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William Kelly

Oswald Leaving TSBD?

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17 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Hello Ray, I wasn't headed in that direction at all. I was reading the Mockingbird thread last night, then read your post this morning and I thought the TSBD, intelligence and Mockingbird angle were interesting, if off topic. I generally veer away from photo analysis issues since it gets so contentious. I wouldn't go near an argument about how tall someone was based on anything other than a mugshot with the ruler/tape thing in the pic.

I just bumped a thread, linked it from here with your quote, thinking it might spurn interesting analysis elsewhere. I'll spend some time on that angle and it's a plus when others chime in with their current thoughts as I read.

Cheers,

Michael

:up

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 6:50 AM, Bill Miller said:

Often times a clip is clearer if seen at regular speed instead of inching it along .... can someone show the alleged images of the Oswald looking fellow at their normal speed (possibly looped) ?  I question whether the man is wearing a high shirt collared shirt and suit jacket.

alleged LHO.jpg

Bill,

Yes, it seems to me from this frame that this fellow is wearing a suit and tie.  The face is very common.   It could be anybody.

Ultimately, I don't see enough evidence that anybody has identified Oswald in front of the TSBD.

The closest we have is sworn testimony from Dallas Deputy Roger Craig, who said he saw Oswald running down the Grassy Knoll to rush into a Green Rambler, driven by a dark-skinned man.  Yet this suggests to me that Oswald ran from behind the TSBD, not from the front steps.

Prayer Man cannot be Oswald, if we go by sworn statements of eye-witnesses, all of which deny seeing Oswald on the first floor TSBD.  Also, that figure known as Prayer Man seems too fat to be Oswald, and is wearing a very large shirt.

Again -- DPD Captain Will Fritz and Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes were not eye-witnesses, and their notes from their alleged interviews of Oswald on 11/24/1963 have no chain of evidence -- they were produced only WEEKS after Oswald was killed in the custody of Fritz.  They cannot be safely relied upon to argue that Oswald was with Bill Shelley outside the TSBD.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

The closest we have is sworn testimony from Dallas Deputy Roger Craig, who said he saw Oswald running down the Grassy Knoll to rush into a Green Rambler, driven by a dark-skinned man.  Yet this suggests to me that Oswald ran from behind the TSBD, not from the front steps.

I agree that Lee probably left the building out a rear exit.

 

11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Prayer Man cannot be Oswald, if we go by sworn statements of eye-witnesses, all of which deny seeing Oswald on the first floor TSBD.  Also, that figure known as Prayer Man seems too fat to be Oswald, and is wearing a very large shirt.

I must also agree.

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On 8/17/2013 at 6:26 PM, David Von Pein said:

In this forum thread, once again, we're treated to people using their vivid imaginations to stamp a specific identity on a fuzzy and very indistinct human being seen in a low-quality film/photo.

How in the world can anyone positively say WHO "prayer man" is here? It's impossible.

But when I look at these toggling frames from one of the assassination films, the thing I'm most fascinated by (other than Officer Baker running for the TSBD entrance) is the man in the foreground (wearing the hat). He appears to be tilting his head upward to look at the upper floors of the Depository.

Hmmmm....I wonder why he'd be doing that? Any ideas?

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

I like the speed of this one.

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On 8/22/2013 at 10:25 PM, Robert Prudhomme said:

These are good questions. The best response I can think of is that Truly and Baker would have had to conduct a whirlwind search of all of the floors. Norman and his friends took their time coming down (and it is quite surprising they never met Truly and Baker either coming up or going down) but they were not THAT long in coming down.

Do you think Officer Baker would have rushed to the top of the TSBD only to spend a couple of minutes up there?

Yes,  Because he said he thought the shots had come from up there, didn't he?

--  Tommy :sun

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On 2/21/2017 at 10:49 AM, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

Yes, it seems to me from this frame that this fellow is wearing a suit and tie.  The face is very common.   It could be anybody.

Ultimately, I don't see enough evidence that anybody has identified Oswald in front of the TSBD.

The closest we have is sworn testimony from Dallas Deputy Roger Craig, who said he saw Oswald running down the Grassy Knoll to rush into a Green Rambler, driven by a dark-skinned man.  Yet this suggests to me that Oswald ran from behind the TSBD, not from the front steps.

