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William Kelly

Oswald Leaving TSBD?

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James Bookhout from 1968 newspaper, found by Steve Roe

21761510.jpg

 

Denis Morisette made the connection with one of our ROKC scans, see below.

dpd-610.jpg

Pic.: Jim Murray Black Star

ROKC scan from the Richard E. Sprague Collection at the National Archives.

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Bill Simpich in State Secret explained it best about Oswald's whereabouts:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter6.html

LHO said he was "out front with Shelley,"  just like he said he was a patsy. Knowing what I know of the whole story, there's really no reason to doubt what he said. Oswald was just a worker drone like the rest of them so it's not like any of them were standing around accounting for everyone's presence or not. Their main focus was to see the parade and with LHO standing back in the shadows, we can't possibly expect 10 people to come up and say, "Yeah he was out there." When I was shooting news in Fountain Square in Cincinnati 25 years ago when Bush visited, do I remember the people who were standing in front of, next to, and behind me? Of course not.

Taking all of this into account, I believe it's Oswald and I think it has the general appearance of him in the film. To be honest, arguing whether he's holding a camera, a cup of coffee, or a box of chocolates is beside the point. We'll never really know with 100% certainty unless the TV station releases a pristine copy of the film from the negative for further analysis.

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On 9/13/2017 at 4:21 PM, Michael Walton said:

LHO said he was "out front with Shelley,"  just like he said he was a patsy.

#1 - this is Fritz claiming weeks later what Oswald said... his notes were not extemporaneous
#2 - as written, he is "out front with Shelley" after the officer with Truly stop him

59c1974796843_FritznoteaboutOswaldoutfrontwithShelley.thumb.jpg.237d03c6fa2efc3f0162a78f8125856b.jpg

 

FBI Agent Bookout offers a slightly different take on that single line scrawled by Fritz well after the fact...  Bookout is describing what he heard Oswald say... Fritz's notes were from memory much later...

59c1961b46b50_Bookoutrefutesout-front-with-shelleytime-smallerforweb.thumb.jpg.bdbaae47adedc8e31ca8fa476282e806.jpg

This is either complete FBI BS to back-up the Fritz Baker Truly story... (which I believe)
or it is accurate...  

Having proven on a great thread here - the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter could not have happened as offered as well as conflicts with Baker's same day affidavit.  Probably never happened at all...

This appears to be an attempt to move "prayerman=oswald" inside the building since it really was Oswald "out with Bill Shelley in front" during the assassination.

I should add that Shelley claims Mr. Viles was on the landing with the rest of the people:

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance? 
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Except Mr. Viles tells us he was somewhere else.....  Looks to me that Shelley switches Viles for Oswald....

thoughts?

59c1995a68aa6_Vilesstatement-notonthestepswithShelley.jpg.ee92a405aab36840b1a0504d38b3e81a.jpg

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I need to add that the questions asked related to this signed statement were were the same for evey one...

They were basically pre-written

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

This appears to be an attempt to move "prayerman=oswald" inside the building since it really was Oswald "out with Bill Shelley in front" during the assassination.

I agree. Although the PM footage is not clear enough to make a crystal clear ID of Oswald, the general shape of him has a lot of potential for it to be him. Another good thing is what Bart did ID'ing as many of where the employees were at the time. It'd be odd if "Joe Schmoe" from down from the bank would have walked two blocks to that shadowy area to watch the President of the US coming by. Of course stranger things have happened but I doubt it.

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10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

#1 - this is Fritz claiming weeks later what Oswald said... his notes were not extemporaneous
#2 - as written, he is "out front with Shelley" after the officer with Truly stop him

59c1974796843_FritznoteaboutOswaldoutfrontwithShelley.thumb.jpg.237d03c6fa2efc3f0162a78f8125856b.jpg

 


David,

It's possible that Fritz's notes indeed WERE written at the time of the questioning. And that the top line ("Claims 2nd Floor Coke when off came in") was written in later when it was decided that Oswald had to be getting a Coke from the machine. The Coke story was needed to explains how Baker noticed that Oswald was in the lunchroom. He could not have seen him through the window, but he could have heard the Coke machine drop the Coke. (This is how Stan Dane explained the need for the coke story, and why it kept changing.)

