toward the easterly direction. We're not looking at him squarely, but at an angle (just like we are with BWF). When you take this into account and consider the presence of horizontal blur due to camera panning, he actually looks thin here. Of course, the hairline is a giveaway to me.

[Michael Morrow]

Does anyone know where the originals of these films showing "prayer man" are stored/who owns the rights to them?

[Greg Parker]

Does anyone know where the originals of these films showing "prayer man" are stored/who owns the rights to them?

Michael, that work is being done behind the scenes. It's a story in itself.

That was one of the reasons for the meme by Stand Dane that was posted here before being removed by overly timorous board leaders.

[Thomas Graves]

Another message from Gary Mack to clarify his position, paraphrased in Purple below:

[begin paraphrase]

Gary is positive of his identification of Jimmy Darnell in the Cook film.

Gary is having second thoughts about the ID of the man in the Brown suit and hat in the Bond #5. Not positive at this point of his ID.

Regarding PM: Gary feels PM is Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald. He also says the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady walking along Elm, so Lovelady must still be on the steps.

[end paraphrase]

A final note: Gary is a member of this forum and may be contacted through the Personal Message feature.

Richard,

I'm sorry, but Gary Mack cannot possibly believe that Prayer Man is Billy Lovelady.

He knows that the Wiegman frames show Prayer Man standing in the shadows beside Lovelady:

And Gary cannot possibly be telling people that Lovelady and Bill Shelley lied outlandishly in their WC testimony.

So can you please give us the exact words Gary used in his message on this matter?

Thanks,

Sean

Does anyone know who created this great Wiegman GIF? Sean Murphy? Gerda Dunckel?

The reason I ask is because I truly believe that (short) Roy Truly and (tall) Ochus Campbell are visible on the extreme far right (no pun intended), close to the car, and that the left side of Jeraldean Reid's face as well as her dark hair can be briefly seen between two women (one of whom is wearing a white blouse) who are standing about six feet to the left of Truly and Campbell.

Note: Truly is standing behind and to the left of Campbell and is most clearly visible before the GIF starts moving.

--Tommy

Edited July 29, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Another message from Gary Mack to clarify his position, paraphrased in Purple below:

[begin paraphrase]

Gary is positive of his identification of Jimmy Darnell in the Cook film.

Gary is having second thoughts about the ID of the man in the Brown suit and hat in the Bond #5. Not positive at this point of his ID.

Regarding PM: Gary feels PM is Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald. He also says the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady walking along Elm, so Lovelady must still be on the steps.

[end paraphrase]

A final note: Gary is a member of this forum and may be contacted through the Personal Message feature.

Richard,

I'm sorry, but Gary Mack cannot possibly believe that Prayer Man is Billy Lovelady.

He knows that the Wiegman frames show Prayer Man standing in the shadows beside Lovelady:

And Gary cannot possibly be telling people that Lovelady and Bill Shelley lied outlandishly in their WC testimony.

So can you please give us the exact words Gary used in his message on this matter?

Thanks,

Sean

Does anyone know who created this great Wiegman GIF? Sean Murphy? Gerda Dunckel?

The reason I ask is because I truly believe that (short) Roy Truly and (tall) Ochus Campbell are visible on the extreme far right (no pun intended), close to the car, and that the left side of Jeraldean Reid's face as well as her dark hair can be briefly seen between two women (one of whom is wearing a white blouse) who are standing about six feet to the left of Truly and Campbell.

Note: Truly is standing behind and to the left of Campbell and is most clearly visible before the GIF starts moving.

--Tommy

If I am right (and I believe I am), then Truly was obviously not standing on the "island" during the assassination, but rather pretty close to where we see him standing in Darnell / Couch when Baker ran past him.

--Tommy

Edited July 29, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

On the day of the assassination, Oswald's supervisor Bill Shelley gave an affidavit in which he mentioned the name of Gloria Calvery (click to enlarge):

The affidavit leaves no room for ambiguity.