Prayer Man cannot be Oswald, if we go by sworn statements of eye-witnesses, all of which deny seeing Oswald on the first floor TSBD.  Also, that figure known as Prayer Man seems too fat to be Oswald, and is wearing a very large shirt.

Again -- DPD Captain Will Fritz and Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes were not eye-witnesses, and their notes from their alleged interviews of Oswald on 11/24/1963 have no chain of evidence -- they were produced only WEEKS after Oswald was killed in the custody of Fritz.  They cannot be safely relied upon to argue that Oswald was with Bill Shelley outside the TSBD.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I never considered the girth of the Prayer Man to eliminate him as Oswald since a blurry image may stretch a body but when I look at the images (credit FB Oswald page or Bart Kamp's website) I've attached for comparison , I can't help to think that it's Oswald (and it's not Lovelady), and BWF is to PM's left.  (Incidentally, BWF never said that LHO was next to him but was he asked?  Counsel for the WC were selective in their questioning.  I saw BWF speak at the Lancer Conference in 2015.  He said that Oswald came from around the back of the TSBD along it's north side to the front.)

As far as Fritz' late-arriving notes, not sure if that alone constitutes a chain of evidence problem (like CE 399!), but it sure seems like the issue with those notes is that very little was recorded or omitted (if not destroyed) from the interrogation.  

 20fyjih.jpg 2a8q35e.jpg

Edited by Gerry Simone
grammar + added BWF info

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13 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

I never considered the girth of the Prayer Man to eliminate him as Oswald since a blurry image may stretch a body but when I look at the images (credit FB Oswald page or Bart Kamp's website) I've attached for comparison , I can't help to think that it's Oswald (and it's not Lovelady), and BWF is to PM's left.  (Incidentally, BWF never said that LHO was next to him but was he asked?  Counsel for the WC were selective in their questioning.  I saw BWF speak at the Lancer Conference in 2015.  He said that Oswald came from around the back of the TSBD along it's north side to the front.)

As far as Fritz' late-arriving notes, not sure if that alone constitutes a chain of evidence problem (like CE 399!), but it sure seems like the issue with those notes is that very little was recorded or omitted (if not destroyed) from the interrogation.    

Gerry,

To better decide whether the "blurry" image of Prayer Man was the cause of the apparent wide "girth" of that person, we would require TWO images of "Prayer Man."

I am told by Bill Miller that we do actually have TWO images -- taken moments apart.  I would like to see that shown in blown-up form on this thread.

As for Buell Wesley Frazier (BWF) saying that Oswald exited the TSBD from a rear exit, his description sounded like a dream to me -- there was no communication; he was talking (without words) to some faceless lady at the corner of Houston and Elm, and he looked up to see Oswald walking across Houston from a rear exit.   They did not shout or even wave to each other, and BWF just went back to the TSBD.   It sounds like a dream to me -- and he reported it decades after the JFK shooting.

Another problem I have with BWF's "dream" is that it contradicts the testimony of Deputy Roger Craig -- whom I believe.  Craig saw Oswald running (as I read it) from the west rear exit, down the embankment, into a Green Rambler driven by a dark-skinned man.  I accept that.

As for Fritz' late-arriving notes -- my main problem is that the WC testimony of Holmes, Hosty, Sorrells and Bookout -- and anybody else at Oswald's final meeting -- all agree with Fritz word for word -- as if they sat down to work out what they were going to say.   That's my impression, and that's my conclusion.  This is material evidence that they were all part of the JFK Kill-Team, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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On 4/2/2017 at 8:36 PM, Gerry Simone said:

I never considered the girth of the Prayer Man to eliminate him as Oswald since a blurry image may stretch a body but when I look at the images (credit FB Oswald page or Bart Kamp's website) I've attached for comparison , I can't help to think that it's Oswald (and it's not Lovelady), and BWF is to PM's left.  (Incidentally, BWF never said that LHO was next to him but was he asked?  Counsel for the WC were selective in their questioning.  I saw BWF speak at the Lancer Conference in 2015.  He said that Oswald came from around the back of the TSBD along it's north side to the front.)

As far as Fritz' late-arriving notes, not sure if that alone constitutes a chain of evidence problem (like CE 399!), but it sure seems like the issue with those notes is that very little was recorded or omitted (if not destroyed) from the interrogation.  