 

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10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

FBI Agent Bookout offers a slightly different take on that single line scrawled by Fritz well after the fact...  Bookout is describing what he heard Oswald say... Fritz's notes were from memory much later...

59c1961b46b50_Bookoutrefutesout-front-with-shelleytime-smallerforweb.thumb.jpg.bdbaae47adedc8e31ca8fa476282e806.jpg


David,

Note the broken chronology in the above account.

  • First Oswald bought the Coke and had his 2nd floor encounter with Office Baker. (Implying that the shooting had already occurred.)
  • Then Oswald went to the 1st floor and had lunch.
  • He then went outside and stood with Bill Shelley.
  • He then went home.


This of course makes no sense. But if you remove the false Coke and Officer Baker stories, we have this:

  • Oswald went to the 1st floor and had lunch.
  • He then went outside and stood with Bill Shelley.
  • He then went home.


Then the chronology works. I wonder if the Coke story is actually true. I mean, wasn't it Oswald's habit to get a Coke on the 2nd floor on the way down for lunch? (It seems like I've read that.)  If so, the story would be:

  • First Oswald bought a Coke on the second floor.
  • He then went to the 1st floor and had lunch.
  • He then went outside and stood with Bill Shelley.
  • He then went home.

And the chronology still works.

Therefore, the chronology was broken just because of the addition of the fake 2nd floor encounter. If Prayer Man is Oswald, then we know Oswald went out early enough to witness the shooting.

 

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6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


David,

It's possible that Fritz's notes indeed WERE written at the time of the questioning. And that the top line ("Claims 2nd Floor Coke when off came in") was written in later when it was decided that Oswald had to be getting a Coke from the machine. The Coke story was needed to explains how Baker noticed that Oswald was in the lunchroom. He could not have seen him through the window, but he could have heard the Coke machine drop the Coke. (This is how Stan Dane explained the need for the coke story, and why it kept changing.)

 

I'm fairly sure that has been proven false...  what amazes me is the changing of the shirt and pants which remains in the notes...
That absolutely destroys Bledsoe and McWatters and the cab driver...  since they lied... what evidence against the innocent Oswald can be trusted?

A different story is presented by the second set of

notes acquired by the ARRB. The Warren Commission

observed that during Oswald’s various interrogations,

“Captain [Will. Fritz of the homicide and robbery

bureau did most of the questioning, but he kept no

notes and there were no stenographic or tape recordings.”

5 On the other hand, it was clear that Fritz possessed

some sort of notes, for he told the Warren Commission,

while recounting the interrogations, that “...I

kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things I

have made I would have to make several days later...”.6    http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/haappanen-notes.pdf 

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Posted (edited)

I don't know if this youtube clip has been posted in the thread here. I did post it on another forum.

It contains a view from the backside  of the main TSBD front entrance. It shows the view of a guy that appears in a clip on the 1st page of  this thread. It could be this prayer man individual.

At 4:42 a guy with a red checkered shirt. I say it is Billy Lovelady At 5:44 .... same guy. At 6:25 I see a different guy at the lower right step out hands in pockets ..not bald on the back of the head like Lovelady.... Wearing a different shade of long sleeve shirt not reddish but brownish...one like described by both Roy Truly and Officer Baker. I think that guy @ 6:25 is Lee Harvey Oswald .

He is wearing the brown shirt that has been described several times in the case. There is no evidence of a grey jacket. The man seems to look onward with a bit confusion or puzzlement. He does not seem to be in an all fired hurry to depart the area.

If there is playback difficulties...look up the title on youtube and try it there

 

 

Edited by Karl Hilliard

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On 10/1/2017 at 9:24 PM, Karl Hilliard said:

I don't know if this youtube clip has been posted in the thread here. I did post it on another forum.