Shelley "ran into" Gloria after leaving the front steps of the building and running "across the street to the corner of the park".

By the time of his and Billy Lovelady's April 7 WC testimony, however, the encounter with Gloria has been mysteriously transplanted to the front steps themselves.

Shelley:

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute

...

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Lovelady:

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street.

It couldn't be clearer.

The two men don't run into Gloria out across the street, she now runs up to them and becomes the reason why they leave the steps.

Most bizarrely of all, as we have seen earlier in this thread, both Shelley and Lovelady are now timestamping their departure from the front steps to some 3 minutes after the shooting. Even Ball is taken aback by the extravagance of their over-estimation.

And it in turn yields the wildly implausible timestamp of between 3 and 4 minutes for their looking back from the 'island' and seeing Baker and Truly about to enter the building.

**

It's clear that somebody at some point--somebody other than the WC folk--prevailed upon Shelley and Lovelady to delay their departure from the front steps by several minutes.

But why?

I've already suggested two likely reasons:

1. The police were initially admitting that the Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter happened on the front steps just after the assassination. In order to make this story work, the timeline had to be stretched to minutes rather than seconds: Oswald was 'stopped' on his way out of the building some 3-4 minutes after the shooting. He had time to make his descent from the sixth floor.

2. Billy Lovelady needed to be kept on the steps for a little while to help explain away any Oswaldian images that might show up in photos or films of the TSBD front entrance in the immediate assassination aftermath.

**

We can I think reasonably offer a third reason why the authorities, in the very early part of the 'investigation', would have wanted to distort the Shelley-Lovelady timeline:

Oswald was still alive.

The prospect of his going to trial was still a real one.

And he, as defendant, was going to make a very damaging claim from the dock:

I was out front with Bill Shelley.

How, if Oswald was the sixth-floor shooter, could he have known where exactly Bill Shelley was at the time of the assassination?

How was the prosecution to explain away his description of Shelley (and others) on the steps?

The intended solution was to shift Oswald's sighting of Shelley to several minutes after the assassination.

The front-entrance Baker incident having been transplanted up to the second-floor lunchroom, Oswald would now be said to have spotted Shelley at the front entrance on his (Oswald's) way out of the building.

To this end, Shelley needed to be kept on the front steps just long enough for this story to be plausible.

Three minutes would do it.

**

Shelley's name is not mentioned in the joint Bookhout-Hosty interrogation report, written while Oswald is still alive.

It does however make it into Bookhout's solo report, written after Oswald has been murdered:

"out with Bill Shelley in front" is glossed as a post-lunchroom incident event:

He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.

All that now remains is for Shelley to be asked whether this had ever happened--and for Shelley to answer with an honest 'no'.

**

Thus the quadruple switcheroo:

i) Oswald, in the domino room, sees Jarman & Norman come in the back door of the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed to have eaten his lunch with Jarman & Norman

ii) Oswald claims to have gone up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke shortly before the assassination BECOMES Oswald claimed to have gone up for the coke just after the assassination

iii) Oswald claims to have been eating his lunch and/or drinking the coke out front when the officer came in to the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed the officer came into the second-floor lunchroom just after he had bought his coke

iv) Oswald names Bill Shelley as one of the people he was out front with at the time of the assassination BECOMES Oswald named Bill Shelley as someone he spoke with out front several minutes after the assassination.

That lying b*stard, Oswald.

We have him (literally) dead to rights.

As you discussed Sean, Shelley and Lovelady waiting for 3 minutes on the steps before leaving is a No Go. S and L are gone before Baker gets to the steps. Pauline Sanders said it took Baker 10 seconds to get there after the last shot. Baker and the WC are within a few seconds of Sanders estimate. We also have Couch and Darnell.

My best estimate for the Calvary/Shelley/Lovelady encounter is within a minute of the last shot.

