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William Kelly

Oswald Leaving TSBD?

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Robin:

This is what I was able to collate thus far. Shelley's and Sanders's statements are the strongest to point to Stanton's presence on the top landing.

William Shelley testimony for the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly
afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance? 
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Pauline Sanders, FBI report,  3/19/1964:

… I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository…

Pauline Sanders, FBI report, 11/24/1963

“She said she did not see OSWALD during this time and she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the Texas School Book Depository building.”

[AS: if Pauline Sanders stood nearest to the door and Sarah Stanton stood next to her, then Stanton also stood on the top landing.]

 Buell Wesley Frazier, interview for the Sixth Floor Museum, August 27, 2013, 33’50’’:

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?
Mr. Frazier: I did. This was all... I do not know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady come by, a woman came by, and she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President". And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around. And it was just total chaos there. And then from there I started to go down to see if I could find Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, there was so much chaos down there. I said, well, I better go back to work, go back to the steps, so now, and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps, and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up  beside the building. And I was talking to someone, it  was a lady, and I looked to my left, and come walking along the side of the Texas School Book  building was Lee Oswald.

 

Billy Lovelady, Warren Commission testimony:

Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. 
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - Who was with you? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me 
Mr. BALL - What was that last name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton. 
Mr. BALL - What is the first name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley. 
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton. 
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. 

Billy Lovelady, HSCS testimony, 24’50’’ , http://www.prayer-man.com/tag/hsca

Lovelady mentioned Frazier, Shelley, Stanton and some other ladies as standing on steps. Notably, Lovelady stood on the top landing at least during a part of the period when the motorcade was passing in front of the Depository. The three people he named were likely his closest neighbors on steps.

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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1 hour ago, Robin Unger said:

2m80b2p.jpg

This is a useful summary of people on front steps.

 

Maybe the testimony of Joe Molina is relevant as he confirmed the presence of Mrs. Sanders in the top part of the doorway where he also stood.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps. 
Mr. BALL. With whom? 
Mr. MOLINA. Right
next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders. 
Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders. 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out to lunch. 
Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. 

 

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TSBD employee's standing in the doorway.

From witness testimony we know that Maddie Reese and Ruth Dean were standing next to each other on the second step from the bottom.

Avery Davis and Judith McCully were standing next to each other on one of the lower steps.

Davis.jpg

Reese.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger

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Shaw trial Testimony.

Q: Mr. Frazier, do you recall who you were with during the presidential motorcade?
A: Yes, sir, I can. When I was standing there at the top of the stairs I was standing there by a heavyset lady who worked up in our office, her name is Sara, I forget her last name, but she was standing right there beside me when we watched the motorcade.
Q: Do you recall anyone else who may have been with you?
A: Right down in front of me at the bottom of the steps my foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were standing there.

 

bottom of the steps  ?

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While Mr. Frazier would be able to confirm who Prayer Man was because he stood some 2-3 feet away from this person, I am afraid that Mr. Frazier would not clarify the issue. It may be a memory problem or something else.

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5 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

While Mr. Frazier would be able to confirm who Prayer Man was because he stood some 2-3 feet away from this person, I am afraid that Mr. Frazier would not clarify the issue. It may be a memory problem or something else.

Self preservation?

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On 11/19/2017 at 1:42 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

4. The height of the person is about 5'3'' or 63''. The average body height of a woman at their fortieth in 1963 was 63.2'' with the standard error of the mean of 0.1'' .  This data can be read from the National Health Examination Surveys published in  https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad347.pdf  ,  Table 8.

7. The body height of this lady would be appropriate to match Billy Lovelady's description of Sarah Stanton as "heavy set and short" lady.


Great work on the graphics, Andrej.

However, it seems to me that if the height of the woman is 5' 3", that Lovelady's description of her being short would be wrong. Because 5' 3" was average height for women at the time, as you pointed out.

Suppose you bring the woman forward a little bit, and make her, say, 5 ft tall. She would still appear the same in the photo, but would meet Lovelady's description of her being short. And I'll bet her upper body and face will still be in the shade.

Another possibility is that she indeed is of average height but appears to be shorter due to her being heavyset. An optical illusion.

(BTW, I still can't see Prayer Man standing one step down from the top landing. To me he still appears to be back in the corner of the alcove. Sorry.)

 

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3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Great work on the graphics, Andrej.

However, it seems to me that if the height of the woman is 5' 3", that Lovelady's description of her being short would be wrong. Because 5' 3" was average height for women at the time, as you pointed out.

Suppose you bring the woman forward a little bit, and make her, say, 5 ft tall. She would still appear the same in the photo, but would meet Lovelady's description of her being short. And I'll bet her upper body and face will still be in the shade.

Another possibility is that she indeed is of average height but appears to be shorter due to her being heavyset. An optical illusion.