 20fyjih.jpg 2a8q35e.jpg

 

 

Mezzanine_085_zpsa8yaxlww.jpg

 

By studying some of the Prayer Man images ... I have felt for some time that he is too big to be Oswald. At the time of the assassination - photos of Lee show him to be exceptionally thin with a very narrow waist. The problem so far has been that it was too difficult to separate Prayer Man from the background, but I think I have been somewhat successful in accomplishing that goal. I would like to show you these various filtered images for you to look at and tell me if you see them as well. None of these versions have altered the outline of Prayer Man.

I am particularly interested in the following observations -

1 -  Prayer Man is cocked at an angle in the corner and is not quite square with the camera.

2 -  That Prayer Man's left side can be seen against the dark background of the glass behind him.

3 -  That Prayer Man's mid-section seems wider than Lee's. That there is no white T-shirt seen, thus the shirt is most likely closed.

4 -  That if Prayer Man in angled in the corner, then he most likely is on the landing and not standing on the steps. That if this is true, then Prayer Man is short in stature.

5 -  That Prayer Man's hairline remains consistent in all the  images.

6 -  That Prayer Man appears to have a deep receding hairline on the right side of his head.

7 -  That this receding hairline when compared to Lee's at the time of the assassination ... that they do not look to be the same. I found that Lee's hairline was fuller on his right side when compared to his left side.

C_zpsq4nng6ox.jpg

C%20copy_zps5frbk5rw.jpg

enhanced%20pm1_zpsisb0pgtd.jpg

A_zps6ge67klr.jpg

 

Prayer Man seems a bit wide in the stomach area whereas Lee Oswald was thin

 

Hairline Views of Lee Oswald:

1931D5BF00000578-0-image-a-44_1445256713

lee_harvey_oswald_zps9cbpqwxe.jpg

www.usnews.com_zpszb1bfrrl.jpeg

lee-harvey-oswald-4_zpspp1xqfho.jpg

12265373203_d9d9fc277d_b_zpswsyik2ni.jpg

hqdefault_zpsvlkgehiw.jpg

 

The hairline of Prayer Man appears to me to recede higher up on the side of his head and is void of hair where Oswald's is not. Furthermore the hair on the top of Prayer Man's head looks fuller than Lee's - especially so in the top front part of the head.

And lastly is the movements of Prayer Man as the parade passed by. As Johnson's car is finishing its turn onto Elm Street - Prayer Man appears to be holding something in both hands. There is a reflective appearance in front of his eye as if he is looking into a view finder. However, once the VP's car has passed, Prayer Man looks to have lowered the object from in front of his face as shown below. While someone has suggested he was drinking a coke ... I find that theory not to be very probable as I have only seen toddlers hold a bottle or glass with both hands when taking a drink. The position of Prayer Man's hands when the object is in front of his face mirrors that of someone holding a camera (left hand) and using the right hand to press the shutter of a camera. I believe the latter scenario to be the more probable.

anigif1_zpsi4vjjlg4.gif

 

It is also worth noting that Billy Lovelady is quite a bit taller than Prayer Man in one frame and lower than Prayer Man when stepping down one step. If Prayer Man is Oswald, then should he not be as tall as Lovelady before Billy moved down a step. And if Prayer Man (who hasn't moved) was standing on the next step down from the landing, then should he and Billy be close to the same height - which they are not.

I am of the opinion that Prayer Man was a short and stocky individual.

Edited by Bill Miller

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11 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Show us the girth!

 

In time you will see the difference in girth just as you saw the difference in hairlines.

Edited by Bill Miller

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You said you could show us all the girth, yapped about it for weeks without any substance to add.

Now the hairline.....keep at it MIller, keep at it....

 

vlcsnap-2015-05-22-19h04m52s177.png

 

vlcsnap-2015-05-22-19h53m26s96.png

 

Now then, tell us all with your 'expert' opinion that this particular hairline cannot be created as seen with Prayer Man in conjunction with the type of blur effect Darnell and why.......

 

No cheap girth cop outs...everyone is already aware that you failed badly

Supply some EVIDENCE!!! No one is interested in what you THINK!

Edited by Bart Kamp

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Here lemme do the work for you, simple motion blur. Sure the head position is not the same and nor is the blur possibly an exact copy of the amount of blur Darnell "applied", but it goes to show that some neck hair  can show as an extension and be interpreted as a longer hair cut. 