Recently, in preparing a findagrave memorial for Gloria Jean Little Calvery and some of her ancestors by researching her, her ancestors and old news clippings on a genealogy site, I found her wedding announcement in the July 28, 1963 edition of the Grand Prairie News Texan. It states that Bill Shelley was the best man at Gloria Calvery's wedding, July 19,1963. I posted the wedding announcement which includes their wedding photo on her findagrave page.

Given that Calvery's name was first mentioned by none other than (chronically lying) Shelley in his earliest affidavit, and that it was later discovered that he did not run out to the island where he encountered her, but instead ran down the Elm Extension toward the railyard with Lovelady; and given that we now know Shelley was good friends with Calvery or her husband, or both, I now feel maybe this little "story" of Shelley's should be looked at in a new light.

Just some food for thought:

• Did he mention her name thinking she would somehow cover for his post assassination movements and/or timing?
• Or so he could coerce her into it?
• Or did he say he encountered Calvery, immediately after the shots, out on the island, rather than on the steps as she ran behind Baker, up the steps and past himself - and past Prayer Man - and into the building, in order to protect her? By placing her out at the island, it could give her an alibi if someone else said she ran up the steps and passed by PM/LHO on the landing or in the lobby within seconds after the shots.
• And by changing his story - and the timing - drastically in his WC testimony and stating she came up the steps minutes after the shots - it would also assure a story in which she would not have arrived in time to encounter or see PM.

It's worth pondering.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Robert Prudhomme]

On the day of the assassination, Oswald's supervisor Bill Shelley gave an affidavit in which he mentioned the name of Gloria Calvery (click to enlarge):

The affidavit leaves no room for ambiguity.

Shelley "ran into" Gloria after leaving the front steps of the building and running "across the street to the corner of the park".

By the time of his and Billy Lovelady's April 7 WC testimony, however, the encounter with Gloria has been mysteriously transplanted to the front steps themselves.

Shelley:

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute

...

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Lovelady:

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street.

It couldn't be clearer.

The two men don't run into Gloria out across the street, she now runs up to them and becomes the reason why they leave the steps.

Most bizarrely of all, as we have seen earlier in this thread, both Shelley and Lovelady are now timestamping their departure from the front steps to some 3 minutes after the shooting. Even Ball is taken aback by the extravagance of their over-estimation.

And it in turn yields the wildly implausible timestamp of between 3 and 4 minutes for their looking back from the 'island' and seeing Baker and Truly about to enter the building.

**

It's clear that somebody at some point--somebody other than the WC folk--prevailed upon Shelley and Lovelady to delay their departure from the front steps by several minutes.

But why?

I've already suggested two likely reasons:

1. The police were initially admitting that the Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter happened on the front steps just after the assassination. In order to make this story work, the timeline had to be stretched to minutes rather than seconds: Oswald was 'stopped' on his way out of the building some 3-4 minutes after the shooting. He had time to make his descent from the sixth floor.

2. Billy Lovelady needed to be kept on the steps for a little while to help explain away any Oswaldian images that might show up in photos or films of the TSBD front entrance in the immediate assassination aftermath.

**

We can I think reasonably offer a third reason why the authorities, in the very early part of the 'investigation', would have wanted to distort the Shelley-Lovelady timeline:

Oswald was still alive.

The prospect of his going to trial was still a real one.

And he, as defendant, was going to make a very damaging claim from the dock:

I was out front with Bill Shelley.

How, if Oswald was the sixth-floor shooter, could he have known where exactly Bill Shelley was at the time of the assassination?

How was the prosecution to explain away his description of Shelley (and others) on the steps?

The intended solution was to shift Oswald's sighting of Shelley to several minutes after the assassination.

The front-entrance Baker incident having been transplanted up to the second-floor lunchroom, Oswald would now be said to have spotted Shelley at the front entrance on his (Oswald's) way out of the building.

To this end, Shelley needed to be kept on the front steps just long enough for this story to be plausible.

Three minutes would do it.

**

Shelley's name is not mentioned in the joint Bookhout-Hosty interrogation report, written while Oswald is still alive.