(BTW, I still can't see Prayer Man standing one step down from the top landing. To me he still appears to be back in the corner of the alcove. Sorry.)

 

Thanks, Sandy. The height estimate for the lady in the east corner is provisional, although it is obvious that the person in question is a lady and a short lady. Only when all people are placed in proper locations and the depth of the doorway is eventually decided will the height estimates be final. You are right that moving people forward or backward on the top landing and tilting the doorway one can arrive at estimates differing an inch or so. 

As far as Prayer Man is concerned, you will see him one-foot-down as soon as the model is completed, hopefully before Christmas. 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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Ok, Sandy, since you showed interest, please find here an image just taken from a frying pan. It shows Lovelady (5'8'') at the spot where you and Thomas Graves have found him in Darnell's still. Please note that Lovelady's head must be positioned just under Prayer Man's elbow joint and in a certain distance from the brick column. Lovelady's position can be checked by overlaying the model with Darnell' still. I am not showing an overlay, only a working version of the model, however, you can appreciate that Lovelady's head is about where it is in Darnell' still. If Prayer Man would stand further to the back and closer to the glass window, the distance between his right elbow and Lovelady's head would be larger than it is in Darnell's still. 

Placing all doorway occupants into the doorway is equally important as placing Prayer Man. One figure validates another figure. If all figure locations match the original still, then also the location of Prayer Man can be trusted. If you zoom into the triangulated model of Prayer Man, you may see that his hands are just exposed to the sunlight while the rest of his body (except the left knee) is in the shadow.  

 

 

for_sandy.png?w=768&h=388

 

And one more which is closer to Darnell's view angle.

for_sandy_perspective.png

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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Andrej.

Why is Prayerman's knee bent. ?

Why isn't he standing upright like everyone else. ?

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On 11/18/2017 at 3:18 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

stanton_overlay_90.jpg?w=421&h=417stanton_overlay_80.jpg?w=412&h=408stanton_overlay_70.jpg?w=406&h=402stanton_overlay_50.jpg?w=393&h=389

 

I especially like these. Makes it possible to see what step some people were standing on.

(And of course I like Andrej's model.)

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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9 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Andrej.

Why is Prayerman's knee bent. ?

Why isn't he standing upright like everyone else. ?

Robin:

Interesting questions. I may not be able to answer why is Prayer Man standing  with his left leg bent, however, I can offer answers to the following two questions :

Is there any evidence in Darnell's stills that Prayer Man had his left leg bent in the knee joint?

Did Lee Harvey Oswald,  one of the candidates for being Prayer Man, have a natural habit of placing his body weight on his right foot and push his left foot forwards?

I need to prepare several graphics files to answer these questions which I can do in few days time.

In absence of ready-made graphics I can offer a bit of thought analysis: if Prayer man stood upright with both his legs straight and close to each other (as other people did), he could only stand with both his feet either on the top landing or on the step below (second step). In case of standing on the top landing, he could not measure 5'9''. In such a case, Prayer Man would be about 5'1''-5'2'' to compensate for the height of one step (about 7''). The body height of 5'2'' would allow the top of his head to be at the level of Mr. Frazier's neck/shoulder line which is evidenced in Darnell's still. However, a tiny person of 5'2'' would also have smaller arms and the arms would not be at the exact height as they are in case of a man 5'9'' standing one step below. It would be similar to taking the newly found lady in the east corner of the doorway and fitting her to Prayer Man's body. This small person would not show the same distance between her right elbow and Lovelady's head as we see in Darnell's still. Importantly, the tiny person of 5'2'' would not have her left leg bent.

In case Prayer Man stood with both his feet on the second step, the orientation of his body would not be exactly as we see in Darnell's still. The line of steps would force him to stand parallel with the plane of the glass door, and perpendicular to the western wall, very much similar to Lovelady's figure in my last post. To match the head against the door frame (which crosses Prayer Man's head), Prayer Man would need to be closer to the central railing and he would be fully lit by sunlight. 

Bending of the left leg is the essential component in Prayer Man case. It can be seen maybe better in earlier frames of Darnell when the white lady did not quite cover the leg area. I can understand that a visual analysis of this sort may be disputed because the images are blurred. However, the question can be rephrased differently: how would the particular spot, presumably covered by a bent leg, look if the leg was straight? The answer would be that we should actually see a part of the radiator, and if we do not see the radiator it is because something has obfuscated the view. Indeed, we see a small bit of radiator in Darnell's stills which is reassuring. However, thanks to Prayer Man's bent leg we see a smaller portion of radiator compared to what we would see should he stand with both his legs straight. The images are blurred and I understand that people are reluctant to say either way. Therefore, I will prepare an overlay showing what portion of the radiator would be seen if the view is unimpeded by Prayer Man's leg.

20130908-003559.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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