It contains a view from the backside  of the main TSBD front entrance. It shows the view of a guy that appears in a clip on the 1st page of  this thread. It could be this prayer man individual.

At 4:42 a guy with a red checkered shirt. I say it is Billy Lovelady


Karl,

To me it looks like somebody photoshopped in the the red coloring. It's a B&W film, right?

I see no reason to believe this is Billy Lovelady. According to affidavits and testimony I've read, Lovelady was still on the TSBD steps at that time. Though he did leave shortly thereafter to get a better view... once the president's limo was out of sight from the steps.

 

On 10/1/2017 at 9:24 PM, Karl Hilliard said:

At 5:44.... same guy.


Most believe this to be Billy. (I don't.)

 

On 10/1/2017 at 9:24 PM, Karl Hilliard said:

At 6:25 I see a different guy at the lower right step out hands in pockets ..not bald on the back of the head like Lovelady.... Wearing a different shade of long sleeve shirt not reddish but brownish...one like described by both Roy Truly and Officer Baker. I think that guy @ 6:25 is Lee Harvey Oswald .

 

I suppose that could be Oswald. The evidence for this being:

  • It's a guy.
  • Standing out in front of the TSBD.
  • Who isn't bald.
  • His shirt is consistent with Oswald's, and is open, indicating he is likely wearing a white tee shirt underneath.

But this film was taken quite a while after the shooting, and there were lots of people walking around. So the guy we see could easily be someone other than Oswald. In addition, this guy's hair looks longer than Oswald's on the sides, IMO.

 

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9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


 

To me it looks like somebody photoshopped in the the red coloring. It's a B&W film, right?

 Most believe this to be Billy. (I don't.)

 

 


 

 

 

 

 

The film is washed out a lot. I have color movies I took in the Navy that did that.

Anyway Lovelady....?

JFKlovelady3.jpg

 

JFKlovelady9.jpg

 

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49 minutes ago, Karl Hilliard said:
10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


To me it looks like somebody photoshopped in the the red coloring. It's a B&W film, right?

The film is washed out a lot. I have color movies I took in the Navy that did that.


If so, why is everything washed out expect for the guy's red shirt?

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


If so, why is everything washed out expect for the guy's red shirt?

 

Ever thought what red looks like in a B&W film?

Yes black.!!!

Yet the shirt is more orangy red than full deep red so it would appear slightly more greyish.

How many generations deep are these images?

That shirt is washed out as well.

Let's move on.

Edited by Bart Kamp

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The guy at 6:25 is interesting.  Something about the way he moves, his gesture, reminds me of Oswald.  Hair does look too long in back, or is ruffled from leaning against the wall in the doorway  . . . :)

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Quote

 Hair does look too long in back

Larry Sneed interviewed Mr Roy Lewis [another book order filler at the TSBD at the time] for his book  [No More Silence]....Lewis made the  comment that Oswald 'hated haircuts'.  There was a barber who came forward and stated that Oswald drove to his shop in Irving [?] on occasions maybe every two weeks. As it was determined that Oswald didn't drive, the WC Report ignores this.

As another note on Mr Lewis...the WC changed his testimony and in the report states that "he could not remember anything in Oswald's hands" when he came to work on that day. Roy Lewis actually testified that "he saw nothing in Oswald's hands".

Oswald's 'girlfriend' FWIW...in her book said that Lee would reluctantly go to the barber and walk out  basically unclipped. I found a PDF file from 'Me and Lee". Item # 31

https://books.google.com/books?id=QgQCBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT639&lpg=PT639&dq=lee+oswald's+barber+shop+haircut&source=bl&ots=cPy3p1xCQR&sig=vlPzftnQu1qZD-x3WQLXSmHUogI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJw7uetNfWAhVrx1QKHai-ADMQ6AEIPTAG#v=onepage&q=lee oswald's barber shop haircut&f=false

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c5/a0/15/c5a015f13a723038ed9a7c2d906b29c1.jpg

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