It does however make it into Bookhout's solo report, written after Oswald has been murdered:

"out with Bill Shelley in front" is glossed as a post-lunchroom incident event:

He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.

All that now remains is for Shelley to be asked whether this had ever happened--and for Shelley to answer with an honest 'no'.

**

Thus the quadruple switcheroo:

i) Oswald, in the domino room, sees Jarman & Norman come in the back door of the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed to have eaten his lunch with Jarman & Norman

ii) Oswald claims to have gone up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke shortly before the assassination BECOMES Oswald claimed to have gone up for the coke just after the assassination

iii) Oswald claims to have been eating his lunch and/or drinking the coke out front when the officer came in to the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed the officer came into the second-floor lunchroom just after he had bought his coke

iv) Oswald names Bill Shelley as one of the people he was out front with at the time of the assassination BECOMES Oswald named Bill Shelley as someone he spoke with out front several minutes after the assassination.

That lying b*stard, Oswald.

We have him (literally) dead to rights.

As you discussed Sean, Shelley and Lovelady waiting for 3 minutes on the steps before leaving is a No Go. S and L are gone before Baker gets to the steps. Pauline Sanders said it took Baker 10 seconds to get there after the last shot. Baker and the WC are within a few seconds of Sanders estimate. We also have Couch and Darnell.

My best estimate for the Calvary/Shelley/Lovelady encounter is within a minute of the last shot.

Recently, in preparing a findagrave memorial for Gloria Jean Little Calvery and some of her ancestors by researching her, her ancestors and old news clippings on a genealogy site, I found her wedding announcement in the July 28, 1963 edition of the Grand Prairie News Texan. It states that Bill Shelley was the best man at Gloria Calvery's wedding, July 19,1963. I posted the wedding announcement which includes their wedding photo on her findagrave page.

Given that Calvery's name was first mentioned by none other than (chronically lying) Shelley in his earliest affidavit, and that it was later discovered that he did not run out to the island where he encountered her, but instead ran down the Elm Extension toward the railyard with Lovelady; and given that we now know Shelley was good friends with Calvery or her husband, or both, I now feel maybe this little "story" of Shelley's should be looked at in a new light.

Just some food for thought:

• Did he mention her name thinking she would somehow cover for his post assassination movements and/or timing?
• Or so he could coerce her into it?
• Or did he say he encountered Calvery, immediately after the shots, out on the island, rather than on the steps as she ran behind Baker, up the steps and past himself - and past Prayer Man - and into the building, in order to protect her? By placing her out at the island, it could give her an alibi if someone else said she ran up the steps and passed by PM/LHO on the landing or in the lobby within seconds after the shots.
• And by changing his story - and the timing - drastically in his WC testimony and stating she came up the steps minutes after the shots - it would also assure a story in which she would not have arrived in time to encounter or see PM.

It's worth pondering.

Hi Linda

Thanks for posting this post of Sean's. I've never considered before that the reason for Shelley and Lovelady to change their stories by extending their stay on the TSBD steps, following the shots, to 3-4 minutes was to give Oswald enough time to descend from the 6th floor to the front steps, just on the chance Oswald was able to maintain an alibi about being "out in front with Bill Shelley".

Small wonder they were so eager to kill Oswald. I sometimes think this whole thing came very close to blowing up in their faces.

[Greg Parker]

I am posting this as I tend to agree with it 100% and it saves me paraphrasing:

Interesting discussion between Linda and Tommy on EF. It's regarding the need to stretch out the time for Shelly and Lovelace leaving the steps and then looking back to see Truly and Baker going up the steps. The explanations offered (in the Oswald Leaving TSBD? thread) for this make a great deal of sense.