Doesn't need a a rocket scientist to point this super simple law of blurring out, everything looks swept, same as in Darnell.

 

Butvlcsnap-2015-05-22-19h04m52s177.jpg

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And the hits kept on coming

Cropped, auto levels applied and turned vertical.

Prayer-Woman-Coiffure.jpg

Now compare that to this

pm-avatar.jpg

That ear looks rather extended as well.....

PM_003704_GIMP_2_8_60_Contrast19201080.j

Hmmmmmm, what do you say Bill Miller?

 

My money is still on Oswald being Prayer Man.

Come back when you are really ready. :)

 

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1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

And the hits kept on coming

Cropped, auto levels applied and turned vertical.

Prayer-Woman-Coiffure.jpg

Now compare that to this

pm-avatar.jpg

That ear looks rather extended as well.....

PM_003704_GIMP_2_8_60_Contrast19201080.j

Hmmmmmm, what do you say Bill Miller?

 

My money is still on Oswald being Prayer Man.

Come back when you are really ready. :)

 

 

Bart,

The image distortion you demonstrate has nothing to do with the method of enhancement that I implemented.

To start with, you first show an image that is grossly distorted with motion blur. The reason for that image not being of any value is that the Darnell image I offered is not distorted with motion blur. If that image was, then everything within the frame would also be blurred in the same manner. All you have done for what ever reason is to show a form of distorted blurring that does not apply to Prayer Man. I too know all about motion blur and its distortion capabilities. (see below)

blur%20effect_zpsgxzxeerv.gif

The next image you offered was of Prayer Man's upper torso. There you have blurred the image and added light to the point of moving and blurring borders that would otherwise be visible if you had not purposely ruined the image. Before you altered the image of Prayer Man ... you had posted that you could see Prayer Man with such clarity that you could tell that he was wearing long sleeves. So why you would distort his image to this extent is anyone's guess because it is something that I did not do.

pm-avatar.jpg

 

I contend that the hairline of Prayer Man recedes high on the right side of his head while Oswald's shows hair in this area.

enhanced%20pm1_zpsmkzsnuvk.jpg lee_harvey_oswald_zpsgpoaj12e.jpg

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On 4/3/2017 at 10:43 AM, Paul Trejo said:

Gerry,

To better decide whether the "blurry" image of Prayer Man was the cause of the apparent wide "girth" of that person, we would require TWO images of "Prayer Man."

I am told by Bill Miller that we do actually have TWO images -- taken moments apart.  I would like to see that shown in blown-up form on this thread.

As for Buell Wesley Frazier (BWF) saying that Oswald exited the TSBD from a rear exit, his description sounded like a dream to me -- there was no communication; he was talking (without words) to some faceless lady at the corner of Houston and Elm, and he looked up to see Oswald walking across Houston from a rear exit.   They did not shout or even wave to each other, and BWF just went back to the TSBD.   It sounds like a dream to me -- and he reported it decades after the JFK shooting.

Another problem I have with BWF's "dream" is that it contradicts the testimony of Deputy Roger Craig -- whom I believe.  Craig saw Oswald running (as I read it) from the west rear exit, down the embankment, into a Green Rambler driven by a dark-skinned man.  I accept that.

As for Fritz' late-arriving notes -- my main problem is that the WC testimony of Holmes, Hosty, Sorrells and Bookout -- and anybody else at Oswald's final meeting -- all agree with Fritz word for word -- as if they sat down to work out what they were going to say.   That's my impression, and that's my conclusion.  This is material evidence that they were all part of the JFK Kill-Team, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

All fair comments Paul, although I still feel that Prayer Man's hairline resembles Oswald's.  I do agree that Fritz and possibly others may have compared notes so to speak.  I will have to re-watch my DVD of Frazier's presentation (he attended with his son and said they were going to put out a book the following spring of 2016 IIRC, but no book is out yet AFAIK).  The audience at Lancer were hoping that he'd make some grand revelation (at least I was) about Oswald's presence out in front, but he only said that he saw Oswald come out later from around Houston street (as if LHO walked from the rear along the north side of the TSBD).  Nobody in the audience discussed Prayer Man but I didn't know much or anything about Prayer Man back in November 2015.  Here's a pic of Frazier from the conference (apologies for blurry pic):2vlk18j.jpg

Edited by Gerry Simone

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