It works for me to confirm my suspicion that the heroic action of Baker running headlong into potential gunplay in the TSBD came as a complete surprise and almost blew everything wide open. I think Truly and the big guy walking around outside were keeping a close eye on the steps and PM for safe keeping until his scheduled departure for the theater, but that an urgent need arose to respond as Baker stopped, parked his bike, and headed for the front door. They would have much preferred to have had the building, the sniper's nest, and the front steps all left to their own devices in saying who was seen, where, when, and by whom but with Baker in the mix, it became ten times more complicated to place LHO where they needed him plus "coordinate" it all with Baker's movements. The idea of a manufactured time delay and Baker's evolving story may point to such a "coordination" effort proving successful, if with a few false starts. After all, it wasn't easy after Baker showed up.

It also suggests that no shots were fired from the snipers nest if the assumption was that it would not be obvious that they came from there, so that no cops would be expected go running into the building the way Baker did. Dang pigeons. Rats with wings is all they are.

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13218499-proof-that-prayer-man-is-oswald-is-holding-his-imperial-reflex-620-camera-?page=last

[Robert Prudhomme]

I am posting this as I tend to agree with it 100% and it saves me paraphrasing:

Interesting discussion between Linda and Tommy on EF. It's regarding the need to stretch out the time for Shelly and Lovelace leaving the steps and then looking back to see Truly and Baker going up the steps. The explanations offered (in the Oswald Leaving TSBD? thread) for this make a great deal of sense.

It works for me to confirm my suspicion that the heroic action of Baker running headlong into potential gunplay in the TSBD came as a complete surprise and almost blew everything wide open. I think Truly and the big guy walking around outside were keeping a close eye on the steps and PM for safe keeping until his scheduled departure for the theater, but that an urgent need arose to respond as Baker stopped, parked his bike, and headed for the front door. They would have much preferred to have had the building, the sniper's nest, and the front steps all left to their own devices in saying who was seen, where, when, and by whom but with Baker in the mix, it became ten times more complicated to place LHO where they needed him plus "coordinate" it all with Baker's movements. The idea of a manufactured time delay and Baker's evolving story may point to such a "coordination" effort proving successful, if with a few false starts. After all, it wasn't easy after Baker showed up.

It also suggests that no shots were fired from the snipers nest if the assumption was that it would not be obvious that they came from there, so that no cops would be expected go running into the building the way Baker did. Dang pigeons. Rats with wings is all they are.

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13218499-proof-that-prayer-man-is-oswald-is-holding-his-imperial-reflex-620-camera-?page=last

Another interesting viewpoint, and an entirely possible scenario.

[Thomas Graves]

We appear to have the following state of play as of the late afternoon/early evening of the assassination:

-Lee Oswald in custody claiming to have been at the front entrance on the first floor during the assassination and to have had a fleeting encounter with a police officer and Mr. Truly as they rushed into the building

-Detective Ed Hicks telling the press about an incident involving Oswald and a cop at the front entrance of the building shortly after the shooting

-Marrion L. Baker on the record as having encountered a man walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building.

So far, not a single reference anywhere--in a single news media report--to a second-floor lunchroom incident.

**

But it gets even worse for the second-floor lunchroom story.

For we now need to add into the mix two startling newspaper reports written on the evening of the assassination.

Both refer to an Oswald sighting on--you've guessed it--the first floor.

**

#1: From the Dallas Morning News, written by Kent Biffle 11/22, published 11/23:

The dissonant element here (dissonant, that is, to my theory) is not "first floor", not "the officer, gun drawn", not the question as to Oswald's being an employee. No, the dissonant element is "storage room". How--on my theory--would the Baker-Oswald encounter have happened in a first-floor storage room? Isn't it supposed to have taken place in the front lobby?

There were in fact two designated "storage rooms" on the TSBD first floor--one beside the domino room near the rear of the building and one just off the front lobby. Obviously the latter is going to arouse our interest in the current context. But the close proximity of the "storage room" to the lobby area doesn't quite explain how it could have become confused in the reporter's mind with "front lobby/vestibule".

In order to grapple with this conundrum, we must move on to the other newspaper report.

**

#2: From the New York Herald Tribune, written 11/22, published 11/23:

Mr. [Ochus V.] Campbell [vice-president of the TSBD] said, "Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone.” Mr Campbell added: "Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since."

There it is again: storage room.

Only this time with three differences:

a ) This is a "small storage room"

b ) We are being given a direct quote from Ochus Campbell, the man we've just seen feature so prominently in the Biffle report

c ) The talk is of "we" having simply seen Oswald--no mention of an officer being involved.

What in the Sam Hill is going on here?

**

How about we do the unthinkable and take at face value what the NY Herald Tribune is telling us, i.e. that Ochus Campbell recalled his and at least other person's having seen Oswald in a small storage room on the first floor?

Campbell had been outside watching the motorcade with two other people: Roy Truly and Jeraldean Reid.

We know that Truly separated from them immediately after the shots and ran into the building after Marrion Baker.

So that leaves Campbell + Jeraldean Reid.

Put the case:

Oswald/Prayer Man, at some point after the shooting, nipped in to the small storage room just off the front lobby.

Ochus Campbell reentered the building around this time accompanied by at least one other person--Jeraldean Reid.

They made their way to the front-of-house stairs in order to go up to the second floor office area.

In order to do so they had to pass the small storage room beside the stairway.

The door was open and they--or one of them--noticed and recognised Lee Oswald in there.

Thinking nothing of it, they proceeded on up to the second floor office area.

**

I'll let Geneva Hine tell us what happened next:

Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?

Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?

Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.

...

Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?

Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who were they?

Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.

Mrs. Reid... and Mr. Campbell.

Now let's re-read that direct quote from Ochus Campbell in the NY Herald Tribune:

Shortly after the shooting we [= I and the person with me] raced back into the building. We [=I and the person with me] had been outside watching the parade. We [i and the person with me] saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor.

**

Mrs. Reid would accompany Roy Truly to DPD HQ the following day and give a statement to the effect that she had seen Oswald--not loitering in a first-floor storage room--but entering the second-floor office area.

Was she pressurised by her two bosses--Ochus and Roy--to do so? I believe we have serious grounds for believing that the poor lady was.

Now if only that pesky Geneva Hine hadn't been upstairs the whole time to ruin the marvelously efficient box-ticking story foisted upon her colleague.

I'm a bit confused here, Sean, with Mr. Campbell's stories. Did he "race" back into the building following the shots or did he "run" towards the grassy knoll?

bumped

[Thomas Graves]

We appear to have the following state of play as of the late afternoon/early evening of the assassination:

-Lee Oswald in custody claiming to have been at the front entrance on the first floor during the assassination and to have had a fleeting encounter with a police officer and Mr. Truly as they rushed into the building

-Detective Ed Hicks telling the press about an incident involving Oswald and a cop at the front entrance of the building shortly after the shooting

-Marrion L. Baker on the record as having encountered a man walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building.

So far, not a single reference anywhere--in a single news media report--to a second-floor lunchroom incident.

**

But it gets even worse for the second-floor lunchroom story.

For we now need to add into the mix two startling newspaper reports written on the evening of the assassination.

Both refer to an Oswald sighting on--you've guessed it--the first floor.

**

#1: From the Dallas Morning News, written by Kent Biffle 11/22, published 11/23:

The dissonant element here (dissonant, that is, to my theory) is not "first floor", not "the officer, gun drawn", not the question as to Oswald's being an employee. No, the dissonant element is "storage room". How--on my theory--would the Baker-Oswald encounter have happened in a first-floor storage room? Isn't it supposed to have taken place in the front lobby?

There were in fact two designated "storage rooms" on the TSBD first floor--one beside the domino room near the rear of the building and one just off the front lobby. Obviously the latter is going to arouse our interest in the current context. But the close proximity of the "storage room" to the lobby area doesn't quite explain how it could have become confused in the reporter's mind with "front lobby/vestibule".

In order to grapple with this conundrum, we must move on to the other newspaper report.

**

#2: From the New York Herald Tribune, written 11/22, published 11/23:

Mr. [Ochus V.] Campbell [vice-president of the TSBD] said, "Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone.” Mr Campbell added: "Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since."

There it is again: storage room.

Only this time with three differences:

a ) This is a "small storage room"

b ) We are being given a direct quote from Ochus Campbell, the man we've just seen feature so prominently in the Biffle report

c ) The talk is of "we" having simply seen Oswald--no mention of an officer being involved.

What in the Sam Hill is going on here?

**

How about we do the unthinkable and take at face value what the NY Herald Tribune is telling us, i.e. that Ochus Campbell recalled his and at least other person's having seen Oswald in a small storage room on the first floor?

Campbell had been outside watching the motorcade with two other people: Roy Truly and Jeraldean Reid.

We know that Truly separated from them immediately after the shots and ran into the building after Marrion Baker.

So that leaves Campbell + Jeraldean Reid.

Put the case:

Oswald/Prayer Man, at some point after the shooting, nipped in to the small storage room just off the front lobby.

Ochus Campbell reentered the building around this time accompanied by at least one other person--Jeraldean Reid.

They made their way to the front-of-house stairs in order to go up to the second floor office area.

In order to do so they had to pass the small storage room beside the stairway.

The door was open and they--or one of them--noticed and recognised Lee Oswald in there.

Thinking nothing of it, they proceeded on up to the second floor office area.

**

I'll let Geneva Hine tell us what happened next:

Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?

Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?

Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.

...

Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?

Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who were they?

Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.

Mrs. Reid... and Mr. Campbell.

Now let's re-read that direct quote from Ochus Campbell in the NY Herald Tribune:

Shortly after the shooting we [= I and the person with me] raced back into the building. We [=I and the person with me] had been outside watching the parade. We [i and the person with me] saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor.

**

Mrs. Reid would accompany Roy Truly to DPD HQ the following day and give a statement to the effect that she had seen Oswald--not loitering in a first-floor storage room--but entering the second-floor office area.

Was she pressurised by her two bosses--Ochus and Roy--to do so? I believe we have serious grounds for believing that the poor lady was.

Now if only that pesky Geneva Hine hadn't been upstairs the whole time to ruin the marvelously efficient box-ticking story foisted upon her colleague.

I'm a bit confused here, Sean, with Mr. Campbell's stories. Did he "race" back into the building following the shots or did he "run" towards the grassy knoll?

bumped

Robert,

As Linda and I have come to believe and have tried to point out in your "Where Was Truly Immediately After the Last Shot?" thread, Truly and Reid are visible in this Darnell frame, and probably (Big Boy?) Campbell, too. Reid (with the big black purse and wearing a light-colored dress or coat) is already walking towards the front entrance; Truly and "Big Boy" start walking in that direction in another second or two. Baker is not visible in this frame (he's hidden behind Stetson Hat Man), but is sprinting in the general direction of the front steps in this frame.

What's fascinating is that Oswald / Prayer Man is still just outside the front door.

EDIT: I just noticed in the super enlargement that Truly has his mouth open as though he's saying something to Baker (behind Stetson Man) or to "Big Boy."

In this context it's important to remember that Campbell told the New York Herald Tribune on 11/22 or 11/23 that "We entered the building shortly after the shooting and saw him in a storage room on the ground floor."

Credit Robin Unger's photo collection on JFK Assassination Forum. Click to super-enlarge.

The question is -- Is "Big Boy" the same person as the big guy who is visible at the very far right of this enhanced clip from Wiegman?

If so, then "Big Boy" is probably O.V. Campbell.

--Tommy

Edited August 3, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Thomas

Here is the biggest puzzle, at least from my POV.

In the still you posted, Baker is behind the Stetson man and, at the speed he is travelling, perhaps 3-4 seconds away from being at the front door of the TSBD, with Truly (and Campbell) very close behind him. Prayer Man, who is assumed to be Oswald, will not see Baker, from his position at the top of the steps, until Baker is actually on the steps.

In the space of two or three seconds, how did Oswald get through the door and into the storage closet?